Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Thuchan, Yes I read your post of 8-20-13 about the Timeline. I guess I did not understand that the "R 80" is the EMT 927. And your speed management is the stock system as supplied with the 927. I did not understand that or the model designations fully. Sorry. That answers the speed question.

Dear Lewm: +++++ " many times that if THD had so much "meaning" in relation to lowering audible distortions in our audio system, then amplifier development might have ceased back in the 70s, with the advent of the Phase Linear 700 amplifier. THD was at least down to the 5th decimal place.... " ++++

I agree about and other that that amp design you name it was a very old one with several " faults " ( very old active parts and passive ones too. Deficientes ones. ) against today best SS amp designes there are good reasons why that " meaning " that you said tell almost nothing in reality exist and certainly has a predictable meaning in what we are hearing.

THD and other distortions as IMD or other generated elsewhere the system chain as: electrical impedance non-matched electronics in between or non-matched impedances between speaker and amplifier or between cartridge and tonearm or RIAA eq. deviations or TT unstable speed and several other kind in all cases all those kind of system generated distortions have a real meaning and always affect and degrade the audio signal.

That we can't detected it does not means did not affect the system quality performance level because it does.

Why can we detect easy some kind of generated ditortions as could be a on-matched cartridge/tonearm or TT speed unstabilty? because we all are trained to detect it. We recieve that training through our years of audio experiences, this kind of training was not " on porpose " one, we was not consciente of that training we just learned.

Now, if any one of us receive on-porpose training to detect almost any kind of system link generated distortion/coloration the we could be aware of many " things " that are happening and that we are listening that we can sware came in the LP grooves when in reality are added distortions generated in the system and that did not came in the LP grooves because were not in the recording proccess.

For the last 10-12 years I by my self received ( I'm still learning about. ) on porpose training to detect some kind of distortions that many of you can't do it and not because I'm better than you or because I have " golden ears " ( that I don't have for sure. ) but because I'm trained and I know exactly what to look for in any audio system when some of you do not know what to look for because you do not know how that " what look for " it sounds, you think is part of the LP grooves.

I posted all those in other threads, I have my own training proccess and my own " scientific " evaluation proccess. Each one of you can " invent " yours.

It's a fenomenal experience to be aware with almost 100% precision where are in any system its distortion problems and I don't said that from " out of my mouth " some of you already experienced some of those abilities that I acquired through many training years.

Of course that some of you already had a similar on porpose training to detect and be aware of different kind of distortions and can understand in full what I'm telling here and the ones that does not acquired yet those abilities is obvious that can't understand in deep part of my posts.

I give you one example: I can tell you in a " good " cartridge set up if overhang is on target against what other people could think is VTA/SRA unaccuracies. Both " distortions " are very similar but not excatly the same " sounds ". Btw, I learnede about by " accident " mading mistakes in my cartridges set up and I started to learn and " invented " a trainng/evaluation proccess to detec it easily where you can't do it with out know what to look for.

My, take is that because we can't detect distortions does not means does not exist, ceratinly exist and certainly always degrade the audio signal so lowering any kind of distortions at each system link always will improve our system MUSIC reproduction enjoyment.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Some nice pics of restoration of EMT 927 F by ing. Hans Van Vliet here :
https://www.facebook.com/jphansvanvliet
Have a nice day !
Jean

Peter,
did you read my post on the Timeline measurement?

Oops, the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiDDJ-I47rA

Perfect case of "I like it" and digital vs analog for Raul, my thoughts put eloquently.

Dkarmeli, I don't own a Timeline, but I do use the KAB strobe to check the speed of my SME 30/12. It is spot on. If it changes due to temperature or belt wear, I can adjust the speed. I have read, and I have been told, that the Timeline is far more accurate than the KAB. I don't know this to be a fact. Of course, the further the wall is away from the Timeline, the more precise the measurement can be.

I did test my old turntable with the KAB and it was fine. It was also fine with the Timeline if the dot reflected on a surface within about 10" of the spindle. But once I set it up so the red dot fell on the wall about 3' away, I could clearly see that the turntable was a bit fast. It had no speed adjustability, so I could not slow it down to precisely 33.333.

Regarding strobes in general, I have seen variations. My KAB disk is slightly warped so it appears as though the speed varies at each rotation at the warp, but the numbers don't drift otherwise, so I think I'm fine. It certainly sounds fine to my ears.

