Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Halcro, I love your Victor. I have sought one for years.

Dear Dkarmely: There is no doubt that you are a passionate music lover an audiophile and a in deep admirer of the 927 and so deep that maybe you a are leaving some importants facts or at least not mentioned yet on the 927 quality performance.

I have no doubt either that at engeneering level the 927 is a " tour de force " and I would like to know how that so high level of engeneering is reflected against some facts/specs/measures that speaks about one of the main design TT targets named accuracy. I think that first than all when we are talking at this so high level of designs we have the right to know how accurate is the item.

So, how it compares on signal to noise ratio for example against the Exclusive 3a that measures 95db? or against the Yamaha GT 2000 with a wow and flutter of 0.0025%? or the Technics SP10MK3 speed stability of 0.0001%?

Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about.

Now, I agree with Tonywynsc that neutrality could be the " perfection " that can't be achieved but ( again ) when we are touting so high the 927 is reasonable to ask for that characteristic that as Peterayer said is plain and simple: " don't add or lost nothing to the recorded signal ".

Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions.

I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT.

Btw, Mosin I think that is so elusive the neutrality target that you really can't find out that " boring " you said. But that's not the point, what you said seems to me only : how to find out a mistake on what I posted. I know that you know exactly what I'm refering when I speak of neutrality on TTs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Hi Tbg,
I love the Victor also :-)
Extremely hard to find these days.....in good working order?
It took me two years to find mine....and I kissed a few frogs before I found the Princess.
If you contact Tommy at TopClass Audio and ask him to find one........at least you know it will be working. Tommy also has the TT-101 as his personal turntable so he knows what to look for.
Good luck.....

Tonywinsc, there is an easy way to understand neutrality without unicorns.

Make your own recordings and commit them to LP. The process of doing so will result in a recording of which you have a complete understanding and memory. When you hear it played back you will instantly know the limitations of the playback system and will be able to gravitate to those that impose less limitation.

IME, transducers and electronics arrived at a point long ago such that they can fool the most jaundiced audiophile (seen it happen) but the media (tape, LP, digital) has a long way to go (although lathe cuts played back on a good system are the best thing out there by a long shot).

Hmm. Maybe I am talking more about 'reference' here than I am 'neutral'...

Halcro, is TopClass Audio in Hong Kong?

Mosin,
I agree with you on the usage of the term neutral. This seems to be to most often abused expression in High End. People were educated going for a neutral (= no influences of any part of the TT in comparison to the original recording) reproduction. The term itself is a contradiction. But in man's history everyone was looking for the stone of wisdom and some church bishops developed rules and everyone followed. Followers have an easy job just repeating this formula all the time giving themselves a kind of wisdom.
Of course we know that the world is colorful and that even the quality of master tape recordings depends on the engineer's carefully designed set up as well as the capabilities of the musicians and the room. Whoever has visited different recording studios knows that the term neutral is complete bullshit. I understand that people are always on the road asking for traffic signs, guide lines and reglementation - also on audio.

Nevertheless one may argue if we cannot set up a standard in recording we need to agree on a standard in reproduction and this one we may call neutral.Following this reaching the highest standard in reproduction is a 1:1 copy delivered by the turntable. All small deviations caused by the drive, tonearm, cartridge etc. are not allowed. What you need to do is owning the master tape or at least a 1st copy tape and compare it with the turntable's result. I sometimes do it with my Reel to Reels just to get an idea of the turntables signature which all have!

Doing this I have found out that neutrality is a nice theoretical formula. People hunting for this might believe they are on the right track but the reality shows a different picture. Usually the ones being happy with the sound at home are those who know about the signature of their reproducing machines and do like this. It seems to me that more often unhappy people are going on the neverending quest for something neutral - my god there must be a unit providing this and who is not seeking a neutral reproduction cannot be a musical expert at all

Raul,

"I know that you know exactly what I'm refering when I speak of neutrality on TTs."

I did not understand, and I did not mean to offend. It is just that I find the term to be misleading for the reasons that Thuchan explained so eloquently in the post above this one, assuming the word "bullshit" fits into ones definition of eloquent. Being the forward thinker that I am, I'll accept it. LOL

Yes it is Tbg...

Dear Rauliruegas, Thuchan's thread started with a question about a quality that can't be measured and his emotional reaction to the EMT 927, so yes its all subjective. You bring up a few different points and I want to break it up and answer you to the best of my ability.

1- What we have here with the 927, American Sound and others isn't something that you can capture, put in a bottle and sell, it goes way beyond measurements. This is a musical interment designed and fabricated by someone who was an artist and an engineer. What is it makes a Stradivari or a Guarneri so special. If you see theses instruments up close, there's nothing special looking about them. They're dull and utilitarian yet they have a magic that no one's been able to explain, measure or reproduce. You can hear it and you'll feel inside you, its there and its real but how do you qualify or measure it if not subjectively? This is exactly what you have with a 927. The EMT 930 is a fantastic turntable and a near exact smaller copy of the 927 but it doesn't share that special quality that we're trying to define with words here. This isn't BS or illusionary its there and its beyond the norm.

