I've been auditioning speakers in the $5k to $8k range. I liked some of the Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, and even B&Ws in that range. Maybe it was the setup but in the back of my mind thought all of these could sound exciting but also fatiguing long term. And I'd hate to spend that kind of doe with that being the case.
I'm looking to use a solid state Cary amp and the tubed Cary SLP 05 pre for electronics FWIW.
From other threads I'm hearing Proacs Joseph Audio Aerials Harbeth and others may fit the bill. What are your favorite speakers for musicality and lack of listening fatigue? I'll be traveling to the next state to audition more next week.
Wow - just replaced the XLR with Purist Audio Musaues's RCA's. Major tonal difference. Tonal balance is now perfect with high's still as detailed but beautiful sounding with much more authority and control overall. Mids are even better.
Even with the existing equipment - I can already tell these are the type of permanent fixture speakers that over time you upgrade just by feeding better and better electronics.
Not just classical, even electronic music sounds great. Listening to Shpongles new "Museum of Consciousness" album and Infected Mushroom's "Friends on Mushrooms". Wonderful!
How do they sound? Since my equipment is in transition right now, the electronics I'm using are clearly not up to speakers of this class. But there were some tentative generalities I've been able to gather even at this stage.
First of all I'm using a Cary Cinema 5 250 WPC solid state amplifier. Lots of people sneer at these for 2 channel use because of their home theater origins but I actually think they're quite good. But things go a bit downhill from there. I have a Cary SLP 98L that's brand new that I haven't tried yet since it hasn't even begun breaking.
Instead I'm using a Cary Cinema 11 preamp/processor which is fantastic for home theater but nowhere close to high end for 2 channel audio. The only DAC I have in my system is the OPPO HA-1 headphone amp. Not bad for the price but these baby's deserve better. I'm looking to add the Chord Hugo in the near future. On top of that I'm using XLR cable between the amp and preamp that also hasn't burned in yet.
So though I'm withholding judgement on the ultimate character and even sound of the speakers until the final equipment is present, burned in etc - there are some things that jump out even after listening for a few hours.
First, everything they say about an amazingly articulate bass is true. After living with B&W's and many other speakers that I thought could get the bass right, these are wonderful. Articulate bass used to mean "lean" to me - but not so with these.
Dynamic-ness - These are extremely dynamic speakers which I'll admit I wasn't expecting. Not as in aggressiveness, but in terms of extracting the ebb and flow of emotion and uniqueness of each performance. Removing prettiness and flatness in favor of a very lifelike dimensional sound.
Listening to Jacobs recording of "Marriage of Figaro" which I'm maybe overly familiar with felt more like the full chaotic experience of being at the opera. One vocalist was now clearly over to the side singing with less volume reflecting her distance and and acting activities than the key character who breaks in with a very rich and emotional front and center Aria. I never heard that before.
Coherence - since these speakers are actually two joined together "modules" of a monitor speaker and bass cabinet, you might expect to hear the two distinctly. Instead it's a very coherent sound top to bottom which is one of the keys to realism instead of hifi sounding for me.
Detail - no question these speakers love detail and knows what to do with them.
Soundstaging - another strength of these speakers surpassing anything I've had heard in the past. The stage isn't in your face - you're clearly a few rows back in the audience.
Any negative surprises? Not sure. Given the comments I've heard on the Parcifals, I was expecting a warm lush sound. Not so far. In fact in my admittedly subpar system they tend to the more revealing than lush. Thankfully it's not fatiguing or strident, but lets just say more treble energy than I was expecting. As someone always willing to trade detail for lushness, this is to be expected as I move up the food chain.
And I have a feeling a fully burned in Cary SLP98 tube preamp will be the perfect antidote (not to mention the Chord Hugo DAC). So the tonal character is something I shouldn't even mention at this point - but in the spirit of holding nothing back..
Overall the sound is alive, coherent and engaging. Needless to say I haven't heard anything in the under $10K new price range (which is all i auditioned) that could come anywhere close. I'll report back once I get my more permanent electronics in place.
