Lewinskih01,
The post office mistakenly has returned my Metrum shipment back to Holland! So unfortunately I`ll have to wait a little longer.
Thank goodness I still have my Yamamoto to enjoy.
Best Regards, |
Hi Onemug,
Your DAC sounds like quite a find. Is it NOS, multibit,R/2R or Delta Sigma based?
I love simple circuits coupled with strong power supplies.
UPS tracking now says my DAC will come tomorrow( good thing I`m a patient man). |
Well at last my Metrum Octave came today(praise the lord!)
Within 20 minutes I had it setup and playing.
To get right to the point, this thing is special,very special. Cees warns of initial brightness and says in several weeks the Octave settles in. This must be system dependent, the sound is quite extended but the high frequencies are refined and a bit sweet, but I don`t appreciate brightness,edge or harshness at all.
This DAC caught me off guard(despite the review and comparisons on 6 moons and the various forums)it is utterly transparent,crystal clear with very high resolution. But here`s the strange part, it as organic and fluid(already) as my Yamamoto YDA DAC with the same smooth-relaxed presentation but it`s clearly more dynamic and bigger sounding, larger scale and noticably faster. This was an unexpected finding at this very early stage.
The Yamamoto is a top performing DAC that has bettered many other digital sources with it`s natural character and tone. I`ve absolutely have enjoyed this DAC and felt it was worth every penny, 2,500 USD in Feb-2010.I must be honest, the Octave is just simply superior(believe me that`s saying something!).I listened to Sarah Vaughn, John Coltrane-Johnny Hartman and then Miles Davis. These were examples of very often played CDs I know so well and have heard in many different systems.
The strong sense of living breathing palpable performers in your space "exceeds" the Yamamoto(which did this so convincingly).
The Octave must have a lower noise floor and or higher S/N ratio, venue nuance,ambience and micro details are rendered on a higher level.
I`m not trying to beatup the Yamamoto(it`s provided me with much musical enjoyment) but in just 3 hours of listening,all of these observations were so apparent.
Summary, Exceptional refined tone and timbre(rich but not fat or bloated)
Beautiful overtones and harmonic preservation(cymbals sound so real and natural, wow!)
Superb transparent and clear sound, no veils at all.
Very high detail level and resolution, yet very organic at the same time. Really similar to the Coincident preamp and SET amplifier.
Maybe after such a long wait I just got lucky, it fits so well with my current components.
All listening was with plain old 16/44.1 Redbook and it`s the best CD sound I`ve ever heard in my system(without question). I`m going to the RMAF in a few days and will run the Octave 24/7 while I`m away.
Best Regards, |
Hello,
Srajan, I only decided to post your email reply to me once I saw it in the public letter section of 6 moons. com. Otherwise I`d kept it private.
Best Regards, |
Hi,
Pani I`ve own the Yamamoto DAC for about 18 months(see my system) it is an excellent sounding DAC.It is very natural with quite an organic presentaion. The dynamics and tone/timbre are honest with a full bodied sound,yet with exceptional resolution and nuance. So far I`ve not heard any other DAC that I`d exchange it for.
However It seems the Metrum Acoustic Octave DAC may be superior. You should read it`s review in the current 6 moons.com. Also read the review of the Totaldac and then read S.Ebaen`s second opinion review.
Please note what the Metrum was compared to for context.I purchased the Yamamoto based on Srajan`s review(he was absolutely spot on). He`s more impressed by the less expensive Metrum. I`ve ordered one and am waiting patiently. This DAC is NOS(no digital filtering) but with R/2R configuration using ultra high speed industrial chips, not the common delta sigma types. It`s said to be sumpremely transparent, organic-analogue like, but with excellent resolution and ease.Much more resolved than most current NOS DACs.
Best Regards, |
Hi,
Pani, I have the SS version
and use the PS Audio PWT as transport(ASI Liveline digital cable) this combo has been wonderful.
