Do it cheap, forget those guys who are spinning tales of thousands of dollars! For years I was a record collector with a cheap technics into a boombox to play my 2000+ LP's and 1000 7's! Then a friend gave me an old NAD and I dropped major bucks- $100! on a used Dual and loaded a Denon 165 on it. It blew away my Philips CDP (also $100). I was a happy camper till I blew out one of my Mitsubishi ($30 used) speakers listening to the Stooges Funhouse too loud. Man, those were the days. Every record sounded great, CD's were easy to play and life was good. My total investment to play records was about $225 including Discwasher record cleaning kit.
Now I have a modded Oracle ,Benz Ace ,Sonic Frontiers yada yada yada, hi-end power cords yada etc.....but spinning a record on even a cheap rig is still listening to music. And there are still lots of stores out there dumping decent used lp's cheap, and ebay etc on the internet has plenty more. Audioasylum is filled with stories of major Goodwill or estate sale finds. Boxes of records for $10! It's true, you will end up buy more and better equipment, I finally dumped my old manual Nitty Gritty for a VPI auto record cleaner. Next up a new tonearm and cart. But the sounds you hear along the way will inspire you. Analog totally rules.
I've been buying records since the early 70's so when I meet these young pups I play 'em some vinyl and if nothing else, the used shops have sold a few Dual or Thoren's decks thanks to me. Plus there's lots of stuff that you can't get on CD. And forgot that tired old line about cleaning your records. Sure it's great if you want, but I know plenty of guys with nothing but a Discwasher brush and fluid and some Bounty paper towels and they have more records than most audio-fillets I know. And when I'm listening to records at their house all I'm hearing is music. Unless you really beat up your records they'll sound fine. In fact most audio-fools that I know listen to utter dreck of highly well recorded crap to show off their systems. One more guy tells me to "listen to the bass sound on this Tom Petty track" and I'm gonna puke!
An LP collection is not a problem. Cheapest software available -- TT and Phono stage, cartridge, Record Cleaning Machine, learning how to set everything up -- so it's not easy but -- would I? Absolutely!!
At any time there are approximately 150,000 LP's (used and new) for sale on eBay, most of them in pristine condition, and often selling selling for a fraction of the price of a CD. As one example, I recently got a dozen Count Basie LP's from one seller, many appearing unplayed, for $3 each! If you make the investment in even a moderately good playback system, I believe this is the cheapest way to get superb sound.
Starting from 'scratch' will require a lot of patience and discretionary income. Good analog rigs and new, virgin 180g - 200g vinyl is expensive. Also, you MUST wash (at least once) your records for optimum play back results....additional costs and time required. I enjoy my vinyl collection, and analog rig, and hope you decide to enter into the field as well. The sound quality is superior to red book cd's. Regards
I bought my TT when CD's were just becoming the rage 20 years ago or so - and I never attained the magic I heard in the showroom, so I went along with CD's. Then finally, a pro set the arm properly, sold me the right cartidge, and I had upgraded the phono pre. Well, there was music like I had always wanted. So, if you're really into the listening, then a TT is unbeatable.
It really depends on what you listen to. For example, I listen to quite a bit of indie rock, and yesterday I bought:
1) Cat Power--You Are Free (Matador, 2003, 150g), and 2)The Shins--Chutes Too Narrow (Sub Pop, 2003)
Each cost me $11 new and just kill! They are both discs that I'd had bought on CD if that were the only option. There's a TON of new vinyl out there for the taking in indie rock, punk, rap, and reggae--and these genres haven't had the grotesque price inflation that's happened to jazz. I mean, no one likes Mingus Ah Hum more than I do, but I'm not going to pay $40 for a reissue.
I still say, whichever components you upgrade will probably sound better. Some cd recordings are great, some are bad. Some vinyl recordings are great, some are bad.
If I have a great cd player & DAC for instance, I believe cd will sound better than if I have an average vinyl set-up. If I get a better turntable, whatever, my records will sound better than average digital.
