A recent encounter with a JC Verdier dealer as well as a recent Audiogon discussion thread led to the start of this thread. He was in my house updating my La Platine which had been in storage for ten years with thread and oil. While he has high regards for the deck, his newer clients nevertheless prefer a Techdas iii than an 'old' La Platine. Given the proliferation of expensive decks in the past dozen years, La Platine has become very much under-appreciated.
It's clear to me that the influence of the La Platine is everywhere to be found. Specifically, the magnetic suspension system that was employed 30+ years ago. Even SOTA offers their newer decks with mag. lev. features. And if you read this review: https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf, the Continuum Caliburn uses the same concept, which was not acknowledged in Fremer's review, albeit with more sophisticated , and expensive, execution.
It is also clear to me that there is much misunderstanding of the workings of the La Platine. I for one have contributed to this. The motor of the La Platine, for example, has been much maligned. The thread drive is another aspect of the turntable that have been described as inferior. With regard to the motor and thread drive, I have been set straight by Chris @ct0517 and Lyubomir @lbelchev. Experimenting with the different types of silk threads, the tightness to the platter and a renewed understanding of the soundness of the Philips motor have been rewarded with better dynamics and transparency.
The funny thing is that during the past two years of re-engagement with audio, I have questioned ownership of every components in my arsenal except the La Platine. It has always been a keeper. I wonder if La Platine owners would contribute to celebrating this 'old' deck with tales, advice, and insights?
Regarding my pre-amp, MFA Lumi, situation, I hope it will not cause a distraction from the topic at hand. However, it is integral to the analog chain, and I could seriously use your help / opinion, so please bear with me. I have Lumi A1 or A2, with two transformers in the PSU as opposed to four in the B-2c series. In my correspondence with Scott Frankland, he regarded the B series as the 'most advanced'.
@vuckovic '...Lumi is still the world class preamp!...' The high regard given to the Lumi, I believe, is primarily for its phono performance. With the La Platine / Trans- Fi / ZYX entry level cartridge combo, the soundstage bleeds right out of the sides of the ET LFT-8b's. The depth, layering, and 3 dimensionality ..etc are quite something, hence my push on the TT front to get more. Instinctively, I know the Lumi will not only keep step, but is driving the herd.
While I only listen to cds' 20% of the time, the listening experience is very different. Not unpleasant, but everything is scaled down, the 'stage is restricted, resolution is down, and I am straining to hear the ambience of the venue...etc. The thinking was that the culprit lies with the vintage Wadia 16 until about a month ago. As the Lumi was sent for repairs, I decided to plug the Wadia directly into the Von Gaylords Nirvana mono's. With its own digital volume control, I was listening to a more resolved, more transparent, and slightly larger soundstage presentation. It seems clear that the Lumi line stage was the issue.
I wonder if your audio buddies or @lewm can confirm the disparity between the line and phono stages in the Lumi? If not, then I really need to get it fixed by Scott!!
@lewm What have you moved on to after the Lumi and why the regret?
For now, I am leaning towards using The Lumi strictly as a phono preamp through the Lightspeed Passive Attenuator. In other word, keep the goodness of Lumi and optimize elsewhere. This passive device is proving to be quite something and a subject for another post. @lewm I think you are skeptical of this one.
@vuckovic and @junk981 In corresponding to Thom Mackris of Galibier Design, he advised to defeat the suspension of the La Platine in order to use the tape drive with his motor. Since you are both using tape drive, is there a problem with the tape staying on the pulley?
@mijostyn Thanks for your advice. I have moved onto a Trans- Fi Terminator Linear tracking arm from the SME V. As mentioned elsewhere, the LT arm is far superior.
I do not use original suspension - you can read my first post in this discussion. I am not surprised you got more transparent sound with Lightspeed attenuator - it just shows you potential of your system. Lumi has vintage sound - great dynamics, body and texture. On other side it lacks ultimate transparency, details, frequency extension and see- trough soundstage - those were the reasons I did not want to go that route. Finding something between is very challenging.... If you are happy with Lightspeed's dynamic and body in your system - you have winner combination...
@vuckovic Would you mind sharing the dimensions for the 1/2 inch tape drive pulley for the stock motor spindle? I've got stacks of half inch audio tape in my home. Do you just pull off the standard brass V pulley and push the replacement delrin one onto the motor spindle? Thanks Charlie
Hi Ledoux, I am now using three different phono stages all of which are full function preamplifiers. These include atma-sphere MP1, Manley Steelhead, and Raul‘s phonolinepreamp. The first is all tubes. The second is a hybrid of transistors and tubes. And of course Raul‘s phonolinepreamp is all solid state. Truth be told I prefer all 3 of these vs the Lumi. I sold the luminescence way back when I first purchased the MP1. The reason I regret selling the luminescence is purely related to my high regard for it as a classic piece of audio design. But you can’t keep everything.
if you really want to insert a passive line stage in place of the line level output stage of the luminescence, you need to make sure in advance that you will have enough gain and that the impedance matching between your luminescence and the passive line stage and between the passive line stage and your amplifier are acceptable. I would guess that the line stage of the luminescence adds 15 to 20 DB of gain to the signal it receives from the phono section. Can you live without that?