I did try a hand held tachometer once and it was highly inaccurate and I got different readings by 2-5% each time I tested. The KAB is better.

I'm just curious if anyone has tested the EMT 927 with a Timeline. I'm sure it passes the KAB strobe just fine.

On measurements. I have pointed out to Raul many times that if THD had so much "meaning" in relation to lowering audible distortions in our audio system, then amplifier development might have ceased back in the 70s, with the advent of the Phase Linear 700 amplifier. THD was at least down to the 5th decimal place. It sounded like crap compared to any modern amplifier and compared to any quality tube amplifier, ever. So, THD needs to be thrown out as a yardstick. Even manufacturers of solid state amplifiers, which can easily show superiority to tube amps by this meaningless parameter, downplay it these days. Yes, there is probably some high percentage of THD that would be audible, but it would be difficult to establish the cut-off. Harmonics are not all that disturbing to the brain.

Now, as to wow and flutter. I have no idea how much is too much.

Rauliruegas, I am all for measurements if they measure something of value. As I said in my post above, I am more concern with the stylus drag on the speed of the turntable than whether it is at an accurate 33 1/3 rpm. Often if the torque of the motor is too high it will withstand such drag but oscillate for a while afterwards, which isn't good for the music. I would love to see valid measures of this.

Lewm said; " The question is only whether all that machinery also results in "the best" sound. And that can be debated forever, as seen here."

Certainly one of the best, and I very much doubt that anyone who's owned/spent time with one or an experienced person with turntables and audio would be debating this way. The 927 is one the very few machines in the industry that has been accepted by many in the know as the Reference, of course until the audiophile thread here.

Tbg, Without a doubt, by external inspection the EMT 927 is built like a tank in all respects and to a quality level that far exceeds the visuals of a Garrard or Lenco. The question is only whether all that machinery also results in "the best" sound. And that can be debated forever, as seen here.

Mosin,
Understand. Hope I can make it this year to Denver again. Would be my third visit. In case I let you know. Looking forward to our exchange. Thanks for the offer sharing information this way.
Eckart

I forgot, I don'ttrying to put down that EMT TT. I'm only sharing a different perspective and that's all.

R.

Lewm, as I understand it, idler-wheel turntables is withstanding the slow ups of dynamic passages. So the EMT has that going for it. But the mass of the platter also helps greatly thanks to inertia. Also the friction of the idler-wheel is important as is its diameter constancy and the trueness of the surface on which the idler-wheel drives.

I once had a Final Audio tt which was solid copper! The platter weighed 285 pounds which is good, of course, but it was string driven with a knot on the string.

I think all of this means that what we hear is what is chiefly important.

It is possible to distinguish "constancy" (rotation at a constant angular velocity) from "accuracy" (rotation at precisely 33.33 rpm) with a Timeline, altho I am no devotee of the Timeline. But it would be a pain in the ass to do so. One simply needs to make markings at regular intervals on the wall being used to observe the laser beam. If the "dot" moves at precisely regular distances in one direction or the other, with each rotation of the platter, then the speed of the table is constant but not accurate (see above for definitions). IMO, constancy is much more important than precise accuracy, as long as one does not perceive pitch distortion. Tbg, Ideally this would be done with stylus down, playing an LP, to account for stylus drag.

I am just not anal enough to do it, I guess.

Dear Dkarmeli: ++++ " some arbitrary measurements " +++++

well, that's your point of view but even today those kind of measurements are the industry standard and have a specific meaning.

Dkarmely, IMHO a " holly grail " product any must shine in every way/stage. In the other side: how any non-accurate audio item could be a " holly grail "? makes sense to you?.
Any " holly grail " product firat than all must measures as no other similar product and from here all the other stages in the product design that conform the final quality performance that could gives it with justice that name.

From a subjective stage I can tell you that each one of us have several " holly grails " products at each system link.

Dkarmely again: the overall subject goes deeper and beyond the sole subjective limits.

Seems to me that some of us go in " panic " when any one mention: accuracy, distortions, neutrality, measurements or digital when all these is part of each single stage in the day by day world life!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I suspect you are talking about speed accuracy relative to the desired rpms, but what about the drag of the stylus in the vinyl groove?

