2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

sorry to post again but also i have ordered some precision ceramic 10 mm bearing balls so soon will get to see what that sounds like.  will make a difference as i think my la platine sits relatively heavy.

i recently acquired a Granito La Platine coming from a highly optimised Garrard 401.  i have a few thoughts:

- La Platine has alot to offer.  absolutely grainless.  absolute resolution. alot more music frankly

- defeating suspension makes for an extraordinary analytical turntable but kills some of the music

- tiniest thread possible quite loose and all speed stability issues are dealt with

- it is a tweakers table.  constantly checking speed, level etc

- i am feeding the motor with a Paul Hynes SR4 Turbo LPS - wow!  huge improvement in speed stability from this - also i finally have an elevated purpose for this LPS i bought many years ago

- Wow and Flutter 0.06/0.02 respectively

- very light oil used.  maybe not light enough.

- i have the Acoustical Systems SDP decoupling platter thing.  don't know any different but seems to be good

- i put the motor on vibration absorbers - helped alot but so did DC conversion

- am thinking of ripping motor out of garrard 401 and using that with LDA regulator as i think Dover has a point re: AC motors.

- having said that the original motor right now sounds fantastic

- i can compare the La Platine to a Garrard 401, a Technics 1210GR and an Audio Note TT3.  the la platine doesn't have the drive of the tt3 or 401.  but it is stable like the 401 and very low noise like the tt3.  great dynamics.  intensely musical/human somehow.  the 401 was my happy place with all of its thunder.  but i think the la platine has some thunder but also it has alot of delicacy and sweetness.  it gently lays the art out and i think it is very interesting/arresting to hear.

@dover i am starting to wonder if the la platine doesn't lose alot of its "musicality" with a more driving motor.  i haven't attached a garrard 401 motor to it (yet) but with the tt3 belt (tight coupling compared to thread) i heard a propulsive sound and frankly it was like i had perverted the la platine into being something other than what it was meant to be.  but my hearing could just be temporarily shot.

@ledoux1238 thanks for your words.

i have had some advice from a very experienced la platine user on WBF (@mtemur) and so things may change.  also i am currently ill and this affects my hearing.  it is just  cold so a day or 2 and it will be fine but this could have impacted what i perceived recently.

in any case to respond to your queries.

1.  i have removed the footers i was using.  i had CMS speaker footers under it.  it sounded extraordinarily measured with footers.  polite.  formal.  stiff.  no fun.  i accept other footers might be a better choice.  i used the CMS speaker footers because they easily adjust up and down being leveraged.  and they sound great with speakers.  i think their maker wouldn't endorse the way i've used them here.  my sense was that when i first played the la platine as i received it from germany and the previous owner with a fr64s and modified denon 103 cart and no tweaks or oil, that it sounded quite sublime.  i'm not sure anything i've done since then has helped.

2.  viscose thread.  have used waxed floss.  have used a thicker "yarn".  have used my tt3 belt as well.  everything sounds like what it is.  so the tt3 belt which is rubberish and flat and wide made the verdier sound alot like the tt3 to my ears (which as i noted at start may not be at their best), i.e sort of thick and unrelenting like its made of plastic.  viscose thread sounds best late at night (2 am) when the power is clean.  music hangs in the air.  one can hear very much the timing characteristics of different belts.  tight rubber one had great drive with a certain elasticity.  with thread i can hear it slowing down as it plays.  this adds to a certain appeal i think but mainly late at night.  opposite of garrard 401 thunder.  waxed floss was good but seemed to heat and then disintegrate a bit.  less romance with floss (could hear its relatively stiffness).  i think i can hear the viscose thread stretch too.  i do find it needs to be somewhat tight the viscose thread for me to make speed.  the floss on the other hand could be almost falling off.  i want to try silk.  but mtemur recommends transrotor belt.  i have ordered that.  i have also ordered EPDM based belts as per a recommendation by another chap on here.  i have bought the gold note deluxe (EPDM) and epdm o-rings from ebay.  we will see what we get.  mtemur says he has speed variation down to one quarter of what i am achieving (i am 0.2 rpm variation at best).

