Wilson's Chronosonic XVX loudspeaker over 3/4 of a million US dollars
As for the Focal tweeter, I've experimented with it a little. Not Wilsons, but in Focals. I think Wilson did two things which worked really well. Surrounded it by felt, and put a custom rear chamber on it, which I believe extended the low end down, making it play a larger part in the speaker response. Best, E |
My question was meant to be aimed at why it took so very long for Dave W to come to the realization that the old tweeter was such a weak part of his design. IOW, what precipitated the change ( for the better) after all those years? Well,l I can't speak for any successful speaker maker, at all, but my guess is that his personal tastes changed, much like mine have. Wilson Sr. always chose tweeters based on sound alone. He liked bass, he liked extreme imaging. He liked the color in the Focal metal domes. It is hard to sell a high end speaker that sounds like every other. That means, truly neutral speakers are a hard sell. Perhaps the Wilson brand feels it's so powerful that it is OK to be a neutral speaker? Best, E |
why it took so very long for Dave W to come to the realization that the old tweeter was such a weak part of his design. LOL, the "realization" came when Focal stop selling OEM drivers to competitors. Many of the older Wilson drivers were made by Focal and were/are superior to the stuff he is using today. The "new" sound may be less offensive. Some may call it "neutral," but it basically just lacking resolution due to the excessive use of paper cones (and a silk dome tweeter). Proac already mastered that particular sound in the late ’80s. Wilson fans will continue to like them regardless of how they sound. |
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One thing that does strike me as a little strange when it comes to Wilsons...is why it took so very long for Dave W to hear how bad the long utilized Focal Titanium dome was in all of his older designs. I'm going to say something that's going to drive the Wilson fanboys absolutely nuts, but I don't mean to. Wilson has gone from having a signature sound to true neutral over time. And I can go over some of the changes I've noted, but Wilson fans out there will think I'm just being mean and sour grapes, and what have you, but I'm not. The truth is the Wilson sound has shifted, for the better, to a true neutral speaker. It's not the same sound. Best, E |
03-03-2020 5:27pmin my experience the more that you spend on uber high end gear the more likely that you’ll be disappointed.it's not how much you spend, it's the things you learn and and the effort you put in. Great point Mike. I did a complete Rives Audio build out 9 years ago and it has indeed been the best investment in my hobby by far. But like you, it took a couple of years to figure it out. |
@prof2 No apologies required. As a former dealer, I laugh uncontrollably at such silliness. I have heard them ALL, and believe me, you will go a LONG WAY to hear better speakers than those made by Magnepan, the best models of which are way expensive enough. And, for the thousandth time, your ROOM is more important than any component as everyone knows. Hey, buy whatever you like, but even if they were plated in platinum they are just wood and metal and glue with some paper somewhere, I would guess. Who cares other than their marketing team? Cheers, Richard |
One thing that does strike me as a little strange when it comes to Wilsons...is why it took so very long for Dave W to hear how bad the long utilized Focal Titanium dome was in all of his older designs. Once he changed to the current silk dome, I think his line up really came into step with other speakers that are at the top of the heap in speaker ability. Prior to that, there were numerous other manufacturers who were bringing to market speakers that could- and did, outperform his offerings; all at lower price points. |
So much emotion. I want the best performance for the money. Money is an object for me. I'm in the bottom 99.9999999%. I, like virtually everyone else, don't have 850k for speakers. 850k speakers are too expensive to compete, and I think that's the point. Who really knows these? It's not like dealers are gonna stock them. Maybe they're at a show somewhere but can you really tell which is better between a 100k speaker and an 850k one at a show? I don't think so. I bet they're state of the art in the margin category, though. The price tag is the primary attraction. The product needs to be visually impressive. These could be oppo in a lexicon box equivalents. Wilson could just build the box around a pair of revel salons and none of their customers would know the difference. |
