2017 ‘Keeper’ speakers under - $25K

I think the reason I appreciate the Vandersteen speakers is because stats as well as Maggies have some issues in the bass and are nearly impossible to integrate with any sub.  I know many claim that they use subs and they are just as fast as the panels, but for MY ear, I have never heard any of them integrated properly. That was my biggest problem with the Apogee's back in the day.  they had a couple of more affordable ones that had cone subs and they weren't coherent like a Vandersteen is.  Richard has just figured it out and it's not easy to do.  On certain music though the Maggie's are really special.  I just listen to a lot of different types and need a true full range, coherent, point source sounding speaker that is full range and tonally balanced from top to bottom.  Very few speakers actually can do this and then also disappear in the room and can be put up against a wall.  The tunable bass on the Quatro's (my new ones for those who don't read the whole thread) on up let's you even adjust the bass to your room and smooth it out.

Great article a bit over a year ago in Stereophile.  They interviewed a friend of mine, Billy Drummond.  Billy is a Jazz drummer and teaches music at Juliard I think it is.  He personally owns both Maggies and Vandersteen's.  Neither one are expensive. He goes into a bit of why he has both.  I know that he would kill to own my Quatro's, lol.  And I'm sure the 20's as well.  I'm sure if you Google it you will find it.

Ctsooner > “…Maggies have some issues in the bass and are nearly impossible to integrate with any sub.”

Blindjim > Hi Ctsooner!
Years back, speakers like Maggies, Stats and panels were using Vandy subs as the ‘fashionable’ way to address the bottom octaves. This was in lieu of Velo’s and Rels. I seem to recall Vandy had then a 3 or 4 driver sub in a unique configuration. Forward angled and top firing or so I seem to think.

A number of people I’ve met run Martin Logans with traditional cones doing the low down work. Honestly, this approach works fairly well IMHO. Nearly all or likely all instances of the MLs are pumping out cohesion across the board using a fair variety of power, both higher end SS and with 200 + wpc tube amps.

Sadly, I’ve discovered tons of speakers in the sweet spot ($2K to $10K) of the speaker buying realm, don’t do the lower register from 40 on down very well. Period.

Even when I felt the bass was being deftly presented, engaging a decent sub handed down the real verdict.

Perhaps once one enters the $10 to $20K range it might change. And sure, we can put the room on trial here too. Although, an absence of low end response is just that, an absence and can only be attributed to the speaker system… not the room.

Only when low end response is myred, bloated, discontinuant and or ambiguous can we start pointing fingers at items apart from the setup or environment itself.

The IMP and sensitivity of Vandersteens doesn’t quite fit my needs, but I’ve not revisited any of the latest press in house or public on the Quatro versions.

If you could input a link to the items in your last posting I’d sure appreciate it.

For something completely different…

Devore Gibbon X

Does anyone know of a relatively recent article on Devore Givvon tens or ‘X’ speakers describing their performance, options, and build to some extent?

Or if not, a directly comparable equivalent loudspeaker?

Or, even nice sounding moderately priced horn speakers?

Thanks

Scot Hull of Part-Time Audiophile has just (and finally) released a short review of the Gibbon X... 

Also, to possibly answer you build query, blindjim, about the Gibbons, there is a vid on YouTube somewhere with John D talking about the cabinet structure... Sorry for no links :( 

Jriggy > Part-Time Audiophile has just (and finally) released a short review


Blindjim > huge thanks. No worries on the links bit.
Finding substantial speakers these days with IMP of 8 ohms and higher EFF than 90 – 92db is getting as rare as finding hens teeth.

@blindjim 
I believe Daedalus has been mentioned to you already...but I thought I'd add that I own a pair of Argos. Incredible speakers. 

Jriggy > Daedalus has been mentioned…. Argos …. Incredible speakers

Blindjim > yes, they have, thanks much. Some items foist a set of rules that are kept to, or disregarded and then, only a leap of faith is required in order to get it or them..

Sure wish Daedalus was on this coast instead of the left coast… or Lou’s units were more. Popular so I’d have greater shot at scooting over to someone’s home to hear it/them/some.

Are the ‘Argos’ above or below the ‘Poseidon’ in his line up?

The Poseidon is above them all....for now... Wait till RMAF. I’m not sure but there may be a statement speaker showing... but Lou actually considers most of his speakers on the same 'level', just built for different applications\different sized rooms. 

Lou has east coast customers. He can set you up with a possible owner for a visit to there system for a demo. There is also representation in the D.C. area.

but if they do not meet your criteria or I have disregarded something, please feel free to ignore.

Jriggy > The Poseidon is above them all....for now...

Blindjim > super!! Thanks a lot.
I read an Argos v2 account from I think, Soundstage. 2013? Can’t find anything explicit or in depth on the P’s though.

‘appreciate the heads up on D.C.. I was just there too! Did not have time for anything but business though. Found out after my return about the various audio outlets. Great. Just my luck.

Oil well. Everything always works out. Just not when or how I would usually want them too… but it always does.


On another note/posting I did finally see the Youtube vid on the Gibbon X. the usually decent audio was not so good on that short IMO.

What still has a large question mark on speaker possibilities are the new Paradigm Personna line. Their specs alone got my attention… not their prices.

Speakers such as the personas, Van Quattro CT, Golden Ears, Focus Arias (?) which have the powered bass drivers and room correction at least for that area are an attractive notion.

Address the bass separately and do it well, opens the doors for loads of amp options. Specifically tube amps.

those from Devore, and Daedalus will have to remove themselves from my list. Along with a few others based on their own merits.

In fact, if I can find reasonably priced nice sounding horn speakers I could buy and try, then sell without loads of loss, I’d start there. We’ll see I think.

Jim,
Here is the Brutus award winner for Dave Clark of Positive Feedback:  

Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT loudspeakers (Read the review HERE)

Nothing to add that hasn't been said in my review and elsewhere by other reviewers... simply amazingly musically killer. We bought the review sample.

