Would Totem Arro's be a significant upgrade from Kef Q150's

@hagarthehorrible 

Hi Helge, I don’t know why I can’t reply directly to your private message, because I am getting an Audiogon “error” alert.

Anyway, your question was:

I currently have Totem Arro speakers and am contemplating the Model 1 Signature bookshelf speakers. Am curious If you are still using them or moved on to something else?

In my opinion, if you have a capable amp (or think about getting one) you should go for the Signatures. In comparison with the Arro, my Model 1 is a more evolved and sophisticated speaker, capable of better imaging and soundstage, and more depth and bass delivery. The Signature should be at least the same.

Oh, and is crucial to have heavy 24in height stands. I have the mighty Target R4.

I hope this helps :)

Cheers

I’ve had the TOTEM ARROs in a prior system, so I know their strengths and warts very well. . I also know the KEFQ150’s well .They are very different in both build quality and performance (and price).

@audiojedi nailed it ,,,,The ARROs are a defo step up from the Q150’s, BUT you will need a significant upgrade to your current integrated amp to permit them to perform.,

All TOTEMs are power hogs craving “grunt” (… that’s more current (amps) , not WPC which are meaningless by themselves with a current rating …)

Think SIMAUDIO as a first preference option.

If the amp upgrade as a requisite matched upgrade to upgrading to the ARROs is not budget manageable, then think about the amp upgrade first, and just keep your budget KEF bookshelf speakers . They can and will perform better..

The philosophy is clear. An affordable speaker with decent upgraded amplification (and source) makes more sense than an expensive speaker with a cheap amp (and source.) .

As commented by others, and having owned multiple Totem speakers, the amplifier used to drive the mains is key to get the most out of them. Your room shape is interesting, and with the Yamaha A-S501 you could try it, see how it goes and with your room shape. Streaming Spotify Premium also leaves some missing top-end and air [imo] which may bring a little more bottom end as a result.

If you try this, let’s say If you are not getting the low-end weight you want from the sound [and you don’t go for a higher current amp than what you have now] - another option might be to add a Totem Kin Sub later on as an alternative approach to bring in the bottom end re-enforcement. Fwiw, I tried 50w, 100w, 150w, 200wpc amps with my former Totem Model One Signature speakers, and once a higher current and higher quality dual mono SS amp was in place did I get the real bottom end out of my Totems. Not as good with my weighty 100wpc tube amp at the time, needed the 200wpc 75amp SS amp to make the Totem’s sing their best. This is why I mentioned the Totem Kin Sub as a sideways option too. Best of Luck.

If you can afford to beef up the amp I would do it!  Totem is one of the best ...

Check out Odyssey, Klaus builds tanks for amps and sound sweet.  More than enough moxy to make the Totems bloom.  20 year transferrable warranty.  Not a shill but a believer; I own his Kismet amp!!

https://odysseyaudio.com/#

I was reading some Totem Arros reviews and listings myself, as I was starting to second guess my recent purchase of a couple of Revel M126be’s. As far as recommended power, I guess Totem was saying 20 to 80 wpc (which made me think that they must be not a hard load to drive), however they are also listed as a 4 ohm load with sensitivity listed as 87 dB. Which doesn’t sound as if it would be a real easy load. So I posted a thread here on A’gon inquiring about those numbers, and someone replied that the numbers did not suggest a real easy load, but that they did suggest woofers that could not handle a lot of power.

Which I do not completely understand.

What appealed to me about them is that the reviews I read all seemed to say that they were not incredibly finicky about room size or placement and that detail and sound stage were great. The ’but’ was that they were incapable of "slam" with no real bass. Neither of which are super high on my list, but I am still waffling.

@immatthewj I don't think you love the Revels. By this time you should be happy with them - if they had your name on it. Are you considering to switch them, find a better fit?

@grislybutter , to begin with I thought I liked them, but now I am kind of feeling they may have actually been a lateral move.  Not that I don't think they sound good, just that maybe what I really wanted ("tell me what you want, what you really really want") was different.  Horns maybe, or maybe the concentric driver thing.  Second guessing myself has always been a curse for me.  

@immatthewj I think you should keep trying until you fall in love with something. (And then, that love will only last for a year )

Thank you for the words of encouragement, @grislybutter , and unfortunately I probably will.  At least until I run out of disposable income and good credit.  However, sometimes I think that with my hearing and listening room limitations, I am chasing a lost cause.

But the Volti Razz sure sounds interesting, doesn't it?

@grislybutter , to begin with I thought I liked them, but now I am kind of feeling they may have actually been a lateral move. Not that I don’t think they sound good, just that maybe what I really wanted ("tell me what you want, what you really really want") was different. Horns maybe, or maybe the concentric driver thing. Second guessing myself has always been a curse for me.

Ah, the lackluster nature of the Revel (flair-less harman measurement phd’s safe CYA baby) has tormented good ol’ Matthew, it appears.