Hi Lew, '...The reason I regret selling the luminescence is purely related to my high regard for it as a classic piece of audio design. But you can’t keep everything. ...'
Thanks for that clarification. I think it expresses my sentiment quite aptly. The Lumi has been a treasured piece of classic. I guess I am moving on with age and in the process of pursuing other sonic priorities.
' .
I would guess that the line stage of the luminescence adds 15 to 20 DB of gain to the signal it receives from the phono section. Can you live without that? '
Hmmm......George recommends 60 db min and 500 ohm max from source. The MC cartridge in use is .48 mv. I may be okay, but will try when the Lumi returns.
@vuckovic I think both you and Lew have made very similar points about the Lumi, i.e. vintage sound but may not be the ultimate sonic expression in many areas. I had suspected that to be the case, and now confirmed by those who know and my own listening experience. My regard for the Luminescence is quite intact, nevertheless.
@mijostyn I will observe once vinyl playback is in operation.
With regard to the La Platine or La Nouvelle, does anyone recall any other TT where the drive system, the motor, and the plinth suspension are all subject to tweaks and experimentation? Clearly, those who expound that the original thread drive, motor, and suspension have enough integrity for continued use would frown upon the tape drive, after market motor, and suspension-less plinth crowd. Between the purist, the agnostics, and the undecided, I fall into the third group.
Having experimented with various threads and belts, and concluding on the superiority of thread, tape drive enthusiasts appears, claiming improved sonics no less. The aftermarket motor crowd were well documented before starting this post. But the suspension-defeat methodology was new. @vuckovic I don't know how I missed your use of the Stillpoints on your first post.
Seriously, can anyone think of another turntable system that is so 'open sourced'? Somehow the SP-10's or the Denon DP's are not quite the same. The drive systems are refurbished and used as intended. I find the 'rainbow' spectrum of JC Verdier turntable owners to be quite fascinating!
@topoxforddoc Yes, you just place Delrin pulley on motor spindle . Be sure to have small screw on the bottom to tight it to spindle. Pulley should have convex sides and my diameter in the center is 10 mm. On the top is 8mm. You might go to center with 12mm. I forgot original dimensions. It is very important because smaller or bigger R can prevent you to get right speed with motor range. I can not measure right height but from the top of the motor metal housing to top of the pulley I have 23mm. You need longer for the space bellow metal housing. You can make flat pulley - but it is very difficult to put tape on it - leveling of plinth and platter should be perfect with motor pulley.
1. Are you maintaining the pneumatic suspension on the plinth while using the tape drive? 2. What kind of tape are you using? 3. Have you tried shortening the tape drive with a closer motor to plinth distance? 4. Keeping the tape on the very lower portion of the platter seems to be the consensus regardless of drive material. 5. I notice that you have the SS Strain Gauge on the Thales. Have you tried the SS on the Schroeder Ref. ?
@dracule1 I think Ming Su is still the US dealer for JC Verdier. I bought mine in 2003 from Ming through Audiogon. Ming also reps Goto Horn speakers from Japan and his contact is : info@goto-unit.com.
@dracule1 It's a bit of a mystery. On a Stereo Times' review of the La Nouvelle sometime after 2014, Sorasound is listed as the US distributor. However, the La Platine does not show up on Sorasound's web-site. And I afraid I no longer have Ming's contact.
Maybe writing directly to France is the best bet? Would someone in the know chime in?
Ming is a friend of mine. He lives in Northern Virginia. I've heard his physically enormous system many times. I have his contact info, but maybe I should not divulge it publicly. If you can figure out how to contact me privately via Audiogon, I will share his email address.
I’ve tested wow&flutter of lots of high end turntables (each around 20000-50000 USD) and lots of vintage direct drives in the last few years. I used Analogmagik software mainly for the tests but I also used WFGUI, platterspeed and RPM. all of them have different standards and gives different readings but the best and professional one is Analogmagik software with dedicated test record. I also tested some of the test records and found out Analog Productions test record is not very accurate (not related with subject but especially it is not accurate on azimuth either) on the other hand Analogmagik and Ortofon test records are very accurate. I don’t know how Hi-Fi News test record performs. anyway I ended up using Analogmagik software and AES standard. according to my test results most high end decks measure around %0.07-0.09 (AES). vintage high quality direct drive decks measure around %0.08-%01 (AES). La Platine Verdier turntables in good condition measure %0.05-0.06 (AES), better than all of the decks I’ve tested including top models of Techdas, SME, Da Vinci, Thorens, Kronos, Thales, Transrotor etc. one La Platine Verdier even measured at %0.0460 but it’s lower and upper magnets are centered inside their magnetic rings and perfectly aligned to face each other. it uses standard Philips motor and Transrotor large belt. motor is placed as close as possible to platter. additionally platter might be statically balanced to further improve this already good measurement.