daveyf1,547 posts03-01-2020 10:37pm@steakster What you stated applies to most of the audio forums these days. On another forum, frequented by horn speaker lovers, anyone who disagrees with their mantra and dares to have another opinion on horn speakers is summarily banned... on this very same forum, there is now a sitting guru, has the forum owners eating out of his hand...and is therefore allowed to get away with any post he happens to think of, regardless of how outrageous it might be...( @ Mike L...I think you were more than gracious to this guru... GURU I see the word, but I would like to know, WHO IS THIS GURU? If he doesn't have a name he must not exist. TRUE. If the person offend you, or your friends. Remember jealousy ALWAYS brings unkind words. There are NO exceptions. Hiding behind a screen and keyboard, with a belly full of BOOZE, are usually the culprits. Assho?es, abound, ay.. Water off a ducks back, F&%$um'. I see a few with "THEIR OPINIONS". I say this with true conviction. GURU take the cotton out of your ears and stuff it in you mouth. Whoever you are.. Now ban ME!! Please Yup, yup I'm "THAT GUY" ban me... |
Seems like the same people who hack and blubber, and say how Mcintosh is la te da, are the same bunch (maybe not the same people) that can't afford, a really REALLY great product. Is there better? Yes Do I have any better? NO, Have I had better? NO. WHY? Sometimes you have to tinker to get "YOUR SOUND". I just chose Mcintosh as a starting point, and MODIFIED from there. 50 + years now, with Mac, and 20 plus pieces on hand. I wouldn't sell a one, unless the ol Doctor gives me the, "time is short" speech. VTL a long time too. GREAT products, spendy though.. I love the "wait till you hear this" stuff. Few products off the shelf really turn my head, FEW..Normally in a great room set up. The WHOLE package is the true "wait till you hear this"..Everything else is "you need to come to MY house FIRST" before you spend 15,000.00 on an amp or preamp. OR 25,000.00 on a pair of speakers, or 20,000.00 on cabling (MY GOSH) other than RCAs and XLR, (made a lot of those too) I like DIY, cabling, simple. Speakers, DIY or modify. I just happen to have the tools, and know enough people in the trades to get IT done. After a lifetime of chasing "THE SOUND". I'm a very fortunate person indeed. Gettin' there... Wilson.... maybe someday, beautiful product.. |
Wilson markets a number of different speakers at different price points..albeit nothing in the hundreds of dollars ( like some of you would like, lol!) Magnepan has their little LRS speaker at a price point that is at that price...and its a real winner. BUT don't expect it to compete with Wilsons at that price point. ( the large Magnepan 30.2 is their flagship ( at a MUCH lower price than the Wilson in question)...and IME it does compete well with some of the larger Wilsons'--- assuming one has the space and the amp power!) |
I think that WILSON AUDIO has "lost their marbles". For 3/4 of a million I could hire the CSO to play some private concerts, and come away more satisfied. My impression; - - - these speakers are "rich boy’s toys". I doubt if you would find more that a handful of people in this category, world wide, that are true music connoisseurs let alone intelligent audio connoisseurs. Sure, if I were a multi million rich guy, I might buy them just to impress my dumb ass friends. I hope I never get that dumb. ... and there it is again. If someone is wealthy enough to be able to afford a pair of these, and the rest of the system to go along with them, they would also be able to afford to ’hire the CSO to play private concerts’. No one spending this kind of money on a system, needs to scrimp and save in order to do so. They are almost assuredly wealthy enough, that spending a couple of million on an audio system does not affect the rest of their lifestyle one bit. |
I think that WILSON AUDIO has "lost their marbles". For 3/4 of a million I could hire the CSO to play some private concerts, and come away more satisfied. My impression; - - - these speakers are "rich boy's toys". I doubt if you would find more that a handful of people in this category, world wide, that are true music connoisseurs let alone intelligent audio connoisseurs. Sure, if I were a multi million rich guy, I might buy them just to impress my dumb ass friends. I hope I never get that dumb.
