Since Audiogon is an audiophiles forum I dont intend to get involved in using it as a conversational tool with other manufacturers.
I also can only speak of what I know, which is Zu, not the products of other manufacturers. If there was an implication in my post that another manufacturers loudspeaker produces more distortion than ours, that certainly wasnt intentional does it really come across in that way? (I dont think it does).
The idea of a golden-eared reviewer being enticed to do any one-on-one shoot-out is fanciful and pointless what matters is what customers think, not reviewers. Last time I checked, reviewers had a pulse, which is to say theyre human and possessed of the same subjective sensibilities as the rest of us so just because a reviewer might like something doesnt mean someone else doesnt, and vice versa.
We dont design our loudspeakers to look good in measurement tests we design them to sound great playing music. More than a few times Ive come across people who say that a fantastic live gig is nothing to do with measurements and all to do with dynamics. That sense of live is what we strive to achieve with Zu more than enough people think we do it very well and that makes us happy, because theyre happy.
We offer a 60 day money-back trial for anyone wanting to hear Zu in their own home, playing their music. If they love it, great, if they dont, thats fine. What matters is, theyve tried us out.
Thats the only shoot-out that matters.
Sincerely
Simon |
|
Well, I for one think Zu is just fantastic, being on
my personal 3rd pair I cannot say I have ever been
happier with a single company's speaker. Right now
I am listening to Cassandra Wilson from another room
at pretty loud volume, and it sounds like she is really
in there, just awesome. And that's on 15 minute new
speaker cables! I found the right match there synergy
wise for sure.
Having said that, I have a semi local guy above in this thread who wants to bring over a Pair of the Tekton Lores
so we can hear both. And, I am contemplating a purchase
of one of Tektons speakers for the heck of it, although
at this point...I really don't see the point as my feeling
is they will be more alike than not. But who knows, we'll
see what the Lores do if we get together.
To be fair though, I have the Omen Defs, which were a huge
jump from my standard Omens, so I'm sure certain areas
of comparison would not be fair. Lores should go
head to head probably with the standard Omens.
Long live Zu and Tekton!! |
Quick query: Anyone tried the Lores from a 4 feet listening distance? Wondering how they will do at a nearfield listening distance.
Thanks,
UL |
Hello UL - Don't want to make your own, eh? (Referencing the other forum). I was going to post over there but the DIY guys really took the thread over.
I have the Lores about 6 - 7 feet from my head and I think they sound great at that distance. I'd try 4' but I'd have to rearrange, move them closer together, etc. so I'd rather not. 4' might be a little close but I personally think they would do fine, especially because of the full range design.
As I've said before in this thread and elsewhere, I think these are a real bargain. I know your original budget was a bit higher than their price, but don't be mislead by that. And there is a return policy so worth a try.
Hope this helps. |
Irish - the thread is called Zu Omen v Tekton Lore.
We had been waiting for someone to compare the 2, and finally soneone did!
Now I am sure ZU speakers are excellent compared to most conventional speakers in their price range (though not really apples to apples), but the truth here, was that 3 men - one of which has a pair of Wilson's, hence high expectations - unanimously decided that Omen was no competition for Lore. 3 MEN!!! with NO bias toward either brand. In fact, one of them owns Omens and was seriously disturbed when he realized he would now have to place an A'gon ad as a result of this conclusion!
One of claimed he become agitated by the one notey bass
The other is selling his Omens now
The other just didn't think it was close
So my suggestion to you - stop posting here and go build a better $1K speaker! Is that not what it's all about??? Someone else has raised the bar.
And I wish you many blessings from above in doing so - you are up against talented competition.
Hint: you may have to cut your OH and/or marketing expenses |
FYI - I posted a Lore review (in the reviews section). |
Paul- can you tell me what you listed it under? I don't see Tekton as a choice... perhaps you just made it and it hasn't shown up yet?? |
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1306118085&read |
Took me a minut to find it also. It' not in the product reviews section. It's in this sub section.