2- Measurements are important but in this and they play a part for sure but they can't explain things. A HT subwoofer might measure down to 16hz or lower but is it the same 16hz that you get from a great pipe organ? They'll measure the same but subjectively different!

You mention the SP10MK3, wonderful table, very good sound specially with the heavy obsidian. It measures great too but at the end of the day it lacked that special something that makes the others great. Mosin briefly discussed EMT's motor and I'm sure that its part of the overall recipe as is SP10's motor. That speed stability of 0.0001% you is achieved by its motor, which is part of why I don't care much for the SP10. They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly. Granted the SP10 was one of the best of its kind with less noticeable artifacts than the ordinary servo controlled motors but they're still there. So this fantastic measurement which on the one hand tells a story of greatness also creates some of the major shortcomings of the table. My point here is that the measurements serve a purpose but at the end of the day my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me.

3- "Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about."

The quality engineering is all there and that's only part of the story. The character at work here is extremely rare you can't just quantify it and measure it when there no comps. The best I can do is to invite you for a listen.

4- "Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions."

No, I never said anything about colorations and distortions, Natural means just that. Its a sense of realism portrayed these tables. As a matter of fact its exactly the opposite. There's no overriding tonal character here, every recording and performance sounds distinctly different. The only constant is reality. Real person, real instrument, real performance. I don't hear additions or omissions of character but that's always subjective too. We have no way of knowing what is in those grooves, only what I hear sounds and FEELS real and its different from disc to disc.

5-" I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT."

The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, The American Sound Table is a minimalist design, a purists dream. There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose. Its brutally simple and I think that's why i think it sounds the way it does.

Dear Mosin: What could be main targets for you or people like you when are going to design an audio item?

for me that that audio item " does not add or lost nothing to the recorded signal ". That we can achieve it or not is another matter but the important subject is the target.

The R"R comparison sugested here IMHO does not works because what's in the LP grooves is way different from what is in the tape if for no other thing because the eq. RIAA. We have to remember the additional steps where the signal must pass before we can have on hand a LP.

All in " nature " have its own natural coloration. We can't mimic the real thing in a two channel home audio system, so at least try that at each single link in the audio system chain all those link can approach ( nearest ) that neutrality.

I care about in my system. Approaching 100% of accuracy and lowering every kind of distortions through all those system links we can be nearest to the LP grooves.

Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing.

I always say that the main difference between audio system is it's distortion levels ( everything the same ) and accuracy.

What are we touting here with the 927?, only subjective words not a single fact as the ones I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail? some people here say that the motor is something as the star? well where are the facts that can prove it against say the motor in the Rockpot Sirius 3 that has a signal to noise over 100db!!!

Subjective tests are always important but we need to have those measures on the item performance to know if what we are hearing is a real inprovement or only a full of distortions performance.

Now, if you have different targets than accuracy and neutrality then everything is different.

MS designers never had those targets and even in the SX-8000 they offered in those times two different kind of TT platters with different colorations. If a designer is looking for some kind of colorations ( named distortions. ) then he are away from neutrality/accuracy. Any one has the privilege to design or buy what he wants.

Things are that I like the accuracy/neutrality approach.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Halcro, I got in touch with Tommy. He still likes the Victor but says parts just cannot be found. I think I will probably just stick with my Nantais Lenco. Thanks for the information, however.

Raul,

You asked, "Dear Mosin: What could be main targets for you or people like you when are going to design an audio item?"

Dksrmeli made three points that are key, in my opinion.

"They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly."

" There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose."

So, I would suggest:

1) Do not interrupt the flow of the music by altering the speed in some artificial way.
2) Use inertia to best make the music happen in a natural way.
3) Don't add useless elements that get in the way of the music.

Of course, there are nuances to everything, but if the designer misses one of those three principles when designing a turntable, he is screwing up, in my honest opinion.

Dear Dkarmeli: Thank's for your wide answer explanation.

++++ " it goes way beyond measurements " ++++++

agree, with today measurements we can't explain for sure all what we percieve or discern on almost any audio item but those measurements is a reference especially when we are talking on this kind of top quality performance level.

Of course that what is important is how deep an audio item " moves " you how well wake up our emotions/feelings but from this point of view, that as you said we can't measure, MUSIC it self has a mains characteristics that's to moves you even if you are hearing trhough a Walkman.

I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs.

++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++

When we make that statement IMHO that means: " end of history ".
There is no single argument to that " I like it ". It lost any proposal because any one of us are unique and what you like it could not like to other persons and the other way around too.

Facts/measurements does not cares on what we like it but in what's wrong or good and that today measurements can't explain what we heard in precise way does not means that that can't do it it's only to know what to measure and where to measure. Even those the TT typical measurements are good reference.

What if the 927 S/N is a mundane 75db or the w/F only 0.1%? what could told us these measurements?, plain and simple: that what we like are colorations/distortions away to be natural and higher that what we can hear trough other TTs.

At the end the whole subject is really complex and only testings in the same audio system the 927 against other 6-7 top TTs we could have a " true light " about and only if that subjective testing were made it by non-biased persons avoiding that: " I like it ".

About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks " .

Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ).

Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject.

Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about.

Don't you think?

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Rauliruegas, "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it " + "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?." +I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail?

