Can we talk about this? Is it possible? Or by bringing it up, will I be relegated to that category of individual so many love to hate, the dreadful "grammar n?zi"?
Does it drive anyone else nuts that it seems that more and more adults in this country could evidently not pass a 5th grade English exam?
And is the increasing proliferation of "grocers apostrophes" THE single most annoying element of the above?!
Tabl10, you make an interesting point, which I myself have noted: even most non-native-English speakers have better grammar skills than the average American. Virtually none of the immigrants I know display the same chronic lack of knowledge of basic grammar that is so common among Americans today. They learned their English in different schools in a different culture.
Yes, there are certain grammatical rules that have some leeway or different standards, but there are many others that are simple, have never changed, and are identical in all English-speaking countries. One example would be using an apostrophe in a plural: it's nonsensical, period.
This one really will be my last post here - no 'might' about it.
Correct grammer can be compared to the use of a Knife and Fork. You can use them in different ways to achieve the same result but there is a standard. Since coming to America, I've never seen such neanderthal-like technique from the professional sector, all the way down to Kindergarten.
When I was in college at Syracuse University in the early 80s, in my particular curriculum we would receive FAILING grades on our papers if we had only ONE typo or misspelling.
Stuff like that makes me mad as hell. Pure BS. Colleges really suck!
words have definitions. the behavior of some is indicative of obsession. this is not an opinion. there are definitions, facts, opinions and knowledge. since words have definitions, all utterances are not opinions.
apology accepted. i appreciate that you "keep me on my mental toes". in the end, its just talk.
Commcat, I am not of the "if-you-make-one-mistake-then-the-paper-gets-a-failing-mark" school, but I am also not of the school which says that it's OK for those postgrads and PhDs to make common mistakes again and again when they are teaching my children how to read and write. The fact that they got that far while not knowing how to write using the basic rules of grammar does not reflect well on the system which got them there, and just because they now have the 'qualification' does not excuse it. The fact that they care enough to correct themselves is good. It would be better if they were embarrassed about the mistake. Your comment on lack of reading comprehension ability is a perfect example of the problem. The only reason that occurs is that we as a society have allowed that to happen. In my preferred incarnation, those 'qualified' people with those weaknesses in their field would not have gotten qualified in the first place.
Should we revert to a standard of perfection in usage? I too think it is impractical to expect 100% take-up. However, to dismiss 'proper grammatical usage' as an appropriate target is a great mistake. I too believe the emphasis on perfect grammar and perfect punctuation is on the wane. That does not mean that I find that situation desirable, or laudable. On the contrary, I find that being accepting of a decline in standards is symptomatic of America's issues. We are gradually losing our ability to communicate difficult ideas well to each other, and because it takes effort and humility to bring ourselves back to that table, we are saying it is not important to be at that table. Instead, we spend our free time at the mall for our entertainment and watching Jon Stewart, Jim Cramer, and SNL for our news. Or is it the other way around...?
Paul, You've been a good sport throughout this thread, despite tremendous ribbing, and in your defense I must add that there was a time when incorrect punctuation, and grammar, and spelling was/were thought to indicate a lack of education. However, my direct experience with several thousand post-graduates, MBA's, Phd's, proves otherwise. Those with advanced degrees also make the same or similar errors although admittedly less frequently and often in innocence, correcting the errors if they discover them. Interestingly, a great number of them also lack reading comprehension skills despite the fact that interpretation of the written word is a major requirement in their profession. It's something that should have been mastered in high-school or college.
Nonetheless, the emphasis on perfect punctuation and grammar usage is on the wane. Communicate an idea succinctly and clearly and you have succeeded in the use of the language. At least that appears to be the current standard. Should we revert to a standard of perfection in usage?? It would be great, but it's not a reasonable expectation. It's not hard to imagine the Queen's Court in the 19th Century feeling the same distress over Americans common-use of English and the severe damage that would cause to the Commonwealth. Somehow we survived that calamity only to face one of our own making as we watch the evolution with trepidation.
And you missed the point of my responce. What I was trying to say is if others grammar annoys you then get over it, not everyone thinks or expresses themselves like you do. No offense but as a lousy speller this thread makes me defensive.
That's funny, Mumbles, as slow drivers in the left line drive me NUTS!