I hope I get that dumb, and wealthy enough to PROVE how dumb I am.. LOL Regards |
jon_5912334 posts03-02-2020 7:55pmthis is fun. You certainly know when you've touched a nerve. I'm posting because I'm curious, obviously. I don't have any special secret knowledge and I don't claim to. Do I seem like I'm trying to be attractive? At what point am I allowed to say I don't buy it? 850k, 850 trillion, when am I allowed to be skeptical? FUN? mmmm, so you like to make statements, that are NOT TRUE, or off the top of you head an it's fun to see the response? Am I understanding you right? Attractive? NO I love having a good time, enjoying the "TEC TALK". As you can read there are a lot of folks here that love great sound via Music, HT, ect. If I haven't heard a type of speaker, I WANT TO HEAR IT, before making a statement. "I never heard a Wilson I liked" I heard that a few times, while the person is setting on a speaker, I KNOW, I don't care for. Don't buy what? You mean you won't buy the speaker? Or that there is 850,000.00 worth speaker there? There are a few speakers out there that cost a bit more. Like Wilsons "WHAT DO YOU WANT" Model. Is that the name? NO. Will they do it for you? NO would they do it for me? YES WHY? would Wilson build it for me, and not for you? WHY? They like me, they don't like you.. LOL Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it.. Skeptical is GOOD, without fact, and "I don't have any special secret knowledge and I don't claim to". MMMM again. What is your 2 cents worth? not TWO CENTS for sure. Dave Wilson HAD a passion for GREAT sounding speakers, and a wonderful support group. Support is top of the line still. Do I own Wilsons?, NO! Would I own Wilsons? YES? I have heard a LOT of speakers, through the years, the best I've ever heard were ALWAYS had built. I've been lucky enough to see and hear a few through the years. No Names on the speakers. Just a lot of time and effort. One pair had Dave Wilson all over it. Just looked Wilsonee. Sure enough it was a collaboration of Wilson, Bongiorno, and a renowned cabinet maker in the midwest. ONE pair ever made.. 22 years ago, my gear, it pulled it's little blanket over it's little head at the time. This guy's STUFF was (WAS) better. I admit it. NOT NOW though. James Bongiorno the amp designer. WAS CRAZY. simple. But could he make an amp. His "private stock" of amplifiers was nothing like the commercial Ampzilla 2000s, that were spendy, already. Great SS gear Jealousy ALWAYS bring unkind word ALWAYS.. Read half the post, PURE Jealousy. Mine is the best. Hear it all the time. "You've never heard anything like mine'. Crack me up.. YES I HAVE and BETTER. maybe not a lot better, BUT BETTER..Especially when I take the cotton out of my ears. REALLY. some systems I've heard I put cotton in my ears. Everyone around saying how brilliant it is, wonderful the sound. LOL. Dump the Junk and build your own. That was a buddies words, not mine.. Regards, from an OLD HEAVY MEC. |
I think that WILSON AUDIO has "lost their marbles". For 3/4 of a million I could hire the CSO to play some private concerts, and come away more satisfied. My impression; - - - these speakers are "rich boy's toys". I doubt if you would find more that a handful of people in this category, world wide, that are true music connoisseurs let alone intelligent audio connoisseurs. Sure, if I were a multi million rich guy, I might buy them just to impress my dumb ass friends. I hope I never get that dumb. |
what i meant is that in my experience expecting a monumental jump in sound quality from a well chosen 25k amp to a 50k amp that ‘may’ sound incrementally better can be disappointing in that the improvement is not more meaningful. this would apply to most component categories. A jump from 25k speakers to well chosen 50k speakers can buy a huge difference in improved sound quality. an amp example. one can buy a luxman m900u amp for $15 list. watt for watt up to its limit I seriously doubt that a 50k boulder, dag or whatever will make the impact of a speaker upgrade. they just can’t . by no means am i saying don’t spend x on a dac, preamp and amp, just don’t expect it to fundamentally change your system as would a better speaker once you are already set with very good gear in front of the speaker. imo |
in my experience the more that you spend on uber high end gear the more likely that you’ll be disappointed.it's not how much you spend, it's the things you learn and and the effort you put in. i built a perfect room in 2004 and had lots of pretty gear in that room for 10 years. but until i learned and got my nose bloodied i was not able to figure out the room and my own reference. then it took another 2 years to get the room right. all 'uber' gear gets you is higher potential, and all a nice large room get's you is more things to figure out. but if you can put it all together....musical magic can happen. |
Got to hear the Wilson Alexandria (or was it is Alexx?) at Music Lovers the other day. The sound, for lack of a better term, was "effortless", and frequencies were well integrated. It’s was hard to describe, it’s like the speaker wasn’t even there. Yes, it sounded "live" just like the cliche goes. In the end, it didn’t really seem like a $100K+ speaker though. |