The conversation isn't about me liking it or not, I'm just another audiophile, with access to one who can confirm what others have heard and known long before I came along. The EMT 927 is a PROVEN REFERENCE and the Holy Grail without my liking it. There's years of history and track record and not only from the audiophiles but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard and holy grail from day one to the last day that they were made and that's nothing to do with my opinion of it. It was, is and will always be unique. Thank you Mr. Franz!

- "I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs."

EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order. The 930 had a very different set of design parameters to the 927 or high end consumer tables you're thinking of. It wasn't a mastering reference it was a dj table with market specific qualities and wasn't all about sound. It delivered what that market wanted 24/7 in spades, that's why they dominated that market until cheaper Japanese dd tables arrived. They did the same job for a fraction of the price, and again sound quality was't the main criteria. If you really want to know the 930 stick any of those top tt's in the same environment and then compare them. They use to stick the 930s in a van and drive around cobblestone streets playing music. Repairs in the field, swap out cartridges on the fly, and get abused by all kinds of users and still sound pretty good, which high end consumer tt you know of is capable of that? EMT engineers accomplished what they set out to do with everything they designed. They had very clear parameters that they adhered to.

- "Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing."

I used that analogy as an example of how different tables could all be right yet different at the same time. Its a matter of differing perspectives for the same reality and nothing specific to any recording or table. FYI what you hear on the finished LP is the mastering and production engineers perspective and not the microphones and their location.

- "About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks"

The principle behind the Parthenon 2025 was resonance control, they tried to do this with mixing copper and aluminum in the platter, the inverted bearing and the ridiculous ball bearing in the tonearm base and the wooden platform. Of course it was a high mass design common in Japan and was a pretty decent sounding table but compared to the Continuum which its design is also predicated on resonance control the Final is only a high school science project. And this is purely scientific fact and not anyone's subjective opinion.

- "Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ). Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject."

The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order and only the artist knows how to achieve what he created, you can't copy that if you're not on that level and the ones who are capable wont copy, they'll also create. Ask Mosin who's also and accomplished designer and creator, he can explain it better than I can.

-++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++

What's strange about that? I know enough to know what I like. My most treasured cartridge is a 60s vintage SPU with a crooked cantilever that came mounted for free with a 301 that I bought off ebay for parts, imagine that.

Raul said,

"Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about."

True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume that a given record has twelve transients of the same character on one side; say a cymbal crash followed by a low organ note. And, let's say that the turntable slows down 2% when it enters the transient, and speeds up 2% when it leaves the transient going into the low note, but only for a millisecond. Now, you have a smear in the music, and no matter how small it might be, the turntable is performing less than than optimum. So much for one the part per million measurement even if that is the average accuracy, right?

So, how could the measurement be beneficial? It is useful only for comparison with lesser turntables. However, if you calculate the inertia of the platter, then it would be useful without making some comparison that may, or may not, be a fair one. The reason that an inertia measurement along with a speed measurement would be useful is because then one could predict what might happen when transients are encountered. Nonetheless, it wouldn't necessarily tell anyone how the turntables sounds when compared to another one. Ears are best for that.

That crazy scenario is one example, but there are so many variables to almost every aspect of a turntable that developing a standardized system of meaningful specifications is virtually impossible. I would welcome such an endeavor, though.

Dear Dkarmeli
I totally agree with your assessment of the SP10 MK3. However this is, IMO not a result of its design, the use of a servo, or DD. I believe it is the way it is built.
The tension, greyness and lack of ebb and flow, can be significantly mitigated. On top of this, contrary to most contemporary views, in its as built form, the SP10 is quite noisy, but not in the conventionally measured way. It produces noise that rides along with the music. This modulation noise can be dramatically reduced.
Can it be made to equal the EMT? I have no idea, what I do know is that it can be made considerably better than standard.

Many thanks

08-18-13: Richardkrebs
I totally agree with your assessment of the SP10 MK3. However this is, IMO not a result of its design, the use of a servo, or DD. I believe it is the way it is built. The tension, greyness and lack of ebb and flow, can be significantly mitigated.

I dont agree with this comment. I hear a dissembling of musical flow and timing from the SP10's including the ones you have rebuilt.
If we compare direct drives on their own, the Kenwood L07D and SP10 sound quite different in terms of musical flow and timing. The SP10mk3 will measure better than the L07D because the L07D error correction servos only work when the speed error is quite large. The L07D relies on inertia to minimise tiny speed inaccuracies, whereas the SP10mk3 servos are much more aggressive.
The differences in the implementation of servos and their operating parameters are clearly discernible in the musical presentation of these 2 DD's which are quite different.
The Technics SP10's in particular dissemble the music, musical timing and expression becomes compartmentalised and lacks flow. Jean Nantais has expressed the same view, he prefers the softer servos as used in the Sony DD's to the SP10.
From my listening experiences neither of these DD's would compete with the top Micro Seiki's that I have heard in the areas of musical flow and coherence. The Gestalt of the music is lost with these DD's compared to a well implemented inertia driven system.
It may well be that if one has lived with Direct Drives with the intrinsic servo jitter for 30 years or so it is possible ones ear does not detect these issues the way that others do.
By the way, in response to your posts in the ET2 thread, I have now heard the full krebsupgrade and the SP10 in question sounds more woolly and ill defined than the earlier mule version of the exact same deck.