Also new pics of the lore in red and white. Also an unamed new design on the blog
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1306118085 |
Gpowered,
Not sure if you found it but under his post it has a link for reviews. Just click that |
|
finally haha.. now to decide between white and red... what do you guys think?
the new lores look crazy... who's planning on getting them? |
I wonder why this thread is so long. Are these very special speakers? |
And does anyone think the Tektons would be OK on the long wall of a 22x14 foot room, with me about 8 feet from the speakers and the back of the speakers about 1.5-2 feet from the wall behind them? Amp is an Edge NL12.1 (300 wpc).
Thanks. |
no , they are not special speakers ,, nice but not special. |
They are indeed fanatastic speakers - punch WAY above their weight class. It does everything minus the weight and low end/extension of much larger speakers, yet it holds its own. Most of us are using low powered tubes with these. Put a decent and well matching front end on them in a small to medium sized room, and they have the potential to be the last speaker you buy... but if you crave 20Hz bass or have a huge room... you may want to look at the new Lore-based speaker. |
Hey guys. I ordered my new MTM T3 Lore-based speaker tonigh so in due time we will have some feedback on the new model!! |
That is awesome! When do you think you will receive them? |
He said about 3 weeks, so figure about 4-5 tops. Pretty neat process though - he's actually having me measure my avg. ear height in my listening chair and he's going to make the tweeter cutouts to match that height. Also, my pair will be front ported, as that's what I prefer and Eric wanted to do the production version that way anyway. I like to feel the pressure in the room, plus front ports are much easier and more forgiving when it comes to placement.
I am really enjoying buying speakers from Eric. Where else can you go and spend "sane" $ and have somone build a custom speaker to YOUR liking. Great stuff!! |
Gpowered,, why are you getting new speakers ,I thought you found nirvana with the Lores? |
I absolutely dig the Lores! This is an upgrade. My room is a bit on the large side so I should benefit from the 2nd 10" driver and the 3 tweeter array. From what Eric is telling me, the Pendragon (the name of the new Lore-based speaker), is going to have similar voicing/sonic character as the Lore, but with allot more impact/dynamics, and better clarity since 1 driver doesn't have to fo all the work. It also extends down to 20HZ!!!
By the way Charlie - check out the Tekton blog, and you will see measurements of the Lore. It clearly extends down to 30Hz, so this is proof that the perception of lack of weight is definitely based on some bias or room node. I was shocked by the measurements! But I am sure the new Pendragon will certainly have all the weight and then some. Stay tune for my review in a month or so!!
P.S. Have you dumped or updraded that Hafler/Counterpoint combo yet??? |
I have seen the measurements and they are just that , measurements . Meaurements that are posted on Tekton website , beleive what you want ,I'll beleive my ears .
How much are the new speakers?
No I am still looking for a new amp/preamp or intergrated . |
I know what you mean - the Lores are a very clean bass and not designed to have artificial "fullness." I've owned many speakers that sounded more "weighty", but few have matched the articulation/accuracy of the Lore's bass.
I think you would be a good candidate for the new speaker - Eric is telling me that the weight and bass is just incredible. I believe it, and it better be for a 54" tall speaker with 2! 10" drivers. He is selling it for $2K as the introductory price. But I know that's not cheap to most of us, yet it is very reasonable when compared to the speakers out there that sell in that range - at least for now on paper anyway. Time will tell...
Let me know what amp/integrated you decide to go with. I still believe you haven't really heard the Lores yet. Good to hear from you C... |
Oh and Charlie, I agree... it is all about the sound qaulity, but I would be careful in "trusting" the ears when it comes to hearing specific frequencies. This is where measurments are MUCH MORE accurate (assuming the measurment is done correctly). My ears can believe I am hearing 30Hz, when it is really 50 if you know what I mean.