Keep playing the upgrade game and see who wins? Then factor in the convienience, storage space, and skips and pops.
Dennis_the_menace, You're the second poster today raving about the Vector (unless your name on VA is Steve_DC). STOP IT ALREADY! You guys are driving me nuts. I want one so bad it hurts, but we have to buy a RCM first.
Spinitch, Buy the Teres. Our $2K CDP hasn't played more than 1 or 2 hours in the six months since we got our Teres. The Teres hasn't STOPPED for more than 1 or 2 hours! :)
I'm 26 and didn't own a single record 1 year ago. Like most of the young posters in this thread, I bought the records because I was curious. I played them on a friend's rig until I could get my own analog setup. I did the same with video games, movies, and even CDs. I always buy the media before the player.
You're going to have to go out and buy some records before you get the analog front end. The setup itself is easy. Just plunk down the green and upgrade from there. The hard part is getting records. You're going to need to see how easy and enjoyable it is for you to acquire records both locally and via mailorder. Either you are going to like it or you won't. And you won't know until you try.
My tastes largely focus on classical and heavy metal. And I have local supplies of both. But just as there are some titles in both genres that I can only get on vinyl. The same holds true for the 5 inch polycarbonate disc. So I have both front ends. Contrast this with my SACD venture which was largely a waste of time. At least is was for me. YMMV.
Yes - I too was put off by the hassles. But since I could not decide on a decent CDP, decided to give Vinly a try. Was/is a little more work, but very enjoyable. A different sound. Adventures finding music, plus more variety. I am still looking for a CDP. Will be even harder now that will have to compete with vinly. But in a way good, not looking to replicate vinly but compliment. I may just take the funds for CDO and get one of those sexy Teres, but even my current setup provides enjoyable sound so actually content for a while.
I'm 32, never owned a record up until 12 months ago (save for some 12" remixes), and started to build a serious analog setup a little less than a year ago. I guess I have about 300 records now, many of them new releases, and about 4 months ago, sold my Wadia 860x to invest in a better cartridge and tonearm.
I've never had so much fun or enjoyed music as much as I now do.
My most recent addition, a Basis Vector, has completely transformed my system. Adding the Vector has probably been biggest improvement I've made since getting bitten by the upgrade bug. Before the Vector, it was often a toss up between CD and LP; whichever had the better recording won. And although I can't compare to my Wadia, I do know that my LPs have never sounded so great. The Vector improved everything! Explosive dynamics! Big body! Lush, liquid tone! Great detail without the hot sibilance! Coherency, musicality, imaging... everything! I'm pretty blown away... how the hell can a tonearm make that much of a difference??
anyway... now more than ever, I am SO glad I decided to just go for it. It's been so worth it (admittedly, I've spent a small fortune on my analog rig).
Digital is just information, not music. :) I do still use my ceedee player from time to time. It helps remind me just how good my $1700 analog front end sounds.
With my CD/SACD player, I savor Coltrane, Monk, Miles, Diz.....no needle scraping dust out of the grooves, no clicks and pops, no obsessive compulsive rituals in the constant fight against dust and scratches...just music.
ARs have the best isolation on the business. Sorry, Linn owners, Linn having one of the worst. Otherwise, wall mounts do work - even in drywall - for a lot less than a thousand bucks. Then there's your friendly neighborhood stud-finder. Let's face it, all this talk of the great inconvenience of LP playing is nothing more than a witch-hunt, and rationalisation for making the mistake of selling all those LPs years ago. Ooo, you have to get off your ass twice instead of once when playing an album. As for ticks and pops, there are quiet stylus and noisy ones, better tonearms and worse ones, phono stages which highlight noise and ones which don't. As always, some thinking and listening is required. And the payoff is blessed music, not some computer-chip approximation. What's more, the level of involvement is fun and rewarding, the LP jackets so much cooler and more fun to discover and collect. Each new cartridge has the quality of a fine new wine, something to look forward to and savour...CD players?