speed consistency is another issue but you can never get precise readings with strobe discs or other stuff like that. you need Analogmagik or platterspeed kind of program and test record. RPM is also good but needs calibrating with a test record. the main problem with speed consistency is temperature changes in the bearing. when temperature changes viscosity of oil in the bearing changes and so the brake force. if your turntable has an encoder or ac motor the control mechanism will readjust motor’s speed. if don’t you need to check it with a basic tool such as RPM for every 2 hours of playing. in order to get exact speed first of all you need to adjust it with a precise tool. after obtaining exact speed then you can use simple tools to correct it when needed.
The AnologMagik kit has been reported quite extensively by our local audio community. Up til now, I had the mistaken impression that cartridge alignment was its only use. Rereading a local blog, track 3 on the test record does indeed deal with TT speed as well as wow / flutter. In a way, your finding should not be that much of a surprise? The magnetic bearing is La Platine’s main feature. If the table is leveled, the bearing tolerances correctly executed, then two spinning magnets should maintain ‘absolute’ horizontality, or at least provide the least deviation from horizontal. That was my simple logic when I first set eyes on the TT. And now your result bears it out.
You mentioned other TT such as Techdas. In my recent fiddling with my air bearing tonearm, I have found the control of air fluctuations is a real issue. Adding additional surge tanks, help enormously to smooth out air fluctuations, improve air flow and henc SQ. An air bearing TT like the the Techdas might not offer the best wow / flutter performance as the control of air pressure / fluctuation is essential but a bit more work than magnets, I would think.
I have a few questions:
1. On the La Platine that measured .046%, you mentioned that the magnets are centered and perfectly aligned. Aren’t all La Platine like that? And the pneumatic suspension has been defeated with a static suspension? Sorry, but I don’t understand the nature of that particular La Platine.
2. Regarding speed stability, are you in favor of a servo speed controller, like the Roadrunner ?
3. This question is an aside. I am wondering about the use AnologMagik to optimize SRA / VTA. I have fallen into the camp where VTA is adjusted for every record played as the Trans Fi Terminator allows for VTA on the fly. Adjustments on the AnalogMagik is a one time thing. How does it account for record thickness, hence variations in SRA?
Adding additional surge tanks, help enormously to smooth out air fluctuations, improve air flow and hence SQ.
even the big ones come with surge tanks don’t measure better than %0.07 with Analogmagik.
@ledoux1238
1. On the La Platine that measured .046%, you mentioned that the magnets are centered and perfectly aligned. Aren’t all La Platine like that? And the pneumatic suspension has been defeated with a static suspension?
yes La Platine comes as magnets aligned but magnets are not screwed or fixed. they can move during transportation or removing and installing platter. magnets need to be moved inside magnetic ring/case in order to perfectly center. additionally lower magnet should be placed on the plinth at the exact center with spindle. in order to achieve this space between inner magnetic ring and aluminum base that holds spindle must be equal on all sides.
Sorry, but I don’t understand the nature of that particular La Platine.
it was a regular La Platine but carefully aligned.
@ledoux1238
2. Regarding speed stability, are you in favor of a servo speed controller, like the Roadrunner ?
No I’m in favor of basic DC motor controllers and DC motors. all servo controllers make some kind of cogging effect. I don’t know if the term is right but what I mean is servo controllers may always ensure perfect 33.3 rpm but prevent super smooth rotation.
@ledoux1238
3. This question is an aside. I am wondering about the use AnologMagik to optimize SRA / VTA. I have fallen into the camp where VTA is adjusted for every record played as the Trans Fi Terminator allows for VTA on the fly. Adjustments on the AnalogMagik is a one time thing. How does it account for record thickness, hence variations in SRA?
I simply adjust VTA using a 180g record and don’t change it for other records. yes thickness of a record effects VTA and thus the sound but tonearm’s coupling to armboard and being rigid on base/fixing bolts is effecting sound much more. if you can achieve same rigidness on your tonearm’s base and when you change VTA the tonearm’s azimuth, zenith etc. alignments don’t change then it’s ok to adjust VTA according to record thickness. Analogmagik is a great software. it’s very useful but it takes a lot of time to learn how to use it because a bad reading on one alignment such as VTA, azimuth, anti-skating etc. may be the cause of another. that’s why if you are not very sure what you’re doing Analogmagik can lead to a bad alignment and it can give more harm than good.
As I had mentioned, a local audio reviewer did an extensive, photo by photo, presentation of the adjustments through AnalogMagik for VTF, azimuth..etc, as they appear on the screen of his laptop. The time consuming nature of the process was palpable. And several adjustments, I think especially on azimuth, he could only get close to the optimal settings. However, for all parameters, he concluded that, the software created better sound quality across the board than his previous efforts, presumably by ear.