Just received the Parcifal Ovations yesterday. First of all I was VERY impressed with the heavy duty shipping cases they came with. So well padded and heavy duty they almost seemed UPS proof. And the fact that Verity kept the shipping weight to just shy of the 150 limit for UPS parcels kept the shipping prices down to $165 each for each 149lb speaker instead of over $900 for both if they exceeded 150 lbs. Obviously this makes them very Audiogon friendly speakers and is a huge bonus should you ever decide to sell them anywhere but locally.
The speakers themselves are also cleverly designed in 2 pieces so they're very easy to setup, maneuver etc. They're also unobtrusive, wife friendly yet still have a distinctly high end look if slightly understated. The high finish piano black looks more elegant than I thought. I'm a natural wood kind of guy usually, but this is what was available on Audiogon so I figured I could live with them. Truth is, again they're quite elegant looking and I'm more than pleased with the way they look.
Icing on the cake was the seller Skinzy took meticulous care of them and it's very difficult to tell they're not brand new. Thanks Scott!
Overall out of the travel cases I have nothing but admiration for the the forethought, engineering, ingenuity and workmanship that went into these speakers.
Hope you enjoy them. Also non fatiguing but very detailed are Magico. I think in a few years there will be a good Rockport, Verity and Magico shootout. They all have extreme lines. They all have mid-fi speakers. They are my favorites.
Bjesian, I haven't received them yet but are expecting them tomorrow (Tuesday) sometime. I'll definitely report back once I've had some time with them.
Larrybou , congratulations on your new speakers. I hope you enjoy them. Keep us posted on how you like them. David Lewis Audio in Philadelphia sell the Verity speakers. Where you ever able to go there for an audition? Your are not too far from philly area living in the Baltimore/DC area.
Larrybou, I definitely recommend spikes. What I was trying to say is that I like to keep them on towels because I can easily slide them to many different listening positions. I have wood floors so this method works for me. After that I fine tune with spikes.
bjesian - thanks for sharing you're speaker progression. It's very encouraging obviously and makes me all the more antsy to have these baby's show up at the door. Not sure on delivery yet but it should be sometime next week.
Despite all the money and nice gear I've gone through in the past I don't consider myself an audiophile. I don't care about hearing peoples toupees move while they're playing the trumpet or even all that much about perfect sound staging etc.
As a former musician I just look for instruments to sound the way they sound. In this ridiculous industry that alone is seriously compromised until you've shelled out big dollars - and I know it doesn't have to be that way.
All this is to say that if the Parcifal O's sound half as good as they're supposed to - it should be the end of the line for me. Even the Cary speakers had me contented. Now if we can just do something about the power surges around here...
BTW why do you recommend towels instead of spikes?
Nice Larrybou, when do you expect to have them? I worked my way through the Verity line starting with the Tamino, awesome speaker. After that I made several mistakes/progressions with Totem, Devore, Zu, etc.
Next I listened to a pair of Fidelio Encores at a local shop that I love, Goodwin's High End, in Waltham, MA, and knew I had to get back to the Verity line again. I bought them. A couple years later they had a pair of used Parsifal for sale and I took the hour ride to get them. The rest is history. I think I'm done unless I hit the lottery or downsize. I don't play the lottery.
I have worked for a few dealers over the years and have had Wilson, Devore, Magico, and Rockport speakers in my house. For my space and budget the Verity's are the best. I'd be a Rockport owner if I had a big room and big budget. There are better speakers and it all comes to personal taste... except Wilson Audio... Can't stand them. Wilson survives on marketing hype.
I recommend setting them on heavy towels without spikes, and move them around. Have fun. Please share your feedback.
How did I choose the verity's? Basically by violating every audio buying rule I've ever lived by.
Basically only buy after extensive auditioning including in my own house with my own electronics and recordings.
Instead I haven't even seen them in person yet and only heard them on YouTube (although excellently recorded and sounded fantastic). Crazy crazy crazy.