Mosin, That is a good point about accurate speed versus constant speed. And by doing this check on a stellar vintage turntable, you seem to support Raul's point that analysis should be both objective and subjective. But how do you know from using the Timeline that it is accurate speed or constant speed? Say the turntable speeds up to 33.45 and then slows down to 33.44 at precisely the same point during each revolution. If this is not detected by the strobe sequence of the Timeline, then it would appear to be a slightly fast rotation, but constant speed, while in fact it is not constant because it speeds up and slows down within the period of the strobe. One can imagine all kinds of variations to this.

The point I was trying to make is that to some degree, it is important to measure these things with tools. It does not tell the whole story, but it helps. I think this is what Raul means by analysis being both objective and subjective. I think this is the point that he is also trying to make, but for some reason he continues to be criticized.

Thuchan,

Here is no place to promote my turntable, but I will say that it is not a Lenco. That really isn't a fair comparison because it is an entirely different idler, like the EMT 927 is an entirely different idler. If you are coming to RMAF, we can continue down this path. I would like that.

Peterayer,

In reference to the Sutherland Timeline as a tool for judging turntables, I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone that an uneven speed is far more critical than one that is a bit off. Recently, a group of us checked a stellar sounding vintage turntable that did not spin exactly to the Timeline standard. In fact, it appeared to be significantly faster. After checking it again with Fieckert's software, it was determined that it was spinning at 33.45 RPM, but it was perfectly consistent. The slight increase in speed is most likely due to a replacement belt that is probably the wrong thickness. Compare that turntable with a turntable that spins 33.34 almost all the time, but with noticeable moments of change that cannot be attributed to a parts replacement. Which would you pick? My point is that the tool should be used carefully, so as to not draw a wrong conclusion.

Peter,
I tested the R 80 with the Timeline. The table is about 60 cm away from the wall where the red point is keeping in a stable position. My motor management is controlled by the Dusch Multiconverter DU 937 which allows a felt brake compensation and vari-speed.

Rauliruegas,

1- Please don't get me started on your Gladiator test, I've been containing myself. There are so many holes in your test method that I can make a fine sieve of! But life is too short...

2- The EMT is already an established and known commodity, my seal approval or otherwise changes nothing. The EMT has the track record and a deserved reputation of being one of the greatest record players ever made; people have even written a couple of books on it. You can say what you want about some arbitrary measurements but until you actually see and listen to one, sorry to say you really don't know what you're talking about. I wish my "liking it" would have that kind of positive affect on people. The credit here goes entirely to Mr. Franz and his EMT. I don't understand why you're trying so hard to put the 927 down.

3- The throwing out my LPs was a joke, relax and enjoy the conversation without getting obsessed there's enough of that out there.

david

Peterayer, do you think that the Timeline is is more accurate than a hand held or built in strobe which in 927's case I find as accurate as my handheld ones? The 927 has brake control to slow it down or one can use a frequency controller to reduce or increase the speed, either way it holds its speed. The Timeline is fine if you have a wall nearby and you have to mark the location where you're pointing the laser at and if you touch and it moves you have to start again, I really don't see the advantage over a QUALITY strobe.

Raul, I agree with you about the importance of measurements and I'm sure that tt designers use them to develop their products. One well known and enthusiastic member of these forums even advocates auditioning turntables with a Sutherland Timeline strobe in pocket. That way one will know very quickly if a turntable at a dealership (or friend's house) meets one of the essential targets of all turntables.

I also think your description of the analysis of audio components as being both objective and subjective is right on. But I see nothing wrong with someone thinking "I like it". This sounds subjective, but it may also be supported by the notions of accuracy and neutrality. Speaking only for myself, "I like it" when my system improves with changes and sounds more and more like the real thing. Low distortion and speed accuracy certainly contribute to it sounding natural.

Has anyone tested the EMT 927 with a Timeline?

Dear Bydlo: +++++ " I think just one plain number as W&F tells you as much
about a TT as a shoe size about a girl. " ++++++

I agree and that's not what I posted here, measurements ( today ) can't tell thw whole " history " but we can't diminished.

I prefer a mproduct hat sounds good and measured good that one that ( everything the same ) measured in poor way because goes against MUSIC and against my targets.

Could make sense to you that a TT designer design the item with out measure it, at least for curiosity?

Example: if I'm designing a TT at least I want that spins at 33 1/3 rpm/45rpm not at 36-45.8 rpm and like this other parameters independent of all the whole TT design.