They seem to come in two categories: those who have no clue they are holding everyone up, and those who are fully aware of it and don't care. That's it - perfectly pace that care in the next for miles so there's no way around for anyone.
Imagine someone walking on the sidewalk slowly and blocking the whole thing, making it physically impossible for anyone to go around. Would any ever consider being so rude?
This thread reminds me of the control freak in the passing lane who is driving the speed limit and will not get out of the way of those behind him who wish to take their chances and speed. Slower traffic to the right please! Maybe Im in a hurry to get to the hospital or save my job by not being late again. The english language is ever changing, eg. ebonics and twitter. Id like to hear from all types of people, not just those lucky enough to have a fifth grade education. For me, the important thing is understanding the intended message, not the way it is communicated. (I'd check my punctuation but Im at work and only have a minute)
T_bone, I typed it properly in MS Word originally, not backwards, and if I used caps that was entirely coincidental, as when I assessed the sample font it was in all caps. No intent to shout at anyone, just to try something different. Yelling never entered my mind, but thanks for the reminder. :)
I think you're right; I originally was using some pictographic font, but in the process of trying to cut and paste, trying different things in MS Word, I used the Greek font but forgot I had done so.
My guess is that the conversion was rendered impossible because of pasting the entire block of words and the conversion program was not able to handle that kind of target. The frustrating thing is that I even used proper grammar! ;)
Doug, In MS Word, you wrote it backwards, and it looks like you used the greek alphabet to do so. I expect the Audiogon database did not recognize the input, so turned it into ASCII numbers with hexadecimal representation. BTW, you did not need to shout. :^)
Glory, Haha, have to laugh; my mind is already past that. A joke along that line didn't even enter my mind.
What you see was my feeble attempt to inject a coded language into the mix. It reads, "I think we should communicate by code," or similar. I used a script in Word to convert it, and while in Word it looked great - a bunch of interesting pictographic characters - before I pasted it in.
However, it pasted as what you see. I thought maybe it could be lifted/copied and then converted back to English once returned to Word. Failed.
The boxes with numeration indicate the letters I used, but the grand scheme was a write off. I thought it might be interesting to be able to cut and paste a simple pictographic coded message. If it had worked I would have waited to see if anyone figured it out, but I was foiled.
Being immature is when two boys go at it with words meant to hurt and belittle one another.
As 9999 reaches deep down inside his charactor and pulls out some maturity and refrains from any further comments that would do such damage as stated. Well done 9999.
When I was a child in the 1950s I remember a comic book story of visitors from outer space. The aliens were hovering above Washington, sending strange signals to our government and military.
The code was finally translated and the officer typing it was being pressured and rushed. He handed the translation to the commander and said, "Wait, I may have made a mistake, let me read that again."
The General ignored the typist, read the message and ordered our aircraft to strike the space ship. The aliens retaliated and our planet was disintegrated.
The text on the page read, "Deceive us and we will descend upon you." The pressured code breaker hit the letter D when he meant to type the letter R.
The message was friendly, "Receive us and we will descend upon you."
This was an interesting thread and became especially so when Douglas_schroeder chimed in. Very thoughtful perspective Mr. Schroeder.
Abucktwoeighty is right. Mrtennis makes my day, too. I'm just too kind to say what...
Then Glory, well, was Glory in all his glory!
You guys are all too much and that's meant kindly. Thanks for the mental stimulation and especially for the big smile I'm now wearing. Quite an eclectic group, yet somehow it works. Sort of...
Remember,"Write drunk, edit sober." Not the other way around!
I'm done. When the question is: What is the criterion for illiteracy," I'm out, since it's a game of nothing more than intellectual regress. This is why I address you as "MrObfuscation". As a parting handful of sand as I exit the sandbox, Google "illiteracy violent crime" and see what you get.
Dougles throws sand at Mr. T in the play sand box. T picks up a shovel of sand and pours it over Mr. DS'''''''S' head and calls him a name. Oh boy it's play time in the audio sand box as Paul and 9999 jump in for a little action of their own.
999,
Paul is seeking further enlightenment from you. Can you deliver some for him? (=8^)
MrTennis, This entire thread has been off topic. Google is handy to check what I have suggested are facts. We tend to disagree a lot. My goal is not to be provocative but informative. If that is mistaken as some form of aggression, my apologies. :)
Rodman99999, what is it that I should seek help for? Please continue to enlighten me.