Here is the whole review:  http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/vandersteen-audio-quatro-wood-ct-loudspeakers/

He and his wife bought the review pair.  As for even the Treo's, like I said the bass goes down into the 30's before giving up steam.  It's not a huge woofer and the laws of physics apply, but it gives satisfying bass all the way down.  Never muffled or woolly.  It's just not the Quatro with the built in subs and the 11 band eq.  I personally haven't heard digital EQ done properly.  That's one of the things I didn't love about the Persona 9H.  They were like most Paradigms for ME, in that the highs were accentuated too much, but the bass wasn't fully coherent with that Anthem EQ. Again, that's just me.  I found the Treo's were driven nicely at reasonable volume, in my room with a 60 watt Ayre AX7e I had before upgrading to the AX5/20.  It's a zero feedback design which I prefer in amps and it's got plenty of current to drive speakers, but the Vandersteen's spec out nicely and are actually very easy to drive. I've heard Treo's driven by the 1800 Belles integrated NICELY as well as the mid level NAD integrated.  The Belles crushes the NAD IMHO, but you can easily put together a satisfying system using these amps with them.  

Again, they may or may not be YOUR cup of tea.  I didn't even like them when I first started my search for speakers to replace my 20 year old Proac's a few years ago.

As for horns, they are the most exciting speaker type on the market.  You can run them with flea watt amps and they are a blast. I finally got to hear a set a few months ago. I understand why folks love them, but they just don't do justice with vocals.  Their mids are not as good as a panel or a great dynamic can do. Even folks who sell them and love them will tell you that if they are truthful.  They are an easy sell if someone just wants a fun, dynamic speaker to listen to big music with.  There is a great market for that and it's why they have been selling so well for years and years and years. Heck, my first 'true love' speakers were the Klipshhorns in 69.  I wanted any of them.  I couldn't afford them at the time, but i got my buddy Frank to get a pair of the Heresy's with our Yamaha CR 620 (a top vintage receiver) that my former brother in law still runs daily and loves with newer speakers.  Franks system was fun to listen to rock with, that's for sure.  

Again, JMHO's on all of this.  I have changed how I listen over the years as I learn more.  I just listen differently than in the past. 

if you run across a page with the latest VDS Quattro wood CT specs... let me know if you don’t mind. .

although I’ve not read thru a legit review per se, I've read both of Mr. Clark's ramblings on them and looked at the VDS web site but finding the actual numbers on them including current costs, appears to be a National security issue, or of little or no value to mr. Clark or VDS.

one of my bigger pet peeves is to read thru a review or article on audio equipment, and no one posts the just as important info... like weights, sizes, number of inputs, or outputs, sensitivities, IMP's, damping factors, even cost isn't always squarely confronted on the home website of the manufacturer..

copying and pasting legit info is not hard. Posting no model prices? Why not?

What are you talking about?  If you are trying to discredit the speakers, good luck.  The cost is squarely on the site at 14,900 a pair in many wood veneer choices.  Painted, like mine, are an upcharge.  He hides nothing and never has. That's why he has the best selling speaker in high end audio in his 2's. 

Is a legit review one that you do?  Do you listen to music or read specs?  What is a national security issue to you?  

If you are asking if specs and numbers are important to Mr Vandersteen, the answer is obvious to most how have ever listened to interviews on panels at shows.  Very transparent as you seem to question his transparency.  That's how he invents new models and tweeks the ones he has now.  

I was trying to answer a question that you asked and you came back with a very rude and snarky remark.  I expect that from trolls on the internet Jim and that's how you come off to be honest.  

You seem to be very lazy Jim.  Everything you asked for is on the Vandersteen site, clear as day and if something is missing that you think is important in an audition, then just go to the ask Richard board that is clearly marked on his site and he will PERSONALLY answer your questions.  All questions with total transparency.  

I don't know Clark, but who are you to discredit a reviewer?  Are you above everyone else?  I've gotten two emails from folks who also are reading this thread and they laughed at your troll response.  Maybe you want me to only post a negative review on the speaker?  I can't find one anywhere. I personally don't care about reviews, but you asked and you received.  Next time, but list all the reviewers that you want to read about and then go search, cut and paste for yourself if you don't like what others do.  

I did get a good laugh out of your rudeness though, so I can't wait for the retort, ;).  

If you want to discredit the speakers, please share why and when you last auditioned them and with what gear and please share the specs of the room you heard them in.  Transparency goes both ways I guess, lol... good day sir.

Posting no model prices? Why not?

One reason is that many manufacturers have an export market. The problem with that is many countries have import duty, some of which are excessive. Tack on top of that shipping cost, and in the days of the internet a potential customer might be lost to the national distributor in that country if they see the US retail price.

About the only way around this problem is to not list the retail pricing. So if you are really serious about a certain speaker, just call the manufacturer or your dealer.

Thanks for the explanation.  Vandersteen does list theirs right under the picture of each speaker when you scroll down the page.  Very easy to read and understand, lol.  

Funny you bringing up the foreign markets.  I have spoken to many companies about pricing their units for the Asian market.  All have said they have to inflate their prices at least 50% as the Asian market kind of demands major discounts in order to sell.  All have said this who do business there.  They end up being over priced for the US, but the dealers will will then discount them the same 50% and make people think they are getting the buy of a lifetime.  I hate that type of situation and won't do business with those companies. I understand their dilemma for sure, but I like a company to do a fair mark up and then sell their gear without the huge discounts, which also helps the resale value much of the time. 

@blindjim 

@ctsooner 

I read the last few posts and walked away. But I felt like I needed to come back and post.