We can't live with out measures, that girl you taloked about gives you itz size/measure shoes and how old are you? or what time is it? or the size of your chirt? or how many hours to fly to Hong Kong?

Accuracy, neutrality and measurements are not the " eveil " no one wants to talk, it is part of our life in any single stage of it and in audio is not the exception: like it or not.

Please, any one of you tell me why you don't want to know about accuracy or measurements on audio items because designers must do it.

Mosin here, talked about: that he alredy gone to the lmit of the idler technology about speed stability.

It makes no sense to me try to deny all those subjects that ar critical an important part on each one of us audio systems.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dkarmeli: You don't need to throw all your records, why? that's not the subject and the irony in your statement neither.

Yes, the only fact you have is subjective: " I like it ", nothing wrong with that. My subject goes beyond it and involve alot more that only that. I'm not biased in the same way you are, my take in my home audio system is to enjoy in all its splendor the MUSIC that comes in the LP grooves adding and losting the less.
To achieve that target I need accuracy, neutrality and very very low distortions ( any kind. ) at each audio link in my system. I'm trying to be nearest to the limits/boundaries of LP experience, be nearest to " perfection " because first than all I'm a music lover and not a harware lover that's only a tool to enjoy the software named MUSIC.

Dkarmeli, the difference between each one of us reside in what kind of distortions we like. Btw, I don't like any kind of added distortion/colorations in my system, I already posted: is more than enough all distortions/colorations that already comes in the LPs to not take care in deep where the cartridge signal must pass and try to avoid signal degradation.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, I think just one plain number as W&F tells you as much
about a TT as a shoe size about a girl. Sticking to it has as much sense as sticking to THD with amps. Have you ever heard a good sounding amp with 0.000000001% THD?
Just like THD is a very-very coarse grained estimation of amps' linearity and a full distortion spectrum is more informative, W&F is a very-very corse grained estimation of TT's speed stability. There is much more to that. For those who are interested in more detailed analysis and speed instability spectra here is the source:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70027&highlight=turntable+speed+analysis

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128190&highlight=turntable+speed+analysis

Cheers,
b

Rauliruegas said, ""I invite any one of you try to think " out the box " and I'm sure you will improve a lot your enjoying MUSIC experiences trhough each one audio system."

Thank you for that Raul, I'll feel much better after throwing away my 927 and all my records, why didn't I think of that before.

-'Well this is a different perspective to analize that EMT item where we can't change facts only because that : " I like it "

I actually love it and that's a fact! I'm pretty sure Thuchan loves his too and apparently a whole lot of other people. You seem to be infatuated by my "I like it" and ignore everything else out there. Be my guest.

-'IMHO there that touted " holly grail " is a misunderstanding about and I think almost an " insult " to today TT designers.'

You can't be serious, are you?

Dkarmely: Remember that to make comparisons I have to have both versions: the digital and the LP.

Btw, that Gladiator is really a mundane old CD that I compared against the audiophile LP today pressing.

R.

Mosin,
why the hell is your Saskia II so expensive. I listened to a very well equiped Anatase turntable at RMAF 2011 and got excited about the Lenco's abilities. Nevertheless I went into other adventures later on also because the owner of OMA wasn't really flexible from my point of view (not really regarding money). I always made good experience with the material slate and the idler drive principle.
So what is so unique making your Saskia II five times as expensive than an Anatase?

Dear Rauliruegas, I'm not getting into digital vs analog discussion here, I was merely pointing out the difference in our approach to high end audio and telling you that I can't supply the data that you're looking for, because its meaningless to me!

FYI, I distributed and sell state of the art digital I'm very aware of what it is. I will tell you if your Micro Seiki 5000 isn't KILLING the best and the most expensive digital out there then you should look to see where the problem is with your system and/or setup.

Dear Swampwalker: ++++ " what is essentially a subjective experience may, " ++++

that's your opinion bacause for me is an objective/subjective experience.

Btw, I took that analogy with out revising nothing of information.

You understand perfectly the subject of accuracy . That you took your time to investigate something on my samples to find out where I could be wrong is futile not objectivity.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dkarmeli: +++++ " If you paid me I wouldn't sit in a roomful of audiophiles listening to gladiator, vangelis or any other audiophile paraphernalia du jour comparing analog vs digital .... " +++++

well, the mundane Gladiator CD is a challenge ( played trhough latest DAC technology. ) for any top audio system including yours.