Brooks Berdan was a dealer of both Wilson and Vandersteen. The Vandersteen Models 1, 2, and 3 were his (and many other hi-fi dealer’s) bread and butter speakers (Brooks was one of Richard’s "biggest" dealers). Wilson’s were bought by a different kind of customer. The price differential between the two brands prevented them from creating completion for each other. That changed when Vandersteen starting making upmarket models (beginning with the Model 5 iirc). For whatever reason, Brooks wanted to sell only the models 1, 2, and 3, but not the 5, which would have posed competition for the Wilsons. Richard said no, to remain a Vandersteen dealer Brooks would have to demo and (hopefully, presumably) sell the Model 5 as well. Brooks elected to drop Vandersteen (or was it the other way around? ;-), a decision I considered a huge mistake (though I kept that opinion to myself ;-) . But from sitting in on a CES meeting between Brooks and Wilson’s then head of sales, I got a glimpse into how the hi-fi business works. The sales manager had all the stats for the past year (it was the January CES in Vegas), showing Brooks’ Wilson sales in comparison with other past years, as well as with all the other Wilson dealers. Brooks was given a sales target for the upcoming year, which he was expected to meet. I concluded that Brooks felt to reach the mandated sales goal he would need to sell only Wilson’s in their price range. To split his sales between Wilson and Vandersteen would have made him a less "valued" dealer to both companies, perhaps even endangering his qualifications to be a Wilson dealer at all. Apparently Brooks valued being a Wilson dealer more than he did a Vandersteen dealer. Perhaps he totaled his income from the sales of both company’s loudspeakers, saw that he made more from the sales of Wilsons, and made the pragmatic choice. I don’t know. Is that what’s considered politics in business? ;-) |
@mikelavigne i do have a great deal of respect for you and your contribution, especially this particular forum. I would love to hear your system and likewise offer same. i think in part answer to how Wilson might improve the product involves addressing two very related design principles- something they ( and many many others ) don’t think matter of that they have beat “ another way” time and phase. The impulse response does not lie. Pistonic motion - the midrange they use spends a LOT of time out of phase to the input signal. best jim |
@mikelavigne Let's put it this way, at the forum in question, i had had enough of the non- level playing field that grew there over time. It was clear that the owners had an agenda...and that anyone who was not towing the line with their expectations, was to be silenced. While that may sit well with you, it sure does not with me. The last time I saw the 'guru' attack you with a blatant 'ad hominem' and get absolutely no push back from anyone ( you included) was pretty pathetic, IMO. You say you pick your battles carefully..to which I say...why bother doing that over there?? Another former member and local friend of mine on that forum gave me some good advice, just after he left that rats nest....he stated.."that place is not worthy of my time...why is it worthy of yours?" I believe he has a great point. Luckily over here there is ongoing moderation with no hidden agendas ( so far, lol). |
Does Wilson employ the best designer? Do they have the best tools or best facility for developing a state of the art product? It seems really unlikely to me. then you say.... I don't have any special secret knowledge and I don't claim toso you know nothing, yet conclude it's unlikely they can develop a state of the art product. and base that on.......absolutely.......nothing. just trolling an expensive product you neither know about nor understand just because of the price. sad. |
this is fun. You certainly know when you've touched a nerve. I'm posting because I'm curious, obviously. I don't have any special secret knowledge and I don't claim to. Do I seem like I'm trying to be attractive? At what point am I allowed to say I don't buy it? 850k, 850 trillion, when am I allowed to be skeptical? |
@daveyf when i’m tempted to post negatively, i mostly don’t hit ’send’. or delete it quickly if/when i do. and really, it works like a charm. i pick my battles very carefully, and it’s extremely rare they involve my hobby. if i’m rattled i go listen to music. it's what i find i need from the hobby, an escape from all that strife. the forums typically help with that by allowing for rich interaction and even great friendships. but i avoid the dark parts. |
ok @jon_5912 you've told us what Wilson Audio is not, but not made any case how or why you know that. if Wilson is not the most qualified to produce the top speaker, i assume you must know who is? enlighten us please. who might have more capable assets in place to surpass them? do you actually know about state of the art speakers? |
@mikelavigne Thanks, I have no problem with you either, but you can also push buttons. Neither of us pushes buttons or has ability to push the envelope like the ‘guru’...and I know both of us wouldn’t get away with what he does on that site. Like I stated before, the guru has absolute impunity...we both know why. BTW, I have never...never..pushed anyone’s buttons, or the ‘envelope’ unless I have been pushed first...not once. OTOH, your tolerance level for the type of behavior at that site is far more than mine.( the mods having a few ‘blind spots’ does not work for me!)..is that a good thing? |