3.  re: motor i may be using wrong terms as i barely know what i am doing.  i opened motor and snipped tx output and connected my LPS 12V DC output to the wires.  so i still get to change my speed the normal way etc.  this did reduce my speed variation.  the sound is good to me, i think i can hear the improvement. but it is less romantic somehow and i wonder if this isn't the same sort of change i got from footers.  that is, more hifi, but not actually better.  my touchstone is linda ronstadt when i first fired up the la platine.  it shocked me how much resolution i could hear but also how much delicate flesh there was on her voice.

re: turntables right now i am wondering if i should keep either the tt3 or 401.  the tt3 is very set and forget.  the 401 is, like the la platine, a tinkerers paradise.  the 401 is more stable than the tt3.  the tt3 is more engaging and beguiling than the 401.  the 401 is monumental when on song.   but having everything carved out in marble for you can get tedious.

I am having some great results with the la platine.  i think it sounds pretty great.  it is a very transparent platform i think.  where i am at is as follows:

- tiny thread being used.  i think this is cotton but not sure.  motor as close as i can get it.  i'm having very good speed stability and i am easily making speed.

- i haven't gone back to footers and i don't think i will.  it's going well on the springs.

- i tried a grade 3 ceramic ball.  it is 10 mm.  turns out the ball i had was 12 mm.  ceramic sounded ceramic.  i've gone back to the steel.

- using very light synthetic oil with the ball in place i measured wow of 0.02% rms and got speed variation down to 0.15 rpm.  it sounds fabulously speed stable.

- in trying the 10 mm dia ball i found my magnets are so weak that the platter sits flush on base.  i have ordered magnets which are very slightly smaller than the existing ones.  i am hoping i can get a little more magnet suspension into the equation

- in running a table that to a significant degree has weight on bearing as i am, i think it sounds that way.  less gossamer and more "plastic".  it honestly sounds alot like the garrard sometimes albeit with alot more music and resolution.

- the table has tonnes of jump/dynamics and bass.  but you do have to potter with it to have it at its best.  my tonearm i am using now is a fr64s.  not having vta adjustment is killing me as each change i make with ball/platter "suspension" implies vta out of whack.  i am sick of getting microscope out.  i do think the platine allows ear adjustment like no other table i have heard.  it is just so pure to what is occurring.  i have ordered a vta adjustment mechanism and can't wait to be able to optimise on the fly so to speak.

i got some new magnets for the la platine.  i thought it would be a tough ask.  it was not.  a company had in stock 180 mm dia 20 mm thick Y30 magnets (ferrite) with 100 mm dia internal "hole".  this made them about 5% smaller kin area than the stock magnets.  i wondered if this would be an issue.

the magnets arrived in like 6 working days.  from singapre.  i bought 2 sets just in case.  i don't often handle powerful magnets and it is a bit of a nightmare.  i was wary of shattering one of them during install.

as it turned out all was well.  the old ones were much easier to remove than the new ones to install.  how they got so weak i will never know.  is this typical?  it doesn't seem to be.  i did my best to centre everything as i know the magnet alignment is core to good performance.

Bob's your uncle and the job was done.  i've now got a levitating platter.  i have it within an oil meniscus of the bearing which i have left in there.  it sounds amazing.  i do have to say the biggest improvement though has been getting a smartractor and doing a proper setup of tonearm/cart.  that change has been staggering (and somewhat embarrassing really).