Don't want to get in the middle Jim, but if you go to the Vandersteen website, you'll find all the info you are looking for. I know since I've been researching Vandersteen for a few weeks now based on my very recent demo of the Treo CT with  McIntosh tube pre (C2600)/SS amp (MC452). That demo revealed a great speaker but maybe not as good as it could have been. The dealer said Ayre gear is what he believes to be the best synergy though they don't have it in the shop currently. ctsooner says the same thing. I think that the Quattro Wood CT is probably a very good deal even though I've never heard them. I've heard few very good speakers in the $10-15k range and I live in SoCal so I have access to shows, get-togethers, and many dealers. The Treo CT was convincing and never flinched as the volume increased or the material became more complex; no fatigue at all. The  Quattro Wood CT has the advantage of two eight-inch sub's with room correction and EQ and according to ctsooner, is much better.

After all this, Vandersteen/Ayre has gone on my short list along with:
Wilson Sabrina/ARC
Mbl + Mbl components.

I still want to further check out the Marten Django L. They were very nice sounding with Zesto tube gear at the LA Audio Show. Also want to hear T+A HV series SS electronics with the Sabrina's - supposed to be very good.

If you look up ctsooner's posts, you will find a wealth of info on Vandersteen. I think it is a worthwhile pursuit.

Ctsooner > What are you talking about?

Blindjim > good question. Too bad you let others inspire you to not find out before you were promted to launch such a ridiculous affront here.

Atmas figured it out all by himself. He is spot on with his input.

How did this get missed by your constituency? Where were your buddies? Why did they not drop by and have you post so off the mark all alone?

So far you have been utterly helpful. Very thoughtful and I sincerely have appreciated all of your efforts. Thanks very much. Really.

I must exclaim here however the ‘PM’ facility on this site works quite well and if someone wants to really know what is what rather than ‘assume’, and we all know what comes out of the word assume, they could pm me…. Anytime and for any reason.

it looks like you chose to answer your own question or allowed your friends to decrypt the obvious statements I made and twist them into a manner contrary to reality.

Snarkey? Probably but I did not ‘snark’ it first.

I’ll try to use short paragraphs so the content is not overwhelming to your friends ability to comprehend it, as it seems you prefer to rely on others to think for you at times.

As for personally attacking someone I’ve never met. Never even spoken with, well, perhaps that is the way of things for many people today. I’m not from this period. I come from a time where respect was given to anyone. It was coveyed by way of consideration, thoughtfulness, and benefit of the doubt.

To read into something when it is not actually there says someone has a real set of issues they should deal with… asap. Like feeling threatened when no threat is apparent…. Like now.

Or if someone has an old axe they wish to regrind. As such, they should step up and get to getting.

In this current you furst after me, generation it seems things are being rearranged towards a more selfish self centered, slightly paranoid slant or spin.

Spin, that’s what people call truth, yet it is no more the ‘truth’ than a billy goat is a lawn mower.

I know from VDS and a few other maker’s speakers, amps, DACs especially, etc, posts those speakers are the end all be all for them in modern audio…. Great. Enjoy. I’m happy for you all.

Troll. In the real, just outside my door world, out on the sidewalks, an streets, that term could be and should be argued as slander. Only sheer idiots would walk up to anyone and call them such a name.

As the opportunity here extends itself beyond the forums and into sales of costly electronics those words are libelous too.

This ain’t a quiet talk on a park bench is it?

Nope. It is a published and compywrited form, thus its legal and legit.

Grow up.

Its what children say. Or what English language challenged people use to allow them to not fully apprise themselves of the actual contant.

So they will use reactionary paranoid assignments to derail anthing resembeling some perceived affront or attack on their ego (s), equipmebnt, man crushes, etc, exclaiming epithets at anyone from whom they feel concerned..

Troll. Ridiculous! Pitiful!

Directed or implied, I will expect an apology for this unwarranted reactionary attack!

Only online. And from supposed adults.

Disparaging. Its one more sign of our ongoing social decay. Only the truly self absorbed will find any of this humorous. Most will find it pathetic and senseless.

I was not and will not in the future or ever, intentionally thru premeditation be attacking anyone or anything specifically. I’m not responsible for inappropriate perceptions of others. and made mention of that as well.

My assertions surrounded content which could and should be put to greater light when a report is being written. Especially with speakers. Routinely specs are left out of many published online reviews. But here once more ‘’sloth’ or laziness ride hand in hand. As it does with any number of online published articles on audio equipment.



FYI…… FWIW
What usually takes someone a couple minutes or less online to seek, find and archive takes far longer if you must do it with your eyes closed.

Gee. That was sort of snarkish and trollish huh? Well, too bad.

I should have said, if you are BLIND…., like me, LIFE IS A BIT MORE TEDIUS… way more often. Like freakin’ daily.

I spend an enormous amount of time if and when I need or want to search out things on the web.


You and your friends should try that. Try life with your eyes closed for say, one day. Just one 24 hr. day and see just how much more complicated and frustrating life becomes

Put that sleep mask on and don’t ask anyone else for help, as you will pretend to live alone. I live alone.

Nobody will. They never do.I ain’t asking for sympathy. Merely explaining my side of the fence. I knew the risks when I joined the military.

We tend to keep our eyes open and our hearts and minds closed. Especially in the 2000s.

The adaptive ‘accessibility’ software I use is expensive, but not fool proof. Some web sites do not allow decent or good integration with it or them and at times a web site is nothing more than a blank page for someone who is blind… when the website itself and the access software don’t like each other.

Yeah. My personal confuser reads to me…. That which it can IF it is working well, and IF it is working well with a properly written web page and IF all the content on the page is accessible to it.

Nearly evey website are written for sighted people. This poses significant issues quite often for non sighted folks.

Sometimes just bits and pieces of a web page are incompatible. Sometimes information on sites are input using images .and not using text.

It will look like text to a sighted person, but it ain’t always.

My adaptive software does not read images. At best it might say one is there, but that’s it. Now and then. Not always. Only HTML and Text get anything close to being able to have them read to me.

Navigating the site is another huge obstacle. Its why I ask for links if possible.

On the VDS site just to find out some info on the $5a’s I had to click on five different links to get to the review of the 5’s with the VDS amps.

Then my apps would not read the info online, so I had to copy and paste it onto a notepad text only doc and then cut to a std. doc for reading purposes.

