Let's be cruel and hijack the Yamamoto dac thread once more for the Octave mk1.
I was very surprised by the good soundquality from the beginning, particularly the energy in the lower frequency.
But I also noticed a bit glassy highs like others did before.
I pimped the m2tech hiface evo with the m2tech clock, both powered by 9 volt 350mH lithium ionen batterys, and now it simply sounds amazing. NO glassy highs anymore but very refinded once go hand in hand with an open up of the soundstage. That is such an enhancement of SQ that I always craved for but wouldn't dare to expect. My room is floated with fine shimmering reverbs (lampizator call that plankton or someone spidernet stuff) and a better soundtage depth!
Also the lower octaves gain in form of a better gestalt. All in all it is more 3D. Soundstage expands not only in depth, also vertical and to the front. What a fine sound!
But if I change to the included power supply (not exactly walmart but that kind of) after the battery depleted and connect it to the hiface evo the charmingly SQ is gone - a loss of body take place. In effect it is so thin sounding compared to the battery power that I do not want to listen without the battery supply. I know there is a m2tech akku supply that I did'nt try yet.
The power supply effect is so enormous that I wouldn't believe it if I didn't experienced it by myself.
So first step: The evo hiface powered by battery, than add the clock also powered by battery, that's for me the route to reach soundquality nirvana. The clock itself makes a huge difference, evolve in charmings highs and open up the soundstage and show all the fine grained spiderweb stuff. The Metrum Octave definitely wins through a better clock in the upstream usb-spdif bridge.
I did'nt use a special bnc-bnc between clock and hiface evo but I couldn't resist to order an oyaide dr 510 for further improvement. I already use a coax silver wire between Metrum Octave and hiface (Rg 400).
Equipment:
Intonation Terzian (classic)
Nubert AW 1300
Bat VK 5se
Nakamichi pa 7
Metrum Ocatve mk 1
Mit Terminator 2
Thanks a lot to Elberoth and his test of usb-spdif bridges:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-usb-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
That inspired me to go that route.
The quality of the m2tech hiface evo with clock and decent power supply is outstanding. I can affirm what Elberoth wrote about it. That it sound a bit ethereal is what I like particularly. |
Yes, same system same gear except the following
1) My Sabre experience is with Oppo-95. It's a universal player with no digital input. I play mostly flac files off USB drive. Both ECD-1 and Metrum are fed by Synchro-mesh+AppleTV.
2) No A/B comparison. I didn't have them at the same time. |
hi Thanks and very appreciate your detail comments! i almost wanted to get it as all these rave had talked about all positive things and none negative.. Have you compared the 3 DAC (Octave,Sabre32,ECS-1) in the same system, same equipment? |
Hi Philipwu,
Yes, the soundstage doesn't seem to be constricted anymore. I do not remember when it started but so far I've had about 4 weeks of consecutive playing time (amp off while not listening).
Octave, in my system, definitely is organic and forward sounding. I'm not sure the latter is an accurate description, but I meant it in a positive way. I guess it's like "you are there" experience.
The midrange is on par with Electrocompaniet ECD-1 dac. Maybe even better due to its organic nature. I have to dig in my memory for these comparisons, so bare with me when I cannot say one is definitely better than the other. Other than midrange, Octave is better than ECD-1 in other areas.
I want to say it is as detail sounding as Sabre32 dac (my experience is with Oppo-95 playing flac files off usb drive, Octave is currently fed by Synchro-mesh + AppleTV), but in a different way. Oppo is airier and has more delicate highs but Octave is forward and more real sounding. Oppo has slightly wider soundstage, Octave may be taller soundstage, if that makes any sense. On very complex passages, Oppo has more resolving power, Octave is detail enough to keep me happy.
For piano, violin, female vocals, my system sounds the best with Octave. This one I can say. Hands down, no contest. Octave midrange also smokes Oppo.
Octave bass lines are more defined but ECD-1/Oppo aren't that far behind.