It sounds like you are a guy that really likes slam and dynamics. If so, then unless you are in a smallish room, you will surely benefit from another driver. Bass authority is done best with a dedicated bass driver. With that said, the Lore is FANTASTIC consider that driver is doing 30Hz - 3KHz. Simply astonishing... now imagine what it will do when it's crossed over to a dedicated mid? That's where the Pendragon comes into play! Lore on sterioids!!! |
well some of us just simply buy Erics new speaker when he introduces a new one . I really don't think you know what I mean when I state I am not happy with the low end but that is ok . Good luck with the new speakers and chasing nirvana! |
Yes, I know what you are trying to say Charlie. I am just trying to give you some facts and insights. If it's not enough for you, then so be it we are all unique in what we perceive as high end sound. If it were me, I would try some different scenrios in the room and on the front end. Not sure why anybody would sit there and just not be happy ... ?
But as far as chasing nirvana, remember I have downsized from a $13K+ rig at one point. This is all for fun and to get some reviews on a speaker that some may be more reluctant to try since it is a little more expensive. It is also a better fit for my room. Stay tuned! |
Gpowered,
Did Eric mention what makes the new speaker similar to the lore? It appears to be different in most ways. Different drivers, multiple tweeters, crossovers, etc... |
Hi. I thought I would pipe in. It's no secret I'm a fan of tekton. I've actually done some art work for Eric and done some recent videos. But let me take a step back for a moment. I'm also a hobbiest speaker builder. I am by no means a professional builder, but it is relaxing and fun. I've only been building speakers for 3 years or so.
So here is my personal take on speakers in general.
1# Measurements are very important. They are a scientific and mathimatical way of double checking what I'm doing. They really help when I'm am building crossovers. Doing it by ear alone is very hard to do. Well, for me impossible. I also use mathematics to determine box, port, and stuffing size.
2# Everyones ears are built a little different, and so we have to have a way to determine certain things. My ears certainly hear subtle differences that vary from others. An even playing field is very important, again accurate measurements help that.
3# Rooms are different, again measurements really can help.
4# Choosing the right combo of drivers to work together is also important. In my opinion no crossover / box size can overcome a bad combination.
#5 Experience. No matter what design I come up with Eric has some extra knowledge that improves my design and overall sound.
#6 A flat response does many things, but one important thing it does in my opinion is to make sure that a certain frequency is not out of kilt/over powering another frequency. In otherwords it makes the speaker sound more natural. Now if I'm watching a movie and want un-realistic thumping of bass to rock my seat then sure. Give me the BASS!!! But if I want a more realistic / believable representation of the band being the room with me then a flatter frequency response is a key component. In my humble opinion.
I think you need both hearing and real hard science behind your work.
Of course in the end, if you are happy with your speakers then that is what is important. For me I build a set enjoy then and then build another just for fun. There is no end. Kind of like any other hobby. For some people it's cars, computers, boats, skies etc.. You get the idea.
Back to tekton. Having done some work for Eric. It's always exicting to see his passion, and continual struggle to make a speaker even better. That is hard to find sometimes.
it's all about he sound baby! |
B rodgers - The drivers are also Eminence. It is still a very simple design. He is telling me it is the next step up and very similar sonically to the LORE, but you know Eric - he does not want to get too technical on how he achieved this as it draws attention away from the end result.
I will surely let you know when I get mine. I am also very curious about how he achieved this.
I know which tweeter he is using in this model and it's a very good tweeter. |
Again Gpowered ,some of us have a limited budget and just can not buy things on a whim . That is the only fact that I need to know . Sorry I don't drink the same Koolaid you do.As far as being happy , the Lores were a step backwards in that quest. |
I saw it implied here that the new Lore (Pandragon?) has a "dedicated bass driver". That implies it is a three-way speaker and that is NOT the case - both FRD are run, well, full-range. It is a two-way speaker as is the Lore (or "augmented widebander" or FRD + tweeter or however you want to phrase it).
That comes from Eric. |
Cwazz - Just curious, what speakers were you trying to replace with the Lores?
Has the bass improved any now that they have more hours on them? I'm in a small room so the bass is *almost* too much for me, but I did have them in a larger room (19 x 16 or something) and the bass was still pretty darn good. That was with a 100 watt tube amp (vs a 2A3 SET in my room). |
I received the Lores a few weeks ago and am very impressed with their performance.
