Would you pay to listen?

If a dealership starts to charge potential customers to listen, I would think those customers would feel less guilty about listening to some gear and then buying used over the net. I think it would be a slippery slope for dealers to offer such a service.

CES and RMAF already diminish the need to audition at dealerships. The experience is certainly more pleasant at a local dealership with good service, but the shows offer a much broader array of products and with the exposure, buyers have a better idea of what components sound like before they buy them on Audiogon.

Paying to audition components in one's own system is another idea.

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Now that I think about it, guys pay good money to get on a plane, rent a hotel room and buy food to go to CES or RMAF and other shows to see and heard hi-end systems. So, they ARE paying. Even if they drive to the event, with the high cost of gas, they ARE paying. Audiophiles go to these events in large numbers...and there IS a cost involved to get there.
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In a heart beat ,in fact I've often entertained having such a place with several different systems up and down the cost scale.Such a pleasant fantasy at this time.

There are a LOT of humans involved in my stereo...the people who designed the components and sold them (inspired me to buy their stuff) to me are represented well...they aren't in the room with me, but I've been playing for people in clubs, at concerts, and on recordings for over 40 years and trust me...a lot of those actual live people aren't there even when they're there. So there. My stereo is one of the most animate objects I have, it has soul and personality and turns electrons into art...and I'm speaking from a performing musician perspective, and as an obvious philosophical genius (obviously).
Regarding the audio retailers, as with most other semi-dead businesses, they seem to lack spark and creativity...If I put those lazy hours into any of my successful businesses (ar live performances) I would have lost a pile of money...you need to KICK ASS in the business world (and the music performance world) or you get what you deserve...failure.

hi phd:

you are accurate in your asssessment.

however i would not pay to hear inanimate objects rather ai would pay to hear humans use them to create sound.

th human factor is lost when listening to a stereo system.

the only human involved is the listener.

i think it's a value judgment that determines where one wants to spend one's money.

hi phd:

you are accurate in your asssessment.

however i would not pay to hear inanimate objects rather ai would pay to hear humans use them to create sound.

th human factor is lost when listening to a stereo system.

the only human involved is the listener.

i think it's a value judgment that determines where one wants to spend one's money.

I agree with you wolf garcia, about retailers being more inventive in looking for custom and I think some are. I went to a small 4 room show run by a local retailer recently and it was great. Frequent cycling of kit and music meant I spent 5 hours there happily. There was also a local vinyl shop there with lots of used vinyl.

I think some retailers are trying but they are caught between a rock and the proverbial. High margins mean few sales which means higher margins and fewer sales. I would love to know how many sales of kit, not accessories, your average retailer in a moderate sized city makes. I suspect it is very few and they have fixed costs, rent, salaries, utilities to cover. If any would be retailer produced an honest business plan about starting a HiFi shop, he would be laughed out of the door by his banker.

The internet, sites like Audiogon and the shrinking interest on 2 channel high end music reproduction, means that the retail industry is sadly, dying on it's feet. It is sad for all of us, even if we do'nt tend to use them. Fewer stores mean fewer new entrants to our interest/obsession. I suspect most of us started out with an interest in music and wandering into a helpful hiFi store, on an impulse. Then we followed a similar path of obsession, guilt, ruinous expense, relationship breakdown, drugs and penury.

Mrtennis, some of those inanimate objects you are refering to provide a pleasurable listening experience and that is the objective.

it seems silly to pay to listen to stuff--a bunch of inanimate objects.

The level of insulation from the Real World among the Audiophelia (that sounds like a creepy hearing fetish) always mystifies me...I don't think anybody noticed the point I made that high end retail places are awful at attracting new biz...and it is completely their fault. Could they host a jazz band or a solo guitar player maybe? No. And aren't manufacturers dying to come in and show off their stuff? Maybe not, unless they set up a system in a stark hotel room at a show...pathetic.

A thought - maybe the retail price (or discounted MSRP that we usually pay) already includes consideration for the times people walk in just to listen and not make a sale?. Hey, I have a great audio guy (GREAT). Staff always very inviting and willing to play anything for anyone. I have been a customer for over 10 years and have spent mucho bucks - but would still never touch anything.

I've spent $20 in gas/tolls to hear high end systems a number of times, since there are several good dealers roughly 100 miles from me.

I will do this again if/when I get the urge to upgrade or just want to hear what is out there, unless they continue to go out of business. If they do, I will miss the opportunity to spend $20 to hear a high-end system. My $.02

Would I be offended if the store asked me directly for $20? Probably, but only because I think the margins are high enough that it shouldn't be necessary. The fact that brick and mortar high end stores are dropping like flies makes me wonder though.

