Larry, I've been reading of your dilemma, If you are still seeking speaker cable suggestions, I recommended Tempo Electric solid core silver in Teflon tubing. I replaced Auditorium A-23 cables with them, and I'm very satisfied with them.
I was able to buy a set for each amplifier at their oh-so-reasonable prices. They are working well with both amps, an SET 300B, and First Watt M2, driving my custom Tannoy HPD 315's.
On another subject, a friend in Oregon replaced his Veritys with large Ushers, which are a marked imporovement in his room. Also, try and listen to some Tannoys, I can't give them enough praise.
Finally, many of the posts on this thread were very amusing and entertaining, nicely done, fellows!
Regards,
Dan |
I know this is off topic, but there's a Nuforce Nuprime hitting the market which is similar in functionality - and early reports say it sounds great. Instead of $7500 like the Wadia it's coming in at $2300. I doubt the sound is reference quality like the W Intuition, but given it's from Nuforce it could be expected to way out perform it's price. |
KeithTexas - That's a good analysis of my situation. Also the fact that we're living temporarily in a town home instead of the large SF homes we've always had has a lot to do with it.
But more than anything the prospect of having to start from scratch building an optimal system with synergistic amps, preamps, speakers, interconnects, source, DACs, etc. was just way more than I have time to take on. Especially now that dealers are far and few between, and ones that let you audition gear in your home like in the old days have almost ceased to exist.
As Bjesion said I decided to figure out the electronics and DRASTICALLY simplify the system and process. Either getting active speakers and a DAC or all in one electronics.
I went with the Wadia Intuition which combines DAC, preamp and 190W amp. Sounds amazing, weights 17 lbs and I can carry it under my arm to show rooms to audition speakers. My entire big rig reference electronics gear fitting under my arm? Yes - this is EXACTLY what I was after.
Now the only system matching is between the Wadia and speakers. A much simpler, more rewarding and enjoyable process for sure. |
non fatiguing smooth sounding speakers might be boring after several minutes of listening. |
I think Larrybou hit on something that bears mentioning.
Sometimes 'easy to live with' speakers are the most 'non-fatiguing' if you will, because it is 'fatiguing' to try to get really good speakers to work in your room. With your electronics. And cables. And WAF. And neighbors.
It's enough to take the fun out of things.
This is a great hobby, but it's mentally demanding because we are trying to combine emotional response with an analytical mental process, with 'value' (which is often at war with the said emotional goal), etc.
I have heard that the definition of 'contentment' is not chasing or wanting what you don't have; but is instead 'wanting' what you already have.
A desktop system or a small speaker with an integrated tube amp may be just the ticket, because all of the competing mental and financial demands don't interfere with the listening.
Having said that of course, I'm now off to search for big speakers and big amps. With big power cords.
YEAH BABY !! LOL |
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Hang on Larry. Get your power issues figured out. You sound like the guy in the movie "Powder", I think it was called.
Hope it all work out in the best! |
My re-decision to sell was based on economics. The insurance company didn't pay as much on the Parsifals as they lead me to believe, and on top of that I realize I'll have to change my amp, speaker cables and possibly interconnects. I'll also be partially or completely out of pocket on them as well.
I was getting some high level frequency that was a bit fatiguing and that was traced surprisingly to my Cary Cinema 5 amp. (Not surprisingly actually considering it had been dropped, badly damaged and fixed and then subject to a power surge).
Someone came by the house with some $750 25 watt amp made in Hong Kong and my jaw hit the ground after how much better the Parsifals sounded. No more high freq fatigue and the Parsifals sounded stunning. The guy also brought some speakers he wanted to sell but after hearing the Parsifals said he's never had the experience of being in the room with the performers they way he did with the Parcifals. Didn't even bother connecting his speakers.
(And again this was from his 25 watt amp, not my Cary 200watt solid state).