I haven't slogged through the whole thread here, so maybe it's already been mentioned, but a major consideration should be children -- your own or those who may come to visit. Aside from the potential economic choices vinyl may force you to make (do we have another baby or do I spring for that separate synchronous motor power supply this year...?), you will also have to develop a robust set of defensive countermeasures to safeguard your turntable shrine area. If YOU find drawn to turntables, imagine how alluring they must look to a toddler. (Hey, what's that little pointy thing hanging underneath the long black tube? I should probably scrape it really hard several times with my thumbnail to check it out...hey, it broke off...) I normally try to keep the turntable semi-hidden by keeping the dustcover closed, with a big pile of cd's and a plant on top. And with #4 Son, the craftiest of the clan, I NEVER LET HIM SEE ME PLAY A RECORD. If he saw me open the dustcover and he realized what interesting things were in there, that rig would be in pieces next time I came home from work. Then there's the vibration isolation. Once in a while I try to cheat and play a record while my kids are awake, and at least one of them will come BOUNDING into the room and start some wild dance, which is good, except that my crusty Linn LP12 tries to start dancing too, and after a few hops by the tonearm across the record, the music stops. You see, I haven't gotten around to investing a thousand bux into adequate vibration isolation. I'm going to move to the concrete floor of the basement and use a lower, better platform, but even then I'll have to erect some sort of barriers around it. I could use the specialist wall shelf I had mounted to brick in England, but the drywall back home here in the U.S. carries so much vibration that I doubt there's much point. There's more, but you get the idea. So having said all that, I have to admit that I'm going to be like my father when he said, "I smoke, but you shouldn't, because it's bad for you." Despite the endless hassle, I like vinyl and will continue to monkey with it, but if you have the choice, this is a well from which you should probably not sip. Just walk away. There are plenty of other things that you can spend your time and money on that will give you more pleasure and benefit.
I re-iterate my earlier point: that spending loads of dosh is not necessary to building an extremely musical amd informative vinyl rig. The trick is in choosing musical items over analytical items, in which of course, the more money you spend the more information you retrieve (with certain exceptions, however...). Vinyl's great advantage over digital media is it's musicality. Therefore aim for Prat and that sense of organic flow first, everything else second. Classic 3-point suspension designs such as the ARs, Aristons, Thorenses, and Linns are masters of Prat and flow. Regas are musical and have great Prat as well. Many of these 'tables can be had for $300 with decent arm: say an AR EB101, or others, which often come with Sumiko MMTs and so on. Add $200 Shure V15VxMR cartridge. Buy Antique Sound Labs tubed Mini Phono for $250. Total $750. Buy a NAD PP2 and the price drops by $150. Buy a plastic Grado and the price drops by another $100. Now we're at $500. Not only does such a system have great Prat and flow, it is also surprisingly detailed. Forget the overpriced re-issues, buy in used stores at $5 to a buck or less a piece. At this price this is fun, and very soon you will have hundreds of records: try buying good used CDs for a buck or less. And it would take a mega-buck CD-player to match or beat the AR/MMT/Shure combo even for information - as air, imaging and timing are also forms of information, which only the very rare and very expensive CD players can convey. The combo also retrieves a hell of a lot of simple detail as well. Those who say a mega-buck combo is NECESSARY have bought, or are planning to buy, mega-buck combos and are competing with the Joneses. Magic - where vinyl absolutely crushes digital media - can be had for much less. Remember, it's about music, not money, not information. Here I hasten to add that such a well-chosen combo retrieves an astonishing amount of information nevertheless. So, no great dedication to the cause is necessary: at these prices one can experiment, have a different experience, and have fun. With such a well-chosen system and at these prices and with fun in mind, there will soon be a convert.
It really doesn't make much sense unless you are convinced that vinyl is way superior in sound to digital, and that is your main concern.
Many vinyl disciples have a huge investment in records that they have been collecting for decades. If I had a thousand(s) LP's, I would want to believe that vinyl was the best sounding format, no matter what came along in the future.