@mtemur As you have confirmed, AnalogMagik is a sophisticated piece of software. And its great to have you share your results. What does your analog setup consists of ?
In the past few months, I have made seriously effort to recalibrate and re-engage the tonearm / cartridge set up process. Due to the sloppiness of my previous efforts, some of the La Platine speed issues, may very well be setup errors on my part. I am less concerned with the speed related issues or the motor. When properly set up, the micro-dynamics coming out of vinyl is quite something.
1. I like very much your cartridge collection, not the least because compared to the Overture amp and GE-1 phono stage, they are decidedly 'modest'. I wondered what is your thinking on using 'entry' level cartridges?
2. I had a damaged SME V which was returned to SME for refurbishment. What I got back, as far as I can tell, was a brand new arm! And I have decided to keep it. Any advice on how to optimize the arm with the TT? I see Kondo wiring throughout.
I wondered what is your thinking on using 'entry' level cartridges?
because unlike other equipment cartridges are consumable products (at least that's what I think). their life is about 500 hours. it will extend to 1000 hours only if you're lucky (doing the right things like cleaning records, gruv glide etc.) retip cost is very high if the cartridge is expensive. I installed 5 Kondo IO-M cartridges for my friends in last 8 years and it sounds terrific if you can afford it. on the other hand EMT TSD15N SFL may not have top price tag but I won't call it entry level.
And I have decided to keep it. Any advice on how to optimize the arm with the TT?
I think that's a good idea. I changed my SME V's internal wiring with Kondo 11 years ago and I never regret it. stock van den hul silver internal wiring is terrible. Kondo silver wire definitely transforms SME V. if you ever do change it with Kondo please consider owning SL-115 headshell cables and Ls41 armcable too. a friend of mine has a Kondo tonearm and it is actually a modified SME V-12 with Kondo wiring all over.
on the other hand EMT TSD15N SFL may not have top price tag but I won't call it entry level.
I surely did not mean to imply disrespect for the classic TSD 15. I applaud your choice of cartridge. Unfortunately, my precent current mode phono stage will not accommodate the 24 ohm inner impedance of the EMT. However, I do run a ZYX Ultimate 100. Would you offer a quick comparison of the two?
On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.
if you ever do change it with Kondo please consider owning SL-115 headshell cables and Ls41 armcable too.
Yes, there will be the eventual direction I'd go. Thanks!
Also, I am quite interested in how you ended with the La Platine ?
On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.
It's a fallacy.
The likelihood that a cartridge suspension still operates correctly after so many years is close to zero. I would not subject my valuable record collection to the abuse from a clapped out cartridge just to save a few dollars. The damage on vinyl from mistracking, even unheard, is massive and permanent.
Unfortunately there seem to be a few on this forum who promote vintage cartridges, but the reality is that finding a NOS example or new stylus is almost impossble for most of them ( some on this forum are resellers of clapped out cartridges - buyer beware ), and ultimately more costly than a reasonably priced modern cartridge.
the suspension of a cartridge usually lasts for 5 years like car tires. when it deteriorates it will change the compliance of the cartridge. most people may say that "I’m using a cartridge older than 5 years and it sounds great so the suspension is ok.". actually it is not. you need to measure cartridge-tonearm resonance and if it matches the calculated resonance than it’s ok. if it doesn’t there is a high possibility that your cartridge’s suspension is gone.
@ledoux1238
I surely did not mean to imply disrespect for the classic TSD 15.
I didn’t take it as a disrespect. that’s perfectly alright. on the contrary I don’t want to give the impression like I’m obsessed with my equipment.
ZYX and EMT are different than alike. EMT is a dynamic and lively cartridge ZYX is a smooth and full bodied one.
One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.
I had a chance to use Ortofon MC2000, MC3000, MC5000 and 75th anniversary cartridges more than 10 years ago. all together at the same time. I used them not too long but enough to get their sound signature. they all need their dedicated SUTs and none of them can match today’s good MCs let alone top ones.
vintage cartridges from the 70’s and 80’s are comparable in quality to the some of today’s more expensive offerings.
you got a point cause I have seen poorly build expensive cartridges but incredible good built ones too. old cartridges’ build quality may be better than today’s ones but I don’t think their sound is better.
Also, I am quite interested in how you ended with the La Platine ?
I was always looking for a robust heavy turntable and La Platine was one of the candidates. when a friend told me that he is going to sell his La Platine I made my decision about buying his.
@barbapapa Thanks for the update. According to a post by @ct0517, it retails for $13,995 in the US. I seem to remember purchasing it for closer to the its present French domestic retail price.