So all in all, I'm happy with the purchase. I'm not experienced enough to say how much of a giant killer the Metrum Octave is, but I can say it's worth every penny and then some. By the way, I also tried Grover Hoffman powercord with Octave and heard better dynamics.
Next up is to try Yamamoto YDA-1, Eastern Electric DAC+ with Dexa opamp and Oppo-105 (due to come out in december, Modwright tube-mod also intrigues me). No idea how long it'll take but next year should be fun. :)
Components downstream:
Focal Electra 1008Be
Pass Labs XA30.5
Pass Labs XP-10
Nordost Heimdall XLR and RCA |
Hi Kzhtoo,
So how do you find your Octave sound after the burn-in period? Did the soundstage improve since your initial observation? Thanks. |
Sorry to hijack, but this thread seems to be very informative regarding Metrum Octave (although the title is Yamamoto).
My Octave just arrived this morning, I set it up and play music on repeat before I came to work. For a few minutes I could muster to listen, one thing I noticed is constricted soundstage compared to my Electrocompaniet ECD-1 and even to my Anthem receiver. I understand it takes about 2-3 weeks to break-in but I'd like to hear anyone's experience if soundstage is one of the characteristics changing over time? I have a medium-sized room and it is very important for me to have a decent soundstage. I use Pass pre and amp.
Other than that, its clean and detail presentation cold out of the box is better than what I expected. In 6moon review, it says "bright" out of the box but I didn't detect any. |
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Kyrill,
"Any transport with a standard clock is hifi" if that`s true then it seems a super clock for the transport rather than the DAC would yield better sonic results.Or you change clocks in both, now it`s getting expensive. |
computer-DAC systems do not per se have lower jitter, in the contrary. It is the stand alone USB/Spdif converter who provides low jitter especially the well known brands which are highly probably better than a n y build in USB input of any DAC except 4 until now. Couple that to JPlay which I am 90 % sure you have not heard and only then you supersede a high quality transport. Any transport with a "standard clock is hifi, not really high end. The old but famous TEAC VDRS transport was a very good mechanical transport, but its default clock made it sound... ah well
I had one and bettered it with a Tent clock and ditto pws. But that combo is incomparable to PC music under the right conditions |
Kyrill,
Thanks for the information.I`ve heard numerous computer-DAC systems(presumably with lower jitter?) but prefer my PWT and Yamamoto DAC(natural and realistic). I`ll have to think about the super clock option. A case of theory vs reality in regard to actual sound improvement.
What ever MR. Yamamoto is using(I`ve no idea) it`s making beautiful music. |
Hi Charles
You have a nice transport.But jittery wise transports are actually at their end of life. Even a second hand dual core laptop with Jplay in windows 7 and a JKenny MK3 USB/SPDIF converter will out perform a dedicated mac and your PS audio transport probably by a large margin
So I would upgrade your dac.
My mistake refers to the 200 femto secnds of MSB Technology clock. It should be 97 F seconds according to the article |
Kryrill,
Would the DETA clock be more effective with the DAC or the PS Audio transport(memory unit)? Curious. |
|
Hi Charles
The price of the clock is including its special pws. The improvement will be there as no commercial product under 5000+ € will have a comparable clock. The total price of the clock and pws will be in the league of a mainstream low-mid price high end cable...
The MSB Technology DAC has a new 200 femto clock module... of ehhh 9950 US $. The price is only for the clock option.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2011/10/msb-femto-second-galaxy-clock.html
http://www.msbtech.com/products/galaxy.php |
Kyrill,
In theory what so state makes sense and is interesting. The Yamamoto is 'very' satisfying and often I `m inclined to leave well enough alone. For the cost of the DEXA clock I`d be disappointed with just a modest improvement. |
I did not open yet the Metrum, so I don't know its clock. I CAN predict if it is a clock under or equaling 45MHz (unless much more complicated order processes for custom cristals) it WILL be bettered by a super clock unless the strange über freq Metrum DAC has a very (much higher) clock than the normal range between 6 and 45 MHz.