Only if there is a refund if not satisfied.

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I'd pay money to hear the system in the link below.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1115953260
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Is the question here asking if you would pay to audition a high end stereo system or pay a nominal fee to be able to use a high end stereo system?

If there was a really high end system that I could rent out for $20 per hour and I could spin my own LPs and sit back and listen I would do it. Especially if they had a way to prevent my wife from coming in and interrupting every 3 minutes to ask a question. Hell I already pay a lot more than that to rent out a cart and the real estate to hit a white ball every week.

..by the way. I test drove a Ferrari, and they didn't charge me...why would I pay to hear a stereo system. Don't you EVER use the word Mazda and Ferrari in the same month. You just don't know.

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I'd pay money to hear this system.

Siriusly, the room's the thing!
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If an audio dealer wanted to check my credit before letting me listen to THINGS THEY WERE TRYING TO GET ME TO BUY, they would never again see me or my hard earned money. Is there some weird cult of salespeople worship going on here? At a fave museum of mine you can stand right in front of a Van Gogh with a swiss army knife in your pocket, and that sucker is worth more than any hifi gear (the painting, not my little knife). I don't think any damage can be done to audio gear by listening to it. Test driving a car has obvious risks. I played a friend's $200,000 guitar once (59 Les Paul Standard)...I could have dropped it I suppose, but hey, life is risks! Also, when I listen to some amazing music on my system late at night I think, "man...this sounds like a million bucks".

Mr tennis would you pay to be able to compare what your system can do vs a 100k system can do?
I would think most of the audiophiles have that question in the back of their mind;it is something I do think about but in reality will probally never be answered.

The so-called high-end dealers should perform a credit check first, before honoring such requests. Audi dealers do that in a very subtle way. You sure don't want an used car buyer to test drive an brand new Audi for the hack of it.

;-)

hi mitch 4t:

in principle, based upon your paradigm of the context of the listening environment you propose, i would not pay to listen. there is no justification in my mind to pay for listening to a pre-owned stereo system , regardless of its alleged quality.

You got that right Rleff. Or maybe the big Audio Classics w the field coil driver. But I agree with David12 and Wolf that it ain't gonna happen in the real world, beyond an open listening promo session that a high-end boutique might offer. Can you imagine someone allowing any Tom Dick or Harriette to handle their $10K tonearm w a $15K nude cantilever cart on it. I know I would not. I also agree that its hard to understand why more dealers don't offer once a month evening sessions. Beside generating good will, it might be a viable way to separate the tire-kickers from the buyers.

I would if atmasphere's preamp and MA3's were driving the best soundlab speaker made today;using a top digital source and analog setup;I think I would place down a twenty.

Mitch4 Sorry, that is'nt going to happen. It would'nt be a viable business model, to set up premises just to sell listening time for HiFi. It would have to be in a store selling kit as well, to make it viable. High end stores have the time. When have you ever been to one where customers are fighting to get assistants attention.

The store has fixed costs in terms of rent, the kit itself, salesmen, why not sweat the assets by selling listening time.

I repeat, I do'nt think it is fair to go to a store and audition, if you are not in the market to buy, at least without being upfront and saying why you are in the store. If the manager is happy to help foster good elations with a customer, that's fine. I for one, would frequent a store with that outlook. It never ceases to amaze me, how many shops are downright rude and dismissive of potential customers, howdo they stay in business. You have to encourage your customer base, say with open access demo evenings, with coffee or a few beers.

Yo Mitch4t...my day job is Comedy Writer.

And I would pay $20 to watch people scurry around wiring up a 200K system I've designed for them to assemble for me. That in itself would be worth it..."little to the left there Bob...and don't forget the Magic Bricks and Mpingo discs"...listening to it would be gravy after watching a sweaty tech earn less than an oil changer at Jiffy Lube. Still, to revisit the real world for a moment, I think these high end gear sales dudes are missing a great opportunity that recently was grabbed by the guitar freaks...make it sexy. Ever see "Guitar Aficionado" magazine (pretty funny over the top nonesense)? It's pure "guitar porn" not really matched by any of the hifi mags I've seen...and the overpriced world of "guitars actual musicians can't afford" is booming. If you look at an issue of Architectural Digest, except for maybe an overstuffed "Media Room" for film and popcorn digesting, there is almost NEVER a visible "wealth level appropriate" audio rig anywhere.