But after getting shorted on my insurance payout for the Parsifals and now having to also buy an amp, DAC, speaker and interconnect cables (that were fried too) it makes sense to aim for a more humble system where I can put out considerably less cash on all fronts.
I've made the mistake in the past of wasting good speakers on average electronics. But it's with very mixed feelings after hearing how amazing the Parsifals sound with just incremental improvements in equipment. I can only imagine what they must sound like with really serious electronics behind them. |
Brownsfan is 99.999 % correct.
My only caveat might be that in the way humans are socialized, most of us are actually a product of our grandmothers time.A rare truly talented human can be in the present time.
There are perhaps 10 artists in Western History that transcended time. The Germans think Bach is the greatest artist, in any field, that ever lived.
Though when they get things wrong they get them really wrong, when they get things right, they get them really, really right. |
Photon, I concede that had JSB been born in 1953, he would not have written high Baroque music. Your Part/Reich hybrid is a plausible hypothesis.
99.999% of all people are a product of their time, but people like JSB are a product of something else. They are influenced to an extent by what occurs around them, but they are not defined by context.
As for Bach's genius and faith, those are givens. As for his "pugnacity," considering his genius, his workload, the demands of his family, and the complete cluelessness of his co-workers in Leipzig, its little wonder that he gained a repetition for being somewhat abrupt.
I've seen JSB's IQ estimated at 165, which I think maybe a bit low. History has crowned him the greatest composer of all time, but his contemporaries knew him as a first rate organist and a third rate composer. No wonder he was a wee but short with his "colleagues." |
I agree with you to a point Brownsfan, but all artists are a product of their times. Mapman's posited situation of Bach coming back or existing in our times is an entertaining amusement, but in reality old man Back could only exist in the the time and place he grew up. Should another artist with Bach's combination of religiosity, compositional genius, and personal pugnacity grow up today, they'd have to be influenced by the totality of their philosophical and artistic world and I have little doubt the 21st century Bach would write music that sounded very different. Maybe more like Aarvo Pärt meets Steve Reich than Devo though. |
Mapman, Don't tread on my Bach!
Sorry, but I'm going to respectfully disagree with your thought that Bach had been of a more recent time he would have emulated the Devo style. For that, see Mozart or Handel. In actual fact, JSB continued writing music in the high Baroque style long (25 years) after virtually everyone else had moved on. His own sons considered him an anachronism. He got nothing but grief from the knuckle headed Liepzig clergy and his own family, but he kept right on producing the most divine, sublime music ever conceived at a superhuman rate.
JS Bach knew who he was. He knew what he was doing and why he was doing it, and it had nothing to do with considerations common to normal human beings.
Sorry, but the man who wrote, Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaach, nun its mien Jesu hin, had no Devo.
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I'd say they're a good deal at that price point and easy to find because he keeps spelling them wrong. I think you should give them a few months but you seem really stressed. What are you going after next? |
06-16-14: Larrybou
The design and engineering that went into these Veritys is truly impressive. No longer for sale. Back up for sale as of 6/18. LOL!! Keep us posted on what you wind up with. |
Since I have no idea who Devo is , beats me.
But Bach is beyond any time . |
Schubert,
I saw Devo in concert last night.
The thought crossed my mind that if Bach lived in recent times, perhaps this is what he would do?
Ya never know. Times make the man in many ways. |
" stop listening to rock and concentrate on Bach.
Better for you mind, body and soul"
There you go. |
Larrybou, easy solution, stop listening to rock and concentrate on Bach.
Better for you mind, body and soul. |
That is one of the best features of the Parsifals, they allow you to have the woofers firing forward or backward. This really helps to integrate them into many more rooms than speakers that don't have that flexibility. I'm glad that you are enjoying them. |
After playing them for awhile in the forward woofer config they're really sounding good. Not rattling the walls with 3d deep liquid bass but excellent bass anyway and probably even more coherent and correct sounding (at least in my listening space).