@dover thankyou - yes i do feel / hear that difference i think.  i have been fettling to wit:

i've got the motor off these soft absorption pads i had it on.  now flat on credenza top.  also i put the la platine on cms footers (i.e. defeated the feet).  i am using thread.  the motor is very close.  shaknspin wow is down to 0.02 RMS.  with the spring feet defeated it adds a certain solidity.  previous i thought this a bit much.  right now with my tonearm setup properly, cart aligned etc it just seems very good.  wide stereo image.  great stability.  great dynamics.  i can hear that the standard feet do better preventing noise coming up into the table (i have a stethoscope for this).  but there is little doubt in my mind it all gets a little "soft".  i mean you can hear it frankly.  it's not bad.  but it just tends to mechanically favour treble and lower volume stuff i think.  what is mind bending is the sheer amount of music in the songs and the total lack of distortion.  i played old favourites and despite not having my best arm/cart/sut combo (or more accurately most expensive arm/cart/sut combo) it has never been better.  

around the corner i expect two different belts to arrive.  actually 3.  one is EPDM from ebay, the other is EPDM from gold ring and then another is the large TRansrotor belt favoured by @mtemur from WBF.  he prefers a belt so i figured it would be good to try it out and it might even help me achieve 45 rpm more easily (my experience is belts do alot better with 45 rpm than string).  33.3 sped stability is now brilliant.  i don't have any issues now that i have mastered motor placement etc.

i was going to try different ball materials but i am now riding above the ball so i don't think i care anymore.  might even try total ball withdrawal.  i do think the denon 103 cart with fr64s arm feels like it was made for this turntable.  the fr64s/103 combo being hyperactive and overreactive and the la platine tending towards the subtle.

one thing to note with my excellent w&f values is that my thread is now at the absolute base of the platter.  i do tend to think this helps.

hi @ledoux1238 yeah it was a big deal for me.  i replaced both.  it just got so easy when i find them online and the post was so quick.  i imagined glue and all sorts of things.  not the case.

the magnets that came in the "collars" had an outer dia of 185 and inner dia of 95 mm (20 mm thick).  the magnets couple to the steel "collars".  to remove the old ones was easier.   less powerful.  somehow i could lever with a cloth and screwdriver and up they would come.  i needed the cloth less i fracture the ferrite.  

installing the new ones which are Y30 ferrite and 180 mm OD and 100 mm ID (20 mm thick) was tricky because very difficult to remove once in the collar.  very strong.  nothing much to grab once they are flat on collar.  i put a magnet in wrong (opposite polarity).  to remove it was very tricky.  i ended up using wideset long handle pliers and a soft cloth.  you just need to get an edge up.  adjusting position also very tricky but very necessary to optimise wobble.  also more powerful magnets made it very tricky to assemble the la platine.  that is putting on top platter assembly, now more powerful magnets will push the bottom assembly out of alignment unless i am very careful.

i have got a factory in china now making me another 2 sets of magnets but these will be Y35 ferrite which is stronger and longer lasting.  i anticipate it will be about 25% stronger and also will have dimensions of 190 mm OD and 89 mm ID so as long as i can get them in, i will really have better magnet coverage in the collar and stronger magnets hence more repulsion in aggregate.

it is dubious whether more repulsion will do anything good for me.  i mean alot of people run the platter just resting on the ball so does it matter if there is a 1 mm gap versus a 10 mm gap versus 20 mm?  i guess the way i see it is i don't anticipate an impact on stability from less bearing being in top platter assembly but i think we could have less noise and less friction.

the platter is attached to a steel collar below and it is that to which the magnet affixes.

the callas mod was all about being able to fine tune location of bearing (vertically).  with the granito i have that adjustment via a bolt beneath the table.  just need long spanners to get to it (size 17).

belts arrived today.  i can't get the platine to spin slow enough now (HA!).  but of course this is simply highlighting that i haven't the correct lubricant.  i am using a very light synthetic lubricant.  it is too light.  as per JC Verdier's design i will now use ROCOL X5 Ultraglide.  This will create a little resistance which will mean i will come into a better place for achieving speeds i need but also the drag obviates stylus drag as per Verdier's design.  i wouldn't be surprised if it makes it a little quieter too as i think it will be slightly dampening.

transrotor belt is skinniest.  gold ring is a mm or 2 thicker.  ebay EPDM belt is grossly thick.  they all seem to achieve the same results at this stage.  Wow no better than 0.04 rms.  speed variation down a little but still about 0.15 rpm absolute.  hope to improve both these numbers with the right lube.  i have 5 kg coming so if anyone needs some, please reach out (or if anyone needs magnets).

