I have two monitors to start with. The first is the Onix Reference 1. The second is a very lively monitor, the Triangle Titus 202.
I'm pretty sure that the Onix will fill the bill, but the Triangle is such a lively speaker that I just have to try it. If they don't work, I'll sell them and try something else.
Cpapace, I don't understand the comment you made. Could you explain. Maybe I've missed something. |
Looking to by a speaker for the kids room. Zu Soul looks like fun but can they hold up to prodding? No grills is my concern. |
I'm kind of agreeing with CWazz. I guess the Lores aren't all they are cracked up to be. Seems like the buyers that got the Lores hype them up and then unload them. The hype they created with their posts allows them to sell the Lores at or close to what they paid. Some at a small loss. If the Lores were so good as mentioned in their posts why upgrade? To me it seems like the buyers of the Lores initially were really excited like when anyone buys something new, raves about them, and then when that newness wears off they buy something else. The speaker just isn't good enough to hold onto it seems. I almost bought into the hype machine. I'm relieved that I didn't. |
zman im guessing he was talkng about me |
I want to make clear that the Lore is a stunning speaker to 40hz. It's not hype on my behalf. But for $1000 used, I'm sure I can find something out there that comes close with a little eye appeal.
And with a sub as bottom end.
It could be that I will look around and test different speakers and come back to a used pair of Lores with some wood veneer. The sonics aren't the issue.
It's just time for a change.
I do want to say that everything that has been said about the Lore is true... Except the 30hz thing. |
For the record, I love the Lore and will buy a new pair when I settle in CA. I have moved several times in my life and it truly sucks. It's a HUGE hassle and things often get lost or damaged. I decided to NOT put myself through that. This time I am selling everything I own and buying new. I will repurchase the Lore and this time swing for the up charge of a different finish. |
Jedinite - I don't believe the numbers add up to support what you're saying. I've seen very few for sale, and of the 3 I listed earlier 2 are planning to buy Tekton again after they sell.
I have seen many more Omens for sale (including mine), although I'm sure there have been many more Omens sold than Lores.
I do agree with what you said about "initially were really excited like when anyone buys something new, raves about them, and then when that newness wears off they buy something else." This will never change. To many, this hobby is all about buying and selling, trying new things.
My personal opinion about you not buying into the hype - You may have lost out on experiencing a really good speaker that is hard to beat for the price.
FWIW - I think it's important for people like cwazz to post and check/balance the banter, else these forums would be no more than advertizing for your latest purchase. If you look at my posts back in April I was trying to check the Tekton homers, until I got a pair for myself. |
Anyone here a speaker builder? My favorite thing to do is to find lost gems that sound better than the price might indicate. I am currently building a set for a friend. I actually am using the same tweeter used in the m-more. Very nice for the price and also using a low cost 10inch woofer. My friends is on a budget and so far the system sounds great. He came over and listened to it. He said his brother just bought a bose system and the setup I'm building just blows away his brothers system. I know! Most of use know Bose just is not very good. But it was neat to see a non audiophile hear a non box store set of speakers and hear the difference.
I shot a frequnecy response yesterday and the crossover does need some refinement, but so far so good. |
Well said Sebrof. Very good observation. |
like i posted many times before ,, i like my lores i bought the bubinga finish ,, very sharp looking , but ..but the measurements that are posted on the website do not add up , im talking about the low end , they are fine speakers , it is just some went off on how they are worth 10x the price , i did not get that statement then and still dont . saying all that i am keeping my lores , im not selling them off for the next great thing to come along .i just laugh when you here someone make these unbeleiveable claims about any product . thats what i was talking about when i mentioned ,,the hype about these speakers. |
Cpapace, I've built some speakers and really enjoyed it. Next on my list was a full range + tweeter, like the speakers being discussed here.
But when you price out the parts to build them, including Eminence full-range drivers, tweeters, "crossover" parts, cabinet materials, veneer, misc. hardware, and so on, you realize that these folks are not making much money selling these things for $800-1000. Compared to many commercial builds, you really get a lot of raw materials for your money. |
even if we all had the 'identical' make and model gear and played 'identical' sources we would not have identical outcomes. quite simply that is because of the differences in each of our individual situations. we have different rooms, different electrical circuits, etc., and we hear differently. our experience is our personal interaction with the 'objective' reality and the outcome is uniquely our own. it does not exist nor is it relevant without our perceptions. blessed is the person who has clarity of the factors that shape their own perspective and understand and actualize their own preferences without diminishing the validity of any other person's genuineness. i think if you are enjoying the music you must be enjoying your life. forgive my rant. |
Here, here Wsifu!