My room has poor bass due to room dimensions so I have added my REL Strata III sub, crossed over at a low frequency to avoid muddying the bass of the Lores. I find this fills in the low bass frequencies, impact, and weight very nicely. A subwoofer could be the remedy for those who like more bass.
Eric also mentioned to me that the sound of the Lore is often helped by putting them on hard platforms. This raises the drivers to a better position in relation to ear height for better coherence plus other benefits. My Lores were on a carpeted suspended floor and I put them on concrete flat blocks I already had from Home Depot. As a result, I now have deeper tighter bass, much better clarity, much better spatial information, etc. I found this to be a very significant improvement, providing much more of a "you are there" experience, and recommend this especially if you do not have a hard floor. Precise placement is needed to achieve the optimum spatial benefits. Precise in that 1/16" seems to make a difference. I assume there is better sounding material than concrete, but it is a very inexpensive way to test the benefit of this concept, just a few dollars. Plus I think it looks nice with my Lores in white satin. |
I replaced NHT SUPER ZEROES paired with there sub.
Bass has improved a bit since I had them . Before I get the response that you can't compare a sub to the Lores , I realize that . I did not expect to , but in MY hearing , taste , the Lores do not live up to the claim of 30 hz. Nor do they live up to the NHT's any other way also , truely amazing speaker . |
Cwazz, I found that I needed to get the room involved to get the 30hz from the speaker.
For a long time I felt there was a gap in my lower mids and bass.
I moved the speakers closer to the wall behind the speakers and closer to the walls on the side.
I had rear ported speakers before the Lore and can verify that you can't place a front ported speaker in the same place as a rear ported speaker and get the same performance.
I also toed the Lore in quite a bit to help in the depth of the soundstage.
Hope this helps.
John |
Thanks Cwazz, I was wondering what speakers you had.
I had Paradigm Mini MkIVs at one time with the matching sub and liked them a lot. When I got them (when they were the current model) they were compared a lot against the NHTs. I never heard the NHTs but always thought they must be good speakers because of the direct compares to the Paradigms. The Paradigm sub integrated well with the speakers, I would guess the same goes for the NHTs. |
Cwazz - I am all about diversity and to each his/her own, but that comparison is just silly. I have an NHT sub for HT. NHT makes great stuff! But is not in the same league for music. It is not even designed to be in the same league for music. That's a good thing if you prefer that, because it should save you lots of money down the road since you cannot discern differences in higher end speakers. My wife is that way, and I commend her for that though I do not really get it.
But to say a couple $99 speakers and a sub sounds better than the Lore, is like saying my 2011 Ford Fiesta would outperform a brand new Mitsu Lancer Evolution. The Fiesta gets great gas mileage and handles awesome, but is not an evo, nor is it designed to compete with an Evo.
The fact that you prefer a $99 speaker tells me you either:
Are used to and perhaps after a HT type setup and are more of a background music listener than an actual critical listener (again, nothing wrong with that)
Cannot discern major differences in resolution (because there would be tremendous differences)
Or perhaps you are affiliated with the competition in some way. After such comments one must begin to wonder. You would likely be on an island all by yourself with that analysis :)
Lastly, I can promise you, if my $99 speaker with about $35-$40 worth of parts out performed my $1,000 speakers, you can bet that the $1,000 would have been sent back for a refund the next day.
Again, what is the logic and point of all of this negative feedback? There is certainly NOTHING wrong with you not drinking the same kool aid." But seriously, you are on verge of losing all your credibility with a post like that. I've had many HT based speakers - most sound really good, but they cannot not even come near recreating the live event, nor are they designed to. |
I think it's important not to get too distracted by the impressions of a single person. Clearly, Gpowered and Cwazz are not only listening very differently, but they are at opposite ends of the spectrum in their opinions about the Lores. Not much valuable information can be gathered by an extended discussion among people who clearly are not on the same page to begin with.