The state or the art would be the best designer with the best tools in the best facility using the best parts. The final product would be manufactured to the tightest tolerances and have the best quality control. Does Wilson employ the best designer? Do they have the best tools or best facility for developing a state of the art product? It seems really unlikely to me. It seems far more likely that the appeal of Wilson is that of luxury products in general. It's probably mostly about having something that others can't. It's the pride of being better via personal possessions. It doesn't make me angry, I'm just not interested. |
@daveyf i have no problem with you, but you can certainly be a ’button pusher’ from time to time and push the envelope. and thus pay the price. @4425 that forum Davey refers to is What’s Best Forum. and while i disagree on Davey’s moderator site ranking, i can agree that the WBF mods do have a few blind spots. but honestly it’s the forum members who determine a forum culture. and if those members care about the forum and accept responsibility for what happens and self police, then the moderators are not relevant. THAT is what does happen on WBF, that certainly rarely happens here. and maybe Audiogon is too big and unwieldy at this point for the sort of sense of community that exists on WBF. audiogon is all things to all people, which is unique among hifi forums i've seen. it covers a wider spectrum of enthusiasts. so it's just different. |
I find the situation odd and this may be my own preference but IMHO (sorry to disappoint you steakster) it is unlikely that any Wilson loudspeaker can come close to matching the tall Sound Labs speakers for detail, transient response and phasing. I have never heard a dynamic speaker come close. Why anyone would spend that kind of money on a loudspeaker when you can have the state of the art for $50K is beyond me. Ego maybe? Perhaps not knowing that such loudspeakers exist? Maybe they just got sold on them. Whatever. I have heard big Wilson's (not the 3/4 million ones) and big Magico's (but not YG's) and none of them match big ESLs. I do not own a pair of Sound Labs yet but that day is surely coming. |
@mikelavigne I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The forum in question has some of the worst moderation of any I have ever been on. To that, there seems to be a person ( we both know who he is) that throws as much mud as he wishes...with absolute impunity. I think you were the brunt of his recent ad hominem...whether you believe it or not. IMHO, this forum is moderated infinitely superior to that one. Over there, so many blowhards that believe their own ’BS’ it’s staggering. No moderation on ad hominem’s and failure to halt agendas...like the site owners' ongoing push to sell gear he reps. I am VERY pleased that I have absolutely nothing to do with those folks on that forum..here is a much healthier place...even i think for you! |
Mike: The Audiogon discussion forums have changed. The days of IMO or IMHO are gone. Several members seem to think that their opinions are fact - in a very bloviating way. Their chronic posts are as fatiguing a noisy tweeter. Not just the Audiogon forums, pretty much all forums. I haven't heard these, but I have heard the Alexandria XLF in a correctly sized and corrected room, and I was very impressed. And previously, I would not have considered myself a Wilson fan. I would have to assume the Chronosonic are better. THere have been few speakers I've heard that are able to get the scale close to realistic size. An orchestra seemed very much like the scale of an orchestra from about 15 rows back, and a singer with a guitar was also accurately scaled. |
Erik, yes, you are. There are aimed very specifically to location, both of the speaker and the listening position height etc. Quite shocking in fact, how a small change in these positions can make a dramatic difference. The problem is our ears are not omni directional microphones. No matter how well adjusted the speaker is, If we listen with our chins down (i.e. normal reading position) we will hear a tweeter differently as it is raised up due to comb filtering that occurs at our head/ear. This is how we hear height. That is, take an ideal, point source driver. Listen to it at 30 inches above the floor, then at 60 without moving your head. It will not sound the same. So, I'm very curious how much of an effect these speakers will have. |
^^^^ This is a strangely common remark made by people who scoff at very high priced audio equipment. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve seen it. Some say "you could hire The Stones to play for you personally with that type of money," etc. Even as a joke supposed to make a point; it just utterly misses the mark. One of pet peeves too. First of all, richopp was probably being a bit facetious when he said you could buy an orchestra, but, most full time orchestra members make over $100K. So, no... Most posts of this type, usually say, "with that money, you could travel the world going to any concert you want". But here's the thing. Anyone with the kind of money to be able afford this type of system, would also be able to travel the world going to as many concerts they want. The person that buys these Wilsons, and the rest of the type pf equipment that would go along with them, hardly had to scrimp and save to buy these. |