Nevertheless, vinyl MAY BE the best sounding format there is. However, if you read other threads on Audiogon you'll see that at least some of the same people touting the virtue of vinyl here, are also saying that you don't get the most out of the format without the best gear. Meaning big bucks. Check out the prices of some turntables, and audiophile records.
So, what to do? There is nothing wrong with doing both. I have a decent Pioneer turntable, and about 300 LP's. But, I started out when vinyl was the only game in town. I still enjoy listening to them once in a while, but it is a lot more convienient to listen to cd's. LP covers, on the other hand, are much better to hold in your hands than a jewel box (to read too). That is one thing I miss with cd's.
I think well recorded cd's sound better than LP's with the equipment I own. I also think I could buy better vinyl gear that would sound better than cd's.
There are many used record stores with a lot of product. the problem is that you will have to invest in some record cleaning equipment. You will be surprised how good some of the bad looking vinyl can sound. With time you will be able to tell the difference between a worn out record and a dirty record. The used vinyl I find is very reasonable.
Well, lets just say, if you will not bother, you will never know. It is not a requirement for vinyl afficionados to be rich. I started 9 months ago without any LP to call my own. Just like TWL, I accumulated more vinyl than expected in such a short time. Mine is now close to 2000. Vinyl will totally change your listening habits and equipment choice. It will make you patient, it will make you choose your gear wisely. It will teach you how to really listen to what a sound of an instrument or voice should be. It takes much more effort to listen to it than CDs. If you have the heart to try, please do. You will not regret it. By the way, TWL, is the one to listen to for the advice on vinyl equipment choice. One last word, "Teres".
2 years ago, I didn't have one single record, nor did I have a turntable. I now have over 1000 records and a fine turntable system, and my digital player has been sold.
You know you either want to get into finding old records, finding good supplies, or you just go with the digital trend and be done! Yes, there is some absolutely stunning, superb, and glorious(even better on the whole than the digital offerings out there often) sound to be had from good analog, no doubt. I think however, you are either willing to commit to hunting down analog and making a hobby out of it(records), or your not. I'm not personally. I just like plain CD, maybe better, and HT. And I do like music. But unless you're ready to commit, and/or you already have a good record collection, you should strongly consider your time and effort. It may be worth it, maybe not. If you go to the shows every year(CES/Hifi show/etc), you may listen, and like. If so, and your gut say's, absolutely, then you might get a small Project table, Rega, etc, and pick up a few records. Then, if you're absolutely, sold, go further. Hope this helps. Me personally, I grew up in the digital age of gen X'ers. I just happend to dig HT/Digital, and music second. So for me, it's easy. good luck
as with most of the questions raised in these forums it is left to the individual to decide for themselves what is best.my buddy up the street is into vinyl big time and before any of my components were anywhere near good quality,his system really impressed me.now that our systems are closer together in terms of a fair comparison,another session at his place for a vinyl vs cd comparison would help me decide.just my opinion but it appears within the vinyl arena that upgrading ones arm,cart.,ect makes it all the more appealing.a person can go with vpi or rega,start slowly and relatively cheaply and as funds become available,upgrade without having to replace the unit completely.
In retrospect, and if I didn't know better, it may appear that the initial post in this thread was crafted to spark the "conversation" that has followed. I will just leave my challenge out the for anyone who wants to bite.
Funny how those who never post, or vary rarely post, in the section of the 'Gon are drawn into this thread.
yes. it does not have to take a lot of money, but as noted by previous posters, it DOES take quite a bit of patience. i was asking myself this very question about 2-3 weeks ago, and i just set up my first vinyl setup this weekend. total investment (after a minor reconfiguration of my equipment) was very modest, but it has been one heck of a fun and educational experience. and the sound? i have a very modest system, but i think the sound is top notch. and yes, the vinyl is substantially better than cd on my system. plus, your pre-amp has an excellent phono stage, so you don't even have to worry about that.
i think you will also find that the vinyl/analog community is a very helpful, supportive one. if you are the type of person that doesn't mind being meticulous about things, and get your reward from the music itself, i think vinyl would be a great move for you.
as for software... i listen to classical music about 75% of the time, and the availability of old classical records is great. prices do seem to have increased lately, but buying used vinyl is no more expensive than buying new/used cd's.
so, to make a long story short, i think it is absolutely worth it to give vinyl a try. even if you end up thinking it's not worth the hassle and maintenance, at least you can say that you gave it a try. more optimistically, you may find that, like me and hundreds of other people out there, music is simply more engaging and rewarding through a well though out vinyl setup.