Try this, it’s like a hybrid of a horn and a concentric driver, a good attempt by a fairly eccentric guy at nullifying the cons of both...hard to beat for the price.

https://tektondesign.com/product/full-range-speakers/full-towers/epic-15/#color

(same price as the li’l Revel Lackluster-Be too, how does that add up? eh?? break it in for a few days. Send it back in 60 days if it didn’t stop the second guessing.)

same price as the li’l Revel Lackluster-Be too,

Actually, @deep_333 , if I am reading the product description correctly, at $2200 a pair (?) they would be half the price of the M126be’s.

On edit:  oops, I guess not, apparently that wasn't the pair price after all.

@immatthewj I know nothing about the Voltis. As you know, I treat my OCD with silly projects like this https://speakerchoices.com/ maybe it can help you. 

I think any 2-way small-ish speakers will have limitations. I have been successful with subs and lucked out with speakers and I know it's very personal, so the more I know the more I would keep my mouth shut. But if I couldn't I would suggest that you are a British speaker person.

@grislybutter , I seem to be in a place in life where my short periods of happiness are followed by longer periods of apathy or even discontent that my initial impulse is to attempt to spend my way out of. Possibly it will pass.  BTW, thanks for the link--I have visited it before.  

Actually, @deep_333 , if I am reading the product description correctly, at $2200 a pair (?) they would be half the price of the M126be’s.

On edit: oops, I guess not, apparently that wasn't the pair price after all.

What??? That lil Revel Lackluster-Be was 4400 per pair?????? (facepalm)Thought it was 2200/pair. Harman PhD appears to have robbed you @immatthewj  He is still paying back his student loans w/interest maybe.

That tekton epic 15 is $2200/pair, shipping included and will beat the living daylights out of Lackluster-Be. 

Good luck.

@immatthewj my period of apathy is at least until 2028. There is no way I could spend my way out of it 

What??? That lil Revel Lackluster-Be was 4400 per pair??????

@deep_333    when I bought them MD and Uncle Kevin were marking them down to 3k.  They have both priced them back up to $4400.

That tekton epic 15 is $2200/pair,

Oh, okay.  When I clicked on 'two' I was clicking two pair.

I think any 2-way small-ish speakers will have limitations. I have been successful with subs and lucked out with speakers and I know it’s very personal, so the more I know the more I would keep my mouth shut. But if I couldn’t I would suggest that you are a British speaker person.

@grislybutter , I wanted to give some thought prior to typing a reply.

It is not that I do not LIKE the Revels, and it is not that I don’t think that they are BETTER sounding than the nearly 30 year old B&W 805s that they replaced. (Sorry, I guess that sentence was kind of a double negative which might be confusing if read quickly.)

I guess what it is, is that now they don’t sound that MUCH better to me than the B&Ws and I was hoping I would like them a lot more.

I felt that the ancient B&Ws were the weak link in my system and I was hoping that technology that was almost 30 years newer and hadn’t been run real hard and put away wet for many years over would simply blow them away, and that is not the way I now feel about them.

What they do that I like is that vocals sound more palpable between the speakers than with the B&Ws. Sometimes the B&Ws were sounding worn out and tired to me and the Revels do not sound that way. With the lights off the Revels do present the illusion of sound that is bigger than the room (the speakers and the walls "disappear") and they do not sound strained doing it. But the B&Ws did that. I guess I don’t know what a "slow" speaker sounds like, or at least if I do, it’s been many years since I’ve had a pair in my system, but with fast source material the Revels "sound fast" (to me) and they don’t sound strained doing it; but the B&Ws also "sound fast" to me with source material that goes fast, and they (the B&Ws) also did not sound strained.

I have to take into consideration hearing loss and my ever changing moods and the deficiencies in the listening environment my system is now living in, but really, in hind sight, I think what maybe I was looking for was something DIFFERENT than the B&Ws, and the Revels are probably really not different as far as principle of function. (And by that I mean as opposed to concentric drivers or horns or AMT tweeters or what have you.)

And I cannot honestly say I have been doing a whole lot of serious listening lately, and I guess I really need to start doing more of that versus lusting over a different speaker I don’t (yet) have. I do not claim to be a poster child for good mental health, and I am sure that this has an effect on why things sound one way to me one day and another way on another day.

That tekton epic 15 is $2200/pair, shipping included and will beat the living daylights out of Lackluster-Be.

I guess it is safe to assume that you have done a direct comparison between the M126be and the Epic 15, @deep_333 ? I guess I’d probably pop $100 for the grilles, $75 for biwireable, and I wonder what the $210 upgrade package is? I would probably have to look into that. I would not spend 1k for the high gloss option. I suppose that is part of the price of the Revels, because I do think that they are gorgeous, but I was and am more interested in spending $ on sonic technology.

@decooney , did you ever drive the Totems with your V12?

@immatthewj decooney,, did you ever drive the Totems with your V12?

Yes. Apologize for the long answer. It was a pivotal point for me about "speakers" at the time, fwiw. Yes, Cary V12R tube amp. Cary SLI-80 tube amp. And, Cary SA-200.2 solid state amp, all around the same time. Also had a few loaner tube amps at the same time just to make sure I was making well rounded comparisons. Also had a few other manufacturer demo speakers I was asked to evaluate at the time, along with additional pairs I was testing with audio and home theater at the same time too. All the sudden I was rotating in every amp and speaker I could get my hands on to compare to. Some of this was a bit discouraging because I really wanted to keep my mighty Totems.