It only took the better parr of an hour or so. And it did not answer my concerns for the dimensions of the VDS Q CTs. lol

Stereophile and a few other online pubs are even less accessible. I can not copy and paste their countents into a document for later reference. If the app is not feeling well, I miss the content completely. All the links on that page and others as well.

Still … all can be really rocking with the software and site, but still a this or a that is not stated, or Holy crap! I, me myself, simply missed hearing it!! Crap. Often I re-read what ever content way more than once. Tiome permitting and I feel up to it.

Additionally, manufacturer and online magazines as well as basically the world, needs to be far more aware there are people whose challenges prevent them from being in the game. Meaning sales from contact are lost. For no real good reason than poor judgement in erecting a website. Providing owner manuals in unlocked accessible formats , enabling easier navigation etc.

Pdf’s are another horror story all by themselves.

Due to blindness there are more than a few hoops I routinely am forced to deal with, others do not need to contend.

usually I’ve little trouble with this disadvantage but felt compelled to loose some of my frustrations in the areas which time and again aggravate me and in all are simply needless lacks of information which could have been posted by an author in such a way as ALL OF THE CONTENT IS ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE.

Anything not totally transparent here or otherwise can be unveiled via PM.


Atmosphere > Posting no model prices? Why not?
in the days of the internet a potential customer might be lost to the national distributor in that country if they see the US retail price.

Blindjim > Atmas… as usual I am grateful.
Wow. I’m very myopic too it seems. Never even crossed my mind as to the ‘hidden’ costs. Not once.
Thanks.

pokey77 > I read the last few posts and walked away.

Blindjim > Fan boys! Sheessh.

pokey77 > I still want to further check out the Marten Django L. They were very nice sounding with Zesto tube gear at the LA Audio Show. Also want to hear T+A HV series SS electronics with the Sabrina's - supposed to be very good.

Blindjim > for the most part, We are on the same path in our curiosities. I saw the account on the martin Django XL… not the ‘L’, and liked what I read. The WAS Sabrina as well seems a pretty interesting option although I feel both to be better optimized will need more than a couple handfuls of watts, which in all I don’t mind going with Solid amps, although tubes this time would be a primary choice if possible..

A hybrid amp might be the solution with either speaker. Indeed with a few speakers, like the upper ranges of Vienna Acoustic, KEF, or Audio Physics.

Simple works best for me. Even incorporating subs is not my preff, but often a necessity.

The ONLY reason for even thinking about active sub speakers is my desires on using a tube amp for power. 100wpc or less. Certainly no more than 200w.

Wherever things can be simplified in a system, I’m going to opt in for it. For now anyhow. I’m even beginning to like the notion of a single pair of speaker terminals vs two pairs.

Past years said to me, Focal are not speakers I’d likely ever own, but now, maybe so.
The Soffra versions, Audio Physic, WAS Sabrinas, Django XL, VA Music or Listz, KEF Blades, and on the outside the Personna lineup just out on paper at least all look like really viable well put to gether solutions..

Most, however sure look like they’ll want or need more than any 50 – 100 wpc to control them well. Driving them is another story and less than 100 wpc sure ought to work OK.

Good luck checking out the combos you noted. Clue me in on what you find interesting. Many thanks.

blindjim,

one of my bigger pet peeves is to read thru a review or article on audio equipment, and no one posts the just as important info... like weights, sizes, number of inputs, or outputs, sensitivities, IMP's, damping factors, even cost isn't always squarely confronted on the home website of the manufacturer..

Oh boy do I ever agree with you! 

I've been in the market again recently so have been reading a lot of reviews and it drives me NUTS reading reviews were the specs aren't stated somewhere in an immediately accessible, organized fashion.
How big are the speakers?  How much? What's the stated sensitivity, frequency response, etc. 

Having to wade through the body of the review hoping the reviews has stated these somewhere is so aggravating. 

This is one reason why I appreciate Stereophile reviews so much: I always know exactly where to go to clearly see the relevant specs (not to mention the bonus of the measurements).

Hi blindjim,

So sorry that the dribble here has caused you so much anguish. I mean that.

ctsooner is a good dude but subject to influences as are we all from time to time in this current "society" you so well articulate.

Dave

Guys, Maybe I miss understood the original posts and that can easily happen.  As most know I do have MS and cognitive issues, so often times I do misunderstand.  Jim, condescension is how I read your posts, but maybe I was wrong. I'll reread and if wrong, I am sorry, but I do hope you feel better with your posts back at me.  

On to the topic.  Guys, who are looking at new speakers, just I personally feel the Ayre gear or Aesthetix gear (if you want tubes) are great with the upper end Vandersteen's.  My biggest thought of Sasha vs Quatro is that the Wilson's will be exciting, but have much less detail than Vandersteen.  Make sure you bring your own music that you are very familiar with and listen for the micro and macro detail.  Have something with you that has decay and try and remember each speaker (I know you most probably already know this, but it never hurts to hear again, lol).  Wilson has done a great job in their new tweeters as they are much easier to listen to for ME.  

As for Marteen, I too like their sound, however I personally don't like how they run their company. They have messed over a couple of dealers I know of (feel free to Google as I think you can read about another dealer they messed over). I chose not to do business with folks who screw others over, but again, that's just me.  The problem is that it can very easily devalue the products.  Again, that's just me.

@blindjim 

I went back and read the account of your condition. I'm now enlightened. I do appreciate the knowledge. As for me, I grow impatient with websites and I can see just fine. Now I have a new appreciation for your world.

@ctsooner 

I also have an appreciation for yours now as well.

So, I feel it would be helpful for you both to know where I'm coming from when you read my posts. First, I've been into the highend since the 80s once I could afford it. My current system is:

McIntosh MA6500 integrated
Martin Logan Vantage speakers, powered 8" woofer
Oppo 105
Shunyata Power and a few PCs
Harmonic Technology speaker and interconnect
PS Audio power cords

I've had this system for 10 years and really like it. It also does 2-channel home theater duty as well. And my next system will have to do the same.