When any one can listen the Gladiator CD at 95+ SPL and peaks on the 107db and is gratificating what are listening then you can say your system is at the very top quality performance level performing with very low distortions and near to that neutral characteristic and obviously with accuracy.
In the other side when that happened then you can be sure that any single LP will shines in that audio system.

Btw, Gladiator is only an example, I use several recordings with every kind of music: classical, jazz, blues, pop, rock, etc, etc. where any one can attest the today digital supremacy over LP and if you use a DVDA to compare it against the same LP recording you just can't belive it.

There are several good reasons behind the today latest digital technology that permits to affirm that supremacy against LP.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

ear friends: IMHO analizing any subject from different perspectives always help.

I said that po-audio products as the 927 and other EMT models were designed not for music lovers audiophiles as you or me but for the specific needs of Radio Stations and in lower grade to recording companies ( Technics and Denon models were the answer to EMT on those markets with the SP-10 and DP 100. ) and those needs are not necesarly the same what we needs other than a TT can spin.

Radio Stations needs at least three main targets: fast start/stop, drive power and that the unit can works with out problems 18-24 hours a day 365 days a year. They don't care about almost any other thing. The EMT is a package not only a TT that comes even with the phono stage integrated, something that we don't need it.

Of course that the EMT TTs could works in our today audio systems but I think is not the best option as is not an option for any one of us that instead to use a normal Honda ( or whatever ) car use a Formula 1.
Sure the Formula 1 is great but is great for Formula 1 races not to our city streets that ask for different needs.

Now, here are some specs on EMT TTs that could confirm what I said:

the 938, 948 and 930 models had a signal to noise ratio: 70db and wow and flutter: 0.075%

where the 950 shows a less poorer ( but still a poor and along the others the worst specs I seen in my life for a TT that several people things are top ones when certainly are not. ) spec on w&f: 0.05%.

All of them speed innaccuracy is : 0.1% when an average Denon model ( Not the top, from those times. ) has: 0.002%

IMHO there that touted " holly grail " is a misunderstanding about and I think almost an " insult " to today TT designers.

I repeat what I said: if that EMT were so good then many other manufacturers today already designed around it but this is not happening because they understand in better way the today home audio system needs.

Biased opinions are not a reference against a " calm/cool " unbiased ones ( not mine. ).

Well this is a different perspective to analize that EMT item where we can't change facts only because that : " I like it ".

I invite any one of you try to think " out the box " and I'm sure you will improve a lot your enjoying MUSIC experiences trhough each one audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Mosin, That association seems to have been fruitful, at least for OMA. Would love to get a chance to hear the Saskia.

David said, "Dear Mosin, isn't Oswald Mills yours?"

No, any association I had with that company was dissolved years ago. Saskia is my only product.

Raul- Not to be a nit-picker, but it seems to me that your accuracy analogy to the earth;s rotation is counter to your arguement. Unless I am mistaken, the earth's rotation is not "accurate" if by that you w/o variation. For example earth wobble a bit on it's axis and it's rotation is gradually slowing due to predictable tidal effects and unpredictable or stochastic effects, such as massive earthquakes. As Wikipedia notes"

The Earth's rotation axis moves with respect to the fixed stars (inertial space); the components of this motion are precession and nutation. The Earth's rotation axis also moves with respect to the Earth's crust; this is called polar motion.

Precession is a rotation of the Earth's rotation axis, caused primarily by external torques from the gravity of the Sun, Moon and other bodies. The polar motion is primarily due to free core nutation and the Chandler wobble.

Over millions of years, the rotation is significantly slowed by gravitational interactions with the Moon; both rotational energy and angular momentum are being slowly transferred to the Moon: see tidal acceleration. However some large scale events, such as the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, have caused the rotation to speed up by around 3 microseconds by affecting the Earth's moment of inertia.[21] Post-glacial rebound, ongoing since the last Ice age, is also changing the distribution of the Earth's mass thus affecting the moment of inertia of the Earth and, by the conservation of angular momentum, the Earth's rotation period.

Beethoven is different from Bach. Was Heifetz better than Perelman? Which conductor led the best performance of [insert symphony of your choice here]. Was Pavarotti "better" than Caruso. Are we talking about precision or accuracy? Obviously, these are rhetorical questions. Obviously there are some basic accuracy parameters that must be met, esp for a mechanical system like a TT/tonearm/cart.