Like most people here I couldn't begin to count the times I've auditioned raved about equipment and thought it was junk.
There's a precedent though - I went to a CEDIA show once and bought a complete home theater system including speakers from Cary Audio. Never heard a note but had faith in the brand (and a nice discount). The sound was sublime from day one and one of the best buys I've ever made.
Since I live in the Metro Baltimore and D.C. Area we have more high end stores than most. I auditioned Sonus Faber, Dynaudio, B&W, Vienna Acoustics, Totem, Golden Ear, Audionote, Proac etc.
I didn't find any of them terribly thrilling for under $10k. The few that sounded well rounded in attributes were too aggressive/fatiguing sounding (as seems to be the fashion these days). This was one reason I started this thread.
You all led me to the Veritys which seemed to have all the attributes I was looking for in spades. There were lots of well detailed reviews that were almost unanimous in describing the kind of sound I was looking for and in agreement with what you all were saying here.
Then desperate for anything I listened to them on YouTube with headphones in a very well recorded video. The sound was stunning and very much in line with the consensus.
Finally I called Verity to find out what I could from the sales guy and ended up speaking with one of the founders who even had the same last name. Yes the stars were lining up on this one.
Of course the Veritys are much more expensive than the speakers I was auditioning so I'd expect them to be better. Fortunately there was a used pair on Agone that was at the top end of my budget.
So I pulled the trigger - but somehow I'm fully expecting this to be a satisfying blind buy like the Cary gear. We'll soon see.
I'm really excited about receiving these. Barring another electronic meltdown I'm expecting these to be keepers. Now the expense will come by upgrading all my electronics. I think my Cary solid state amp will be up to the task - but combined with the Cary SP-98L tube pre might be a bit warm.
@ Wolf_Garcia, Hi, your 4-20-14 post gave me a good laugh here on my Birth-day today, Thankyou, you are a riot, meaning- entertaining to say the least!
It's a present concern and has been for some time. Right now I'm listening to a classical Wagner LP with my handy Radio Shack SPL meter next to me.
Classical is not as bad as rock, but even some classical selections can have a dynamic range of 30 to 40 db, peaking at 95+ db on transients. Rock music, which is more often dynamically compressed, is easier to regulate ... but I do miss listening at 90+ db. So I've settled for low/mid 80 db levels and try to mix it up with classical.
Bifwynne: I like my music loud, too. But that sensation you are experiencing is, most likely, slowly contributing to accumulated hearing loss. IOW, you may be listening too loudly. As some of the members of my local audiophile society like to say when someone cranks up the dBs, "are you in this hobby just for today, or the long term?"
Distortion or ear fatigue (or damage) is NOT the result of room reflections or room interaction, unless you are listening to high level sound with your face against the ceiling or, more likely, the wall or floor, or you live in an old phone booth or an oil drum. Wavetouch Audio should re-write their website copy since the entire first (all I could stand to read) section of the "Yoon Tune" trade marked (!) technology explanation is utterly ridiculous, and an insult to anybody who actually knows anything about sound...really...these speakers may sound fine, but using nonesense to justify a design is really strange and ultimately can't be helping these guys sell things.
A while back, a member posted a comment that the human ear has some type of autoprotect response to high SPLs. This has happened to me when I play highly compressed rock music at very loud levels for an extended period of time. It takes a couple of hours for my ears to "thaw out" for lack of a better phrase. Obviously my comment goes more to the issue of playing music at excessively high SPLs than to system distortion.
Sorry to insert myself into this discussion. Goeff may be onto something by his last comment. Does that means I'm NOT telling him that he's the only one who hears this distortion? I'm just not sure of what type of distortion I'm NOT telling him that he's hearing. :) LOL
For what it's worth I'm not really referring to listener fatigue. I'm referring to the gross distortion one hears *immediately* in any system, regardless of price, when the volume is pushed up past an average normal level. I.e., the kind of distortion that would drive most people out of the room. I'm not referring to the distortion inherent in components or speakers, distortion due to electronics or speakers not having been broken in, or even comb filter effects. Come on, don't tell me I'm the only one who hears this distortion.