I live in SoCal and four years ago I started going to the audio shows in Newport as well as going to the LA & OC audio society GTG's. Mostly just for fun at first but after a while I realized the quality of a well set up and synergized system. I found myself first pulled into Mbl and their electronics. I still am, they are just so much fun to listen to from the entry level system, about $32k, all the way up to the Extreme System (I've heard many of the mega-dollar systems and the Mbl for me is the undisputed king). Then when the Wilson Audio Sabrina came out a few years ago, and I heard it with ARC gear,  I found another speaker/system I was very intrigued with. High resolution yet a sense of pace and as ctsooner says, exciting. These two speakers, along with the Marten Django L and Vandersteen Treo CT have really caught my attention. 

Here's how I've heard them set up:

Mbl
I've heard all their systems and I like the synergy that an all-Mbl system brings. The entry level system with the Mbl 126 standmount speaker (two 5.5 inch woofers), C31 CD-DAC, & C51 integrated (Class D). This setup is so musical and exciting, can pressuring a big room and is supremely lovely.

Sabrina/ARC
The Wilson Sabrina is just so good with Audio Research tubes. First heard them with the newer Gsi75 integrated (75 tube watts), Bricasti M1 DAC and Audioquest wire (if I recall correctly). This was at Sunny's in SoCal. Wow. Many at the get together really liked this system, I still remember that day. I walked away in love. Later heard the Sabrina's with D'Agostino gear and Bricasti MI and the same feeling, but the D'Agostino gear is well out of my price range. Then heard them most recently at the LA Audio Show, Sunny Audio again, with the ARC LS 28 pre and VT 80 amp (75-tube watts) and was just smitten. Spent a long time in that room. Heard vinyl, which was very good. But so was the ARC Ref CD9. Every digital track was just so good. I often dream of that system too. Pretty sure it was using Audioquest cable. 75 quality-tube watts have absolute authority over the Sabrina's. I would really like to hear them with T+A HV series integrated plus CD DAC.

Marten 
Django L with Zesto tube gear, Merrill Williams turntable and Cardas cable. Heard this only for five minutes at the LA show but was very impressed and may pursue farther. Will also research ctsooner's comments in regards to this company.

Most recently Vandersteen Treo CT
Haven't heard them since the 2C model 30 years ago. McIntosh tube pre and SS stereo amp plus sony hap-z1es. Not sure what the week link was, but think it could be even better and I like McIntosh. With this gear it was ultra smooth and revealing but lacked a bit of sparkle the Sabrina's and Mbl bring. I'd really like to hear the Quatro Wood CT and Ayre electronics.

The reason I mention in detail the speakers and electronics is because I believe unless you choose each of these two very carefully, you'll never achieve the best synergy. I feel the speaker/amp interface is the most critical in system synergy. It is all important, but you must get this right.

Before I sign off Jim, you mentioned the Sopra 2s. I've heard them a bunch of times and all but one time they were a turn off. Heard them with both tubes and SS. The one time they were pretty good was with PrimaLuna as I mentioned previously, and PS audio direct stream DAC with Mac book and pretty expensive cable (forget brand). Very well setup. But for me, they don't compete with the speakers mentioned above. They are a step down for me. 

@ctsooner  - I'll probably contact you at some point on Vandersteen.

@blindjim  - best of luck in your search.

Prof > “…do I ever agree with you”
“Having to wade through the body of the review hoping the reviews has stated these somewhere is so aggravating.”

Blindjim > DITO.
A casual owner account on a membership based forum has one bar to overcome. Professionals, or supposed ‘journalists’ need to be held to a much higher bar. They do a dis-service to the manufacturer and reader to approach articles on equipment which exceeds rational financial good sense so regularly If or when they purposefully omit or casually ignore pertinent data on the device under evaluation.

I’m beginning to feel such things are an indictment of the current sociall zeitgeist reflecting specifics and details, form and content are no longer integral feature sets of writing technical assessments more often than not.

I’m fairly competent anyone can say, “this is the best my rig has ever sounded! Or This is the most incredible ….. “” Although its nice to hear and adds a modicum of confidence about the product itself, perhaps, what then?

I’ve archived maybe 60 or more accounts on various gear in the past month or three. Read still more. Many were similar accounts of the exact same item, penned by different folks.

It sure seems any number of current ‘professional’ appraisals are little more than just letters to another associate who is as or nearly as familiar to the product as is the critic expressing their subjective views.

There are some outstanding writers too. Tafel, Dudley, Fremer, Atkinson, and more I am sorry I simply can’t immediately recall. The really good ones are able to convey much of what their perceptions are regarding the gear under the spotlight. They keep the focus on the item and not on themselves. Albeit, I’m not always in agreement or understanding some remarks as the media they use is totally foreign to me, or is introduced via analog sources, or thru comparisons with other likewise but unfamiliar gear, but I always get the gist of it… I think.

BTW…I took journalism classes, and seem to recall Editors are supposed to well, ‘edit’ oversee, and or have someone ‘proof’ whatever article is up for publishing as its all on their shoulders ultimately, and not the critic du jour.

Apparently, The 2000’s are a whole different ball game.


Prof > This is one reason why I appreciate Stereophile reviews so much: I always know exactly where to go for the specs and measurements.


Blindjim > of them all, Stereophile does justice to their accounts front to back.
TAS is another very good source for above average accounts.


Dlcockrum > ctsooner is a good dude but

Blindjim > everyone is or has good in them.
Passion is one thing. Comprehension is quite another thing.

Just say to someone they are ‘special’ and regularly of late the reply is, “special how?” “Short bus special?” etc. the ongoing level of acrimony is quite high. Higher than its ever been and more than ever online.

One can’t just race about with scissors in hand and with blinders on, seeing only their path.
OK… I’m gonna burn this soap box now. Once I find a lighter.