Srajan used the Yamamoto as his reference for quite a while.Given his very high praise of the Metrum Octave this certainly got my attention. We must hear things very similar as his strong recomendations have so far been 100% accurate based on my own personal listening followups.
Best of Luck, |
Pani, the only NOS DAC I heard was the Audio Note DAC 5 at CES 2010. It was for about 20 minutes(show conditions) I could`nt form a solid conclusion, but it did`nt really impress under those circumstances.
The Metrum Octave is quite a different approach i.e. much simpler design(good!)non audio chip(ultra high speed industrial, rather than old Phillips chip). It eliminates seperate I/V conversion and output stages(industrial chip intergrates these functions again very simple-fewer parts) also much effort into the power supply. Based on the differences it`s said to be a better-modern design than previous NOS DACs. We shall see. |
Pani,
This is why I suggested you read the Totaldac review for context. That review compared the reviewer`s Yamamoto(which he loved) to the Totaldac and preferred this component. Srajan found the Metrum and Totaldac sonic equals(Metrum is 1/5 the cost!). Pani did you note his comparison to the APL NWO-M? very impressive(more tone,body and presence). As I mentioned before the Yamamoto sounds fantastic(really as good as anything else I`ve heard so far), but this Metrum seems a different level upwards.
He made it a point to emphasize the superior "resolution" and wide bandwith performance compared to typical NOS DACs, yet maintaining a profound analogue like and organic character(mentioned sevral times).He made a point that upper frequency detail,harmonics and decay are very much intact(no rolled off highs). Remember the Metrum is R/2R, based not delta sigma chip(Yamamoto). Srajan obviously thought highly of the Yamamoto(and for good reason) but feels this modern yet simple R/2R designed DAC is quite special. Analogue gestalt and rich tone combined with superior resolution not found in most NOS DACs(weakness of typical NOS DAC). You should read the current 6 moons review of the April Music U3 USB converter where 4 DACs are compared and again note the Metrum comments, very clear opinion.
Best Regards, |
Pani,
Forgot to answer other questions.
1)Payed 2500 USD for YDA-1. JAN. 2010
2) No switch for 110/220 volts
3)Srajan sent me an email saying he did`nt directly compare the YDA-01 and Metrum. But said reviewer Joel thought the TotalDAC clearly bettered his own YDA-01. Srajan considers the Metrum and Totaldac as equally great, thus by triangulation he`d say the Metrum would out performs the YDA-01. |
What seems so promising regarding the Metrum Octave is it retains the innate qualities of NOS DACs,i.e. organic,relaxation,flow etc. yet offers very high level transparency, resolution and extension that some felt NOS DACs lacked.The numerous comparisons in sevaral reviews on 6 moons to the APL NWO-M at 40x the price is the highest compliment.
Clio09, thanks for the article link I look forward to reading it. |
I sent Srajan an email last night and and his reply was very insightful. I thought those following this thread might be intersted.
Hi Srajan,
the APL NWO-M player is considered by many to be one of the very best digital sources, cost no object. What I find astonishing is the equal level of competition from the Metrum Octave mini DAC. The price ratio is an absurd, no make that staggering 43:1! How can that be? Have you ever come across another component that compares evenly performance wise at such a tiny fraction of cost to the other component? How Cees was able to do this is a wonder.
Charles
It's a bit of a mind bender. My friend has the same NWO-M. Except his has 24 x 32-bit AKM 4399s per channel (mine 'only' has 20). And he also has the Metrum. And in two recent comparisons of different ancillaries in his system which I attended, he also preferred the Metrum fed from the NWO-M's Esoteric transport. So the real math must add that portion of the NWO-M's price to the Metrum. This begins to shift the 43:1.