I suspect you all are correct about the fact that the suspension of a vintage cartridge will have aged, inevitably. But does that really matter, when one is getting pleasure from the sound emanating from that cartridge? Why waste time perseverating over what the actual compliance might be, when you can have fun listening? If you choose a Tone arm and head shell with effective mass that work well with whatever the compliance is, then you may not ever need to know the difference. Speaking specifically of the Ortofon MC 2000, it is my opinion after a few years of using one that this cartridge is capable of magical results, but it is highly dependent on the nature and character of the amplifying device, because its voltage output is so low. So it is rather like a Chameleon.
for that matter, even brand new cartridges come to us with a stated compliance from the manufacturer. What do you think is the margin of variability of that number from the actual compliance of any single given sample of that cartridge? I would bet that it is a wide tolerance. I would also bet that most if not all manufacturers do not test individual samples for compliance.
The venerable J Gordon Holt reviewed the MC 2000 for Stereophile in 1985. The cartridge, if NOS, would be at least 20 years old. My interest with this super low output cartridge is due to a recent acquisition of a current mode phono stage, Channel D Lino C 2.0. It seems a perfect candidate to run through the Lino.
@lewm Would you happen to know the input impedance of the cartridge? And how are you amplifying the darn thing?
A number of people have commented on the various modifications /improvements that can be made to the Verdier Platine. I have had mine since 2001; bought from GT audio UK, the then importer. It has the battery power supply and controller, rehoused motor (6kg), ebony arm boards etc. PLINTH: My understanding is that the plinth for the Verdier platine has undergon three transformations. The first was a concrete/granite aggregate mix, pink in colour that was expensive to make and difficult to produce . This was replaced with a particulate/resin mix that could be produced consistently and was mainly grey in colour. The last itteration was a black MDF (i think) plinth. there is an interesting comment on the original plinth by Keith Ascenbrunner of auditorium23 ( www.auditorium.de).
It is also worth accessing the Audio qualia web site (www.qualia.webb.com) as it goes in to some detail regarding the key parameters for TT plinth materials; especially regarding the relevant damping factors and resonance characteristics. After exploring the webb site it is difficult to justify anyone using slate or MDF for a plinth. You can draw your own conclusions. MOTOR: The motor probably attracts the most comment both positive and negative. With a bit of tweaking some of its presumed weaknesses can be overcome and Callas audio has some suggestions to improve it. (www.callas.audio.nl). A number of people have used the original Terres motor or the one produced by Tom at Glabier audio. I understand that he has reintroduced his latest motor and controller with a new tape belt for the Verdier Platine. I think that it retails at 2,600$. I woid be tempted to modify my motor with a new Drelin pulley and flt belt from Tom. So something for the future. FEET: There could be some merit in decoupling the pneumatic feet as you have two springs in the original Verdier; the magnets and the feet. Whatever belt that you use (thread, round rubber or tape) will act on the platter and the springs and disturb its equilibrium. Again Callas Audio has some interesting information and measurements regarding defeating the original feet. It is easy to do by placing some wooden blocks on whch to suspend the plinth and come to you own conclusions. I decided to do the thing properly and had a set of ebony feet made that fit into the recesses made by the original feet. They were made for me by Magna Audio in the UK (www.fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio) There is a picture on their web site titled 'solid ebony plinth feet'. They have an aluminium insert to take the ss levelling screws in the platter. I have to admit that I am obsessive about levelling the TT. I use a lathe bed precision level that is 30cm long and therefore perfect for the platter. My TT sits on a Symposium ultra platform which in turn is supported by a set of Townshend footers. With the motor housing you have over 70kg to support PLATTER There is not a lot you can/need to do with the platter except play with different mats and record clamps. I have tried, felt, cork, glass, carbon, fibreglass, bronze etc., and ended up going back to the original 'lead ' mat. However, Acoustical systems has a modification they call an SDS acrylic plater that sits on the original one and is supposed to dampen and decouple the spindle by using a gel resevoir etc. (www.archer-headshell.de/accessories/sdp) AS have also made arm pods that sit on the plinth of the verdier. BEARING Again, Callas audio used to do a Mod Kit for the TT that contained a larger bearing with smaller tollerances than the original and using a different oil to the Rocol ultracut oil as well as a ceramic ball for the top of the bearing. I assume that this will affect the braking that the original oil is supposed to apply to the platter. How this will translate into what you hear i do not know.
Like most things; the science will give you the data, sometimes the information but only you will decide on its relevance to you.
Very nice write up for all the relevant components of the La Platine. A lot of information, and I did peak into the link from Audio Qualia which is new to me. The Magna Audio and Galibier Design sites, I am familiar, but never knew the ebony feet was meant for the La Platine. And It was a good surprise to see the motor - control from Galibier finally ready to be adapted to the La Platine. But at $2,999, a bit stiff for me.
Your posts raised more questions, for me, than it answers. I’d like to fire a few and hope to learn more:
1. When you got the TT did it come with Tron’s Battery powered motor only? Were you ever able to compare the ‘stock’ motor with it? There are quite a few reports of the sonic improvement of Tron’s battery powered motor here. Would like to have you elaborate more, if possible?