Tbg,
Tommy is right. Specific parts are not available without a 'donor' TT.
You may find This Thread amusing?

On the other hand.......new capacitors are all available....and Lewm has discovered that by Googling the transistor part Nos easily obtained from the Technical Manual on Vinyl Engine.......one can find replacements for all the transistors and ICs used in the TT-101 HERE

Life is too short to worry about the future.......?
My audio journey would be a lot poorer without the Victor TT-101 :-)

Dear Richardkrebs, thanks for sharing. Like the EMT 930 the SP10 were created with a different set of goals from the 927 by their designers. While you might tweak them you can't change their nature.

Mosin, Would you therefore dismiss any turntable with a light weight platter (and therefore a rather low moment of inertia) as a "contender", just on that basis alone? And if so, what is your cut-off point for "acceptable" inertia, in terms of platter mass? Or do you add in a factor based on intelligent use of friction, so the motor has a more constant opposing force, to partly mimic the effect of a very massive platter? (The 927 appears to have a "heavy" platter compared to that of other well loved idlers, but not in the league with some of the monster belt-drive platters I have seen, e.g., the Walker lead platter.)

There's them that just cannot ever be convinced about the possibilities of direct-drive, so hung up are they on a concept of the servo mechanism as a full-stop/full-go device that they cannot see past it. ANY turntable motor has to be able to respond instantaneously to the varying effects of stylus drag. Yes, lots of platter inertia helps but it cannot be the whole story.

Lew,

I did dismiss turntables with lightweight platters, until I heard a Mitchell Cotter. The motor can provide the needed system inertia, though. By the way, the EMT 927 platter is fairly lightweight. It is around 12.5 lbs. not counting the mat, if my memory serves me.

According to Mark Kelly's math, 35 lbs. is the cutoff point for the weight of an idler type turntable, but I have never put it to the test.

The servo mechanism used in top Denons seems to have a leg up on the others I have heard, but my exposure is extremely limited.

Dear Dover, "From my listening experiences neither of these DD's would compete with the top Micro Seiki's that I have heard in the areas of musical flow and coherence."

You don't need top MS tables for that the basic RX-1500 is already superior to these tables in those areas. Then again Micro Seiki's track record speaks for itself.

Dear Mosin, I'm assuming that you're talking about Denon's broadcast models. I had a DP-100M which unfortunately went missing on the way to one of the shows. You're correct about the Denons, they don't suffer from the servo artifacts and are extremely accurate and musical but it was closed system so all my listening included Denon's arm. I heard good things about the DP-308 but never came across one.

In the world of mass market consumer products Denon is quite unique in their ability of making very musically satisfying products even in their budget range.

Dover.

Thank you again for your interest in my upgrade, re the "woolly" comment, you are quite correct. Please refer to my web site where this phenomena is specifically discussed. It takes months for this trait to settle, whereupon it becomes superior to the original. See also the comments from Joe of Pass Labs, covering this topic.

Dkarmeli.

Thank you for the feedback. I have not heard a 927, but from the pictures it appears to be a superbly engineered machine.

Dear Mosin: +++++ " True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average. " ++++

yes but then you have to go on the whole TT design about that inertia you are talking about to mantain always the speed accuracy. All these is clear and when that is achieved then we have accuracy all the time it does not matters stylus drag or problems in the elcetric source or whatever.

That kind of accuracy ( between many other things in the TT design. ) helps to have or approach for neutral performance target.

Seems to me that in all audio orders/items the accuracy word is an eveil word a forbidden word when accuracy is the norm that moves all the Universe and moves inside the Mother Nature.

The Earth planet spins around the Sun with absolutely accuracy that with out it the Earth could be burning or a celestial piece of ice. With out accuracy the perfect equilibrum that exist in the Universe fall down and collapse.

With out the kind of accuracy that has the Earth " forces/energies " the equilibrum will collapse too and the sea water ( example ) could goes six meters high.
When a lioness is hunting every single step on that hunting must be accurate to have success and the lioness knows a lot about accuracy and when non-accurate it fail on the hunting ( 60% of the time. ).

As with those examples there are " millions " on every day stages that its behavior foundation is accuracy as the human been organism: our heart or lungs works with exceptional accuracy as any other of our organs/glands.

Accuracy is ne name of the Phisycs Laws or Mathematics. Accuracy is the foundation and prevail in all life stages all over the Universe.

Your example: +++ " I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive " ++++

speaks of accuracy.

Why no one in audio accept or wants to speaks about accuracy?, when is the norm/rule elsewhere.

In a phono cartridge accuracy is showed at different stages: cartridge tracking abilities makes a difference between cartridges because : how accurate the cartridge track the grooves makes those differennces. At other stage we can see how accuracy is part of a cartridge design: how accurate the cartridge can convert the stylus/cantilever movements on MUSIC.

In a phono stage we can have different levels of accuracy in the RIAA eq. due to the deviations in every single phono stage from the RIAA eq. standard.