Even so it remains exceptional and surprising. Other listeners could prefer the NWO-M but it's certainly true that the Octave performs on the level. The best way I can hypothesize at this achievement is the FirstWatt factor. Just yesterday we compared Nelson's new S2 prototype at my friend's place to amps at 6 times the price, then replaced a $1.500 preamp with one that was 30 times costlier. The best sound came from the $1.500 preamp with the S2. That preamp has the simplest of circuits. It's fully balanced transformer attenuation and nothing else. The S2 amp is single-stage single-ended no feedback. Simple circuits executed well with superior core devices (a silicon-carbide static induction transistor or power JFet in the amp, Cees' secret 'super' chip in the DAC) can outperform far more complex circuits. And simple can mean affordable if the designers of such pieces don't dress them up with bling but apply a fair raw cost-to-build to retail multiplier.
In amplifiers, paralleling output devices as is necessary to obtain high power from a given part is known to incur performance sacrifices without certain extreme measures. In the NWO-M, Alex Peychev parallels DAC chips 'endlessly' and does the related circuit board work by hand rather than robotically. If you look at the size of the parts on those boards (tiny), you begin to appreciate the hand labor costs involved. But are 24 paralleled delta-sigma DACs wired up by hand automatically better than a superior R/2R chip paralleled four times and inserted robotically in someone else's machine - especially if the latter chips include I/V conversion and output buffering to eliminate two stages where the other machine includes a tube buffer stage and output transformers?
If simpler is better (within reason), more complex and far costlier can lose. The Metrum/NWO-M case seems to be a case in point. Which makes the NWO-M no less of an achievement. It's a complete universal player which includes a 24/192 async USB input. The Octave is just a DAC. But here's the thing. You can only write the way you think. Audio designers can only create sound the way they hear. If you like my self-taught creative way of reviewing better than that of a formally trained writer working for a corporate paper who can recite all the rules and regs of grammar to perfection, the latter's credentials don't come to bear. If you prefer the sonic ideals of a cheap machine's creator to that of a super-priced component, the latter's credentials don't factor. There are multiple layers to consider.
Srajan |
Pani I`ve not heard the Lavry Gold. I must admit the brilliant approach taken with the Metrum is quite exciting to me. I `ve been reading Srajan`s reviews for a long while and by now can sense when he finds a component`s performance exceptonal. He`s very descriptive and clear with his choice of words, If he felt this DAC too dark and or colored, he`d simply say so(he finds the tone natural and realistic, no digital artifacts). The Metrum is a blue moon recipient(as was the YDA-01,but we`re 3 years down the road from that now, things can and do get better).
I`ll put it this way, it you got the YDA-01 I`m convinced you`d love it. My hunch is however given the praise of the Metrum it has taken what the very fine(Yamamoto) does to the next level up.
Yes the wait time is 8-12 weeks( small company, hand built DAC, increased demand now) I`m patient, and the Yamamoto still sounds beautiful. |
All300b,
Go to 6 moons.com letters page and scroll down to the recent corespodence. A reader asked this very question. Srajan said the Burson160D review is`nt quite finished but right now he prefers the Metrum Octave. Note worthy due to his very high regard for Burson against more expensive competitors. Also see comments on the last page of the Aries Cerat Gladius speaker review in the current issue.There additional comments concerning DACs. See his current April Music U3 review where 4 DACs are compared using the U3. |
Hi Pani,
I`ve not heard the Reimyo player. You make some insightful points regarding analogue/digital differences.Music continuity and flow are a high priority for me as is "natural" tone/timbre and harmonics,A good analogue system excels in this vital area.The special ability and uniqueness of the YDA-01 DAC is how sucessful MR. Yamamoto was in obtaining this with his DAC.The flow and continuity is so well done. I do think much has to do with his many years of developing/building analogue and SET tube components, this background is apparent in his DAC.
I feel Yamamoto has near maxed out this quality using the very common delta sigma chip types. My speculation is that ultimately that R/2R DACs implemented correctly can exceed the limits of delta sigma designs(in terms of these "analogue" qualities) This seems to be what Srajan is also suggesting.The R/2R sound is not as "lite up" but is dense,present.3-D and superior in terms of flow,liquidity,ease and relaxation i.e. more similar to well done analogue(which is denser and more filled in).