2. The Discussion on plinth material on the Audio Qualia site is very involved. It does seem that the research conducted favor resin as one of the optimal plinth material. And does that mean the LaPlatine produced by Auditorium23 with the resin / terrazzo plinth has better resonance characteristic and therefore sounds better tag the MDF ones? I know that @ct0517 who has commented here has the ‘ granite ‘ version, and touts the superiority of his deck. So granite deck better than mdf?
3. I don’t understand how the ebony feet from Magna Audio, which are beautiful btw, are attached ? Do you remove the existing aluminum feet by unscrewing? And what are the sonic benefits?
4. You have replaced the footers of the Symposium platform with Townshend pods. Why? That combination had occurred to me before, however, I had thought the Symposium couplers and the platform work in tandem?
I could go on, as you post provides much curiosity. I stop for now and waiting clarifications.
I had a Platine Verdier with the MDF plinth for a year or two. It got slaughtered by my Final Audio VTT1 and hence I sold it off.
The following mods narrowed the performance gap - I removed the sprung feet, and cut marine ply inserts with stainless steel thread inserts embedded. These were friction fitted into the cavities. This enabled me to use rigid footers with adjustable height to level the deck. The removal of springy feet and installation of rigid footers improved timing and pitch stability ( in conjunction with the thread belt, which was superior to the rubber belt ). I also used the supplied ball to ground the platter - using dial calipers I was able to keep the platter lift to about a thou of an inch, which meant minimal load on the ball. This mod cleaned up the high frequencies, but was quite subtle. After comparing many mats I settled on a Barium Lead Acrylic composite manufactured for Sumiko in the 80’s, with a Final Audio record weight. Lastly - the motor was crap. Very noisy. In the end I built a cradle clamp for the motor that sat underneath the top cover of the motor housing. The cradle enabed me to clamp the motor at multiple points. By adjusting pressure to the motor I found I could minimise the noise somewhat. I also replaced the rubber feet on the motor unit with 3 adjustable feet so the motor could be precisely levelled.
Replacing the weedy motor drive with my Final Audio VM7 motor system - larger ac motor driven by dual sine and cosine wave generators and 60wpc power amp - showed that the Verdier motor is useless.
Similarly with the bearing tolerances. On my Final Audio which has a 26kg platter with an inverted bearing, it takes about 6 hours to get the platter down after relube. Compare this to the Verdier, where the platter goes straight down after relubing. In other words the bearing tolerances on the Verdier are appalling by most standards.
So in a nutshell, if the Verdier where my only TT I would go for the Callas bearing and find a better motor drive system. Probably replace the MDF plinth too. So the only useful parts in the Verdier are the platter and magnets - everything else requires upgrading.
Honestly, before offloading the Verdier, I compared it to a Pioneer broadcast idler with the same arm & cartridge mounted. This showed how out of control the Verdier was - the Verdier was more transparent, but the idler had better timing and pitch stability. Since then I built a Garrard 301 up for my 78’s - this ( again with same arm & cartidge ) creamed the Verdier by miles in every aspect, though still not in the league of my reference Final Audio.
When i bought the Verdier it came complete with GT's modifications so i was unable to compare it with a standard Verdier. However, I did add another GT Verdier with the MDF plinth and the difference was noticable. Precision and detail and impact ,especially on good piano recordings. The motor and battery supply dropped the noise floor with an increase in detail and attack. So, to answer your question, then yes the Granito resin particulate plinth is significantly better than the MDF.
The ebony feet that i had made replaced the pneumatic feet completely. They had a stepped profile to fit the recess in the plinth.
The use of the Townshend pods is a fairly recent addition. Initiated by a discussion with graham tricker who had used a Townshend platform under all his equipment, including his TW TT. He had made thicker plates for the tops of the platforms. We spent some time comparing the diference with and without the platforms. As I had Symposium Ultra platforms unde all my equipment I just went and bought the appropriate pods. The effect in my system was immediate, with a perception of space and depth to the music. Probably due to the increased isolation and by placing the constrained damping below the platform rather than under the TT plinth.
I probably agree with most of dover's points, but as I bought my Verdier with most of the potential downsides of the Verdier addressed then there was little for me to 'put right'.
The comment about the bearing is an interesting one. I would agree with the pont made and that the Callas mod kit recognises this (I actually have the kit but not installed). JC Verdier designed his bearing intentionally with larger tollerances than you would expect.He used a specific oil and used it to incorporate a braking effect on the platter. He could certainly have done it differently if he wanted to. Also the original design did not include the steel ball at the top of the bearing on whch the platter can rest. The ball does a couple of things; provides a ground path for vibrationy/energy transfer and makes settling the platter easier. And, yes, by varying the weight of the platter on the ball it does have an impact on the lower frequencies of the misic.
I think that the verdier is capable of great things; in particular it can be an extremely neutral transducer. It neither adds nor subtracts information. Very few TT do that. Having lived with a Goldmund Reference, Rockport, Garard 301, Well tempered Signature and Simon York S7 in the past I am now happy to live with what i have got.
