2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine


A recent encounter with a JC Verdier dealer as well as a recent Audiogon discussion thread led to the start of this thread. He was in my house updating my La Platine which had been in storage for ten years with thread and oil. While he has high regards for the deck, his newer clients nevertheless prefer a Techdas iii than an 'old' La Platine. Given the proliferation of expensive decks in the past dozen years, La Platine has become very much under-appreciated. 

It's clear to me that the influence of the La Platine is everywhere to be found. Specifically, the magnetic suspension system that was employed 30+ years ago. Even SOTA offers their newer decks with mag. lev. features. And if you read this review: https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf, the Continuum Caliburn uses the same concept, which was not acknowledged in Fremer's review, albeit with more sophisticated , and expensive, execution.

It is also clear to me that there is much misunderstanding of the workings of the La Platine. I for one have contributed to this. The motor of the La Platine, for example, has been much maligned. The thread drive is another aspect of the turntable that have been described as inferior. With regard to the motor and thread drive, I have been set straight by Chris @ct0517 and Lyubomir @lbelchev. Experimenting with the different types of silk threads, the tightness to the platter  and a renewed understanding of the soundness of the Philips motor have been rewarded with better dynamics and transparency. 

The funny thing is that during the past two years of re-engagement with audio, I have questioned ownership of every components in my arsenal except the La Platine. It has always been a keeper. I wonder if La Platine owners would contribute to celebrating this 'old' deck with tales, advice, and insights?

Cheers!
ledoux1238

Showing 8 responses by vuckovic

Just to clarify few things:
- I was talking about AF-3 Premium version of TechDAS. It is way better than regular AF-3. It is also more expensive .. I think like 40% more. 
- Tron use the same Verdier motor with some upgrades I assume (?). He made a very nice battery power supply for this motor. That would be its main advantage . I did not have time and wish to compare his battery power supply with mine. Both works great but mine is way cheaper. - Verdier motor generally makes noise. I think that Myler tape actually is the main reason why is that noise is not transmitted to my platter. It is much cheaper to make Derlin pulley and use tape than to buy a new motor. Otherwise Verdier motor is excellent. My friend who has 2 Verdiers has tried several motors of very prominent TT manufacturers and was very disappointed. One of them had W&F of 0.2%!!!. If you use tape find black Mylar tape ! Silver one is peeling and leave residue on platter.
This is my email written long time ago to my friends in Toronto. They are members of GTAA audio group and many members have La Platine and share their experience with this amazing TT between themselves. I wanted to share my thoughts and experience with them and I hope you can find something helpful for you.
In original mail there were many pictures but I do not know how to pot it here.

""" I am very grateful to you and all of your friends who spent countless hours helping to improve and tweak the Verdier. The Verdier is an amazing turntable, even in stock form it is one of the very best available. Once tweaked, I believe it to be one of the finest turntables available at any price - beating my reference turntable Versa Dynamics 1.2. One of the strongest features is its unique and effective design. Design is one of the most important aspects of any HiFi component. You can extensively tweak a mediocre design and find that a properly designed, less expensive and simpler component will be vastly superior. Because of its brilliant design, La Platine can easily be tweaked to achieve analog nirvana. I have listed my improvements below:

1. Motor – one of the options was the old Teres motor. Problem is, it’s out of production and Teres didn’t respond to my emails. Furthermore there are difficulties with the Teres motor in regards to tape placement on the pulley. Placing the strobe light under the platter was another issue. I also considered some more expensive options available in the marketplace. After speaking with several respected members of the audiophile community I decided to go with the stock Verdier motor. The stock motor is excellent especially with the following improvements:

a) I made a battery power supply using a marine battery and utilizing a DC to DC converter. The variance in output was excellent +/- 0.02Volts. The Internal AC connection was bypassed including the on/off switch.

      
b) The stock pulley was replaced with a custom Delrin pulley to accommodate ½” Mylar tape. The pulley must have convex sides, bulging out in a way to keep the tape centered. Once properly placed it is extremely easy to put the tape on it, it can be accomplished in less than five seconds. The pulley was made to perfectly fit the Verdier motor.