Further it seems to me the very simple circuit of the Metrum is a major contributor, as many believe(I among them) fewer part count-straight forward design-strong power supply=better sound. Now add the use of a non-audio chip(extreme high speed industrial chip) built by someone who relied heavily on his ears, well good things happen.
Pani, it always comes down to what type of sound you`re after. For me, true tone, natural flow and ease,realistic microdynamics wirh exceptional resolution and nuance is the goal. i`ve achieved that to my satisfaction with my amplifier and linestage. The Yamamoto is very close, I hope The Metrum Octave gets closer yet. I suspect it will.
Best Regards, |
Hi,
Jcote, given your Shindo system I can understand your interest in these 2 DACs. I ordered my Metrum Octave 4 or 5 weeks ago, with a waiting period 8-12 weeks. I will post my impression in the future. KISS principal, yes I agree with you. Based on circuit layout and parts count the Metrum would be considered ultra simple. |
Well, I`ll just say this, Srajan and his friend thought enough of the APL NWO-M to purchase it(it is`nt cheap). It takes honesty and character to say a much less costly item is preferred over what you payed a large sum for and not make excuses. Srajan clearly stated some will like the NWO-M more, and he`s right.I simply respect people who call it as they see it, plain and straight. Many reviewers would`nt have the nerve.
Best Regards, |
Lewinskih01,
The Yamamoto is an oversampling DAC and as I`ve stated in several posts during this thread it is really an excellent sounding DAC. It is very natural,dynamic, liquid yet with very good detail/resolution. The Metrum Octave Takes these attributes and raises(significantly) them is my suspicion. |
Jcote,
I placed my order in early july and Cees said the wait time was 8-12 weeks. No specific date as of yet.I think they`re getting more orders than they anticipated. |
"It`s all personal", Alex, always has been and always will be.Of course not everyone will agree with Srajan`s conclusions, you can`t get audiophiles to agree on anything in an unanimous fashion, it is`nt going to happen. Pointing out measurements don`t impress me at all, they`re a ton of components the look great on paper yet sound can sound like total crap, no need going that route again.
Srajan owned the NWO-M and earlier this year and declared it the "best" digital playback he`d heard to that point(would you question his system or ears based on that?).
to this day he still admires the NWO-M and feels it`s one of the very best. Obvoiusly they`re qualities with the R/2R Metrum Octave that he found better(personal opinion).
Another thing, if one is`nt into trophy audio gear and judges instead on pure sonic criteria, there is much in high end audio that`s over priced. Conversely there`re many reasonably priced components that perform briliantly.
I`d would never use the price of an object alone to determine which is better if there`s the opprotunity to compare directly, which both he and is friend did in this case.
Best Regards, |
Good observation Jcote, the same thought cross my mind. In the end it does`nt matter and does`nt alter the fact that Srajan and friend feel the Metrum sounds fabulous(regardless of price or pedigree). They relied on their ears, and preferred it in their respected audio systems, In this context the specs and measurements are a very distance second in relative importance.They compared the two DACs "directly" and heard what they heard.
These R/2R chips could be sourced from Walmart, who cares if it "sounds" better than NASA approved parts/chips. |
I got an email from Cees regarding my Metrum Octave. He shipped it out last week,I tracked it and it`s just sitting in customs waiting to be cleared. Hope to have it relatively soon. |
Staehli,
Thanks for the very early impressions. Cees said initial sound is bright,and it needs about 3 weeks to settle in.I`m still waiting for my delivery. How long was your waiting period?
I`m really looking forward to the natural tone and timbre that 6moons touted. It seems already you`ve noted high level detail/resolution, that`s encouraging. |
8th of August! Darn, I ordered mine in mid July! Cees says he shipped mine 2 weeks ago, for some reason it has`nt cleared customs(sigh).
Yes, this has unintentionally become a Metrum Octave thread due probably due to my mentioning the Octave while answering a question about my Yamamoto. But really, someone interested in the Yammy will most likely be attracted to the Metrum.