@perart1 I think we are on the same page. There is a lack of mechanical grunge that is where the Verdier shines over many other TT's. It has a very low noise floor. It is very enticing. I sold the Verdier to a friend who owned an SME20 and he was very happy - it was a big upgrade. The main issue for me was the speed stability compared to my reference that I could never quite conquer, but there must be some answer. My feeling would be to replace the motor with an ac hysteresis motor such as used in the old idlers. The standard Verdier motor is simply a small DC motor with an relatively loose power supply. I often thought the cheapest solution would be to use a Garrard motor or Empire motor with an appropriate speed controller. There are some great motors in the old idlers - the motor in my Pioneer broadcast idler is twice the size of the Garrard and substantially quieter. The AC motor used in the Final is roughly the same size as the Garrard, but you cant hear it running until your ear is about an inch away from the pulley and even then its only turbulence, no motor noise.
@ perart1 The disparity between MDF and Granito plinth is very informative. Not much discussion here. I suppose the same goes for the arm board. Solid wood (ebony ) or wood / brass combination trumps the MDF arm board, I'd imagine.
The Callas Mod Kit, I think, deals with more than the bearing. The following is a link to a review of the mod kit: https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf The reviewer reports on one of the most important aspect of the mod kit: the ability to control the magnetic force asserted on the platter. This in turn increases the bass performance of the La Platine. The reviewer claims that the Continuum Audio Caliburn turntable in fact has magnetic repulsion similar to La Platine. But the designer, Mark Dohmann, incorporated a mechanism for controlling the magnetic forces. That was the partial reason for the exorbitant price of the Calibrun.
@ Dover, I appreciate your frank assessment of the La Platine MDF version. The discussions here have confirmed that it is a TT that requires multiple increments of tweaks and improvements. There are plenty of advocates for the original motor, however, I appreciate your calling out its defects. While I have not done the battery powered conversion nor any of the Callas Audio tweaks, I believe I fall in the camp calling for wholesale replacement of the motor. The question is which motor to replace it with. I am leaning toward a motor that will work the thread drive, SOTA, Galibier..or perhaps your Final audio?
Thanks for the feedback. The Final Audio stuff is unobtainable now. I prefer AC motors because they lock to frequency and error correction due to stylus drag is self induced and reasonably benign, whereas DC motors require constant monitoring and speed correction via some form of feedback system.
The reason for the proliferation of DC motors in TT’s is because they are cheap and speed controllers are cheap to build.
The SOTA eclipse package looks to be great value at the moment. I’m pretty sure its a 3 phase AC motor with speed controller. I have heard a TW Accustic motor sytem on a Micro Seiki 5000 and it didn’t seem to offer much improvement over the original.
With the recent interest in restoring idlers there are now many speed controllers available for the big AC motors eg Classic Turntable Coy, Longdog Audio etc. Since there are also now parts (bearings, bushes, coils remanufactured ) for Garrard motors they are possibilities.
I think that If i felt that i needed to improve the stock motor i would look seriously at the Galibier as it is now in production. You could always fo for the Dereneville!!!!!! The motor of choice on WTBF. (said tongue in cheek). I tried the TW motor and there was little difference to the stock motor.
I think that i bought the last Callas kit and I am not sure that they will be made, and yes i am aware of what the kit is supposed to do. I will install it one of these days just to see. I have not heard of anyone commentating on the 'improvement' it brings.
I can not think of any turntable that has been in continuous production for so long and not been 'improved' by the manufacturer. Its principles have benn copied and adapted by many.Linn have consistently been 'adding value' to their product over the years. With the advances in materials science and technology Verdier could have made the VP a more effective package. Their nouvelle platine has had some development work done by auditorium23 with Verdier's involvement and blessing, but with a restriction that it should not be sold outside of Germany.
My apologies for this late reply. I have been looking into motor options, SOTA, Galibier, Derenville, and GT Tron. Graham Tricker wrote that his motors are no longer available, except for some aluminium motor housings. On the Galibier web-site the motor from the previous generation, The Lecacy 2001-2013, was sited as very similar to the La Platine motor. However, the Verdier motor itself is high torque, low inertia, different from that employed by Thom Mackris. Both the Galibier and Derenville motors use electronic controls housed within the motor pod while SOTA incorporates the Roadrunner servo control.
In re-reading earlier posts on this thread, there are plenty of advocates of synergy between the stock motor and the platter / plinth assembly. I am back on the fence ( again ! ) regarding replacing the motor. I'll work a bit more to untap the potentials of the stock motor.
I missed this thread the first time around. Since we added more content to our drive system update page, we’ve unsurprisingly been fielding quite a few questions about Verdiers.
I caught a couple of comments above (one by @lewm) which is exactly what I advise folks to do. Remove as much compliance as you can from the system. In this case, it means footers and any other form of suspension.