I happen to be another person who hasn't been completely satisfied with the bass response in terms of being able to play the Lores full range without any bass support. I was very appreciative of Cpapace's enumeration several posts ago about the different variables at work in bass response. In fact, I wish Eric himself was this thoughtful in his postings about the topic, as I'm sure he understands all that.
I found Eric's blog post on his website about measurements to have a confrontational tone rather than an explanatory one, unfortunately, and somewhat insulting to someone in my position. I definitely don't like peaky or boomy bass. As I've explained in my initial posts, I actually like a very balanced bass sound and go to significant steps to find it. I just like my bass to sound equal in weight to midrange and high frequencies. In my room, with my equipment, this has required subwoofer and equalization as well as room treatment. What's wrong with that!!?? I can tell you I've gone through effort to remove peaks using equalization, and the result is a very articulate bass reproduction. It's nothing like what Eric insinuates on his blog.
The simple fact of the matter is that Cpapace's listed variables can easily combine to a situation where the Lore is weak in the bass department for a given listener and their environment.
It sounds to me like Cwazz isn't interested in experimenting with different electronics to get the most out of the Lores. At the same time, Eric has made it pretty clear through his marketing that he considers the Lores capable of playing great with even mid-fi or inexpensive electronics. What's wrong with Cwazz being a bit upset that this hasn't been the case for him? Still, I would expect he might want to use this forum to explore more options for his situation rather than just running the Lores down the road.
Anyway, I'd rather spend forum time talking about the Lores somewhere between the fanboy and skeptic perspectives. Most of us realize no speaker is perfect, and most of us can talk about both strengths and weaknesses of our speakers and electronics.
I, for one, am very happy with my purchase of the Lores, despite them needing a bit of bass help in my situation. They continue to let me hear deeper and clearer into the music, and to allow me to connect more emotionally to it as well. For the price, they continue to be a grand bargain. I'm just mad that Eric has now created an upgrade option to tempt me. I wanted to just remain happy and uninterested in upgrading the Lores for a very long time. |
Genjamon - much more thoughtful and value added response compared to what I initially posted Thanks.
I've spoken to Eric numerous times and I don't believe he meant for his blog entry to come off as insulting or arrogant. I know he takes his work very seriously (probably too seriously) and he was probably attempting to put a nail in the coffin with that post. I agree that the Lores are not what I would consider the most "full" or weighty or rich sounding speaker Ive had, but at the same time I didn't think they were lacking in that area. But again, I think we can all agree that it is asking allot of a single 10 FRD to give us everything.
I am, however, very interested in hearing what the new Pendragon can do - it is designed to be an extremely dynamic and heavy hitting speaker. I am hoping that it will be everything the Lore is plus what the Lore cannot do due to physics, etc. Honestly though, and from speaking to Eric, I am sure the lore is still the bread and butter and best value in the line. I chose to take the plunge, but as I mentioned I was very reluctant to make this move because the Lore was a speaker I could have stayed with. I am not looking back though... I will post on them soon! |
OK for the LAST time please read all my postings before anyone says again I am unhappy with the Lores . I just accept them for what they are ,a thousand dollar speaker , not miracles wonders, with a added comment that they do not have the weight (thanks genjamon) that I was expected , told, they would have . Otherwise I do like them .They ,for the most part though , have been a lateral move for me. I am not trying to run anyone down the road .
Gpowered , I am not a HT guy ,far from it actually. Gpowered please look into the Stereophiles archive reccomended issues for NHT SUPER ZEROES with the sub . They are compared to , speakers ten times their cost ,, for what that is worth . They are not just for HT . I know if I check your earlier post you compare the Lores to speakers costing thousands more .I beleive you actually called them the best AND,last speaker you would own .