My purpose is not to argue about your specific analogy but to point out that the use of objective criteria to define what is essentially a subjective experience may, ultimately, be futile. Reproduced music is not the same as the original performance. Never was and never will be.

Dear Dkarmeli: It's obvious that we are looking the audio subjects in different way.

In the other side I'm not trying to diminish the 927 I'm only trying to understand/find out facts that can confirm your words.

Subjectivity is unique to each person and even in your appreciated " romantic " way of thinking is not the same for other persons.

Dkarmeli, there are scientific reasons why you exist in the same manner that are scientific tools that can or not confirm your words on 927.

I posted before that when you say: " that's what I like it or I like it ", then the conversation is endded because there is no single argument against that " I like it " when the other side close the door.

I said that any audio subject must be analized in two ways: objective and subjective and of course with an unbiased mind.

Yes, for me accuracy and neutrality ( low low distortions/colorations. ) are my audio system targets. I don't like or want to add more color/distortions to the one that comes in the LP grooves.

Btw, if creativity is what you means with art then we can agree to disagree because that " solid engeneering " is not only " numbers " but how a human been handle those " numbers ", is part the creativity ( how it works with the " numbers " ) of that " solid engeneering " because one thing carry the other. Art is a little more that only creativity.

Anyway, thank's for your time.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dover, I'm referring to the later model called Parthenon 2025 on my old website that you linked to. You have a very rare beast there, I heard them a couple of times on my trips to Japan but never owned one. My friend had the SZ-1 and the American Sound to play next to the Parthenon.

It is sonically different from MS but its not only the motor, there are very many other differences. The materials are different, inverted bearing vs air bearing. The tone arm base setup, then there's the weight ratio between between base and platter which can also alter the sound. There probably are other less obvious design differences between the two. The later Parthenon 2025 wasn't bad sounding but used various gimmicks to try to achieve the same level as the original, the just didn't get far enough with it.

david

PS it's interesting that now twice in this thread people referred to our rooms at the shows as Lamm rooms, obviously I failed the marketing test!

Dkarmeli
I use the Micro as a reference simply because more people are familiar with these. I personally use the original Final Audio Parthenon VTT1/VSM2 with VDS17 Stabiliser & VM7 Mat which as you mention has a focus on unwanted energy dissipation from the record groove in its design goals along with a high inertia solution for speed stability. What differentiates it from the top Micro's and is clearly audible is the more sophisticated speed control which utilises sine & cosine wave generators for stability with the huge AC motor, variable torque to minimise motor noise, an inverted bearing design and the energy control paths are quite sophisticated even by todays standards, culminating in the stabiliser/mat/platter/bearing assembly and arm pod both terminated into a slab of SPZ ( superplastic zinc alloy ) that when excited grain slides at a molecular level. This results in an extremely rigid closed loop system between arm and platter but ensures energy is not transmitted from one to the other.

The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, ...

Which version are you referring to here. The later version - see pic here http://www.damoka.net/product_pages/analog/ as used by Lamm in one of their shows did not use the SPZ base and has a smaller and less substantial bearing pillar & subplatter assembly and is not as good as the original.

Mosin is too modest to say so, but I will wager that the Saskia outperforms the EMT927, in front of an impartial audience (either blinded or free of anyone with a preconceived notion of the supremacy of the 927). Now THAT would be an interesting side by side comparison.

Dover, it must be nice to be so certain in your audio beliefs.

Dear Mosin, isn't Oswald Mills yours?
david

Dkarmeli,

Thanks for the kind words, but I think you have me confused with someone else because I don't have a website, yet. I am proud of my work, though. I suppose I should stop stalling on that the website. For me, the presentation of my work online is more daunting than actually building it.

"Solid engineering is the foundation the rest of creation is all art."

You are right about this. Many of us are wired that way, probably almost everyone who tries to reach the limits of our craft. At some point, the designer's personality enters the mix, even if it is unintentional. Maybe that is what constitutes the signature that I was talking about.

Dear Rauliruegas, obviously you have your way of looking at things audio which is quite different than mine. My equipment bias is purely subjective based on years of hands on experience and that's what I can offer. If you paid me I wouldn't sit in a roomful of audiophiles listening to gladiator, vangelis or any other audiophile paraphernalia du jour comparing analog vs digital but you enjoy that and find it meaningful and conclusive.