As for the Yamamoto, I am 99.99% sure it will be considerably bettered by the DEXA Neutron clock with its own dedicated accurate stable pws. The most worst thing that can happen with a better clock is that the improvement in SQ is less than anticipated mostly happening as the sound reaching our ears will always be limited by the weakest link in the stereo chain |
looking at the pictures of the metrum octave in the 6moons review i can't see any crystal clock? perhaps it cames from an erase chips ? any idea? |
Kyrill1,
I have no idea what standard clock is placed in my Yamamoto but it sounds so good. If a clock upgrade improves the sound I`d be extremely impressed. |
I find enormous positive effects every time again when replacing the (good) standard clock in a cd player or transport of DAC with a "super clock" The best Quality/price ratio to my findings is The DEXA Neutron Star clock (200 femto seconds) accuracy but also with good phase characteristics and ditto pws. It made my DEQX "sing" and before that my TEAC transport. I have the Metrun Octave which does not ( to my surprise)degrades the DEQX but with super clock installed. I know the Octave is a follow up form the quad/dual Metrum models, which are really cheap ( 300 dollars for the dual which is obsolete by now) The better models since then heave a better pws and more DAC chips in parallel, but I truly expect the same clock. Now I suppose the Dual or the Quad Metrun to have a nice clock but not to be compared to the better (much) more expensive "super clocks" So in a way it MUST be advantageous for owners of both the Yamamoto or the Metrum to replace their default clock? Even the M2Tech HiFace bettered by John Kenny has at its best "nice" metal encapsulated crystals of probably 30-50ps. The Off-Ramp ( I suppose it is a M2Tech design as it needs M2Tech drivers) is intelligently nodded by Steven and he has replaced the clocks for the best he could find. The audiophilleo 1 and 2, the Burson DAcs publish a clock of <10 ps. Which is probably 5 times more accurate than mainstream modern Dacs. Most manufacturer's do not (dare) to publish the specs of their clocks which may run into the hundreds of ps. It is not only the accuracy of clocks which is important but it is an indication (being the most popular property of a clock) of the seriousness of the manufacturer how to handle digital processes. It becomes mainstream knowledge by now that the clock IS the major reason next to power of digital beauty or lack of it. I would not be surprised at all the Yamamoto or Metrum with a super clock to be the last DAC you need sound wise for the coming 10 or 30 years if the 44.1-192khz format does not disappear. |
Lewinskih01,
Not the first time and won't be the last. Seen it too many times already.
A pity a thread about Yamamoto Dac is becoming the thread to find out info on the Metrum. I won't be surprised if this one disappears too. I'm well aware of the reported nice pairing with Audiophilieo 2 and even better with the more costly Off-Ramp thanks to one enthusiastic Aussie user.nSomething to chew over.
Charles,
I was a little concerned about the potential performance of the RBCD as most of the good report is about the hi-res playback but i am glad it is working out well as it is. |
Jasper,
When I had the Octave I also found the standard Redbook performance top notch. It could be even better when upsampled(according to some). 16/44.1 was excellent.
Charles |
Jaspert,
Correct. It was wiped! First it was wiped from the daily listing, but I was able to find it with the search function. Then that didn't work anymore. Someone found it through Google. later I tried the same and couldn't find it. Another member who was posting in detail his experience started digging and he claims some manufacturer complained and the thread was taken out. See the computer audio forum here for the SB Touch thread where this was mentioned. Kind of enfuriating!
Glad you are enjoying the Octave. It's a the top of my list, but need to wait a while longer. Thanks for posting your experience!
I've seen posts commenting on how good the Audiophileo is paired to the Octave. Better than Stello, but worse than Off-Ramp (but quite less expensive too).
cheers! |
I got my Metrum Octave back a few days ago. Metrum was very good dealing with the problem I had in terms communication, return and update over the period afflicted with custom clearance delay etc.