Ctsooner > “… Jim, condescension is how I read your posts, but maybe I was wrong. I'll reread and if wrong, I am sorry….”

Blindjim > “… other people told me…” “…””… Troll” “….”…if wrong…. MS!? “…condescention….”

I await your apology.

There was an air of disdain although it was not aimed at you!!!! That was evident in the very first few lines. It could not have been more clearly stated.

What followed as was again said rather plainly, my irritation lay with those online articles that would not reveal thoroughly important aspects of the loudspeakers, and why I asked that info of you…. if you plese.

Other’s saw this squarely.

Its also about self determination. Not living via a concensus from whomever won’t even post their own thoughts on the matter and goad you into doing it. . Some of these
sentiments and or words are flatly hurtful and as previously said, injurious. Plain and simple.

My best friend of 20 years wife, has MS. Advanced. She and I get along famously. Never have we misunderstood one another. When we disagree, we don’t go to name calling.

The best ally for anyone posting online is to grow some thicker skin. Fully read and comprehend what is actually being said and not consider other posts as personal affronts & accusations.

The second best ally is paitient thoughtful consideration.

The third best ally is the DELETE key.

If all of these fail, the only course of action needed is an amends..



pokey77 > I went back and read the account of your condition. I'm now enlightened.

Blindjim > I regret posting my challenges. It should not matter but it seemd the shortest route to unclutter the likely ‘cluttered’ discourse. Number one tenant for myself is to not hurt anyone with what I say or do. I do the best I can.


pokey77 > Jim, you mentioned the Sopra 2s. I've heard them a bunch of times and all but one time they were a turn off. Heard them with both tubes and SS. The one time they were pretty good was with PrimaLuna as I mentioned previously, and PS audio direct stream DAC with Mac book and pretty expensive cable (forget brand). Very well setup. But for me, they don't compete with the speakers mentioned above. They are a step down for me.

Blindjim > hmmm. Interesting. Really. The insights are most valuable. Thanks.

Ever hear the Sabrinas with MBL electrics?

Correct me here, but aren’t MBL speakers akin to di pole non point source type speakers? Maybe similar to Nola?

I find it curious the 87db WAS speaker wit 4ohm IMP did very very well with 75wpc Mac amps. How big was the room (s)?

Room and certainly setup is key. I do feel though, synergy is still a result. Having a shorter path to it is always nice.

I know I’ve heard this or that rig and felt I could afford this or those parts of it, but never felt I could just whip out the plastic and say “gimme it all!” which would settle a whole lot of later issues.

Last note… people here tout Ayre electrics as killer most often. I’ve only heard it in arrangements wherein the sound was so dry and calculating it never grabbed me at all. Always with speakers of $18 to $30K. highly resolving, quite detailed yet just another ho hum affair.

All I could see was ‘potential’ for one pair of the speakers that were the orig Sophias..

Consequently, what size room the Sabrina’s will work well up to is a real curiosity. For the moment, as it is for any speaker system, naturally. I do so dig the WAS Sabrina/Sophia esthetic and overall size. Its electric numbers IMHO aren’t thrilling.
Thanks much.

@blindjim 

Hi Jim,

No, I've never heard the Sabrina's with Mbl electronics. Have heard them with several different ARC pieces and the D'Agostino gear, both were very good to me. D'Agostino is unaffordable for me though.

From the Mbl site, they call them an "omni directional speaker". The sound is somehow everywhere. A person can stand in front of one speaker but it does not seem to significantly affect the sound or imaging; pretty amazing. The Nola's, to me, sound a bit more bright and are not quite as special to me as Mbl. This recollection is from the LA Audio show, so whatever model of Nola they were playing.

Sabrina's and room size. At the LA Audio Show, the room was pretty decent sized, say 14' wide and 20-25' deep. Speakers at one end, the audio rack at the other, maybe 9 or 12 seats approximately. It was pretty magical in there. Not I don't write in fanciful audio terms since I am just a lowly aphile' who knows what he likes. Heard them in another smaller hotel room a different year and wow, same deal. Finally, heard them at said dealers place, Sunny Audio, and this is a pretty big room with maybe a half dozen systems in it.  ARC Gsi75 integrated (75 tube watts), Bricasti M1 DAC and Audioquest cable. This is the demo that got me hooked about 2-3 years ago -Sidenote, also heard them at Sunny's in a different room with the new Arcam integrated with room correction. Without room correction it was not very good, with it switched in it was pretty good, but not ARC good. Possibly it could have been as good if it was dialed in better but I couldn't vouch for that. The Arcam was only $3,400. I'm not sure how large a room the Sabrina would work in, but you could call Sunny and ask. His name is Sunil Merchant and his number is  626-966-6259. I've no affiliation and have never purchased from him. But have been to his shop for a number of get togethers. He seems a stand up guy and loves music.

To correct your question, it was not Mac with Sabrina, but Mac with Vandersteen. I have heard Mac with Mbl and I felt it was soft and lacked the sparkle and excitement of a full Mbl speaker and electronics system.

I am at the point that I want to find the synergy and do the "give me it all" option. I don't want to experiment, I just want to get it as good as I can and start enjoying. I'm some ways from making any choice, but I can say, as I may have said to you before, I keep coming back to Wilson Sabrina/ARC and Mbl. They have been the most consistent and pleasing for me.

I do not recall hearing Ayre; may have at a show but don't remember. But based on what you are saying, it may work well with the Vandersteens. I felt the Vandersteens with Mac were a little soft and lacked some of the sparkle or excitement the Sabrina's have with ARC. Supposedly Ayre makes Vandersteen come alive, and that from more than one source. I could tell though that the Vandersteens had significant potential. There were a few tracks played that gave me more of what I was looking for and so I think that with the proper integrated they would sound better. They were very nice top to bottom and never flustered by complex material or rising volume levels. -I do like McIntosh with Martin Logan ESLs. I've heard the SS amps with several of the ML speakers and it was good.