Why are we looking that our cartridge and tonearm stay matched?, because the quality performance will be more accurate and neutral that if not!!!

I can follow mention hundreds of examples how accuracy lives inside any audio item design, so why not name it wioth the name that belongs to all those: ACCURACY.

Even each one ears/body has different accuracy level.

Neutrality has a hard relationship with accuracy and is way different from that " natural " that Dkarmely mentioned.

In your post: +++ "
"speed accurate" to at least one part per million ... " +++

the word accurate you writed inside quotation marks, why? when you achieved the limit of idler drive mechanism. Why that " fear " to name things as they are!!!!!

IMHO even if you audio item designers ( not all. ) preclude the use of accuracy/neutrality each single step in your designs ( not all. ) carry on the mark of: accuracy/neutrality even if you can't achieve it but you work for it in each single step in a TT design ( or other audio item) because I can't think and make no sense that a TT designer can design the plinth or arm board with out accuracy and dead neutral as targets.

Of course that all of you can follow denyying: ACCURACY AND NEUTRALITY with out no single reason.

Agree with you that today tipical measurements ( I posted ) can't tell us all thye history but today those kind of measurements is all what we have and for good or not that's all what we have and a useful tool along our listener experiences that through many years we developed several abilities and one of that was to be to have and discern more accurately with a better understand what is wrong or what is good more that what we like.
Many os us like wrong or average " things/colorations " but this is not the whole audio subject

I try every single day to learn for I can improve my awareness on accuracy and neutrality.

Of course that any one of you can have way different targets.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dkarmeli: +++++ " but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard .... " +++++

that only could proves that that design was made it thinking on that kind of market ( just like the SP-10 or Denon DP100 and other TT. ).

Normally those Industry standards are not necessary what we audiophile need. We have different needs that a recording engennerr. With a TT happen the same that with electronics: ask any audiophile here if is using pro-amplifiers or pro-DACS or pro-anything. I have experiences with that kind of pro-industrial design products.

If you see for example FM Acoustics when they decided to go to the high-end market they designed especial electronics for this market, they don't used its pro.industry designs: needs are way different.

I want that remember that were those recording engenners and record labels whom manipulate the microphone signal and were the culprit ( when it happen ) of so many bad recordings.
No, I don't want a celebrated pro-designed audio item: I want an audio item designed by a music lover audiophile that understand our needs.

The Industry standard means only that but not that is the best for us.

I changed in my set up ( other than my BD TTs. ) the SP-10 for a " simple " Denon and JVC TTs.

and this confirm my take:

+++++ " EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order.... " ++++++

Your statement:

++++++ " The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order.... " ++++++

is only an opinion.
Art?, IMHO art is MUSIC, SCULPTURE, PAINTING and the like. Engeneering design at any stage is only that: engeneering design that could have different level of quality and excution.

+++++ " I know enough to know what I like... " ++++++

of course you know but that is not the subject. The subject is more more deeper and a way different concept in audio that that: " I like it ".

I think that we have to analize audio subjects in our stage/scenario with its specific needs.

That an industrial design could works in our " land " not means is the Holly Grail in our " land " but only another option/alternative.

Btw, I think that in all audio subjects we have to analize them with two " charges/weights ": objectiv and subjective and unbiased.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

08-18-13: Lewm
Mosin, Would you therefore dismiss any turntable with a light weight platter (and therefore a rather low moment of inertia) as a "contender", just on that basis alone? And if so, what is your cut-off point for "acceptable" inertia, in terms of platter mass?
The 927 appears to have a "heavy" platter compared to that of other well loved idlers, but not in the league with some of the monster belt-drive platters I have seen, e.g., the Walker lead platter.

This is misrepresenting the 927. Although its platter is only 5kg the 16" diameter and weight distribution results in inertia similar to much much heavier platters ( I think 50kg equivalent has been suggested ). This may be a good thing, attaining high inertia but keeping mass and hence energy storage within the platter low.
The cutting lathes using the much vaunted Technics SP02 DD motor ( which in power and torque and poles is vastly superior to the SP10mk3 motor ) still used this flywheel effect as well with 60lb platters used in the cutting process despite the power and "servo" speed control.
Good turntable designs are very much a 'sum of the parts' - you cannot just ascribe a specific attribute such as what is the minimum platter mass required, because the answer will always be - that depends.... on the bearing, energy storage considerations, platter material, speed control etc etc
It's a bit like - I need to solve a problem, can I borrow Einsteins brain. It doesn't work. Why. His brain doesn't work without the cardiovascular system which you didn't specify in your request. Ok I got the rest now and it still doesn't work. Why. Because he likes a good walk and breakfast to get the juices flowing.

Dear Rauliruegas, obviously you have your way of looking at things audio which is quite different than mine. My equipment bias is purely subjective based on years of hands on experience and that's what I can offer. If you paid me I wouldn't sit in a roomful of audiophiles listening to gladiator, vangelis or any other audiophile paraphernalia du jour comparing analog vs digital but you enjoy that and find it meaningful and conclusive.

The net is full of background information on EMT and testimony from very knowledgeable professionals and hobbyist alike, if that's not enough and you don't find any of them credible this conversation is a waste of our times.

