Can we talk about this? Is it possible? Or by bringing it up, will I be relegated to that category of individual so many love to hate, the dreadful "grammar n?zi"?
Does it drive anyone else nuts that it seems that more and more adults in this country could evidently not pass a 5th grade English exam?
And is the increasing proliferation of "grocers apostrophes" THE single most annoying element of the above?!
Paulfolbrecht, OK. So you are obviously better educated then the rest of us', and you're pointing out the apostrophe abuse only show's that your self-important. Your like those hedge fund's who tryed to bring down Crysler - alway's concerned about the rules and not about whats really important in life. Its hardworking American's which determine how the language is used, not linguistic snob's like you!
Boy that hurt... :^)
And Paul, shouldn't that be "grocers' apostrophes"? :^) or worse "greengrocers apostrophe's"?
These thread replies are more like text measaging than anything else and are answered by more than english speaking peoples. I do not think you would answer questons in another language other than Engish very well. Even english in the UK is differant, most words have many differant meanings and depends on content for the meaning of the word. I am Dyslexic and have issues spelling any how. I hope my spelling and grammer is ok. :-)
I didn't bother to read the full OP or thread before I posted...are you asking about the possibility of owning too many copies of Frank Zappa's recording entitled, "Apostrophe"?
Didn't common-use cause the Queen's English to devolve into American English? And what is the correct usage of an apostrophe? I once was a stickler for correct grammar and found over the years that it was irrelevant even in arena's where one might not expect. English is such an imprecise language that the mere fact we can conceive ideas and generally communicate them is remarkable in itself. The fact is that common usage prevails, eventually. I am aware of the numerous errors in my response but as noted by others "So What??"
No, it's not irrelevant. There are just a couple gray areas but plenty where the rules are completely clear - such as with plurals. Writing "arena's" when you mean "arenas" makes your writing quite awkward to read for somebody who understands the rules of grammar.
Mr. Tennis, whether or not grammatical rules exist is not a matter of opinion. Whether or not they are important is, but even you must have your limits? (Not that there's anything 'wrong' with your grammar, other than the lack of any capitals, which I personally don't find distracting.)
I grew up reading the Chronicle out of San Francisco which was notorious for bad spelling and grammar, the result of which is, whatever is trying to be said gets through and the manner in which it is said is either overlooked or ignored. Apostrophes' as well.
And by the way, T_bone, your post was hilarious. :)
What I'm lamenting here - and of course I was aware that few care - is that the standards of grammar are no doubt *slipping* in this country, and that's just really a shame. I don't mean this to sound arrogant, but, yes, you WILL sound stupid to certain people if you cannot write at even a high school level.
And it's not a matter of laziness, obviously - I'm all for shorthand where it's convenient, and I feel for you non-touch-typists. But, no, all those extra apostrophes are actually EXTRA effort!
This might be my last post in the thread. Now you guy can burn me in effigy; have a blast! :)
I pretty much refuse to buy anything from an idiot who writes "the light's and meter's work". How can you NOT know the difference between possessives and plurals? Hey, even I can cut someone a little slack for it's and its, but NOT for simple plurals like lights and meters....givbe me a break!
Oh, and one more thing, how about people who don't know the difference between lose and loose. If peple don't start learnin' sumptin', I'm gonna' 'loose' my mind.
Nearly everyone who got on their soapbox messed something up in their post. People in glass houses... Humility for us all please. Let's value education over consumerism and then we can have this discussion but on another forum.
Paulfolbrecht, I am actually slightly pleased that we have yet to have someone posting who really means what I wrote. I too find it disappointing that standards of grammar usage are declining. What's worse for me, however, is that correct grammar is increasingly seen as irrelevant. Incorrect grammar on the part of people who are not native speakers is acceptable (at least I hope so - I can butcher French subjunctive with the best of them). Absolutely faulty grammar on the part of native speakers, who then dismiss the importance of being able to manipulate their own language correctly, is a black spot on American society (I think at this point it is beyond an issue of education, it is a societal problem that people simply do not care).