As for you, in the passive-aggressive hostility you display over this discussion for real? Is there a mild personality disorder under the surface, perhaps?
Mrtennis, I am not interested in preparing a report for you. I think it's obvious that I was stating some opinons as well as some facts which would be difficult to contest.
Some of my points are well documented and need no regurgitation of evidence:
Society is becoming more illiterate Information overload is prevalent Family breakdown is widespread Expressions of physical hostility and violence are increasing (i.e. serial killing; I am well aware that some forms of violence are decreasing, i.e. individual homicides, which has been linked to the aging of the Baby Boomers)
Some comments are opinions: My take on TV and movie entertainment "I consider..." us to have moved into a new Dark Age People... with a wretched World View... "I predict we'll see a correlation..."
Ah Men caring about grammar? Is it any wonder I love audiophiles!
By the way, there are great, quiet entertaining books on grammar by Lynne Truss: "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" being the first one. There is even one detailing the usage of apostrophes.
You know, for when you grow weary of Stereophile and the Absolute Sound!
Here is an appropriate quote regarding this thread for those grammatically correct audiophiles. "It's easy to see, that the crux of the biscuit is the Apostrophe".
We have no choice but to snatch up all of the apostrophes we can now before Harry Pearson gets 'em. As you can readily see by reading his reviews, he purloined the total available supply of commas out there many moons ago.
The fact is that in some impoverished third-world nations the quality of grade-school education is far superior to that offered in the USA. America has become the collective voice of indifference with regard to education. Instead we import educated people on time-limited visas to fill our job vacancies. Educated citizens are the exports of nations such as India, Cuba and Haiti and their use and interpretation of the English language will affect our adoption of common-use. As far as the correct grammar and punctuation go, correct as to whose interpretation?? China has more English speaking citizens than the US and Canada combined. Add the peculiar syntax and expression common in India's English to China's contribution to our language and what we write today may be construed in the near future as a vestige of Olde English.
We do have entertainment such as "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader", which, of course, is not nearly as entertaining as the latest blockbuster with gratuitous violence (deceptively called "Action", as if there's no action in a movie without gore). If we were to actually assess skill level, Paul might be correct.
Paul, I understand your internal drive for excellence. Most people honestly do not have that degree of concern over such things. You are a man of the printed word, as you pore over articles, books, etc. That's my world as well, so we tend to be critical of such errors. Most people aren't even close to that level of involvement with the printed word. The average man reads less than one book each year. Making sure his grammar is correct is not going to a serious concern for him. When people have an average to marginal commitment to communication excellence (or lack the means to attain it) it won't happen from outside influences critiquing them.
Society is moving toward increasing illiteracy (Yup, higher interaction with decreasing literacy - not a good combination. It yields more "combatants".), which will have catastrophic consequences. I consider us to have moved into a new Dark Age socially, and in many respects intellectually. People are primed full of information (information overload) with a wretched World View and little means of productively communicating frustrations, needs, etc. Communication breakdowns, which used to be seen in very unstable homes, are now commonplace.
Rage is replacing verbal expression (Has anyone stopped to think that when speech is considered a Hate Crime and people feel pent up anger, they'll explode? Can anyone laugh off a negative comment anymore?). Years ago, when the first highly pubicized serial killings took place (I believe it was Columbine which spurred my comment) I said we'd see this weekly or daily in the years ahead. It's happening. I predict we will see a positive correlation between prosecution of verbal hate crimes and mass murders, i.e. as people feel more constrained to express themselves, they will simply explode with hatred, at times lethally. We are literally ratcheting up the tension, anger and violence in our society.
I could go on (I know, some of you are screaming at your computer, "Shut up, already!" Please avoid verbal hate crimes. Thank you!), but I won't.
Scrape the surface of poor communication in human interaction and you get... social catastrophe.
It's amazing what apostrophes, or rather misplaced ones, may indicate.
Paul- I'm not the one that has trouble understanding, or that's bothered in any way by context error. No need what-so-ever to "clear things up" for me, Thank you. As I mentioned; It's obvious you can't contain yourself. SEEK HELP, and ADIOS! =8^)
Wow, I read my original post and I guess it does sound a little snooty!
I retract the part about passing grade-school English exams. I just want more people in general to understand the proper use of the apostrophe. It's just a good thing for all! It may not rate in the top ten most important things in life, but surely it's in the top 1,000!
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