All Huber did was change the chassis of his equipment and jack up the
prices he never changed what goes into the box, its still the same circuit
designs.

I know many engineers who disagree with you including Mosin here. Solid engineering is the foundation the rest of creation is all art. Check his website out, if his attractive designs don't impress you as art we're at another impasse.

Since all judgement, subjective and objective, is limited by the depth ones knowledge its never unbiased!

Dkarmeli,

Thanks for the kind words, but I think you have me confused with someone else because I don't have a website, yet. I am proud of my work, though. I suppose I should stop stalling on that the website. For me, the presentation of my work online is more daunting than actually building it.

"Solid engineering is the foundation the rest of creation is all art."

You are right about this. Many of us are wired that way, probably almost everyone who tries to reach the limits of our craft. At some point, the designer's personality enters the mix, even if it is unintentional. Maybe that is what constitutes the signature that I was talking about.

Dear Mosin, isn't Oswald Mills yours?
david

Mosin is too modest to say so, but I will wager that the Saskia outperforms the EMT927, in front of an impartial audience (either blinded or free of anyone with a preconceived notion of the supremacy of the 927). Now THAT would be an interesting side by side comparison.

Dover, it must be nice to be so certain in your audio beliefs.

Dkarmeli
I use the Micro as a reference simply because more people are familiar with these. I personally use the original Final Audio Parthenon VTT1/VSM2 with VDS17 Stabiliser & VM7 Mat which as you mention has a focus on unwanted energy dissipation from the record groove in its design goals along with a high inertia solution for speed stability. What differentiates it from the top Micro's and is clearly audible is the more sophisticated speed control which utilises sine & cosine wave generators for stability with the huge AC motor, variable torque to minimise motor noise, an inverted bearing design and the energy control paths are quite sophisticated even by todays standards, culminating in the stabiliser/mat/platter/bearing assembly and arm pod both terminated into a slab of SPZ ( superplastic zinc alloy ) that when excited grain slides at a molecular level. This results in an extremely rigid closed loop system between arm and platter but ensures energy is not transmitted from one to the other.

The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, ...

Which version are you referring to here. The later version - see pic here http://www.damoka.net/product_pages/analog/ as used by Lamm in one of their shows did not use the SPZ base and has a smaller and less substantial bearing pillar & subplatter assembly and is not as good as the original.

Dover, I'm referring to the later model called Parthenon 2025 on my old website that you linked to. You have a very rare beast there, I heard them a couple of times on my trips to Japan but never owned one. My friend had the SZ-1 and the American Sound to play next to the Parthenon.

It is sonically different from MS but its not only the motor, there are very many other differences. The materials are different, inverted bearing vs air bearing. The tone arm base setup, then there's the weight ratio between between base and platter which can also alter the sound. There probably are other less obvious design differences between the two. The later Parthenon 2025 wasn't bad sounding but used various gimmicks to try to achieve the same level as the original, the just didn't get far enough with it.

david

PS it's interesting that now twice in this thread people referred to our rooms at the shows as Lamm rooms, obviously I failed the marketing test!

Dear Dkarmeli: It's obvious that we are looking the audio subjects in different way.

In the other side I'm not trying to diminish the 927 I'm only trying to understand/find out facts that can confirm your words.

Subjectivity is unique to each person and even in your appreciated " romantic " way of thinking is not the same for other persons.

Dkarmeli, there are scientific reasons why you exist in the same manner that are scientific tools that can or not confirm your words on 927.

I posted before that when you say: " that's what I like it or I like it ", then the conversation is endded because there is no single argument against that " I like it " when the other side close the door.

I said that any audio subject must be analized in two ways: objective and subjective and of course with an unbiased mind.

Yes, for me accuracy and neutrality ( low low distortions/colorations. ) are my audio system targets. I don't like or want to add more color/distortions to the one that comes in the LP grooves.

Btw, if creativity is what you means with art then we can agree to disagree because that " solid engeneering " is not only " numbers " but how a human been handle those " numbers ", is part the creativity ( how it works with the " numbers " ) of that " solid engeneering " because one thing carry the other. Art is a little more that only creativity.

Anyway, thank's for your time.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul- Not to be a nit-picker, but it seems to me that your accuracy analogy to the earth;s rotation is counter to your arguement. Unless I am mistaken, the earth's rotation is not "accurate" if by that you w/o variation. For example earth wobble a bit on it's axis and it's rotation is gradually slowing due to predictable tidal effects and unpredictable or stochastic effects, such as massive earthquakes. As Wikipedia notes"

The Earth's rotation axis moves with respect to the fixed stars (inertial space); the components of this motion are precession and nutation. The Earth's rotation axis also moves with respect to the Earth's crust; this is called polar motion.

Precession is a rotation of the Earth's rotation axis, caused primarily by external torques from the gravity of the Sun, Moon and other bodies. The polar motion is primarily due to free core nutation and the Chandler wobble.

Over millions of years, the rotation is significantly slowed by gravitational interactions with the Moon; both rotational energy and angular momentum are being slowly transferred to the Moon: see tidal acceleration. However some large scale events, such as the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, have caused the rotation to speed up by around 3 microseconds by affecting the Earth's moment of inertia.[21] Post-glacial rebound, ongoing since the last Ice age, is also changing the distribution of the Earth's mass thus affecting the moment of inertia of the Earth and, by the conservation of angular momentum, the Earth's rotation period.