Anyway, it is here and I'm really enjoying it as RBCD only. Highly resolving, quite refined and big soundstage. In time, I intend to setup a MacMini -USB SPDIF front end to try out the hi-res material but as it is, I'm really enjoying the RBCD performance even in the early stage. Vinyl is my main playback choice but I also listen to a DIYHiFI supply Satch NOS Dac with tube output stage and YDA1B Dac. My setup is Supratek Chenin 2010 spec or Cary SLP-05 preamp into a 4 way Azura horn setup with Accuphase F-25 active crossover for quad amping ( all SETs except for push pull for the 15" woofers). Very good value IMO.
Btw, what happened to the other thread specifically about the Octave? It got wiped. |
I'm using a Shindo pre-amp and amp (Aurieges and Montrachet). So this computer audiophile set-up is going into a much more expensive system and holding up remarkably well. My turntable is a Garrard 301 with SME 3012 arm and Denon 103 needle. Speakers are vintage Tannoy 10" reds in Coronetta enclosures.
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Congratulations Debrey,
I think very few people will be diaappointed with the Metrum Octave. Thete`s much talk and praise for the Eastern Electric mini plus DAC. This would be an intereting comparison(same price range). |
Well, I've had my Octave and USB to SPDIF devices for about 10 days now. In short, with the right set-up I am truly surprised -- I didn't think digital could sound this good, this vinyl-like. My ripped CDs have more life and soul than I thought possible.
I ripped the CDs using XLD/CD Paranoid to make sure I was getting bit-perfect rips. I bought a Mac Mini to use as a dedicated music server, put a solid state drive in it, 8 GB of ram, and put my music on a connected external hard drive (because the music files are too large to fit on the SSD drive). I spent a while on the computer audiophile forum to set the system up.
At first I was playing the files with the iTunes add-on program Bit Perfect. It sounded better than iTunes on its own. But as soon as I switched to the free trial of Audirvana Plus, it was obvious that this was a huge jump up. My wife who often thinks my changes are splitting hairs, immediately said it sounded much better. I haven't tried Amarra or Pure Music yet.
Since there were 30-day money back guarantees for both devices, I bought two different usb --> spdif converters: the Audiophilleo2 and the Stello U3. They have both been burnt in for more than 50 hours now, but probably less than 100.
The Audiophilleo consistently sounds much, much better than the Stello. The first thing I notice is how much more dynamic it is. I do also notice more low-level details on the Audiophilleo. I was worried that this might be the sort of thing that at first seems better but with time comes to seem unnatural. Far from it, the Audiophilleo feels more natural.
In some ways what is most impressive to me is that I have no fatigue at all. When I tried playing CDs through my Oppo my ears hurt after half an hour. I had been pretty happy with my Play Station 1. But this set-up is clearly in a different league. More life, more detail, clearer highers and lows -- just better. And I can listen happily all day long. I am having a lot of fun going through listening to my favorite CDs in much higher fidelity.
So anyway, I will report back after I've had the system for longer, but this is what I'm thinking so far. |
Very correct Charles. I recently had a similar experience while listening to a all Naim setup. |
Hi Pani,
I`ve gradually learned over the years how to choose(works for me anyway) components for true long term satisfaction,. Buy the one that evokes the stronger emotional response and causes an undeniable connection with your music. If it naturally draws you deep into the music`s performance that`s the one I want. |
I am happy I reinstated this thread :-)
Thank you Charles for that well thought out review. Yes, it is difficult to express the rightness of music reproduction sometimes. But you did it my friend. |
Yes Charles, I appreciated your observations. I guess my comment stems from the fact that we sometimes (myself being a guilt party, but I'm working on that) get caught up in the individual parts of a component rather than the overall design. I have no doubt based on his DAC, as well as other designs, that Mr. Yamamoto knows what he is doing. |
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Clio09,
No disagreement with your observation, I was reflecting on the general/stereotype asumptions that exist. Certainly MR. Yamamoto`s experience and talent with building SET amps and analogue components have much to do with the suceedful DAC design.Personally I believe power supply and the analogue output stage considerations have more to do with the sound than the chip choice. the Yamamoto DAC has 9 seperate regulated power supplies, a very large 150mv transformer and an ultra simple analogue circuit. He knows what he`s doing.