Mrtennis, Stating that someone's opinion is unimportant because it is an opinion is itself an opinion so I am not sure why you posted. It seems however to the road you have been going down recently. A post you made the other day said (and I paraphrase) "Don't ask others' opinions." If one ignores the fact that your thread history is full of questions to the readership about what they think, and supposes that the sentiment is put forth honestly, is the main reason you participate in the forum to discuss facts? Is the reason why you call yourself a audio equipment 'reviewer' so that you can hold forth on specs?
Commcat, I will disagree with you here. I find English to be an extremely nuanced language. It is precise where it needs to be, and vague when ambiguity is called for (oops! naughty me - ending a sentence with a preposition!). I have yet to study a language (and I've studied my share) which has as much flexibility and precision as English (if used correctly).
It is very late and I have to run, but FWIW I never meant to berate or look down on anyone. The fact is, basic grammar rules are not that difficult and almost everyone good get it right with a little effort, and it would be easier if society itself wouldn't let standards slip so badly.
i ammore interested in facts and knowledge than opinions. opinions are ok for friendly discourse, idle chatter, but they are mere speculations, being probably true and probably false.
facts and knowledge are more useful when serious decions are made.
You have made three miscues in this thread, the last being the missing "can" word in your final goodnight post.
Throwing stones at others about their grammar errors and swinging three times and missing is like Babe Ruth pointing to the outfield seats to indicate a home run and striking out.
The letter of the law kills. One error and you are guilty of the whole law.
Could it be like trying to get the speck out of your fellow Agon members' eye and having a beam in your own? LOL
I suggest you delete this thread and start over. =8^)
Glory, I know you're not quite serious, but you're missing the point. You pointed out typos, not grammatical errors, and in any case I want to know about mine (if I intentionally make any) so's I wont do allot anymore!
Paul, An assured method of tempering your obsession is to deal with the illiterate on a large scale. The significance of correct grammar versus poor grammar is substantially diminished. The fact that people can convey concepts and ideas effectively is the most important part of our language. To discover the enormously large number of Americans denied the basic ability to read and write is shocking. Whatever the cause, they are in a left in a limbo without at least two-thirds of the ability to communicate. Spoken English has no real punctuation, only affectations, pauses and gestures for expression. Our efforts to duplicate those with punctuation underline the imprecise nature of our language. If you can grasp the concept conveyed then the language has performed its task.
Paul posted, "This might be my last post in the thread. Now you guy can burn me in effigy; have a blast! :)" Apparently: he can't help himself(five posts post-posting that post), like so many others in these forums. Paul- You said, "Writing "arena's" when you mean "arenas" makes your writing quite awkward to read for somebody who understands the rules of grammar." I understand the rules of grammar fairly well, and yet have no problem whatever discerning what others mean when using even the worst forms of Pigeon English. Perhaps your comprehension problem denotes a certain lack of intelligence, or some failure of mental process, on your part. Have you been doing a lot of drinking/drugs, or experiencing many so called, "senior moments" lately? If you read those troubling posts more slowly, their meanings may come to you more easily . Not to mention- If you were to type slower, you'd probably find yourself posting more clearly as well. Best wishes, and I hope you can resolve your issues. =8^)
You do understand the meaning of "might", right? :)
As for the effect of grammar on comprehension, your insinuation that it makes *no* difference is clearly quite naive. I didn't imply that it makes text impossible to understand, or even require some kind of "great effort", but it does make the brain work harder, and that's a simple fact.
Let me put it in audio terms: an analogy would be the way phase errors in reproduced music cause the brain to burn more calories untangling the audio into something it recognizes, leading to (potential) long-term fatigue.
Once again, I didn't complain about lack of punctuation.
I spoke about incorrect punctuation and grammar, which takes more effort than none at all.
Heck, if you don't understand basic grammar rules, there's no need to be greatly offended if somebody points it out. Make a small effort to rectify it and you probably will. Or, just decide you don't care and shrug it off.
You did make reference to the 5th grade english exam so I would think typos would count and missed words.
I did start a thread once with the word stopping in the headline but I wrote stoping. I would have failed the 5th grade exam that day.