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Mr. Tennis,

I'll be more specific. The place you go to hear the system would not be a dealer, just an establishment that sells listening time, similar to the kind of establishment that sells studio time to musicians. You go into a room with the dimensions of your choosing. Acoustically, the room has been professionally prepped to get optimum results. You pay one dollar per $10k of equipment that you want to listen to. That is, ten bucks if you want to hear $100k worth of gear, twenty bucks if you want to hear $200k worth of gear. You choose the mfg and models of any and all equipment that you want to hear. You are free to mix and match any gear of your choosing. The listening session would be private, or you could have guests if you choose to. Bring your own cd's, LP's, sacd's, open reel tapes or hard drives. Of course, none of the gear would be for sale. If you'd like to buy any of the equipment, you would have to contact the mfg and find a dealer on your own. No salesmen would be on the premises, just the trained tech to assemble the system that you've specified. If you think you are smarter than the tech, you are welcome to make suggestions or set up the system yourself.

The whole idea is to hear equipment that you'd probably never be able to afford to own. If I could afford to buy it, I'd just buy the damn thing. But, the system that I want to hear costs north of $400k. Unless I hit the Mega-Powerball lottery, I'll never be able to afford such a system, but I'd sure pay money to hear it.
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Mrtennis, thankyou sir for your difference of opinion, this is what makes the threads more interesting to read at times. Sometimes it is hard for me not to want to try other products especially ones that have been ranted over and then have to pay for that privilege on top of it. If the crowd is all moving to the right, I may go in that direction to see what all the fuss is about. Human nature I suppose.

i just realized that the question "would you pay to listen" is ambiguous.

it's obvious that if you travel to rmaf or ces there is a travel, room and board cost asoociated with the trip.

i believe the connotation of the question is:

would you pay to listen to a component or stereo system ?

if so, i would not.

while it is less costly to outlay $50.00 than to buy a component , sell it and loss more than $50, out of principle, i refuse to pay to listen to a stereo system, regardless of its alleged reputation of sound quality.

i guess i'll miss the experienece.

i won't pay $50 to borrow a component either.

i'll find a component that i can borrow for an audition, without paying for it.

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Okay Wolf, you blew that one by me. I thought that you'd flipped out. Thanks for the offer of the ladder, but I suggest you hold onto your day job.....
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Mitch4t...Wow...that one just steamed right by ya! Sorry though. I do have trouble with the practice of any form of mirth control. However, I suppose humorous or satirical writing has NO place in an audio forum and from now on I promise to be dreary and technical and keep my satirical rants to myself. Or not. Please let me know when I cross the line...I can also loan you a ladder to help insure that in the future less things go over your head.

Would i pay to listen? ..... depends on who's singing !!!!

To be honest, only a fool would pay twenty bucks an hour to hear a high priced system. However I just happened to be one of those fools. In fact I have paid fifty dollars just to demo a new piece of gear for a weekend. The logic behind this is, it is better to spend fifty dollars then pay the full price and find out your not happy with your purchase. However if you do decide to buy the dealer would apply the fifty towards the purchase price.

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Wolfman, get a grip, you're losin' it man.

Take a tip from the previous post by Manoterror below:

lol…where do you guys get the curmudgeon sized vat of starch for your underwear?

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I think "whoring out" a high end audio system turns the owners into "audio pimps." Sleezy back door deals would be made..."OK Bob...10 bucks and you can hear the intro to Mahler's 8th and THAT'S IT pal!" "Hey there mister...wanna come in for some Chesky 180 gram?...come on baby..the first 3 minutes are FREE!" I can see the drooling audiophiles in the alley digging into their Dockers for a crumpled 20 to slide into the greasy palm of the doorman..."Come on dude...I gotta hear the Magicos...please man...all I got at home is Adcom and Polk." Then, of course, the gear world would be littered with Wilson Sophias in tattered grill covers and shop worn woofers wandering Ebay with no shread of self respect...

Bad spelling is part of my charm.

Unfortunately, being a wise-a$$ is part of mine.

I would rather spend $600 and spend 3 days at RMAF - a great "vacation" for audiophiles.

Absolutely. A great time and shows just how good some modest equipment can sound AND how mediocre some very expensive rigs can sound.

Absolutely, I would. I just heard a $105,000 system at Audio Video Logic near where I live in Des Moines and it was absolutely fabulous. Of course that was free (and they provided the beer - nice guys). I can see myself paying $20 - $30 to hear a $200,000+ system (especially if it was an analog rig in a well-executed dedicated room.

Do i have a problem spending $20 bucks to experience something truly high end? Not at all. I enjoy the hobby far more than I enjoy television or movies and the opportunity cost of the $20 is insignificant.