Plus the speakers look more impressive like this, can be closer to the walls, and even sound better with my darker cables.
Knowing they were recommended to face backwards it didn't seem possible that the same woofers with the same output could also sound correct with the very different job of playing into the room.
Actually with the woofers facing in either direction the bass sounds better than any speaker I've ever owned including Cary Silver Oak 3s, B&W 804s and others. The design and engineering that went into these Veritys is truly impressive. No longer for sale. |
While you're experimenting, maybe you should try just using the monitor's.
Worth a shot, these are wonderful speakers and one's that I would imagine you will regret selling.
Good luck
Jeff |
Ok I tried them with bass firing forward. As Verity said most of that amazing bass depth and spaciousness has gone. But it IS more neighbor friendly and doesn't sound bad. I'll see if it grows on me. |
The problem is the room they're in. To get them far enough from the front wall one of the speakers would have the bass module firing right into the side of a love seat if the woofers were facing forward. This is one reason I thought the rear firing bass module would be a good solution. .
The other solution would be monitors and a sub obviously. Or I could try moving the speakers much closer together and turning the bass forward - but both of those things would limit depth and soundstage as per Verity.
One last option is moving them to the home theater room since they were designed by the builder with extra sound shielding. All the HT speakers are in wall etc. but it's a blacked out room with theater seating no windows etc. not where I want to kick back and listen to music.
I've always lived in large single family homes so these are all constraints I'm tying to adjust to.
Interesting about the silver cables. Which ones are you using? |
Try turning the speaker bass cabinet so that it faces forward, this should lessen the bass that disturbs the neighbors.
Also, I know what you are talking about, I had to remake my cables after buying the Parsifals. I remember them sounding so great at the dealers, and when I got them home I was surprised that they sounded so dark. I too had been using darker sounding cables. I called the dealer, and he was using silver cables, which I had never cared for the sound of silver before. I bought some silver cables, and surprisingly, the Parsifals sounded like magic again. Thus learning my lesson that all cables can sound right with the right gear. |
Funny side note. In a neighbors be damned session I was playing "the Specials" enjoying that Ska percussion the Parcifals did a great job with. My wife came downstairs and we started dancing probably for 20 minutes or so. A while later my kids came home and THEY were dancing through several songs.
This was really shocking for my 19 year old tragically hip twin sons but the Veritys (and the specials) can do that to you. |
LOL. Ok here's the scoop. After having them a couple weeks the bass really opened up (normally a good thing). Except we live in a townhouse and hitting the magical volume level makes me feel uneasy about bothering our very nice neighbors.
Also there's more cable and electronics purchases ahead to optimize them. My previous speakers were a bit bright so all my cabling was on the dark side. Purist Museaus speaker and IC's. Plus the addition of the Cary tube preamp also darkened things a bit - but overall I LOVE it's sound. Should've gotten into tubes years ago. Even my DAC is a bit darker sounding and needs replacing.
If I just play classical or acoustic I can get by with a decent volume. But put on rock or electronic and the room starts to shake. Also normally a good thing but not the best in our situation.
I was torn between keeping the Parcifals and the added expense of a system makeover while not being able to play them at reference levels and going with smaller, less dynamic speakers more apropos for the smaller room and shared walls.
OTOH after getting heat from my wife about spending the money, she's fighting me now over selling them. She loves the look (which has never been the case with any of my speakers ever) and sound of them. Even my teen sons love how cool and modern they look - and as musicians love the sound as well (especially the bass).
Plus for the stuff I listen to the most it does sound quite addictive at moderate sound levels even with the overly dark supporting equipment. But overall it would probably be easier just to get better matched speakers for the room size and not have to change out all the gear. It's not hard getting smaller brighter speakers. Thinking maybe some Dynaudio monitors.