@mikelavigne I value your posts and interactions on the various threads. I know of others who do.@david_ten thank you for the kind words. i'm hanging in here, sharing and learning about hifi viewpoints. sorting through the chaff to find the value. ( @ Mike L...I think you were more than gracious to this guru( that word is being kind, I cannot post what I want to for fear of censorship here) when he called you sanctimonious ...and you backed down..:0 @daveyf i don't come to audio forums for negative interactions, this is fun only for me. so i avoid mud slinging. you can't throw it without getting it on you too. i deal with that stuff in my day job. other forums have people with agendas too and a dark side, and plenty of politics. but it's the exception, and not the rule. but that forum does self police effectively regarding some of the 'noise' type things that happen here. OTOH this is a purely commercial site and not run by hobbyists......for better or worse. i hope Audiogon can see frequent threads about expensive pieces of audio gear where the majority of the posts are focused on the product and it's merits and other alternative products. that would make me want to post more here. |
@steakster What you stated applies to most of the audio forums these days. On another forum, frequented by horn speaker lovers, anyone who disagrees with their mantra and dares to have another opinion on horn speakers is summarily banned... on this very same forum, there is now a sitting guru, has the forum owners eating out of his hand...and is therefore allowed to get away with any post he happens to think of, regardless of how outrageous it might be...( @ Mike L...I think you were more than gracious to this guru( that word is being kind, I cannot post what I want to for fear of censorship here) when he called you sanctimonious ...and you backed down..:0( )...I wouldn’t have done this...and certainly that’s why I am banned there, lol.. As to the subject of this thread, I think that speakers and their worth are at the eye and ear of the beholder...since these Wilson’s are apparently at or close to the best that they can design....and if they believe that there is a market for these at the price point that they advertise, then that is good enough for me. If these very same speakers were $10million dollars a pair...and the company could sell all that they could produce, would it be correct for us to query even that price? |
I don't care, I just like um, I don't care how they sound. I like um, simple! They are big, heavy, thick, and cost a whole lot. I just want um. I don't want pay for them. I just want to have them, you know add it to the REAL BIG PYLE. LOOK at my speaker collection pyle. Really "IF I COULD", I might, sure would be a nice place to start from. Just imagine, anything you want, someone else foots the bill, everything, room, the goodies to supply the room, inside and out. The perfect Ampa style room, in the Maestro perfect position EVERYTHING. You know I bet I could live with them no problem..Beryllium domes impregnated with diamond dust though, I just don't know, maybe they have options. NO doubt. I love a great soft dome (Morel) with a true ribbon or grate planar for UHF. Nothing come close to me.. A buddy has Watt Puppy II or III, 10 years now. They were SET/Krell powered. Only like 20/100 watters. I was impressed for sure. This guy was a real picky shi? too, real picky. Most of "THE SOUND" was the room and his analness to get it perfect. Close for sure. Everything was routed, nothing touched. Very impressive. AND it didn't boil my ears, great HF treatment in the room.. In any case I'd be fiddling with those thing till I WOUND at a mental institution. They are a complicated speaker design, no doubt.. Regards |
This past week my buddy was staying at my home while getting ready to ditch California for Florida. He brought along a $12K bottle of wine someone gave at his wedding. That is $12K at a restaurant in town that has 2 bottles. Well he and his wife wanted to share the bottle with me. All I could think of as we drank it was uber expensive audio systems. There is someone out there for everything. Cheers. I think there’s value in trying to figure out why products exist, who they’re for, etc. If something is priced high for reasons that legitimately contribute to performance it’s different than if it’s just because the manufacturer is trying to appeal to a particular market, running a scam, etc. |
oh man. the comments that offering a product that may or not be worthwhile is a scam is frightening. the beauty of capitalism is that an individual or company can build a widget and let the markets decide its worth. if the market rejects said widget then it/they fail. some audiophiles including myself fall for claims that intellectually we know are pure folly. too emotional to be rational you might say. IMHO |