@ledoux1238 i must admit i have trouble working out how armco telar 57 lines up with Y30/Y35.  i will say though that Y30 even in the size is used (which is smaller than what could fit in collar) has enough magnetic force to do the job even with my additional 3 kg on there (weight and SDP thing).  having said that, i am keen to try Y35 as more float is something i'd like to see.

based on installing Y30 - even more force will be difficult to manage.  i don't imagine that JC Verdier design needs much more than Y30 based on my experience.  it seems a good match for the original.  i had heard from the gentleman i bought my table from that the original magnets came from Focal drivers (a 38 cm driver from the 70s as i recall?).

@ledoux1238 one day i will get to the mats.  right now i have a SDP acrylic top on the platter that adds about 2 inches.  so that's my mat.  i don't want to brag but i do have alot of mats (spec, vertere, copper) so one day i will give it a go.  mtemur from WBF says no mat for the win so you are in good company.

i have now given my armboards to a man so they can be drilled for my kuzma arm and so i can add the vta collar to my fr64s.  so i am back on the audio note tt3 for now.  

get a granito / vintage heritage la platine and tell us the difference with your classic la platine.  there is one on sale on audio-markt!  it looks brilliant.

yes with the Audio Note turntables we have the reference, the half reference and then the tt3 (and then others with less motors below that).  as i understand it the ref and half ref are licensed from voyd whilst the tt3 is AN's own creation (albeit heavily influenced by voyd).  i have never heard a ref or half ref.

with the tt3 we then have 4 different levels of motor.  i have a psu3.  makes a huge difference.  to a very big extent in the tt3 we are listening to the motor.  i have heard the psu4.  i found the difference is shocking (but i frequently seem to lack proportion).

i feel with the AN tt3 it has less atmosphere than the la platine.  i guess the noise is higher (3 motors).  the drive is excellent.  the usability is excellent.  you turn it on.  it hits perfect speed.  the end.  when i measure wow and flutter the numbers are much worse on the tt3.  one can hear this a bit i think in that the la platine is very "solid" (when on fixed footers more so) and massive (finely grained).  the tt3 is more like a little boat on the big ocean.  the 401 sounds like a big modern aircraft carrier (total stability).  the platine inbetween but on fixed feet more 401 than tt3.

finally the tt3 doesn't allow different arms which is simplifying but a little limiting for some perhaps.

just to add, going from thread on la platine to belt, and going from more bearing to no bearing, one can cover a whole spectrum of sound right there.  the loose thread with magnetic levitation only can sound delicate, ethereal and more biased to higher freq. a tight elastic belt with ball bearing taking weight can sound quite close to a 401 (more plastic, more relentless, thicker).

what table are you besotted with ledoux?

i am now using a transrotor large belt and i have the rocol x5 ultraglide in place.  with the belt and without the rocol i was too fast!

now i am right on the money.

wow and flutter gets worse less tight the belt is.  this tells me magnet alignment is not perfect.  having said that i am down at 0.06 % RMS Wow so it is very good.  if i get the belt tight i can get it down to 0.02.  but i know that will sound more "idler" like and i don't want that.

unfortunately my armboards are being drilled and so actually hearing the la platine is off for now.  very keen to hear it with the safir.  i have a new to me ART9 cart that i will try out.  

i am back on its native suspension.  it shocks me how good it is at not allowing the motor noise into the la platine.  the motor is sitting on its own base which is heavy plate steel.  

currently i am floating with no ball contact so we will see how that goes.  

well i finally have the safir playing on the la platine and of course i am now:

- floating in mid air with no ball bearing contact

- lubed up with Rocol X5

- transrotor skinny belt

- copper "mat"

I have an ART9 mounted and am using a very affordable SUT in the Audio Technica AT670T.