I guess I should qualify my answer. Personally I would not because of all the maintenance issues associated with vinyl. On top of the cost of good quality vinyl(180g-250g) about $40.00 a pop. SACD is just to good for me to even consider getting into vinyl. However, having said that you seem to have an interest. You can always try it (buy used) and if you don't like it sell the equipment here on audiogon. As you can see there are quite a few enthusiasts who love it.
If I were you -- no way would I start into vinyl at this point. Clicks and pops and constantly fighting the war against dust in your grooves...I don't care if you gave me the LP, there's no way I want to be stuck playing LP's with all those clicks and pops. Fuhgedaboudit! Digital has gotten too good to put yourself through all that -- same with digital players. I gave up all my vinyl a little while ago and have never looked back. Just my opinion.
I agree with Johnnantais with respect to the silly hand-wringing over cost. The ONLY issue with respect to cost is that if you have no LP's, it will cost a good deal to build a library of music. But, if you also have no CD's, or very few, even building a music library will be cheaper with vinyl, unless all you desire is 50s jazz or rare classical pieces. You can spend what Johnnantais speaks of and maybe be very happy, especially when compared to the same money spent on digital. You can also spend 3-4 times, or more, what he is speaking of and be thrilled - and I'd wager much more thrilled than the same dollars spent on digital. I think most people that say no to this have either bought products that don't mate well, are suspect to begin with, and/or lack the knowledge or are too lazy you do a proper setup.
Taking off on the Johnnantias, I'll toss down the gauntlet.
Say there are two guys who have the same linestage, amp, and speakers. Now, let's deal in retail pricing. I'll buy a Nottingham Spacedeck w/Spacearm ($2,700), Shelter MKII ($700) cartridge, a K&K Audio phono stage ($1,800), a $300 IC of your choice, and let's throw in $500 for a VPI 16.5 vacuum machine and 4 bottles of Record Research Cleaners while were at it since I can anticipate the wailings with respect to cleaning. That's $6,000. NOT chicken feed to most mortal folks, like me.
You go out and spend $6,000 retail on a transport, DAC, IC, and any kind of CD cleaner/Auric illuminator/etc. you want.
We'll butt heads with the same music and let an audience decide. I'll place my money on the big disc. In short, argue all you want with respect to the cost of building a music library from scratch and Ill agree. Trot the same argument out for the price of equipment, and you got just that, an argument! :-) (BTW, I'd also throw down the gauntlet for nearly any price level one might want to select, instead, on a comparative basis).
I think if I were you, I would buy a few of my favorite recordings on LPs. Try to pick a few of your very favorites, espcially those that were either recorded for analog first (ie. before the '90s) or are accoustic in nature (preferably both!) This is not a huge investment, maybe up to $50-100 or so.
Then, I would go to a friend who has a good analog setup, or failing that, to a dealer (who not only has the analog system you are thinking of, but who also has your amplification and/or speaker system), and who will let you play through all your albums (dedicating an hour or two to your listening session).
Then after you have tried that, if you are not convinced that analog is for you, then sell those few albums for a slight loss, and enjoy your collection of CDs, knowing that you gave analog a decent shot.
I'm betting your will end up joining us who are hooked using analog, but if you don't, at least you gave it your best shot. (If you don't that's great too! All the more LPs for me!)