The net is full of background information on EMT and testimony from very knowledgeable professionals and hobbyist alike, if that's not enough and you don't find any of them credible this conversation is a waste of our times.

All Huber did was change the chassis of his equipment and jack up the
prices he never changed what goes into the box, its still the same circuit
designs.

I know many engineers who disagree with you including Mosin here. Solid engineering is the foundation the rest of creation is all art. Check his website out, if his attractive designs don't impress you as art we're at another impasse.

Since all judgement, subjective and objective, is limited by the depth ones knowledge its never unbiased!

08-18-13: Lewm
Mosin, Would you therefore dismiss any turntable with a light weight platter (and therefore a rather low moment of inertia) as a "contender", just on that basis alone? And if so, what is your cut-off point for "acceptable" inertia, in terms of platter mass?
The 927 appears to have a "heavy" platter compared to that of other well loved idlers, but not in the league with some of the monster belt-drive platters I have seen, e.g., the Walker lead platter.

This is misrepresenting the 927. Although its platter is only 5kg the 16" diameter and weight distribution results in inertia similar to much much heavier platters ( I think 50kg equivalent has been suggested ). This may be a good thing, attaining high inertia but keeping mass and hence energy storage within the platter low.
The cutting lathes using the much vaunted Technics SP02 DD motor ( which in power and torque and poles is vastly superior to the SP10mk3 motor ) still used this flywheel effect as well with 60lb platters used in the cutting process despite the power and "servo" speed control.
Good turntable designs are very much a 'sum of the parts' - you cannot just ascribe a specific attribute such as what is the minimum platter mass required, because the answer will always be - that depends.... on the bearing, energy storage considerations, platter material, speed control etc etc
It's a bit like - I need to solve a problem, can I borrow Einsteins brain. It doesn't work. Why. His brain doesn't work without the cardiovascular system which you didn't specify in your request. Ok I got the rest now and it still doesn't work. Why. Because he likes a good walk and breakfast to get the juices flowing.

Dear Dkarmeli: +++++ " but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard .... " +++++

that only could proves that that design was made it thinking on that kind of market ( just like the SP-10 or Denon DP100 and other TT. ).

Normally those Industry standards are not necessary what we audiophile need. We have different needs that a recording engennerr. With a TT happen the same that with electronics: ask any audiophile here if is using pro-amplifiers or pro-DACS or pro-anything. I have experiences with that kind of pro-industrial design products.

If you see for example FM Acoustics when they decided to go to the high-end market they designed especial electronics for this market, they don't used its pro.industry designs: needs are way different.

I want that remember that were those recording engenners and record labels whom manipulate the microphone signal and were the culprit ( when it happen ) of so many bad recordings.
No, I don't want a celebrated pro-designed audio item: I want an audio item designed by a music lover audiophile that understand our needs.

The Industry standard means only that but not that is the best for us.

I changed in my set up ( other than my BD TTs. ) the SP-10 for a " simple " Denon and JVC TTs.

and this confirm my take:

+++++ " EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order.... " ++++++

Your statement:

++++++ " The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order.... " ++++++

is only an opinion.
Art?, IMHO art is MUSIC, SCULPTURE, PAINTING and the like. Engeneering design at any stage is only that: engeneering design that could have different level of quality and excution.

+++++ " I know enough to know what I like... " ++++++

of course you know but that is not the subject. The subject is more more deeper and a way different concept in audio that that: " I like it ".

I think that we have to analize audio subjects in our stage/scenario with its specific needs.

That an industrial design could works in our " land " not means is the Holly Grail in our " land " but only another option/alternative.

Btw, I think that in all audio subjects we have to analize them with two " charges/weights ": objectiv and subjective and unbiased.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Mosin: +++++ " True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average. " ++++

yes but then you have to go on the whole TT design about that inertia you are talking about to mantain always the speed accuracy. All these is clear and when that is achieved then we have accuracy all the time it does not matters stylus drag or problems in the elcetric source or whatever.

That kind of accuracy ( between many other things in the TT design. ) helps to have or approach for neutral performance target.

Seems to me that in all audio orders/items the accuracy word is an eveil word a forbidden word when accuracy is the norm that moves all the Universe and moves inside the Mother Nature.

The Earth planet spins around the Sun with absolutely accuracy that with out it the Earth could be burning or a celestial piece of ice. With out accuracy the perfect equilibrum that exist in the Universe fall down and collapse.