And a quick response to Cwazz. It is true that some people can be over exited about a product. But I wll say that I've heard several speakers. And with out a doubt the lores or m-mores, and I've heard both are really very good for the money. Not that there are not other products that sound great at that price. But there are some pretty expensive speakers that in my humble opinion are over priced for what you get. I'm glad though that you are an owner and have personal experience with an opinion as opposed to someone who has an opinion on the sound without the experience of the speaker.
On building speakers it's addictive. Even if you build a great sounding speaker that you would be really pleased with keeping. There is always something about trying something different. Or seeing what you can do to improve. Much like owning a speaker. There is no perfect speaker.
|
I can say I'm still very happy with my Lores. I would also like to say that I now understand the full bass response of the Lores after doing a lot of work positioning them - and they DO make right down to about 30 hz if they're getting the right room reinforcement. In my case, it was a matter of just a very few inches placement that made the difference between the bottom being 40hz and 30hz. I don't use a subwoofer for music anymore, no need. I do turn the subwoofer on for movies, though, as those really low frequencies are needed for enough impact.
The dynamics of the Lores are as addictive as their tone and nuance. For this reason, the Pendragons are quite tempting. I'd like even more dynamics without giving up the overall sound of the Lores, and I'm sure the Pendragons go a long way there. But I'm very happy with where I am right now, and not interested in going a different direction for quite some time at last.
Over on one of the audiocircle threads about the Lores, a guy described a series of cabinet and driver frame dampening he did that really improved imaging/clarity. I plan to try that soon, but man I'd be surprised if it could make things that much better.
Are the Lores the best speakers ever - definitely not. Are they worth $10K? I have no idea, as I've never had speakers of that caliber in my system at home. I can say that they're way better than any other speaker I've had in there, including Tyler Acoustics monitors, Hornshoppe Horns, Omega Hemptones, Klipsch Lascalas, and Zu Druids. They don't have the dynamics of Klipsch, nor the complete coherency of the 4" Hornshoppe single drivers, but they have the best combination of tone, dynamics, frequency extension, microdynamics and nuance, large soundstage, and competent imaging of any speaker I've heard in my system. |
Room reinforcement happens in every room. But pushing your speakers closer to the front wall and corners are a compromise. Every wall is a support for bass. But you give up quality to get quantity in doing so.
Bloated bass and you loose the depth of your soundstage.
Thier are serious listeners and cassual listaeners.
A casual listener normaly has his system in the livingroom with a home theater right in the middle of his speakers.
With the furniture placed here and there.
For them, the pushing a speaker back to get bass is ok and works fine.
The serious listener usually has a music room devoted to his system. With room treatments and minimum furniture.
Laser towing and to the inth measuring to get everything as good as possible.
For this person, pushing the speaker closer to the wall is just not an option. He wants the purity of the speaker and will sacrifice bass for it.
Now, if that person wants more bass, the sub-woofer is the answer.
The right sub-woofer I might add.
For some reason their are a lot of people that look down thier nose at a sub-woofer. In fact, they might think thier better than the person that uses a sub because he can push his speaker closer to the wall and not have to use a sub.
The fact is, a sub-woofer is a fantastic tool. It allows me complete control over my bass and I keep the clean bass and deep soundstage that is very important to me.
I am a no comprimise listener that would rather use a tool than to comprimise quality.
The Lore done a lot of things right, but once you've had 20hz clean bass response, the pushing the speaker to the wall just wont do.
This is my rant. |
Wow, what a thread!!
This thread has convinced me to try out a pair of lores to see what a full range driver based speaker can do.
Though some of you do need to take this thread with a grain of salt and not take it so seriously. This is a fun *hobby* after all. |
Zman, I suppose I would be a casual listener by your definition. I have found a positioning of the Lores in my room that does not have bloated bass at all, has just as articulate of bass as when the speakers were a little farther out into the room, but it goes down to the full 30 hz. Now, as for soundstage, I'm sure you're right that I'm sacrificing soundstage depth. I guess that's a compromise of having the system in my living room. That said, I'm a bachelor, living alone, and have the ability to make of my living room what I want. In this case, I do have quite a lot of room treatment (including absorption panels in front of TV when not watching it), and furniture is comfortably arranged in ways that make it a nice lounge as well as decent sound. Is it fully fully optimized, no, probably not. It's not been compromised for the needs of a family, though!
Also, I totally agree with you about a subwoofer being an excellent tool. In fact, before I had the Lores, I had Hornshoppe Horns, which needed subwoofer support all the way up to probably the 80-100hz range. In that case, I was using a subwoofer along with an active EQ customized for the sweet spot. With the Lores well positioned for quality bass response, I don't feel like I'm lacking anything until I'm sub-30hz without a subwoofer. I'd say that's pretty good, but it does make me curious about the Pendragons, and I wonder if you could get away with less wall reinforcement in the bass area with them.