It would be fun to gain perspective on what the truly high end can do as my system is worth about a quarter of that (though much of it is Chinese gear which I feel increases SQ per dollar ratio significantly).

That said, I would be scared to open a can of worms that might help me identify flaws in my own system or 'sonic preferences' I didn't know I had...

Nope...I agree with Tvad

Balloons. Bad spelling is part of my charm.

I would rather spend $600 and spend 3 days at RMAF - a great "vacation" for audiophiles. The worst sounding system I ever heard, well at least I felt the need to leave the room, was an all Cello multiamp, blah, blah with huge speakers costing several 100Ks and purchased with giddy dot.com $$$ with no prior audio experience. I could not believe how unpleasant it was to listen to, but I did not have the heart to tell the fella.... Really, much more impressed by great 25K systems (not cheap)which can be as good as it gets, and a lot more fune to build than just throwing $$$ in the hopes of a great system.

Agree w Wolf. Never give away free "baloons";~)

Dealers who would encourage limiting their customer base in ANY WAY, either with an elitist attitude or fees, I would consider insane and clearly not interested in staying in business. Having seen a lot of high end audio places die over the last several years (and employing one former owner at my own financial services company) I can suggest to these last few to open the doors wide. The fact that anybody whould feel guilty visiting a retail location when not intent on buying anything in particular should cause the sales people to panic. They should host free concerts and PAY the musicians, free manufacturer seminars, give out free munchies and baloons (well...maybe not baloons), do SOMETHING to lure people in there so they can educate the public about their groovy piles of gear and maybe SELL SOME OF IT. There are plenty of reasons for the lack of interest among most people in high end audio, the most obvious being retailers not seeming to be interested in reaching out beyond their core of "hobbyists", and that is just sad and more than a little stupid.

The more I think about, the more I think, what an excellent idea. Prpixel, the point you make about you needing to sell listening space for 8 hours a day for 3 years, to break even, seems to miss the point. I presume we are talking of dealers opening up there top listening rooms to the poor unwashed. They do'nt have to cover the cost with selling listening time as you are selling the kit too.

I personally wo'nt go to a dealer unless I am in the market to buy, it is'nt fair on them. It does'nt mean I am going to buy, just I might if I am impressed. Yes a live gig might be better, but only one artist and not playing what you specifically want to hear.

So the more I think about it, the more intersting an idea it becomes. Dealers do this already with open evenings to listen to a particular set up. Why not offer listening sessions when they are quiet. They build a relationship with potential clientele and you get a guilt free audition. Everybody seems to win here.

Few retail businesses have the potential "snoot factor" that "High End Audio SALONS" can have. I've spent bundles of cash in the ones who merely treat me with courtesy and professionalism and laugh at the others. That said, if the "salon" wants to charge to hear things, it's up to the public to accept it...and I bet it would be seen as a "last gasp" of an apparently elitist establishment on their way to Chapter 11.

Mitch4t
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Mrtennis, a dealer was never entered into the equation of this post and never was it implied. As a matter of fact I made sure to express that there would be no pressure or expectation to buy anything.

From the posts following this statement I see MrT and I aren't the only ones who figured the question pertained to a retail audio salon of some sort.

I just re-read my early post to this subject.

I'll reiterate but rephrase. Casual drop ins would be discouraged by what basically amounts to an admission ticket.

IF the store had a dedicated room with 'the really neat' system which you had to pay to hear.... but the rest of the store were open/free/accessible? That would change the balance. 'Show' the system and charge. Tubes / media / floor space cost a bundle.
BUT:
In order to attract new listeners, you have to be able to SHOW people it is better.
The BOSE store I went by yesterday had a good walk-in trade. People talking tech with SALES guys, not necessarily interested in the best sound or interests of the customer. IF the Bose store charged even 1$ to get in, many would walk on by.

yeah, without a doubt I would pay to listen. If you buy, maybe you get a refund on the listening session?

Sorry Tvad my response was kinda cryptic! Damn touch predictive screen keyboard ####, What was meant was I'd rather spend the twenty on the drink minimum.

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Mrtennis, a dealer was never entered into the equation of this post and never was it implied. As a matter of fact I made sure to express that there would be no pressure or expectation to buy anything. The same as when someone goes to the theater to see a movie, there is no salesman standing nearby expecting you to buy a projector...same here.

The fact that shows like the Rocky Mtn AudioFest and CES exist, pretty much confirms there is a good sized contingent of audiophiles willing to travel and pay good money to see and hear very expensive audio.................and then again, some wouldn't pay a nickel to see either of those two shows.

In the words of the inimitable Sylvester Stewart "Diferent strokes for different folks....and so on and so on....".
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