Staehli I look forward to more of your impressions once the Metrum is fully broken-in. |
Thanks for sharing your early impressions. So far most new owners of the Metrum Octave seem to confirm Srajan Ebaen`s conclusion, exceptional transparency,detail and resolution coupled with fully fleshed out tone density,body and ease, That`s a tough act to pull off usally. |
Kyrill1,
Thanks, I`d never sell the Yamamoto before auditioning the Metrum. That`s why I`m in a no lose situation. The Yammy is very fine(my baseline). If the Metrum is even better, then what a treat I`m in for. |
Hi,
Staehli, sorry to hear about your problems with the Metrum. Ironically the upper frequency performance of the DAC is cited as one of it`s strenths in reviews and feedback from nearly all early owners.No etch,edge or brightness(yet very high resolution) per impressions.
Another example of how no component pleases everyone`s ears or works well in all systems. I hope to finally have my re-shipped Metrum Octave very soon and compare for myself.
Staehli I agree that home auditions(with return policy ) is the ideal situation. |
Well, per UPS my Metrum Octave should arrive today. If so I`ll post out of the box impressions and then followup after appropriate burn-in. |
Forgot to mention that the Octave has a seperate 14VA power supply and is non oversampling and based on the R/2R architecture. Due to it being NOS I expected it to be natural and somewhat smooth. What surprised me are the dynamics,detail-articulation and ultra resolution.
If this is how NOS sounds with proper design and execution then I`m completely sold on it, there`s no mush or muck at all. |
Hi,
Pani the bass is very much like the Yamamoto`s (meaning very good) it at this early stage is controlled and natural. I would say it has good articulation and notes are distinct. I`ve not noticed bloated or "one note" bass issues thus far. There`s no overdamped-too tight hifi charactrer present, again quite natural in my system anyway.
David,
I don`t use any upsampling, just native 16/44.1 with my PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport, it sounds just fine. Perhaps upsampling could be even better, I don`t know(Srajan Ebaen felt either method was very good).
All I can say is that I`m highly impressed with the Octave`s insertion in my system,exceptionally natural and involving. YMMV. |
Update impressions of the Octave:
This is an exceptionally detail retrieving DAC for sure.
It presents very subtle nuances and inner/ micro information well,finger pressure on piano keys, minute voice inflections, fine differences of overtones and harmonics are quite special. Micro dynamics are handled as completely as the macrodynamics.
The important distinction is that these low level details are natural and realistic, there`s nothing of a clinical/analytical quality what so ever. You are made aware of the venue size and scale(lots of ambience) and each recording is unique and individual in this regard.
Tonanlity is in my opinion top tier, the full body and richness(not overly rich however) of instruments are preserved and have`nt been stripped of vitality, color and energy. this superior trait is so vital to me as the vast majority of my music is unamplified acoustic jazz. With the larger jazz bands the many varied sounds and tones of all instruments are simply realistic and organic with really fine seperation(no matter the # of instruments and volume level, impressive!).
I think this DAC will appeal to people who placed a major priority on natural flowing music , pure tone and harmonics along with realistic dynamic ebb and flow.
I don`t focus intently on imaging and soundstage, but I will tell you the stage is very large with very good depth. Images are IMO dense and very 3-D( living breathing flesh and blood presence).The Octave is well extended at both ends, I find the higher frequencies refined and elegant, at least in my system there`s no edge or sharpness.
Overall I`d sum it up as in the organic-emotional camp but includes high detail and resolution capabilities(superb transparency) This is a very involving DAC. |
Onemug, thanks for the kind remarks. You can research and read reviews but nothing beats an in house audition. Sometimes anticipation can lead to disappointment and I`ll admit my expectations were pretty high. It is gratifying when they are met or as in this case exceeded. This DAC is really fine. The 6 Moons review is remarkably accurate. I do think there`s much synergy with my system and others may /could have a different experience or out-come |
Soundqcar,
You`re welcome. No component will satisfy everyone, I hope the Octave works out for you as it has for me.