Ok, that's it for my ranting response. |
Zman did get me thinking and motivated to further explore positioning. I did a lot of positioning work a while ago to get the right room reinforcement for quality and quantity bass. Yesterday I gave up the bass quest entirely and embarked on a quest for soundstage depth. I moved the speakers out into the room about 2 feet more and about a foot further from the sidewalls. Indeed, the soundstage depth expanded greatly, and the bass suffered. I think I'll keep it in this configuration for a while, as I have the space with my current setup. It's not as nice and tidy as when the speakers were closer to the corners, but I do like the much much greater soundstage depth. It's helping a lot with both my high quality recordings as well as the lower quality ones - the music has more room to "breath", so the layers of the music aren't compressed on top of each other nearly so much.
As a result, I have re-engaged my subwoofer with room EQ, and while the bass isn't as coherent and will take me a while to tweak until it's just right, it's there in the right quantity to keep the system full-range. I'm not having much trouble with the speakers disappearing for the most part, although I bet some high quality monitors may do a better job of that. I do intend to do the cabinet and driver resonance tweaks, which I am told should reduce the sound of the cabinets and help them to disappear even more. |
I used a bag of lead and sand on top of the Lore's to eliminate cabinet resonance. The imaging was much improved over not having the bags on.
Just a thought until you can do the cabinet tweek.
Genjamon, I knew there was a serious listener in there.8;) |
Question: have Lore or Omen owners ever paired these FRD speakers with low-powered solid state amps? I'm thinking specifically about a 40-watt Peachtree idecco. My father-in-law (not an audiophile, but audio-curious) asked me to put together a $2K 2-channel system that works with all his sources including the cable box, Blu-ray player, and his ipod. The idecco seems a great match for his sources and lifestyle, but clearly its MOSFET amp section is not the finest to to found. I'm thinking that we could make the most of it, though, by pairing it with an efficient FRD. The fact that Peachtree chose to exhibit its Nova (80 watts) with Zu Essences at a show a couple of years ago makes me think that the idecco and Lore combo might not suck (given all the compromises we're making to provide functionality and meet budget.)
Whaddya think? |
Cymbop. I have had the exact same question. Will the idecco be enough to drive the Lore's at a high volume? |
I had 18watts per channel driving them very loud. |
Has anyone tried to replace the Eminence Legend B102 drivers with something different (e.g. Eminence's other series)? I've wondered how much of an upgrade will the Lore have with the B102 is replaced with a more expensive driver. If it makes a difference, I would ask Eric to give us options to choose what drivers to install. There are several Eminence 10" drivers that are more sensitive than the Legend B102. |
Don't let the price of the Eminence drivers worry you. Being one of the largest driver manufacturers in the world and the b102 a classic means they make 1000s of them for Marshall and Fender and other pro audio oems etc...... Economy of scale |
The idecco was used by Zu to demo the Omens so the Lores will be fine, don't forget the Zu Souls on special for $999 in the mix.
These speakers are 97+db sensitive and a really easy load as they don't drop below 6 ohms. 40w drive them to sound levels that a "normal" 91db speaker with 200w can achieve.
You'd be surprised with high efficient designs...... It's the quality of the first watt that matters as 90% of your listening will only require 1-2w |
So would an Eminence Red Fang series (3x the cost of B102) make a sound improvement and by how much? Does anyone know what drivers are used in the Pendragons as they look different from the B102 in the Lores? |
Johncdnt - If the replacement drivers are more sensative then you'd need to compensate for that. I suppose with more sensative tweeters or L Pads or something.
Also I would think that the cabs etc were designed specifically for the B102, no? |
Cymbop: I have a pair of Omens as well as an iDecco. The iDecco normally lives on my desktop connected to a pair of Era D4s. I've tried the iDecco with the Omens a few times now and it sounds just ok. To be honest, I much prefer the 2wpc Bottlehead S.E.X. amp with the Omens. But while the iDecco is less than stellar with the Omens, it is quite good with the D4s on my desktop. |
Jwidd: Yes, the iDecco will drive the Omens to an uncomfortably high volume level without clipping. |
Gpowered:
I believe you sold your Pendragons, correct? Do have your Lores anymore? I am interested to hear your thoughts on how the Pendragon compares to the Lores. Thanks. |
He sold the Pendragons already!!??? |
|
why he sell them? What , he find the latest ,greatest speaker of all time for the money ,,,again!? |
No, I think he got a good deal on another pair of
speakers, and while he liked the Pens, he liked
the other speakers better, and had an offer on his, so
he let them go. |
You know what, I just plugged in my new Lore's and I'm pretty impressed with what I'm hearing?!? I can even hear them opening up as I listen..."2 hours, so far!"