Growing up being a "Hippie" in the 60's didn't help my studies as it was not "in" to apply one's self to all that brain stuff. We were using our minds for other more exciting things. I since have chosen a specific field to excel in as far as knowledge and insight goes and it is very rewarding to me.
My wife, being a book editor, has a lot of mercy on me for my lack of spelling skills. She can spot spelling errors on vans and trucks going down the road as they pass us. Billboards, books and mags. are also a sight to see when see finds errors. She did read my last post and she feels I am to crud in my writing. When members write such threads like this one I ask her to skim through all the threads and posts of such member to find "logs" but she refuses to do so. Great wife she is.
This thread by Paul is not as high minded as some I have read.
Commcat, I now see where you are coming from. In that context, I don't disagree. And in that situation, it is indeed the lack of appropriate emphasis on or access to education which is not disappointing, but shocking. My point was that there is another issue at large, which is that many of those who have had access to and 'gained' an education, ignore correct grammar afterwards because it is no longer cool to be well educated. In a large part of society, it is the mark of being an outsider rather than the opposite, and that is a crying shame. Perhaps the part you speak about and the part I was speaking about are linked and I did not draw the connection.
Wow, I read my original post and I guess it does sound a little snooty!
I retract the part about passing grade-school English exams. I just want more people in general to understand the proper use of the apostrophe. It's just a good thing for all! It may not rate in the top ten most important things in life, but surely it's in the top 1,000!
Paul- I'm not the one that has trouble understanding, or that's bothered in any way by context error. No need what-so-ever to "clear things up" for me, Thank you. As I mentioned; It's obvious you can't contain yourself. SEEK HELP, and ADIOS! =8^)
We do have entertainment such as "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader", which, of course, is not nearly as entertaining as the latest blockbuster with gratuitous violence (deceptively called "Action", as if there's no action in a movie without gore). If we were to actually assess skill level, Paul might be correct.
Paul, I understand your internal drive for excellence. Most people honestly do not have that degree of concern over such things. You are a man of the printed word, as you pore over articles, books, etc. That's my world as well, so we tend to be critical of such errors. Most people aren't even close to that level of involvement with the printed word. The average man reads less than one book each year. Making sure his grammar is correct is not going to a serious concern for him. When people have an average to marginal commitment to communication excellence (or lack the means to attain it) it won't happen from outside influences critiquing them.
Society is moving toward increasing illiteracy (Yup, higher interaction with decreasing literacy - not a good combination. It yields more "combatants".), which will have catastrophic consequences. I consider us to have moved into a new Dark Age socially, and in many respects intellectually. People are primed full of information (information overload) with a wretched World View and little means of productively communicating frustrations, needs, etc. Communication breakdowns, which used to be seen in very unstable homes, are now commonplace.
Rage is replacing verbal expression (Has anyone stopped to think that when speech is considered a Hate Crime and people feel pent up anger, they'll explode? Can anyone laugh off a negative comment anymore?). Years ago, when the first highly pubicized serial killings took place (I believe it was Columbine which spurred my comment) I said we'd see this weekly or daily in the years ahead. It's happening. I predict we will see a positive correlation between prosecution of verbal hate crimes and mass murders, i.e. as people feel more constrained to express themselves, they will simply explode with hatred, at times lethally. We are literally ratcheting up the tension, anger and violence in our society.
I could go on (I know, some of you are screaming at your computer, "Shut up, already!" Please avoid verbal hate crimes. Thank you!), but I won't.
Scrape the surface of poor communication in human interaction and you get... social catastrophe.
It's amazing what apostrophes, or rather misplaced ones, may indicate.
The fact is that in some impoverished third-world nations the quality of grade-school education is far superior to that offered in the USA. America has become the collective voice of indifference with regard to education. Instead we import educated people on time-limited visas to fill our job vacancies. Educated citizens are the exports of nations such as India, Cuba and Haiti and their use and interpretation of the English language will affect our adoption of common-use. As far as the correct grammar and punctuation go, correct as to whose interpretation?? China has more English speaking citizens than the US and Canada combined. Add the peculiar syntax and expression common in India's English to China's contribution to our language and what we write today may be construed in the near future as a vestige of Olde English.
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