Best Regards, |
Further thoughts on two excellent DACs Thank you for the update, Charles! Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
I`d expect the NOS R/2R Octave to be very organic and natural(which it is)but how does Mr. Yamamoto get equal organic character from this oversampling DAC? Having both non-oversampling and oversampling digital sources which I enjoy, the answer in my opinion is because in the scheme of things, it's the overall design and not just the chip that determines the sound. |
Quietman,
I have no insight regarding the Eximus, but if you haven't yet, you might want to look over at computeraudiophile.com the "Metrum Octave - WOW" thread, where member Bhobba compares the U3, an Audiophileo, and an Offramp feeding the Octave. The short story is he feels the Audiophileo is far superior to the U3, and then the Offramp is superior to the former although quite more expensive too. And he's adamant about feeding the Octave hi resolution files.
Charles1dad: thank you for the great input. Seems like this is it for me. I now need to pull the trigger, which might take a while. |
Further thoughts on two excellent DACs,
I have over 200 hours on my Octave and stand by my earlier comments with 2 addedums, after re-inserting the Yamamoto DAC into my system the Octave is a very good DAC but it is`nt superior to the Yammy. WITH continued listening and patience subtle differences arise, both DACs are good but one does`nt stomp the other. I feel the Octave has "slightly better",micro detail and venue nuance/ambience but in my system the Yammy is just a "bit" more dynamic with more impact(not that the Octave lacks these qualities).
In terms of tone, timbre and overtones again they`re close but the Yammy is superb with overtone production with just a bit more air. I`d expect the NOS R/2R Octave to be very organic and natural(which it is)but how does Mr. Yamamoto get equal organic character from this oversampling DAC ? The Octave may be more resolved by a tiny margin yet both sound so transparent and veiless.Bass is exceptional with both DACs ,not overdampened nor fat and slow, just natural with control, good tone and weight.
I `ve not notice the high frequency issues at all with the Octave, both DACs are extended and are a bit sweet. Neither has edge,glare or harness.
Both of these are quite fine but with differences that may cause one to be preferred over the other based on taste and system makeup(nothing new there).
The Octave does have a clear value advantage(1K USD vs 2.5k or higher for the Yamamoto, big difference).
At it`s price point the Octave will be very difficult to beat.
In my case that`s a moot point, the Yamamoto is a purist Redbook only player but a damm fine one. In head to head comparisons each will have it`s supporters.
I retain my high opinion of the Octave and I feel the reviews and internet buzz is justified.
The Yamamoto-YDA-01 DAC is a classic, I`m keeping it. As involving as the Octave is, I find the Yammy even more so.Emotional respond to music is hard to explain, but you know it when you feel it. It`s the same reaction as when I replaced an excellent 100 watt push-pull amp with my 8 watt SET 300b amplifier(sublime). |
I ordered the metrum octave in September to be used with a stello u3 after reading all the rave reviews.
Of course I just read the six moons review of the new Eximus dp1 Dac and wonder did I make a mistake. Big price difference of course.
Any insights? |
I must confess that I canceled my order for the Metrum. I hadn't paid, nor had Cees mailed out my invoice yet. So no harm done. He was very nice about it.
A friend of mine whose ears I trust, and whose system I have spent many an hour listening to, told me he had the Metrum in his rig for about a month....thought it was definitely an overachiever, but prone in his system to displaying just a hint of hardness in the upper mid/lower treble.
This quality is my "white whale" so to speak, and the one thing that would make or break it for me, so without some type of return policy, I had to reluctantly pass on it.
I just couldn't take the plunge.
YMMV |
This thread is amazing !!! |
Soundqcar,
You`re welcome. No component will satisfy everyone, I hope the Octave works out for you as it has for me.
Best Regards, |
I have to say Metrum was quick to respond to my query. Cees said he would give it priority to get it sorted and send it back to me ASAP. |
Jaspert,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope you get it sorted.