I really didn't know what to expect since I was moving from one of Danny Richie's speakers "AV123 X-Statix"
Liquid, Detailed "although I can't tell if they are more detailed than the open baffles yet?!?",Tight Bass "placement is kind of a b%^ch so far", Accurate, Musical. These are just some of the things I'm experiencing as I listen.
I'll keep everyone posted!
: )
GEAR:
Pre: Dodd Tube Buffer - 6H30-DR Tubed, 12v Battery Operated
Amp: Dodd Audio EL84 2 Channel 34wpc Prototype - JJ EL84, Tele E88CC, 12v Battery Operated "Coming Soon"
DAC: PopPulse "Modded" Bur Brown PCM-1796
Phono Pre: Dodd Audio Tube "Gary's First circa 1980" Ha!
TT: Pro-Ject Debut III - Jury is still out on this thing?!? |
Hey guys! I suppose I need to clarify a few things. Telescope is right on.
My dealer buddy ended up taking on trade a pair of Greybeard KB 2/1 speakers and offered them at an insane price because the co. is out of business and frankly, most people have not heard of the company. The Greybeard KB's 2/1s sold for $9K back in 2000, and the cabinets alone likely cost $2K to build - 2" thick would and finished in slate. Also, all scan speak drivers/tweeter and they have quite an addicting sound as well. Knocking on the cabinet is like hitting a stone wall, lol!
In many ways the Pendragons were the best speaker I have owned. While the sound completes with many $5-$10K speakers, the build quality of course does not. The build quality is good though
just not quite at the level of a serious high end speaker. But +they are not far off! I think adding Black Hole dampening would just set these apart and be the icing on the cake. The good thing about Eric is, as a custom builder, he could do it if someone was willing to pay the premium. And the only reason I say this is because I now own a speaker with a bullet proof cabinet.
The Pendragons recreate the "live" sound amazingly well (better than my Greybeards)! and the bass had the most impact and slam out of all of the speakers I have owned. The bass is also very tight, and in fact on the last day before packing them I was seriously rethinking and regretting my decision to sell them but they were just not the best fit for my room. Although my room was likely just big enough, due to the layout, I have to sit about 5-6.5ft from the speakers and they are just not really designed for that.
As far as the Lore vs. Pendragon, see my review of the P-dragon in the reviews section. In my room, I likely should have stuck with the Lore. Although it does not have the slam and low end of P-dragon, it is better suited for small to midsized rooms and/or near field listening. In other ways I think the two are quite similar while the Pendragon is completely full range and leaves nothing really on the table, the Lore seemed to get 3D and disappear a little easier but I attribute that to the fact my room was better suited for them and single driver speakers typically do. It is always about tradeoffs.
But make no mistake - the Pendragon is an excellent speaker and my selling them had to do with the timing of the Greybeards and the fact that they were not the best speaker for my room. I did hear that Eric is designing a mini-Pendragon though, and that should be interesting
So there you have it
you know I always call it how it is guys. Hope this helps. -GP |
I have another very relevant point I want to make... some of you remember, I drove my Lores with 25wpc Quicksilver Mini Mites. It was a perfect match and my recollection of the sound was one that was about as perfect as it could have been. That was one SWEET system for $2K! I then had a chance to get the P-dragon at the intro price, and jumped on it... but to make room it meant stepping down in amps (a big gamble), and I then used a XindaK MT-1. The Xindak is also a very nice amp, but I never thought I had the same match as I did with the Quicks... although it was getting better by the day before I chose to go in this new direction. I think with 12 watts and mostly weekend listening
it was just taking a while to break the speakers in.
I now have a Marsh A400s driving my Greybeards, and I "think" I am back to a great matching system again. I have been blessed that most of the time when I make changes, I end up matching equipment well. But I have to say with the P-dragons it was a decent match but I just know it would have been a different animal with those Quicksilvers... FWIW |
ok after reading gpowered latest coment I DEMAND apologies from everyone who slammed me in the past on this thread! |
Cwazz, I certainly think you get to gloat a bit, after following this thread (actually was interested in Zus not Lores). 6 weeks for the Pendragons, and then shunned for a decade old design from a company that's out of business. That might be a record! :)
Might be appropriate to update your review, Gp. :)
Ain't this fun?