Ascribing listener fatigue to high level sound is like saying poking yourself in the eye causes eye pain. Really...bright speakers, bright recordings, harsh recordings...blah blah...clearly these things are gonna get you buggin'. I bought my Silverlines after listening to a friend's pair and reading reviews that pointed out the lack of shrill sizzle from the metal tweets, and that made sense. What also makes sense for me is using a tube amp placed after clean preampage as tubes clip more pleasantly (I don't crank the things to serious distortion anyway, except tube guitar amps which are the tone standard) and simply sound more friendly for my earballs. Room reflection isn't generally the culprit unless you have a rig in your prison cell, which is unlikely...note that padded cells for the mentally unstable are MUCH better sounding than conventional cement, although it can be harder to adjust the levels wearing a straight jacket...
In the last 20 or 25 years, it has certainly not been a huge priority of high end to get extremely loud playback at low distortion levels. Producers have been fixated on imaging, pretty female vocals, lots of deep bass, and maybe above all "high definition" or lots of detail, because reviewers and audiophiles fixated on that stuff, especially the detail.
I can't completely agree with this. I have heard Wilson Alexandria X-2s and XLFs that definitely reproduce the full dynamic range of a big band or 100-piece orchestra at close range without distracting distortion, and I'm confident that top line products from Magic, Focal Utopia, and others can achieve the same sensation.
That's what the big bucks should buy you--range, both frequency response and dynamic range. Many speakers can recreate solo acoustic guitar or voice realistically for $2K or less. The air gets rarified when you look for a speaker that presents the same sense of reality for an orchestral/choral reproduction of a Mahler symphony, Holst's "The Planets" or Mendelssohn's "Elijah," or of the Ellington or Basie big bands in full swing from the front row. I've gotten that sensation from the Wilson Alexandrias and I'm sure others here have experienced (or own) this sensation from other fine full-range loudspeakers properly amplified.
Geoff, not everything is black and white. Systems do not go from "nice sounding" to "intolerable distortion" over a 1 db range. It is a gradual thing. But the ear does tend to suddenly notice things when they get to a certain threshold, just as the eye does....we don't sense things linearly.
In the last 20 or 25 years, it has certainly not been a huge priority of high end to get extremely loud playback at low distortion levels. Producers have been fixated on imaging, pretty female vocals, lots of deep bass, and maybe above all "high definition" or lots of detail, because reviewers and audiophiles fixated on that stuff, especially the detail.
Remember, most of the folks spending the big bucks are heavily influenced by the reviews and manufacturer hype. I think most of the expensive speakers have plenty of problems, the least of which is rising distortion with louder playback levels. Pricing has gone crazy, but sonic quality has not kept pace on a linear level with pricing.
"Because that elevated distortion, let's say .01% for argument's sake, might not outweigh the higher SPL experience for any particular listener."
If it were only .01% I wouldn't have brought it up. I'd estimate the "perceived distortion" to be around 5%, maybe more. I suspect we are so used to the distortion we don't flinch, maybe just a little.
Kiddman, if your theory is correct, that gross distortion in an audio system is produced at louder than normal volume by rising distortion in the speakers and distortion in the components, let me ask an innocent question: Why would anyone in his right mind spend $10K, $25K, or $100K on a system that is unlistenable at higher volumes?
Geoffkait, everything is involved in increasing distortion when the volume goes up.
First is your impression, even the base level of distortion becomes more intolerable when the volume goes up.
Second, the transducers, the speakers or headphones, absolutely rise in distortion with higher volume levels. Most speakers compress badly, and when compression is involved there is a lot of distortion going on.
Third, the distortion of the electronics goes up in almost all cases. There are exceptions for electronics, where the distortion goes down as power output goes up, but that's not normally the case.