Beethoven is different from Bach. Was Heifetz better than Perelman? Which conductor led the best performance of [insert symphony of your choice here]. Was Pavarotti "better" than Caruso. Are we talking about precision or accuracy? Obviously, these are rhetorical questions. Obviously there are some basic accuracy parameters that must be met, esp for a mechanical system like a TT/tonearm/cart.

My purpose is not to argue about your specific analogy but to point out that the use of objective criteria to define what is essentially a subjective experience may, ultimately, be futile. Reproduced music is not the same as the original performance. Never was and never will be.

David said, "Dear Mosin, isn't Oswald Mills yours?"

No, any association I had with that company was dissolved years ago. Saskia is my only product.

Mosin, That association seems to have been fruitful, at least for OMA. Would love to get a chance to hear the Saskia.

ear friends: IMHO analizing any subject from different perspectives always help.

I said that po-audio products as the 927 and other EMT models were designed not for music lovers audiophiles as you or me but for the specific needs of Radio Stations and in lower grade to recording companies ( Technics and Denon models were the answer to EMT on those markets with the SP-10 and DP 100. ) and those needs are not necesarly the same what we needs other than a TT can spin.

Radio Stations needs at least three main targets: fast start/stop, drive power and that the unit can works with out problems 18-24 hours a day 365 days a year. They don't care about almost any other thing. The EMT is a package not only a TT that comes even with the phono stage integrated, something that we don't need it.

Of course that the EMT TTs could works in our today audio systems but I think is not the best option as is not an option for any one of us that instead to use a normal Honda ( or whatever ) car use a Formula 1.
Sure the Formula 1 is great but is great for Formula 1 races not to our city streets that ask for different needs.

Now, here are some specs on EMT TTs that could confirm what I said:

the 938, 948 and 930 models had a signal to noise ratio: 70db and wow and flutter: 0.075%

where the 950 shows a less poorer ( but still a poor and along the others the worst specs I seen in my life for a TT that several people things are top ones when certainly are not. ) spec on w&f: 0.05%.

All of them speed innaccuracy is : 0.1% when an average Denon model ( Not the top, from those times. ) has: 0.002%

IMHO there that touted " holly grail " is a misunderstanding about and I think almost an " insult " to today TT designers.

I repeat what I said: if that EMT were so good then many other manufacturers today already designed around it but this is not happening because they understand in better way the today home audio system needs.

Biased opinions are not a reference against a " calm/cool " unbiased ones ( not mine. ).

Well this is a different perspective to analize that EMT item where we can't change facts only because that : " I like it ".

I invite any one of you try to think " out the box " and I'm sure you will improve a lot your enjoying MUSIC experiences trhough each one audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dkarmeli: +++++ " If you paid me I wouldn't sit in a roomful of audiophiles listening to gladiator, vangelis or any other audiophile paraphernalia du jour comparing analog vs digital .... " +++++

well, the mundane Gladiator CD is a challenge ( played trhough latest DAC technology. ) for any top audio system including yours.

When any one can listen the Gladiator CD at 95+ SPL and peaks on the 107db and is gratificating what are listening then you can say your system is at the very top quality performance level performing with very low distortions and near to that neutral characteristic and obviously with accuracy.
In the other side when that happened then you can be sure that any single LP will shines in that audio system.

Btw, Gladiator is only an example, I use several recordings with every kind of music: classical, jazz, blues, pop, rock, etc, etc. where any one can attest the today digital supremacy over LP and if you use a DVDA to compare it against the same LP recording you just can't belive it.

There are several good reasons behind the today latest digital technology that permits to affirm that supremacy against LP.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Swampwalker: ++++ " what is essentially a subjective experience may, " ++++

that's your opinion bacause for me is an objective/subjective experience.

Btw, I took that analogy with out revising nothing of information.

You understand perfectly the subject of accuracy . That you took your time to investigate something on my samples to find out where I could be wrong is futile not objectivity.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Rauliruegas, I'm not getting into digital vs analog discussion here, I was merely pointing out the difference in our approach to high end audio and telling you that I can't supply the data that you're looking for, because its meaningless to me!

FYI, I distributed and sell state of the art digital I'm very aware of what it is. I will tell you if your Micro Seiki 5000 isn't KILLING the best and the most expensive digital out there then you should look to see where the problem is with your system and/or setup.

Mosin,
why the hell is your Saskia II so expensive. I listened to a very well equiped Anatase turntable at RMAF 2011 and got excited about the Lenco's abilities. Nevertheless I went into other adventures later on also because the owner of OMA wasn't really flexible from my point of view (not really regarding money). I always made good experience with the material slate and the idler drive principle.
So what is so unique making your Saskia II five times as expensive than an Anatase?

Dkarmely: Remember that to make comparisons I have to have both versions: the digital and the LP.

Btw, that Gladiator is really a mundane old CD that I compared against the audiophile LP today pressing.

R.