With out the kind of accuracy that has the Earth " forces/energies " the equilibrum will collapse too and the sea water ( example ) could goes six meters high.
When a lioness is hunting every single step on that hunting must be accurate to have success and the lioness knows a lot about accuracy and when non-accurate it fail on the hunting ( 60% of the time. ).

As with those examples there are " millions " on every day stages that its behavior foundation is accuracy as the human been organism: our heart or lungs works with exceptional accuracy as any other of our organs/glands.

Accuracy is ne name of the Phisycs Laws or Mathematics. Accuracy is the foundation and prevail in all life stages all over the Universe.

Your example: +++ " I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive " ++++

speaks of accuracy.

Why no one in audio accept or wants to speaks about accuracy?, when is the norm/rule elsewhere.

In a phono cartridge accuracy is showed at different stages: cartridge tracking abilities makes a difference between cartridges because : how accurate the cartridge track the grooves makes those differennces. At other stage we can see how accuracy is part of a cartridge design: how accurate the cartridge can convert the stylus/cantilever movements on MUSIC.

In a phono stage we can have different levels of accuracy in the RIAA eq. due to the deviations in every single phono stage from the RIAA eq. standard.

Why are we looking that our cartridge and tonearm stay matched?, because the quality performance will be more accurate and neutral that if not!!!

I can follow mention hundreds of examples how accuracy lives inside any audio item design, so why not name it wioth the name that belongs to all those: ACCURACY.

Even each one ears/body has different accuracy level.

Neutrality has a hard relationship with accuracy and is way different from that " natural " that Dkarmely mentioned.

In your post: +++ "
"speed accurate" to at least one part per million ... " +++

the word accurate you writed inside quotation marks, why? when you achieved the limit of idler drive mechanism. Why that " fear " to name things as they are!!!!!

IMHO even if you audio item designers ( not all. ) preclude the use of accuracy/neutrality each single step in your designs ( not all. ) carry on the mark of: accuracy/neutrality even if you can't achieve it but you work for it in each single step in a TT design ( or other audio item) because I can't think and make no sense that a TT designer can design the plinth or arm board with out accuracy and dead neutral as targets.

Of course that all of you can follow denyying: ACCURACY AND NEUTRALITY with out no single reason.

Agree with you that today tipical measurements ( I posted ) can't tell us all thye history but today those kind of measurements is all what we have and for good or not that's all what we have and a useful tool along our listener experiences that through many years we developed several abilities and one of that was to be to have and discern more accurately with a better understand what is wrong or what is good more that what we like.
Many os us like wrong or average " things/colorations " but this is not the whole audio subject

I try every single day to learn for I can improve my awareness on accuracy and neutrality.

Of course that any one of you can have way different targets.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dover.

Thank you again for your interest in my upgrade, re the "woolly" comment, you are quite correct. Please refer to my web site where this phenomena is specifically discussed. It takes months for this trait to settle, whereupon it becomes superior to the original. See also the comments from Joe of Pass Labs, covering this topic.

Dkarmeli.

Thank you for the feedback. I have not heard a 927, but from the pictures it appears to be a superbly engineered machine.

Dear Mosin, I'm assuming that you're talking about Denon's broadcast models. I had a DP-100M which unfortunately went missing on the way to one of the shows. You're correct about the Denons, they don't suffer from the servo artifacts and are extremely accurate and musical but it was closed system so all my listening included Denon's arm. I heard good things about the DP-308 but never came across one.

In the world of mass market consumer products Denon is quite unique in their ability of making very musically satisfying products even in their budget range.

Dear Dover, "From my listening experiences neither of these DD's would compete with the top Micro Seiki's that I have heard in the areas of musical flow and coherence."

You don't need top MS tables for that the basic RX-1500 is already superior to these tables in those areas. Then again Micro Seiki's track record speaks for itself.

Lew,

I did dismiss turntables with lightweight platters, until I heard a Mitchell Cotter. The motor can provide the needed system inertia, though. By the way, the EMT 927 platter is fairly lightweight. It is around 12.5 lbs. not counting the mat, if my memory serves me.

According to Mark Kelly's math, 35 lbs. is the cutoff point for the weight of an idler type turntable, but I have never put it to the test.

The servo mechanism used in top Denons seems to have a leg up on the others I have heard, but my exposure is extremely limited.