@ Kidmann, wow!, I see you do not know anything about Tara labs cables!, I laughed so hard at what you said about Tara labs cables!, Technical?, really!, your kidding, right?, I bet you do not know that Tara labs just introduced 6 new cables, A new flagship cable for the first time in 17 years!, Then you said something about gauge of the cables, The new Grandmaster Evolution interconnect sports the lowest capacitance in the industry, A mere 2 picofarads!,with dual mono-block grounding station, then the Grandmaster Evolution speaker cables are the most flexible money can buy, the linearity of a 32 gauge conductor, 288 conductors per-channel, the gauge size, Really?, The gauge size is 000, thats an area of 85,000 squaremillimeters per channel!, you really should research and go and listen, before you make such false statements about Tara labs cables, your description of ringing and not smooth is as far from the actual truth as can be!
It features steadily falling FR from a bass hump at +/- 50 hz (in my room), except for a gentle broad elevation in the upper mid and that adds "jump" to it's otherwise mellow tonal balance. Not strictly neutral, but bright recordings are generally mellowed a bit by the falling treble, and flat recordings usually sound pretty good, too - because the upper mid plateau gets energy without etch. Bass ha real impact because the hump there falls right on the kick drum. Overall, it's a very clever mix of deviations that works much better in the room than it sounds on paper.
I currently own several high-end brand speakers already cited here (including Silverline Sonatina and Preludes, SF Cremonas and Minuettos, Maggie MMG, and Ohm 100s, among others). Each has it's own merits ans each gets use in my home or office. However, IMO, the Verity P/E comes closest to meet the stated needs of the OP.
That doesn't make it the "best" by any stretch - just IMO the best fit for the OP. As always - MMV.
BTW, I'd probably place the MMGs in second place, FWIW.
Anyone notice that the distortion is pretty unmanageable once the volume is pushed up past around average level. This is true for almost any system you might wish to suggest, even ones you might wish to offer as exceptions. Now, here's the bad news. The distortion you hear is completely unrelated to anything like jitter, distortion of the speakers, distortion in wires or cables, distortion on the recording, etc. That's what makes this so difficult to point out, I mean, what else could it possibly be, right?
"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance." - old audiophile adage
Listener fatigue also comes from digital artifacts such as jitter and bad phase relationship, and from tweeters that suffer from excessive overshoot, ringing, and "oilcan" resonances. It can also come from a persistent strong "one note" resonance, most commonly in the 100-200 Hz region.
There are many contributors to listener fatigue, but a little room ambience and reverb is pretty far down the list. When you consider that indoor live music is largely defined by the reverberant field, and that some of the more reverberant concernt venues are highly prized (e.g., Boston's Symphony Hall, Cincinnati's Music Hall, etc.) then the idea that room interaction is the primary cause of listener fatigue borders on the preposterous.
Add to this that dipoles such as the Nolas, MarinLogans, and Magnepans all rely on the backwave, as well as highly regarded bipolar and omni speakers such as the Mirages, Ohms, Shahinians, and MBLs, and it's obvious that--while bad room interactions can contribute to listner fatigue--there are plenty of examples of speakers that rely on beneficial room interaction with very pleasurable results.
Note also that in the latest iteration of Sonus Faber speakers, (which as a group are regarded as *very* fatigue-free), their top line $200K "The Sonus Faber" and $120K Aida models feature front and rear-firing drivers for a bipolar radiating pattern. This obviously brings the room reverberation into the playback presentation.
Taking room interactions out of the radiating pattern doesn't remove listener fatigue; it makes it easier to hear more precisely what's on the recording like in studio monitoring, which may or may not be fatiguing due to other factors.
Listerner fatigue primarily comes from clipping amps, which 3 out of 4 "piles are running whether they believe it or not, and you brain saying "enough already" I 'm wasted from converting all these 1's into sine waves for hour after hour.
Larrybou , I personally feel that the Mozart Grand is the sweet spot within the Vienna Acoustics Grand series line up. It just has a little smoother of a top end compared to the Beethoven Grand and Baby Grand to me.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