Best Regards, |
Further thoughts on two excellent DACs,
I have over 200 hours on my Octave and stand by my earlier comments with 2 addedums, after re-inserting the Yamamoto DAC into my system the Octave is a very good DAC but it is`nt superior to the Yammy. WITH continued listening and patience subtle differences arise, both DACs are good but one does`nt stomp the other. I feel the Octave has "slightly better",micro detail and venue nuance/ambience but in my system the Yammy is just a "bit" more dynamic with more impact(not that the Octave lacks these qualities).
In terms of tone, timbre and overtones again they`re close but the Yammy is superb with overtone production with just a bit more air. I`d expect the NOS R/2R Octave to be very organic and natural(which it is)but how does Mr. Yamamoto get equal organic character from this oversampling DAC ? The Octave may be more resolved by a tiny margin yet both sound so transparent and veiless.Bass is exceptional with both DACs ,not overdampened nor fat and slow, just natural with control, good tone and weight.
I `ve not notice the high frequency issues at all with the Octave, both DACs are extended and are a bit sweet. Neither has edge,glare or harness.
Both of these are quite fine but with differences that may cause one to be preferred over the other based on taste and system makeup(nothing new there).
The Octave does have a clear value advantage(1K USD vs 2.5k or higher for the Yamamoto, big difference).
At it`s price point the Octave will be very difficult to beat.
In my case that`s a moot point, the Yamamoto is a purist Redbook only player but a damm fine one. In head to head comparisons each will have it`s supporters.
I retain my high opinion of the Octave and I feel the reviews and internet buzz is justified.
The Yamamoto-YDA-01 DAC is a classic, I`m keeping it. As involving as the Octave is, I find the Yammy even more so.Emotional respond to music is hard to explain, but you know it when you feel it. It`s the same reaction as when I replaced an excellent 100 watt push-pull amp with my 8 watt SET 300b amplifier(sublime). |
Clio09,
No disagreement with your observation, I was reflecting on the general/stereotype asumptions that exist. Certainly MR. Yamamoto`s experience and talent with building SET amps and analogue components have much to do with the suceedful DAC design.Personally I believe power supply and the analogue output stage considerations have more to do with the sound than the chip choice. the Yamamoto DAC has 9 seperate regulated power supplies, a very large 150mv transformer and an ultra simple analogue circuit. He knows what he`s doing.
Best Regards, |
|
Hi Pani,
I`ve gradually learned over the years how to choose(works for me anyway) components for true long term satisfaction,. Buy the one that evokes the stronger emotional response and causes an undeniable connection with your music. If it naturally draws you deep into the music`s performance that`s the one I want. |
Kyrill,
In theory what so state makes sense and is interesting. The Yamamoto is 'very' satisfying and often I `m inclined to leave well enough alone. For the cost of the DEXA clock I`d be disappointed with just a modest improvement. |
Kryrill,
Would the DETA clock be more effective with the DAC or the PS Audio transport(memory unit)? Curious. |
Congratulations Debrey,
I think very few people will be diaappointed with the Metrum Octave. Thete`s much talk and praise for the Eastern Electric mini plus DAC. This would be an intereting comparison(same price range). |
Jasper,
When I had the Octave I also found the standard Redbook performance top notch. It could be even better when upsampled(according to some). 16/44.1 was excellent.
Charles |
Kyrill1,
I have no idea what standard clock is placed in my Yamamoto but it sounds so good. If a clock upgrade improves the sound I`d be extremely impressed. |
Kyrill,
Thanks for the information.I`ve heard numerous computer-DAC systems(presumably with lower jitter?) but prefer my PWT and Yamamoto DAC(natural and realistic). I`ll have to think about the super clock option. A case of theory vs reality in regard to actual sound improvement.
What ever MR. Yamamoto is using(I`ve no idea) it`s making beautiful music. |
Kyrill,
"Any transport with a standard clock is hifi" if that`s true then it seems a super clock for the transport rather than the DAC would yield better sonic results.Or you change clocks in both, now it`s getting expensive. |