It sounds absolutely tremendous.  The belt is very light/loose.  It is music coming from the black.  It sounds very odd in some way in that there aren't any detectable mechanical artefacts in the sound.  I listened to Royal Trux Cats and Dogs last night and it was perfect.  A dream session for an audiophile.  A fave record turned into a sustained artistic event.  

Soon enough I might try footers again as well as the linen thread I have coming.  But I will give it a while because what I'm hearing is very good and I've been without it for weeks waiting for armboards.

when fremer reviewed the safir i recall he used a variety of carts that wouldn't traditionally work with something of such high eff. mass.  i can't say i see any issues in use.  i agree it seems likely that another cart might do even better.  i have a used lyra delos i will try.  but the art9/safir combo seems extremely good.

i think the lack of artefact is a "sense" that is to a large extent contributed by the la platine.  for example one doesn't hear the drive of the tt3 in it.  i will need to hear the setup more to try and locate any specific contribution from Safir relative to others.  definitely an aspect of its performance is bass and a lack of distortion.

i caved and have applied thread already.  the transrotor is round and skinny and was recommended by an experienced la platine user.  however i had to try thread (not the "right" thread, but instead synthetic sewing thread that is very skinny).  it sounds even better with the skinny thread i think.  soon i will have thread that is closer to the originally endorsed "Verdier" thread and i will give that a shot.  

last night i listened to Princess Chelsea's latest record (NZ band - "everything is going to be alright").  it felt like i could hear everything without any distortion.  clean and clear bass.  backing vocals that are just tiny touches.  i had atmosphere but no sterility. the art9 is a great cartridge i think and the very cheap AT 670T SUT i bought to use with it is unbelievable.  $400 aud and it sounds flawless.  it even can be used with a range of carts.  i look forward to comparing it to a Silvercore sut i have coming but for now, it doesn't feel like it is doing anything wrong.

i  do think floppiness can be an issue with the verdier.  so with original feet on i am trying to not introduce other forms of floppiness.  i tend to think the synthetic thread is slightly stretchy but not as stretchy as a rubber belt.  rubber belt under tension sounded a bit "meh" and rubber belt with no tension was better but not as good as skinny thread with minor amount of tension.  

i will also see how the "EPDM" belts fair before i come to any final conclusions about preferences.  i have a gold ring belt that is thicker than transrotor but made of epdm and i know from my work with a garrard 401 that the kind of rubber makes a difference.  silicon being about the worst and Viton being one of best.  epdm i have less experience with but others have highly recommended it.

i agree, alot of Safir plus La Platine action.  i asked one user what cart he recommended with the Safir and he said the Aidas Mammoth.  unfortunately that cart costs more than i paid for the la platine!

i have defeated suspension again.  it sounds good.

one thing re: thread/belts.  for me, i almost am too fast with the belts (too fast for 45 rpm, lowest i can achieve is 46).  with tiny synthetic thread i am just making 33.3 but can't get within cooee of 45 rpm.  so i need the thread to solve that issue really (i did previously trial floss and hence my confidence).

it does seem the la platine gets "better" the more squishiness we can pull out of it.  so stiff feet, stiff base for motor, less elastic belt material.  leaving the only squishiness to the magnetic bearing.

speculating but a reason the safir might be a good fit with la platine is because it is very good at extracting bass which hasn't been a reputed strength of la platine.

thread versus rubber belt, the difference to me is the slightest amount more air in the thread presentation.  

ok rec'd thread today.  this is linen thread with light waxing so a good match for Verdier's recommendation i believe.  instantly the speed was perfect for both 33 and 45.  as in i could dial in the speed and be around half way in range.  that felt good.  

sound wise i thought it was instantly better.  the skinny thread i use is slightly elastic and this linen thread is not elastic at all.  

so count me as another vote for linen thread!

it is in extremely poor taste for me to be making a series of posts however:

1.  platine users aren't thick on the trees

2.  i just tried a new cart last night and i just have to say how thrilling it was with the la platine/safir combo.  