But I do go back and forth. Even with our elaborate home theater room I seem to be spending all my time listening to music with the Veritys in the house. Being sensible can be painful and conflicting sometimes. |
Wow! Is this true? After all Larry has posted about his speaker search and all the positive words about the Parsifals, it would be nice for the rest of us and those who helped him in this thread if he would give some sort of explanation. |
Them Parsifals didn't last long, huh Larrybou? I see that you have them up for sale. What next? |
Scott - thanks but I'd be worried about what happens when your Alexia's finally break in. The bliss from speakers that lofty seems like they could cause irreversible astral transmutation...lol
I finally added the Cary SLP98 tube preamp to the system and I'm feeling a bit untethered myself listening to the Vivaldi Cello Concerto! Wow absolutely gorgeous! The Parcifals are really chameleons depending on what you feed them.
Enjoy your Wilsons and it was a pleasure transacting with you. Now if we could just figure out how to leave each other feedback.. |
Spiral Groove Canalis Anima. |
Thanks for the kind words Larry. Glad your enjoying the Verity’s as much as I did! Now if I can just get my new Wilson Alexia”s broken-in! |
I have a pair of Vienna Acoustics Strauss, they are wonderfully non-fatiguing. Warm, reasonably defined, but simply too warm--dark to me-- to get me excited. I love them, but just not enough.....sadly. |
Never have..
Would rather be high on life. |
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I used Stealth Metacarbon and Indra interconnects with the Hybrid MLT speaker cable. I also had 5 Dream power cords, though I never got a chance to try the Dream speaker cable. All are very fast and articulate like Nordost, but did not sound as thin as the Nordost to me. |
JMC - I'll see if Cable Co carries the stealth. What model were these?
BJesien - I'll keep the Stadium III's in mind after we leave the townhouse next year. They're already too penetrating as it is for our current setup. It's a luxury townhouse with supposedly very solid walls but I still think I'm pushing my luck. |
I ran Stealth cables with my Parsifal's, they worked well for me. The Nordost were just a tad too thin sounding for my tastes. The Stealth had almost as much speed and resolution, but were just a tad more musical than the Nordost. As usual, YMMV. I also heard the Parsifal's work well in a system with Acoustic Zen Absolute cables. |
I'm thinking the Museaus cables in the Parcifals probably ARE too dark. I've never been a big fan of AQ but the AQ Rocket 33's I'm temporarily using seem to be a good match. The treble is bit lacking in refinement but otherwise they're quite good. Probably going further up the AQ line could help.
I'm receiving acoustic Zen, Cardas and Wyre World cables from Cable Company today. I'll try the Nordost Audience-24 and higher end AQ's next. |
Still OHM Walsh. Can tune into them for hours and still hate to turn things off. |
Larrybou,
Yes I am Very familiar with the Parsifal, I've owned them for 3 years and love them. I was just saying that I've heard them in one of the best rooms in the world with incredible gear, so I know what they are capable of. I would throw 40k at them before replacing them.
I also use a Rel Stadium III sub, when in the mood. It blends perfectly and adds the feel that only the Stadium III can add (IME better than JL series). Try to listen to one if you can because it will add another level to the enjoyment.
Glad you like them. I've had the Museaus cables and found them very dull and dark. I did like some qualities like smooth, tuneful in the midrange and bass, but I currently have Nordost Frey 2 and 1 Hiemdall 2, 2 Valhalla, with QX 4 and QB 8 purifiers. I'm not a cable snob but did some work for a rep in the past and respect what Nordost adds to the experience. |
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. |
06-02-14: Schubert (speaking of Diana Krall)
Piano OK, voice and beat never meet.
Not true on "All For You," which is tight and precise all the way. Still my favoriate album of hers, backed just by her bassist and Russell Malone on guitar. They had just come back from an extended live tour and were totally tight. |
Bjesien - have you experimented with placement? If you want to love the bass put them as close as you can to the back wall just before they get boomy.
They take some getting used to because if there's no bass in the recording you won't hear a scintilla of it in your system. Once it appears in the recording it's stunning.