BTW, forgot to mention when I heard the Sopra 2s at their best with PrimaLuna tubes recently, I also heard the ARC Vsi75 with KT150 tubes at the same time and the sound was near identical with the slight advantage to the PrimaLuna.

pokey77 > I am at the point that I want to find the synergy and do the "give me it all" option. I don't want to experiment… , I just want to get it as good as I can and start enjoying. I'm some ways from making any choic….

blindjim > man! Do I hear that! As usual, huge gratitude.

I’m hung up on what I want as the power line and what could be eual or better than that for the power train of my system.

By the time I’m ready & able, they’ll have chips we can have imbedded into our physiology that will produce live concert experiences and we can download anywhere at anytime.

I feel I’d very much like to go with VAC sig preamp and to start with, one 200 IQ amp. Immediately, this is a bit more than a drop in the bucket no matter . how deep the pockets. $42K MSRP. Add another 200 I Q? $14K mor to get to 200wpc from the 100 wpc stereo amp. The 2nd amp is of course, an option.

An alternative view here is using only the VAC sig pre with ??? SS or hybrid amp (s). Master Audio’s Classsic is around the VAC amp cost. PSA BHK 300 amps are similarly priced as the ‘Classic’. Haggle, Vitas, and others in that range are considerations. Even the Boulder 800 series amp, constellation entry level amp, and even on an older brand loyalty frame, BATs latest 655? Is still on the list.

I’ve found a component of speaker and amp combinating is the actual ‘control’ of the drivers using at least, or more than sufficient watts. There is IMHO a notable improvement in SQ and all of its respects. Usually.

It seems regardless the sonic quality coming from the speaker, more often than not, an ‘as’ compentnt amp with more power sounds better. This is of course, plus or minus tube power vs. SS power. It is a better or more fair comparison to look from SS to SS as most tube amps simply don’t always come in the option of 300, 400, 500, or more wpc. As well, SS watts are far cheaper.

Hearing your accounts of what IMO is minimal power of 75wpc as applied to the speakers you point out, is not too surprising, as I don’t know of the listening levels achieved, yet as said, feel mo’ watts would be better. Keeping the same or closely similar quality in the more powerful amp.

In any event quality power equates to quality results. Everytime. Everytime so far in my EXP. The idea of the PL power adds another bolt of zest as does another amp matching you mentioned previously.

I do very much like the idea of coming out of this without having to drop $20 - $25K on speakers and would prefer, in spite of the boring run in periods for new one, buy new speakers, not used. $20K + speakers would have hidden costs as I’m likely gonna want to go see them first and theres that fee too.

Oil well. Hearing your exp has been quite beneficial as it usually is with any actual personal experiences from private owners.

@blindjim 

I have not heard VAC in a good setting but get that they can sound great on the right speaker. Kinda out of my ballpark cost wise.

You wrote: "Hearing your accounts of what IMO is minimal power of 75wpc as applied to the speakers you point out, is not too surprising, as I don’t know of the listening levels achieved, yet as said, feel mo’ watts would be better. Keeping the same or closely similar quality in the more powerful amp". I can tell you the first time I heard this was the ARC GSi75 integrated and it sounds like it has many more than 75 WPC. Myself and others in that room couldn't believe the authority with which it played the Sabrina's. I've only heard at moderate but toe-tapping volumes and all I can say is wow.

You mention Hegel and I like their sound. I heard at three of their products at LAAS: a very nice combo was the $6k integrated with internal DAC paired with KEF Blade 2s. Very nice. Maybe not ARC/Sabrina good but very nice and not fatiguing or outlandish. Just nice music reproduction. They had a demo where they played their new Rost Integrated, switched to the H360 Integrated with built in DAC, then to their reference separates; all with the KEF Blade 2. There was much greater difference between the Rost and the H360 than between the H360 and the reference separates. Was a great demo.

You mentioned Constellation. I've heard some of their gear in an unfamiliar situation. Would like to hear their entry-level integrated paired with Sabrina's or Vandersteen. As you wrote, "In any event quality power equates to quality results. Everytime.". Very much agreed. Heard a friends very nice T+A components work wonders on some Craigslist $300 speakers (don't recall manufacturer). Really, a system is only as good as its weakest link. A $100k pair of speakers with a $1k integrated will sound like the cheap integrated. Not that you have to spend exorbitant sums of $$$, but you need to spend a decent sum to get there. The difference to me in systems in the $5-15k total cost range vs $30-45k systems is huge. Kinda wish I had never heard the more expensive offerings!

@pokey77
Don’t look!! stay out of the big room!!! Always.

Did I hear you say the haegel monos were akin to the sound of older Levinson amps?

Although I’ve heard the Levinson amps sound very nice, they’ve always seemed to polite to my ears. I like the older Krell AB amps better…. Almost. Krell can be a bit strident up top depending on the upstream gear and accessories.

I had a KAV 250 with a Sony ES HT receiver as preamp, and some BW and Monitor audio Gold series speakers until I sprang for the KAV preamp. It sure calmed the Krell amp way down to a more civilized presentation. This was prior to my being convinced wires do matter. .

Another pr of Phase Technology speakers came on board, then another pair but those were Floor standers. Tuff 2ohm loads. BAT vk500 replaced the Krell. VR4 JRs evicted the monitor Audios.

The Thor MK II pre and Dodd monos chased the BAT vk5 & VK500, and a pair of Silverline Sonata IIIs took over the speaker duties.

Its tuff for me to stray far from where I feel the sound actually occurs. At the source and within the amp (s). its where I default to put the largest part of the investment. Thereafter, the better I can manage with speakers, the better things ‘should’ be.

I’d always rather have more ahead of the speakers than in the speakers themselves, ‘if’ I have to choose how to split up the funds.

Heard many of the big rooms........... Since they are so far outside my budget,  no problem. It is the $30-45k total-cost systems that get me dreaming and thinking............

I have not heard the Hegel monos but have heard the reference stereo amp.

How can a cheap $15,000 speaker like the   Vandy Quatro Wood CT be #1 ???