The 4-ohm 87db Totems did their best with the more powerful SS amp at the time. Sure, they’d play on the tube amps, but a more subdued result, when compared to the big 87lb SS amp was 350wpc at 4ohms. This was a good comparison lesson.

I later compared all amps again with my custom designed and built 92.5db 4ohm speakers which did very well, and notably better at low volume level listening.

Disclaimer: I do a lot of low volume level listening comparison testing too. This might be a bit "unfair" to some folks who just say "turn up the volume a little more". Dont ask why, but I seem to prefer lower 90-93db more responsive speakers at lower volume levels. Just something I prefer. And, I did NOT get a chance to try any of the later model 8-ohm or minimalist crossover-less speakers that Totem started making that were "supposed" to be more tube amp friendly. I had moved on by then, fwiw. This reconfirmed for me what good or better speaker matching was about, and for me always seems to be a chore.

Yes, i have heard both the floorstander and your bookshelf in that Revel Be series.

Get the ’upgrade package’ with the mundorf/clarity caps, binding post, etc as it is a sonic improvement. If you bought such things separately as a diy-er, it would cost you as much @immatthewj . You’d be hard pressed to find a company that operates on as much a razor thin margin as this one in this world of audiophilia.

Ignore the grill (a sonic detriment, especially with this mid array) unless you have a dog or kid waiting to destroy the speaker any minute. Ignore the high gloss and biwire. If one of the default paints don’t work, they give you a custom color option for an extra 50, i.e. as long as you nail the correct color for your room’s decor, you should be good.

I guess it is safe to assume that you have done a direct comparison between the M126be and the Epic 15, @deep_333 ? I guess I’d probably pop $100 for the grilles, $75 for biwireable, and I wonder what the $210 upgrade package is? I would probably have to look into that. I would not spend 1k for the high gloss option. I suppose that is part of the price of the Revels, because I do think that they are gorgeous, but I was and am more interested in spending $ on sonic technology.

@immatthewj I think you have become too analytical*. (Anal as some would say.)

Focus on the music, forget the sound, for a little bit. It seems to me the Revels are great speakers, from your description.

*I am doing it with amps now

Hey @immatthewj wait a second. I just kinda realized something looking back at other threads. So you have the standard Cary V12 or V12I amp then now?

Before you try and test any more speakers, there could be a whole separate thread on what caps and tubes you have in your preamp and your amp now. Gotta tell ya, I drove myself crazy with my former V12R until I made upgrades, and this changed everything downstream for the speakers. Speakers reacted differently. Like, I’m saying, maybe a whole separate thread and i’ll pose two questions. Maybe take it over to a V12 thread or something as I can’t reply to msgs due to Agon fees, CC.

You can send me a msg, with these answers, and I’ll have to send a separate message later to reply back - separately.

Amp: Is the V12 all stock, and does it have the old original gray looking AudioOne coupling caps in it now? [if so, its time for a change, no doubt]. What front end EL84s do you have it it now, what brand/model/era. Same goes for 6922s etc.

Preamp: Do you run the SLP-05 preamplifier now [or am I confused]. Exactly what tubes/model/era are you running in the preamp now? [if running the new Tung Sol tubes, they are smoothed over, kinda veiled over, not good in my Cary SLP98]. I run other TJ Full Music there and just received new PSVane Art Series II 6SN7s direct from the factory and testing those soon. Opening box in just a bit, fyi.

If I’m remotely close to these other assumptions, its definitely worth a serious look here first before more speaker buys imo, and fwiw. Before I upgraded my V12R, it was a bit more flat and dull sounding. After the upgrades, it was truly amazing. The new owner was astonished at the sound, he also compared it at his friends house against a very high $ Aesthetix amplifier and both said my upgraded Cary V12r surpassed the sound of the Aesthetix. They drove it hard I guess, even with massive electrostats until it ran hot for weeks I guess, and had a transformer meltdown or something  The only thing upgraded in that V12R was the coupling caps and the smaller input/driver tubes up front to very nice matched vintage tubes. If you want more open and large sound with a V12, this will do it. Send me a msg with the answers fwiw.  

@decooney , not all that long ago I was able to send someone a message by hovering the cursor over their icon and clicking on the send message when it appeared in the drp down box.  For some reason, that function no longer works for me.  I know from reading I have done on this site that there was a pretty good thread with a discussion you had going with @oldhvymec , but I wonder if anyone would mind if I just started a new V12 thread in 'amps/preamps'?  I'll give it a try, and if it is a line crosser, the mods can just delete it.

If you don’t love how your speakers sound, I say move on.  Try something else you can buy, try and return for little or no money.  I have the Revel M126Be and I love them.  the best bookshelves I’ve heard in my listening room.  I tried the KEF R3 Meta, B&W 705 S2 and S3 and others and I preferred the Revels.  I believe there is no perfect speaker only what’s perfect for you based on what you like, your room and your budget etc.  FOMO is a different story.  It’s a definite challenge with this hobby.