These are very fine speakers and as such VERY sensitive. The differences in everything from interconnects to speaker wire to DACS is magnified 10 fold from my previous also quite good (but not in the same league) Cary Silver Oak III's.
I'd call Verity and tell them what you're not satisfied with, what your other equipment is etc. Even though I bought used they were VERY patient and helpful getting placement right etc.
Also try calling the Cable Company. They were very familiar with the Parcifals and could even tell me which cables have been preferred by Parcifal owners in the past. Ironically one of them was the very speaker wire I already owned but was fried in the lightening strike.
They'll send various cables already burned in for you to audition and you only pay a deposit of 5%. I'm also doing this now - great program!
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Yes I have the woofers firing backwards as recommended by Verity for soundstage depth, etc. They actually recommended between 1 1/2 - 3 feet. Since I live in a town home I figured I'd start at 3 feet to keep peace with the neighbors.
The sweet spot for a full, rich, well defined bass in this room actually turned out to be closer to 2 feet. 2 feet it is - see if I answer the door!
The difficulties I had with getting the bass right actually turned out to be the fault of my speaker wire that was also apparently damaged by the lightning strike. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!! I put in some far less expensive AQ Rocket 33's to make sure - and sure enough, problems solved.
My Purist Audio cables which always excelled at bass and depth were so damaged I was starting to doubt the bass cabinet was working.
This might explain why I returned some Magnepan 1.7's and Kef LS-50's wondering how anyone could possibly pay more than $100 for them. Whoops - my bad. |
I've heard the Parsifal's potential at Goodwin's in Boston. They sound much better there than in my room. I still love them and understand a speakers potential is limited by my adventure and wealth. Pretty simple stuff here. |
Do you have the woofer cabinets firing forwards or backwards? If backwards, do you have enough clearance behind them (5-6 feet)? |
Piano OK, voice and beat never meet. |
Hmm, I always thought she did a good with rhythm on piano (even though her crooning does get draggy at times).
Oh well the Parcifals didn't turn Little Richard into Keith Jarrett either.. Maybe I need a better amp. |
Larrybou, did they make Diana able to keep time? LOL |
I know I'm wearing out my welcome but here's another big update. I became increasingly dissatisfied with the sound as things burned in rather than more as I'd expect. I suspected the speaker wire itself might have been damaged in the power surge.
After replacing my revered Purist Audio wire with cheaper Audioquest 33's there was no doubt about it. The PA's were significantly damaged.
The sound now was as close to live as I've ever heard in an audio system. That feeling that the vocalist was in the room with you even surpassed high end Maggies for me. Such coherence, lack of veil, soundstage, detail.
Listening to Dianne Krall actually felt like being 5 rows back in a jazz club. Miles Davis "Man with a Horn" ditto. I know this is beyond cliche for half the high end audio reviews ever printed - but I've never heard a speaker that achieved this to this extent.
If the goal is the sound of live music - the Parsifals are for you. In fact I'm seriously questioning the need to upgrade my existing equipment after hearing them with functioning speaker wire (even if cheap and not yet burned in).
The only two nit picks I have are:
1) To get absolutely genuinely live sound, the volume has to be appropriately loud. It's not terribly loud, but louder than say reading background music. Since I live in a townhouse this isn't always practical - especially night and mornings.
2) These definitely have a sweetspot. The sweetspot if fairly big (entire sofa) but stand up or to the side and things flatten out. Oddly the volume is higher in the sweetspot so turning up the volume helps with off axis listening.
Since I'm used to the home theater Cary Audio speakers which excelled at off axis listening, this takes some getting used to. But I'm pretty sure to get the kind of precision and realism the Parcifals are capable of a sweet spot would be mandatory.
The good news is that by taking out the faulty speaker wire - I'm understanding what the raves (and high sticker price) are all about. These are true reference speakers. |