I took the plunge and just ordered one.
Charles1dad, thanks for your thoughts, you've convinced me. |
My eagerly awaited Octave came this week and out of the box, I thought it sounded a little subdued, a bit bright. My system consists of a 4 way active horn setup with all tube amps( 3 SETs, 1PP) and I listen to Diyhifi Satch Dac with tube output stage in NOS mode for RBCD. Left it playing in my music room for a while and came back later ( 1 hour) to no music in the room. Found a dead Octave. No blown fuse in power supply or burnt parts that I can see. Back it goes to the maker and more waiting. Pretty annoyed :( |
Onemug, thanks for the kind remarks. You can research and read reviews but nothing beats an in house audition. Sometimes anticipation can lead to disappointment and I`ll admit my expectations were pretty high. It is gratifying when they are met or as in this case exceeded. This DAC is really fine. The 6 Moons review is remarkably accurate. I do think there`s much synergy with my system and others may /could have a different experience or out-come |
Excellent review. You have the system to show what this DAC can do. Glad it was a home run for you. |
Update impressions of the Octave:
This is an exceptionally detail retrieving DAC for sure.
It presents very subtle nuances and inner/ micro information well,finger pressure on piano keys, minute voice inflections, fine differences of overtones and harmonics are quite special. Micro dynamics are handled as completely as the macrodynamics.
The important distinction is that these low level details are natural and realistic, there`s nothing of a clinical/analytical quality what so ever. You are made aware of the venue size and scale(lots of ambience) and each recording is unique and individual in this regard.
Tonanlity is in my opinion top tier, the full body and richness(not overly rich however) of instruments are preserved and have`nt been stripped of vitality, color and energy. this superior trait is so vital to me as the vast majority of my music is unamplified acoustic jazz. With the larger jazz bands the many varied sounds and tones of all instruments are simply realistic and organic with really fine seperation(no matter the # of instruments and volume level, impressive!).
I think this DAC will appeal to people who placed a major priority on natural flowing music , pure tone and harmonics along with realistic dynamic ebb and flow.
I don`t focus intently on imaging and soundstage, but I will tell you the stage is very large with very good depth. Images are IMO dense and very 3-D( living breathing flesh and blood presence).The Octave is well extended at both ends, I find the higher frequencies refined and elegant, at least in my system there`s no edge or sharpness.
Overall I`d sum it up as in the organic-emotional camp but includes high detail and resolution capabilities(superb transparency) This is a very involving DAC. |
Hi,
Pani the bass is very much like the Yamamoto`s (meaning very good) it at this early stage is controlled and natural. I would say it has good articulation and notes are distinct. I`ve not noticed bloated or "one note" bass issues thus far. There`s no overdamped-too tight hifi charactrer present, again quite natural in my system anyway.
David,
I don`t use any upsampling, just native 16/44.1 with my PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport, it sounds just fine. Perhaps upsampling could be even better, I don`t know(Srajan Ebaen felt either method was very good).
All I can say is that I`m highly impressed with the Octave`s insertion in my system,exceptionally natural and involving. YMMV. |
David, I am using Wave Editor and routinely upsample 16/44.1 files, first 16->24 bit, then 44.1->88.2 kHz (relative order matters here). I prefer the sound of these upsampled 24/88.1 kHz files, it appears smoother, more liquid, but the difference is not dramatic. I am using Amarra 2.32, Audiophilleo2 and Metrum Octave. |
Hi Charles,
I've been following this thread, since I have an Octave on order as well.
Are you using any sort of software upsampling, say with Pure Music or similar program? I'd be interested to hear what you think with and without upsampling. Everyone I've read seems to prefer it with software upsampling done by the computer, but that doesn't mean you will.
- David |
Thanks a ton Charles. Another interesting review this is. How is the bass. Is it a bit one note as someone else pointed ?
I will wait for your unit to burn in and then hear your final comments before placing the order. |