John |
Please understand there is nothing in my review of the Lore or the Pendragon that needs to be rectified. Let's have some common sense - NO $2,500 speaker is going to have $10,000 speaker build quality, but in case of the Tekton's they do rival much more expensive designs in sound! That's where Cwazz and I differ! I could have easily stayed with either speaker had I not chosen a different path. And a 10 year old design or not, keep in mind that the Greybeard speaker I have now retailed for $9K back in 2000, which means $15K today... and in allot of ways P-dragon beat it. It just wasn't the best speaker for my room. I think that is a tremendous testimony.
Here is the bottom line: regardless if the product is exceptional or just plain good, whether it is $1K or $20K, the newness always wears off and the temptation to move on to something else arises (some of us worse than others).
I for one am not afraid to make changes... I've been doing this long enough to know I can just as easily put another fine system together. Just ask my wife... lol. |
09-03-11: Cwazz
"ok after reading gpowered latest coment I DEMAND apologies from everyone who slammed me in the past on this thread!"
NEVER!!
; )
. |
From your review of the Pendragon, Gp: Bottom line thus far: this new P-dragon has the potential to be the best speaker I have heard! It is leaving nothing to be desired. The fact that you sold them in 6 weeks (!) might give readers an interesting perspective on your statements. ;) Certainly one can see why readers of this thread and the review would be surprised, no? Anyway, enjoy! John |
Wow, Gpowered....... just wow. Are you aware that you now have zero credibility? |
If I could make a profit and try something interesting, I'd sell my pronounced best speaker too!!!
I thought GP done a great review of the Pendragon. And his comments on the Lore were spot on.
So give him a break, his zest for something good and zeal to share with others is a bennifit to all.
Gpowered, I hope you aren't discouraged by anyone.
I might sell my Corvette if a Ferrari came along at a great price. |
Restless_times: really? Was my Lore review that far off? Did you not say that you were going to purchase a second pair you liked them so much? Did my review help you in making that purchase decision? Then why would you doubt my Pendragon review... ? If anything this should give it even more credibility, as this will hush the naysayers who accused me off being affiliated with Tekton Design.
Word to the wise: do not even consider length of time somone keeps something... it is irrelevant. |
> Word to the wise: do not even consider length of time somone keeps something...
> it is irrelevant.
Irrelevant? Let's not get carried away.
There are certainly exceptions, but I'd suggest that when most of us find a piece of gear that really clicks, we keep it for considerably longer than six weeks.
Obviously, we respect your right to buy and sell as you wish, but to sell equipment so soon after describing it with such a fervor makes me think you're a really fickle 'phile!
Which is to say a bit farther down that path than the rest of us loons. ;-) |
Hi. I got hear the Pendragon's last week. It is to bad we all don't live close enough to get a demo.
I think anyone hearing them would really enjoy them and give them a big thumbs up :)
And I yes I think they would compete with speakers costing much more. I've heard some pretty expensive ones.
But I will say this. They are definatley bigger and may not be for every room. When you walk into the that is what you would notice.
My listening room is simply too little for a speaker that size. So, I would rather have the lore or m-lore for my setup. Great sounding yes! Has the bass, Yes! Price point for what you get wow! wow! wow! Size, big for my room size.
As for the finish. I agree the standard finish is not typical of many hi fi speakers.
In speaking with Eric you realize that what he is trying to do is to bring top quality sound at an affordable price point. So the looks may not be quite as interesting as some other products on the market, but the sound is there and more :)
PS I am almost finished with my latest project. I shoot some picturs when I'm done. I hope to do at least 2 more speaker projects before it gets too cold or snow outside. I love the cold,but without a garage my speaking building is limited to the summer.
We need a new thread. Great sound speakers for under $3000. Just Joking |
SIX, 6 weeks!! not even time for them to be fully broken in . I stand by all of my comments on this thread , PLEASE go back and read them . Then read Gpowereds . Zman , you say "so give him a break, his zest for something good and zeal to share with others is a bennifit to all." Really , he does?? How does it benefit me that he proclaimed the Lores the greatest speaker , then sells them , buys the Pendragon , proclaims even better the the Lores then in six weeks sells them?? I do not know if he is fickle or is just a frustrated stereo reveiwer. |
Steidlguitars: fair enough. Obviously the product was good enough to WOW me and that is not easy. There are not many products that have excited me like that... and I've had way too many!
Listen carefully to Cpapace comments - reconciles nicely with my review...
Cwazz - you and both know you are NOT interested in P-dragons anyway so what's your point? Enough with the games... my actions do not "magically" make your comments become any more or less genuine than they are were before. |
Cwazz, I don't normaly say things like this. But you have proved yourself worthy.... You're an ideot! |