I would love to be able to have multiple amps , preamps to compare with the Lores , but as everyone knows here this not a inexpensive hobby . I have I beleive in my original post , ask for suggestions on what electronics, cables to use. I am still open for suggestions. |
Sorry I misinterpreted your position a bit, Cwazz. I know in your earlier posts you had positives to say about the Lores in addition to being unsettled about the bass performance. When you said "As far as being happy , the Lores were a step backwards in that quest." in one of your last posts, I thought you'd become fully dissatisfied with the Lores.
I'm not really familiar with your electronics, but others have insinuated there may be better pairings with the Lore. I'm curious if others could make some general recommendations for improvement, those with greater familiarity with what you have right now. |
I've heard the Lores on a 2A3 SET, a 100 watt EL34 integrated, and a 200 watt SS (Carver) and tube preamp.
Both tube amps sounded very good with the Lores, the SS amp was a non-starter. As soon as we hooked it up we knew we needed to disconnect it.
Cwazz had a 35 watt tube amp and still had light bass, so my guess is that it could be a number of things:
1. His hafler preamp is the culprit
2. He's used to a sub
3. His room has a suck-out that is compensated by the sub
4. What is prodigious bass to me is light bass to him
Cwazz - How high do you turn the NHT sub up when playing music. I mentioned the Paradigm monitors/sub I used to own, and when playing music I would have the volume on the sub just barely turned up. 7:00 was all the way down, I would turn it to 8 or 9 and be fine with bass. If your sub is turned up to say 10 or 11:00 then it indicates to me that the system/room is light on bass to your taste. |
no need to be sorry Genjamon , I agree with most you say on the post for Lores |
In my 16x25 room with vaulted ceiling the Lores are not light. 20 Hz? Well, no kidding, of course not. But they are quite well-balanced and bass is decent even for rock. I wouldn't use a sub if I had one. They are only 6" from the front wall (the near corner of each).
I think it is appropriate for Eric to be proud with the speaker's bass response and, frankly, he's right: there are lots of people that are used to/like/need an overripe midbass. The Zu Defs, despite extending lower, obviously, had similar bass characteristics: that is, neutral.
Cwazz, I have no idea what your room sounds like; none of that is directed at you.
The thing is, below 60-80 Hz the room is such an important component that no general conclusions can be drawn without considering it. |
"I know if I check your earlier post you compare the Lores to speakers costing thousands more. I beleive you actually called them the best AND,last speaker you would own."
Yes! And they could have very wel been, if it wasn't for the upgraditis :)
"I would love to be able to have multiple amps , preamps to compare with the Lores , but as everyone knows here this not a inexpensive hob."
Cwazz - do what most of us do, sell your front end, and buy something different for equivalent $ that is a better match. What exactly do you have again so we can make recommendations? You definitely have to be willing to take some chances. It may seem like I have all thos money to burn - I do not. I am just using $ I have brought in from equipment I have sold. I agree I do not have the money to go nuts - especially being a young family with 3 children |
Sebroff I apreciate the help , the 35 amp was actually a intergrated amp. I am use to the sub woofer.I had volume at 8-9 depending on the music. |
06-06-11: Cwazz
"Sebroff I apreciate the help , the 35 amp was actually a intergrated amp. I am use to the sub woofer.I had volume at 8-9 depending on the music."
Couldn't make it easy, eh Cwazz :)
The 35 watt tube integrated amp sounds like it should have been a pretty good match, and it does eliminate the Hafler so, well, ummm...I got nuthin' man. Sorry. |
well sebrof the tube amp did cahnge the sound , but it just wasnt for me , so the search continues!! |
Cwazz,
Tube amps can sound mighty different. Particular things to keep in mind with them are not only the tubes used but also whether there is negative feeback in the circuitry and the amp's damping factor. Too high a damping factor with designs like the Lores leads to overdamped bass. That may or may not be your problem, but I'd put it on the list of suspects. I loved the Aleph 30 in a DIY speaker of similar design to the Lore. But the damping factor was too high and this seriously impacted the quality and amount of bass I got compared to amps with lower damping factors. Of course there is also the worry of underdamping too, which leads to less controlled, boomier bass.
Might be the speaker, might be synergy with this mystery unnamed tube amp. |