Even when vinyl was the dominant medium, I would buy something and immediately transfer it to tape. I couldn't stand geting up every twenty minutes or endure the surface noise and the devil's "pop" at the most intimate part of the music. Seemed like every time you'd play an LP there would be a new crackle. I think things are better today with premium vinyl formulations and advanced record cleaning machines. However, with limited resources, I focus on digital or vinyl but not both (if you're after primo sound).
What's all this "be prepared to spend a ton of money" crap?!! There is a lot of choice for excellent reproduction at good prices, with 'table, tonearm, cartridge and preamp for a total of under a grand, considering the huge amount of quality used 'tables out there. With good choices, you can assemble something in this price range which will make most digital media sound like the dross it is. The tubed ASL Mini Phono sells for $200 new, there are the lower Regas, used Thorenses, ARs (which musically-speaking can kick the ass of a lot of high-end dross out there), Aristons, the Shure 97, Grados, cheaper Denons, and so forth. Are you after status or are you after music? As to software, apart from the over-priced re-issues, there's vinyl to be found in every Salvation Army, Neighbourhood Services, flea market, garage sale...there's a surplus (thank you "Perfect Sound Forever!). While it's true it is difficult to get good jazz cheaply, it is not impossible, and there absolutely tons of good used classical, if one doesn't religiously follow TAS lists of "finest recordings." The older Deutche Grammophons, Philips, Deccas, RCAs (even Red Seals often show up), Columbia, Turnabouts and more can all be surprisingly good. At 25 cents a pop, you can afford to take a risk. As to needing expensive cleaning machines, yeah, if you're anal-retentive, otherwise use your eyes to see if the album is clean and unmarked by scratches when purchasing, even at 25 cents. Experience will eventually tell you which marks are significant and which aren't. Radio Shack sells an excellent brush - the Discwasher - at $20 with walnut handle for dirtier records, as it has "wet-clean" capabilities. Otherwise a carbon-fibre brush is good for most albums. Relax already, no need to imtimidate our guests! Buy a cartridge - the Shure V15 for instance, that doesn't force you to adjust the VTA for each record, instead maybe once every two years. Sit back and enjoy the music. If you've got a VPI and an Audible Illusions already, you're well ahead of the game: $200 for Shure, $20 for Discwasher, 25 cents to $1 for records. Yeesh. Have fun!
I guess I would fall into the old geezers group too. After 40 years of playing and collecting vinyl I would be hard pressed to start over again. If I were starting out today I would look at SACD over vinyl. It has been my experience that good SACD has many of the strong points of vinyl without all the fuss. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of vinyl, the big lp covers, the whole vinyl experience but collecting and playing vinyl can become a job. Don't forget the storage issues, lps are big, heavy and take up a lot of space. That said ,if any of you fellows want to give up vinyl, let me know, I would be more than glad to take some of it off your hands.
It costs very little to get into vinyl in comparison to CDs. There was a used LP sale near where I live, this weekend and every LP was $1.00. How much do CDs cost? You don't need deep pocket or a lot of patience, just the maturity of an adult (which some AudiogoNers seem to lack).
Turntables are not extremely expensive or difficult to set up but they sound a lot better than CDs. I have $3500 in both my CDP and my TT and there is little comparison between the two. LPs simply sound better, but it is not nessesary to spend anywhere near that money to get LPs to excede CDs.
For less than $500 you should be able to get a competitive TT setup. Used LPs are easy to find and fairly cheap, unless you buy them on AudiogoN, then you will get gouged.
OK, I'm 22, the "digital generation." I grew up with CD, and later MP3. "Perfect Sound Forever!" Three years ago I had nothing but maybe an LP and a couple 45RPMs, and LOTS of CDs. When I heard what vinyl could do, it was a no-brainer. Best part is, the availability of new vinyl is getting better and better. Take a look at my system and see where my priorities fall, vinyl vs. CD ;)
Vinyl is certainly not as convenient as CD and requires some care and attention (though don't even get me started on fussing around the computer for mp3's consistently inconsistent mediocrity)...but if you're looking for the best SOUND...it's vinyl. And no, it's doesn't *have* to take tons of money, either ;)
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