If you have any sort of lossy link between the motor pod and the platter, you might as well be using a rubber belt. We’re way past rubber belts, aren’t we <grin>
I’m fairly confident that you’ll like the trade-off that locking everything down will yield (trading isolation for speed coupling) - whether it be suspension, aftermarket squishy footers, or anything else.
If you do it right, you’ll not only hear better pitch stability, but the harmonic content will be more rich (bowed cello, woodwinds, etc.), your upper frequencies be more pure, note attack and delineation of complex musical lines will suddenly make musical sense. In short, it’s mo’ better.
This is next level of speed stability (beyond simple wow & flutter). It addresses distortion products and the improved attributes noted above are your reward.
I’ve repaired a few Verdier drive systems over the years, and I like Ron Ploger’s motor mount fix. I prefer to take it one step further. Ron correctly advocates tightening up the isolation system in the motor mounts. I found eliminating it completely to be better yet.
On the Galibier web-site the motor from the previous generation, The Lecacy 2001-2013, was sited as very similar to the La Platine motor. However, the Verdier motor itself is high torque, low inertia, different from that employed by Thom Mackris. Both the Galibier and Derenville motors use electronic controls housed within the motor pod
Hi @ledoux1238 ...
Regarding our pre-2014 **drive system**, I was surprised (upon repairing my first Verdier) to see that he was using the **identical 3-pin regulator circuit** (an LM338T) that we implemented.
In retrospect, I shouldn’t have been. We pulled the circuit off the regulator’s datasheet, and obviously JC found his way there as well. That’s why they publish those circuits, so you can use them ;-)
Of course, our ergonomics (switching arrangement) differed, and we used battery power vs. rectified AC, but you knew that. Our motor was indeed lower torque than the Philips/Primotec. So, in total, the two **drive systems** are/were very similar.
Thom, thanks for your input. The new website info on the motor is very informative. I have a question: The new generation motor is improved, it seems to me, on three fronts: better electronic circuitry, better power supply, and higher torque motor. How would your motor compare to a servo motor from SOTA / Roadrunner?
With regard to Issues on the plinth and its suspension, I believe we should treat the granito and MDF plinths really as two separate categories. @ct0517 has commented that the granito plinth and suspension work in tandem with optimal resonant qualities. As prior discussions by @perart1 has indicated there is a clear resonance advantage of the ‘terrazzo ‘ plinth. However, defeating the suspension on the MDF plinth is a way to address the resonance ‘defects’ inherent in the wooden base. I hope to get some confirmation on the particular point: that defeating the suspension really only works on the MDF plinths. And that is the one I own.
I hesitate to comment on other manufacturers’ products, unless the discussion is general in nature (design approaches, etc. and not better/worse). In the case of the SOTA, I’ve never played with it.
You have an excellent point about the two Verdier bases. Anytime a spring (resonant frequency) is a factor, it means that mass is a consideration (as well as the characteristics of the materials), so yes, Granito vs. MDF would indeed behave differently for all of these reasons.
My comment about locking down all suspension related to the resonant loop comprised of the motor drive, the "belt", and the base/platter. Subtle relative movements between the drive components can affect speed stability on the "micro" level I described earlier.
In this sense, any suspension in the loop, whether it be some "squishy" footers under the drive system, or springs under the turntable base/platter will have similar effects to that of a rubber belt.
The good news is that suspension under a fairly massive base like that of the Verdier is likely to have a smaller effect than that of a rubber belt due to the platter/base assembly being high mass, and "jiggling" quite a bit less (much less so than for example, a Linn turntable).
You may well find this to be continuum - that a bit of compliance will be the best compromise in your system. In general, I fall into the camp that less (suspension) is more.
Some of this has to do with musical values - your perceptual framework and what in a musical performance your attention is drawn to, and we’re all different in this regard. I tend to listen to a lot of rhythmically complex music with interleaving musical lines, so dynamic behavior is important to me.
My take is that when the urge to experiment strikes (and we all know that it occurs frequently with Verdier owners <grin>) that you play with taking as many "springs" out of your drive system as possible - as long as it’s reversible.
"..
Some of this has to do with musical values - your perceptual framework and what in a musical performance your attention is drawn to, and we’re all different in this regard. I tend to listen to a lot of rhythmically complex music with interleaving musical lines, so dynamic behavior is important to me .."
You express the issue very well. It is about how we set our musical priorities. I will experiment with a temporary suspension defeat using adjustable footers as my MDF plinth could use some help. Learn a bit about the SQ, and eventually investigate the motor. Your help, Thom, will be sought after.
The amount of knowledge and insights gained from this post with future insights yet to come, the informed discussions, sharing of experiences, and some criticisms of my Audio Nervosa have contributed greatly to the understanding of my vinyl front end and taught me what to listen to. What is coming out of the speakers now is far superior to that just some nine months ago! Given the whirlwind sweeping around us, this has turned out to be a safe harbor.
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