2. Using 1/2” Mylar tape instead of string or thread

Using tape greatly improves speed control. Greater speed control translates into improved dynamics and tonal color. The image below shows the Feickert Platterspeed measurement on my Verdier.




          



3. Plinth Support – this is a big question- to use the original springs or not? Two very prominent TT designers told me that it is not good to use a spring/suspended plinth with a design like the Verdier. Their contention is that it is almost impossible to get the correct speed due to the almost constant movement of the springs. To compound the problem, changes in room temperature and humidity affected precise plinth leveling. With all of this said, the original springs produced excellent results in my system. It resulted in a beautiful lower midrange which shone when playing small jazz ensembles and excelled at reproducing the human voice.

I tried everything, Walker and Mapleshade spikes, ebony cubes, carbon cubes, Boston Audio cubes, roller blocks, etc. Springs still sounded the best, until I tried the Stillpoints Ultra SS. I typically never liked the Stillpoints in the past. A very good friend of mine is a Stillpoints dealer so I previously had the opportunity to try them under all of my equipment (speakers excepted). Didn’t like them in that application. Their effect was to increase the resolution but also lifted the tonality upward so that it sounded more HiFi. Nothing wrong with that, 90% of audiophiles would love it, but it wasn't generating the organic sound I was trying to achieve.

At this point I was ready to order the Vibraplane to try under the turntable. By pure coincidence, I ran into my friend, the Stillpoints dealer who suggested I try the Stillpoints under the table. I tried it and the results were fantastic. Increased dynamics, greater frequency extension, more detail, nicer texture, a great improvement over the springs. This was not a subtle improvement, it was dramatic.

The orientation of the Stillpoints makes a considerable difference. In my system facing the tips up resulted in a huge soundstage but I lost body and texture. Facing down gave me the more satisfying results.

Two additional things I got from the Stillpoints were:
a) even greater speed control
b) the ability to support two heavy tonearms with copper/ebony boards without any problems in regards to plinth leveling.


4. Copper/ Ebony board for tonearm - I liked it from the start so I did not try anything else




   

5. Spindle ball touching the platter - there is a lot of discussion regarding this topic. Opinions are equally divided, pro and con. I have tried both and preferred the results when the ball is touching he platter. I purchased the tungsten carbide ball with the 10mm radius. I noticed dramatic improvements in the bass and overall dynamics. The bass became much deeper and tighter while the dynamics were on a different level versus the stock Verdier. No perceived penalty, just the a aforementioned improvements. The trick is to have very little of the platter weight supported by he ball, just enough to drain the lower frequencies. The rest of the weight - I would guess approximately 95% is still levitated magnetically.The same principle is used by Continuum Calibrum Reference turntable. You can easily test both options, placing small rubber washers under the lower magnet will quickly revert the levitation to purely magnetic.


6 .Record Mat – I suggest this is very system dependent. In my system I tried the Millennium M-LP Carbon, the Micro-Seiki Copper, the Boston Audio 2 and the one I ended up preferring, the Merryll Williams – GEM Dandy RCC mat. Carbon was too HiFi for my tastes, the GEM Dandy was very well balanced with a nice natural sound.

Please note, all of these findings are based on my tastes, preferences and my system. You may get very different results in your system. """"