Rauliruegas said, ""I invite any one of you try to think " out the box " and I'm sure you will improve a lot your enjoying MUSIC experiences trhough each one audio system."

Thank you for that Raul, I'll feel much better after throwing away my 927 and all my records, why didn't I think of that before.

-'Well this is a different perspective to analize that EMT item where we can't change facts only because that : " I like it "

I actually love it and that's a fact! I'm pretty sure Thuchan loves his too and apparently a whole lot of other people. You seem to be infatuated by my "I like it" and ignore everything else out there. Be my guest.

-'IMHO there that touted " holly grail " is a misunderstanding about and I think almost an " insult " to today TT designers.'

You can't be serious, are you?

Raul, I think just one plain number as W&F tells you as much
about a TT as a shoe size about a girl. Sticking to it has as much sense as sticking to THD with amps. Have you ever heard a good sounding amp with 0.000000001% THD?
Just like THD is a very-very coarse grained estimation of amps' linearity and a full distortion spectrum is more informative, W&F is a very-very corse grained estimation of TT's speed stability. There is much more to that. For those who are interested in more detailed analysis and speed instability spectra here is the source:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70027&highlight=turntable+speed+analysis

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128190&highlight=turntable+speed+analysis

Cheers,
b

Dear Dkarmeli: You don't need to throw all your records, why? that's not the subject and the irony in your statement neither.

Yes, the only fact you have is subjective: " I like it ", nothing wrong with that. My subject goes beyond it and involve alot more that only that. I'm not biased in the same way you are, my take in my home audio system is to enjoy in all its splendor the MUSIC that comes in the LP grooves adding and losting the less.
To achieve that target I need accuracy, neutrality and very very low distortions ( any kind. ) at each audio link in my system. I'm trying to be nearest to the limits/boundaries of LP experience, be nearest to " perfection " because first than all I'm a music lover and not a harware lover that's only a tool to enjoy the software named MUSIC.

Dkarmeli, the difference between each one of us reside in what kind of distortions we like. Btw, I don't like any kind of added distortion/colorations in my system, I already posted: is more than enough all distortions/colorations that already comes in the LPs to not take care in deep where the cartridge signal must pass and try to avoid signal degradation.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Bydlo: +++++ " I think just one plain number as W&F tells you as much
about a TT as a shoe size about a girl. " ++++++

I agree and that's not what I posted here, measurements ( today ) can't tell thw whole " history " but we can't diminished.

I prefer a mproduct hat sounds good and measured good that one that ( everything the same ) measured in poor way because goes against MUSIC and against my targets.

Could make sense to you that a TT designer design the item with out measure it, at least for curiosity?

Example: if I'm designing a TT at least I want that spins at 33 1/3 rpm/45rpm not at 36-45.8 rpm and like this other parameters independent of all the whole TT design.

We can't live with out measures, that girl you taloked about gives you itz size/measure shoes and how old are you? or what time is it? or the size of your chirt? or how many hours to fly to Hong Kong?

Accuracy, neutrality and measurements are not the " eveil " no one wants to talk, it is part of our life in any single stage of it and in audio is not the exception: like it or not.

Please, any one of you tell me why you don't want to know about accuracy or measurements on audio items because designers must do it.

Mosin here, talked about: that he alredy gone to the lmit of the idler technology about speed stability.

It makes no sense to me try to deny all those subjects that ar critical an important part on each one of us audio systems.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, I agree with you about the importance of measurements and I'm sure that tt designers use them to develop their products. One well known and enthusiastic member of these forums even advocates auditioning turntables with a Sutherland Timeline strobe in pocket. That way one will know very quickly if a turntable at a dealership (or friend's house) meets one of the essential targets of all turntables.

I also think your description of the analysis of audio components as being both objective and subjective is right on. But I see nothing wrong with someone thinking "I like it". This sounds subjective, but it may also be supported by the notions of accuracy and neutrality. Speaking only for myself, "I like it" when my system improves with changes and sounds more and more like the real thing. Low distortion and speed accuracy certainly contribute to it sounding natural.

Has anyone tested the EMT 927 with a Timeline?

Peterayer, do you think that the Timeline is is more accurate than a hand held or built in strobe which in 927's case I find as accurate as my handheld ones? The 927 has brake control to slow it down or one can use a frequency controller to reduce or increase the speed, either way it holds its speed. The Timeline is fine if you have a wall nearby and you have to mark the location where you're pointing the laser at and if you touch and it moves you have to start again, I really don't see the advantage over a QUALITY strobe.

Rauliruegas,

1- Please don't get me started on your Gladiator test, I've been containing myself. There are so many holes in your test method that I can make a fine sieve of! But life is too short...

2- The EMT is already an established and known commodity, my seal approval or otherwise changes nothing. The EMT has the track record and a deserved reputation of being one of the greatest record players ever made; people have even written a couple of books on it. You can say what you want about some arbitrary measurements but until you actually see and listen to one, sorry to say you really don't know what you're talking about. I wish my "liking it" would have that kind of positive affect on people. The credit here goes entirely to Mr. Franz and his EMT. I don't understand why you're trying so hard to put the 927 down.

3- The throwing out my LPs was a joke, relax and enjoy the conversation without getting obsessed there's enough of that out there.

david