Something that ...ahem... "inexpensive" do better than speakers which cost 3x or 5x as much?

How can a cheap $15,000 speaker like the Vandy Quatro Wood CT be #1 ???

Something that ...ahem... "inexpensive" do better than speakers which cost 3x or 5x as much?

I have a pair of Golden Ear Triton Reference (MSRP $8500/pair). I'm of the opinion they do everything better than most other speakers regardless of cost. And while I certainly haven't listened to every model out there, the most expensive pair I've had the good fortune to audition are Alta Statement Towers. If I recall, they are/were $200K/pair. Considering overall value, I'll keep my Triton's.

Anyway, point is I could certainly believe an "inexpensive" 15K pair of Vandy Quatro Wood CT could perform as well as others costing multiples of that. 

Also, keep in mind whatever speakers one compares an "inexpensive" speaker to could simply be an *overpriced* pair of speakers. 

Has anybody listened to reflector from reference 3a...supposed to be outstanding at around 10k

pokey77 > It is the $30-45k total-cost systems that get me dreaming

blindjim > you and me both!!
You ever get to La hoya in San Diego area? I saw a listing for a dealership there which says they carry YG, Master Audio, Wilson, etc. was just wondering.



randy-11 > How can a cheap $15,000 speaker like the Vandy Quatro Wood CT be #1???

Blindjim > yeah. I wondered that to, briefly, then figured it out. They ain’t the only $15K or so speaker out there that’s ‘subjectively’ besting speakers costing far, far more.

IMHO…. The key word is ‘subjectively’.

Until someone puts some Quatts in whichever room with who knows amps and sources and wires, (all done synergistically speaking) then blindfolds 2000 people and has them all walk in, sit down, and listen, then get up walk out and into another likewise room equiped just as well (synergistically speaking) but with much more expensive speakers and have the same 2000 folks listen again then have everyone vote on which room sounded best, we will never know.

Even then we won’t really know as many will peek. lol

Somewhere on these pages, it was once said quite often, there is an effect that comes with the purchase of upper range equipment. The more expensive it becomes the less ambiguous or objective the buyer remains… or so the discourses usually became. IOW… its hard to get someone who currently owns what ever a thing to say it isn’t very good…. Until they sell it and buy another similar but different thing.

Then too, either there’s the love of it as the ears truly love it, or there is the it’s the best thing ever as its being listed for sale … often by the same folks calling it great.

… and there’s the real world side of the coin. The, ‘In your home’ side which is where one will concentrate on setup, or could, then arrange them to optimize the system synergy and room acoustics… usually this last deal bests a whole lot of dealership listening rooms..

As well, we get very used to hearing our rig. We get to liking what our stereo sounds like. Hearing something new, in a different room is quite a stark contrast and we are out of our comfort zones instantly.

Thereafter, listening to other still more costly speakers is an ‘out of context’ situation. One can only guess at what the far more pricey speakers could sound like in their homes, or recognize immediately system synergy of that particular outfit, or how poorly they sound, as compared to your own really well done or just very familiar rig back at home.

The most fascinating part here is even when one strolls into a dealer’s room where a system is really well setup and the synergy is abundantly evident, that exact same gear in your home is not going to sound identical!!!

We have all experienced these things if we’ve been out and about listening to other rooms and equipment. It never fails.

As much as it is about performance, its about support too. I’d not ever deal with any maker whose attitudes and or service demonstrates positions which are erudite elitist or disparaging of their competition.

There are far, far too many outstanding choices to have to deal with that sort of noise.


Gdhal > I have a pair of Golden Ear Triton Reference (MSRP $8500/pair). I'm of the opinion they do everything better than most other speakers regardless of cost.

Blindjim > congratulations! That line is the whole object of this hobby.

One more factor in comparing $10K speakers to $20K speakers is the ‘point of diminishing returns’.

Anyone who thinks $30K speakers are twice as good as $15K speakers hasn’t ever bought $30k speakers… maybe not even heard $30K speakers. At least they’ve probably not heard a direct contrast with speakers selling for half that amount.

The whole idea of this thread is/was to spot light what $25K buys these days in NEW loudspeakers.

It’s nearly immaterial IMO which pair of speakers land in my house, if they can be bought for $25K or there abouts, I’m certain they will sound fabulous… once the electronics are up to par and the room gets tweaked. Unquestionably.

I prefer cones to panels so I look towards those sorts. I will keep that view until something else vividly changes my mind.

Speakers as always are only as good as what is in front of them, and what is physically, (the room), surrounding them. Period.



nyaudio98 > Has anybody listened to reflector from reference 3a...supposed to be outstanding at around 10k


blindjim > sorry, I’ve never heard of these. Perhaps others here may have some exp with them. I’ve only heard one pr. Of their stand mounts. Briefly.

@blindjim 

I believe you are talking about Alma Music and Audio; I have not had the occasion to visit their facilities. Would be fun. I'll put it on my list.

Blindjim....from your thread you mentioned a good deal on Wilson's might be of interest.  I just purchased some Sonus Faber Amati Traditions so I have a flawless pair if Wilson Audio Duette 2's on sale on this site.

Willgolf > Wilson Audio Duette 2's on sale on this site.

Blindjim > thanks much. I’m looking farther and newer up the food chain. Sorry these would not be of interest to me presently.

blindjim, looks you are still on your search.  I saw you seemed lukewarm at best on the Harbeth suggestion on at least basis of price and need for stands.  I think they sound great, price to performance is subjective but the need for stands is not.  Have you considered several other U.K. designs from ProAc, Spender and PMC?  The current larger floor standers from these companies sound very good to my ears, musical with startling body and placement of voices and instruments.  I could live with them.  For a long time.  I have heard the Wilson models mentioned sound very good with ARC tube gear, I like Vandies with any power, and Vienna Acoustic may be sleeper choice.  Haven't heard the newer Focal or Revel models, but fan of some of their models that have been around a while.  Good listening and good luck.