In meantime I bought TechDAS AF-3 Premium but I still have Verdier and I can compare it to any TT on the market nowadays
Ledoux, I decided to keep Verdier because it is not worth to sell it. For the money you can get on the market you can buy nothing which comes even close to its quality and sound. I will keep it forever. My main TT is AF-3P where I have 3 tonearms, on Verdier I have 2 tonearms and I also use occasionally Versa Dynamics 1.2 with its own tonearm. A lot of choices! Ha!
Sorry Ledoux1238 for late response - too busy elsewhere. It is difficult for me to give you exact difference between AF-3P and La Platine. I have many arms and cartridges and until you do not put the same combo on both TT you can not be sure about direct A-B outcome. I moved last week Glanz MH-124s and VdH Colibri MS from Verdier to AF and got some conclusions which mirror my previous experience with AF.
AF-3P is much more quieter. This brings more transparency, more details and bigger soundstage. AF is also more dynamic and more neutral. Verdier is smoother with more body and more darker - some people would say - more natural. But do not forget that this is very tweaked Verdier. Last year I got from my friend another Verdier motor with battery power supply made by Graham Tricker ( Tron ). Since I put Mylar tape on my Verdier I have never compared it with regular belt and metal pulley. I liked it from the beginning and did not care - you can read impression about it in my previous post. But when I got Graham motor I tried rubber, original thread and some special fishing string as a belt again before I changed it to Delrin pulley and mylar tape. Difference was huge and striking. The highs were so dirty and compressed! I could not believe it. I measured speed (3150hz) and W&F ( 0.07% ) using AnalogMagik software. The only conclusion would be that these tiny thread and string transmitted huge noise to platter! Hard to believe but it is my experience. Another advice for Verdier fans would be to use use the shortest length of belt possible which should not be tight in tension. Platter should be mostly turn from its own weight inertia.
AF-3P is engineering marvel. Simple, beautiful, easy to operate - real jewel! From my experience it is the best sounding TechDAS model regardless the price. Better than any old Micro as well. The only TT I would go after AF-3P would be Karmeli’s American Sound AS-2000. I think Dave helped TechDAS in developing 3P. Very similar designs but AS-2000 is a piece of art!
In conclusion - AF is better but much more expensive than Verdier. If money is not object I would go with AF. In case you have to save money to afford it - forget AF. Keep Verdier and enjoy your life. I would rather take La Platine than ANY TW Akustic or Brinkmann....





Herron VTPH-2a was my darling - it was one of the rare components I kept for long time. Sound is perfectly balanced between SS and tubes. With details, transparency and dynamics it comes very close to best SS. In addition to it, Herron adds just a touch of tube magic - perfect balance for my ears. I have tested it against very best phono stages on the market and never felt urge to change it. Also Keith's service is second to none. 3 of my audiophiles buddies bought VTPH-2 after hearing it in my system. Enough said!
Eventually I replaced it with Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe. Why did I like Lamm better? Lamm has clearly deeper bass - giving some kind of real life lower frequency foundation. You know when you go to live jazz concert in very small venue and you sit in front of musician - my perception was always like - damn! this does not sound like my system. There is no artificially increased highs, sound is dark, dynamic like hell, with beauty of tone and texture. That is Lamm. It sounds more like real life than Herron. Herron might be more transparent with more details but the reason for that is ultimately lack of lower frequencies depth and resolution. Do not get me wrong - many audiophiles would prefer Herron because it sounds a little bit Hifi. Many people love that kind of sound and that is absolutely OK for me.
From my experience and my tastes - up to $10K I am not aware of better sounding phono than Herron. If your listening priorities tends to be towards Lamm buy LP2 used. It should be in price range of new Herron.
Ledoux1238, I am very familiar with MFA Lumi. My best audio buddy has 2 of them. They are very reliable and I am surprised you have ongoing problem. My friend suggested you to check rectifier in the power supply portion. Also you should contact designer Scott Franklin at Wavestream in California. I am saying all of this because Lumi is still the world class preamp! It will be very difficult to match its sound.
I do not use original suspension - you can read my first post in this discussion. I am not surprised you got more transparent sound with Lightspeed attenuator - it just shows you potential of your system. Lumi has vintage sound - great dynamics, body and texture. On other side it lacks ultimate transparency, details, frequency extension and see- trough soundstage - those were the reasons I did not want to go that route. Finding something between is very challenging.... If you are happy with Lightspeed's dynamic and body in your system - you have winner combination...
@topoxforddoc  Yes, you just place Delrin pulley on motor spindle . Be sure to have small screw on the bottom to tight it to spindle. Pulley should have convex sides and my diameter in the center is 10 mm. On the top is 8mm. You might go to center with 12mm. I forgot original dimensions. It is very important because smaller or bigger R can prevent you to get right speed with motor range. I can not measure right height but from the top of the motor metal housing to top of the pulley I have 23mm. You need longer for the space bellow metal housing. You can make flat pulley - but it is very difficult to put tape on it - leveling of plinth and platter should be perfect with motor pulley.