a second hand lyra delos i picked up.  magical!  dynamic.  fleshy.  detailed.  perfect fit with my tube system.  really spiced things up!  platine sounding like nothing has ever sounded before.  so seamless.  not hifi but pure and fun and beautiful.  i've got footers on motor, no footers for table and loving the thread!

yes i was inspired by Herb to be sure.  it is really him that's gotten me into a vinyl switch it up mindset rather than "ultimate system" type thinking.

i am using a cheap SUT with the Delos that i picked up for 375 USD.  total expenditure something like 650 USD for cart and SUT.  it is a once in blue moon event but cheap thrills in high end audio!

i have a silvercore SUT coming in 1:10 so we will see if that improves on the 1:14 winding i am currently using via AT 670T

delos with silvercore is a home run.  early days but sounds great.

i have a Audio Note M6 as my RIAA.  it plugs into my integrated amp.

things almost perfect with my turntable setup.  only thought left now is toward an isolating base.  would radically increase expense of project but :

1. i have a footfall issue.  even walking away after dropping needle i might make a skip happen.  not good.

2. everyone says the la platine really does well on a platform like vibraplane etc.  

i guess i would have the la platine on platform and motor not on the platform.  

the main features i find of the la platine that might distinguish it are:

- continuity - no feeling of effort or mechanical intrusion.  with the 401 for example or tt3, one can hear the intense "push push" of the setup. this is nice in some ways. but it seems more pure when it is not there

- silence - small sounds and large sounds occur on a very soundless back ground.  it is as some say "just the music"

i do not have any speed issues nor any w/f issues.  i am on thread and it is excellent.  i might give it one more crack with the cms footers.

i have a silver 1:10.  i think it is the pro version.  i wanted the largest silver cans i could get my hands on.  it wasn't cheap unfortunately.  

what i like is to listen to other gear so i can get a sense of how good the good gear is.  i feel it helps with system insights and comprehension.  plus fun.

the silvercore keeps getting better.  very dynamic, very quiet, on solid state it would sound dry i think or crisp - but that's probably just as it burns in.  it is a great match with the delos.

i can well imagine good carts and less decorated gear.  i can also well imagine a relatively cheap tube based RIAA doing a very good job as i did have an Abbas EL84 riaa before the m6.  having said that, the m6 is kind of amazing when compared to the Abbas, so you do get something for your money.

i am sure if i had it all over again there are better ways to skin the cat.

i have an iogold/s9 combo and i eventually the iogold will be repaired and i will get to listen to that in context of say silvercore/delos.  it will be interesting as the iogold/s9 setup is around 7 times more expensive.  i did previously listen to the s9/iogold combo but not when my la platine was so sorted and also prior to understanding how critical setup of cart was and so without benefit of analog magik and smartractor.

@ledoux1238 i have gone overboard it is true.  a big positive is i have learnt a bit and become comfortable working with a cart, tonearm and table.  i am yet to crack azimuth if i am honest.  i struggle getting vision on it even with a microscope (much easier for use with vta from side).  when i use analog magik i seem to be only really checking zenith, which it is fantastic for.  i don't find azimuth adjustment approachable on the kuzma safir.  it would be much easier to attempt on the AS arche headshell i have but currently obsessed with the Safir.

if you have any tips for me i am all ears.

aha!  thank you very much for your insight here.  i think i knew this once but it was before i was ready to cope with another variable and i had well and truly forgotten.  just y'day i saw the arrow on the safir and wondered as to what the heck it was for.  thank you very much.  this is very pleasing.  i also was not aware that cross-talk related to this.  i had another cart, an ART9, with terrible cross-talk numbers so i will see if i can do anything about that.  now i can do something with analog magik besides zenith.

i really appreciate you pointing this out.

@ledoux1238 wow!  this really made a difference.  the Delos i have was v cheap because the cantilever is askew.  it needed an azimuth adjustment more than most carts would perhaps.  the difference is profound.  when you said "The one parameter that has the most effect on sound is azimuth" i thought there might be some hyperbole.  to anyone reading it is not hyperbole.  it is, shockingly, fact.  a significant progression for me.  thankyou @ledoux1238 !