Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

@mikelavigne, "ultra tonal density" and similar presentation to a Studer A-820?

Wow! Sounds like the Saskia 2 could be another 'forgotten' product that should be more familiar to us. 

Sometimes I wonder whether the press deliberately treats us like sheep merely leading us from fashion to fashion. I remember when I first got into audio (mid 80s) and how direct drive was totally out of fashion. Idler drive fared even worse, seemingly a totally taboo relic of the past in the eyes of the UK press.

Thankfully forums like this can rectify some of this neglect. You no longer have to spend decades finding your way around since readily available shared knowledge and experience in this hobby can take you a long way towards sonic satisfaction.

@cd318, thank you for your comments.

and i hope you noticed i specified '1/2"' A-820. i have three A-820's and the 1/2" is pretty much as good as reproduced sound can get.

FYI; the Saskia model two is not a vintage product; my particular example was brand new in 2016. the Saskia was first built in 2007-2008. the builder is Win Tinnon, who’s moniker is Mosin over many audiophile forums.

and if you are a patient sort of person and don’t mind spending a few dollars (it’s not cheap but to my mind an excellent value in performance terms) Win could build one for you.

but no doubt that the Saskia is under the radar and you would have to have been paying attention to know about it. there was never any marketing or dealers.

i did know Win, and heard the Saskia two times at audio shows. it was always in systems that did not allow it to fully strut its stuff, but still it was easy to hear it was something very special. maybe the ultimate idler ever. until i got it into my room a month ago and let it loose i did not realize what it was capable of.

Dear @mikelavigne  : As always you share good news to the high end audiophiles. Congratulations for the " new kid " in your room/system.

Now, I would like to ask how it compares against your DD turntable that you listen regulary and that's very good performer.

Thank's in advance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @rauliruegas , thank you for the kind words my friend.

i do need to add the Saskia to my system page. i’ve not yet really directly compared it to my direct drive NVS. the Saskia is really something to hear, so we shall see how that plays out.

best regards,

Mike

Dear @mikelavigne  : Good, that will be really interesting not only for you but for some of us.
R.

Mike Lavigne, 
I have been scouring the internet looking up your turntable.. very impressive.  Maybe I missed it in a post, but I am curious which arm and cartridge you are using?

It’s so refreshing to see such a well designed table.  I look forward to hearing one. 

Yes, for what I read I would say this beast is definitely in the EMT R80/927 league.

 Very nice!
Norman

@normansizemore ,

thank you for the nice comments. at this point Saskia model two’s are quite scarce, and have not been shown at an audio show since 2015 i think.

currently i’m using the new Durand Tosca tone arm;
http://www.durand-tonearms.com/Tosca/thetosca.html

and the new Ortofon MC Anna Diamond cartridge;
http://www.ortofon.com/mc-anna-diamond-p-898

Fremer just did a rave review on this new Anna D cart. i used the original Anna for a number of years as my reference, and this new one is really something special.

this particular Saskia model two came with 7 arm boards. the previous owner had quite the tone arm collection.

i had two of the arm boards modified for my current tone arms, and received the one for the Durand Tosca. and am waiting for the one for my other arm, the Durand Telos Sapphire, to arrive back from the turntable designer.

my plan is trying both of these arms and a few others as my budget allows over time. the Saskia i think is a great alternative to my long term reference turntable, the Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive. i’m just in the beginning stages of getting a feel for the differences between these 2 top level tt’s.

btw; there is a thread on the Saskia model two on another forum with pictures and more information; here is a link in case you missed it in your search;

http://whatsbestforum.com/threads/saskia-model-two.28727/

I am preparing my EMT 927 to go back to it's homeland of Germany to spend some time at the Dusch family spa for a good tune up.  I initially planned to overhaul the unit myself but time and real EMT knowledge are lacking on my part compared to the experts.    

Hello i have an R80 and I like to sale it. If someone is interested contact me. Thanks 

Hi @thuchan .

Do you happen to have a speed deviation measurement device like a shaknspin?

I believe the magic number lies in the speed deviation %. That which Idlers rule above other drives with their high revving motors. Yes DD drives are also high torque and so can overcome stylus drag but they fail at that measurement also.

Not only is the 927 an idler drive (the best idler drive) but it also happens to have a 16" platter which gives it even more superior stability.

I may be wrong but I believe i’m answering the question you presented in this thread.

Think about it. Modern turntables of today come with tighter bearing tolerances. Much heavier platters. Vacuum suction. Air bearings. Magnetic bearings. High torque motors etc etc. Yet all fail at that test. Take a look at the measurements of all the last uber decks including Airforce Zero, Oma K3 and SAT in stereophile. Constant speed deviations of 0.25% / 0.30% / 0.35%. 

I would bet your 927 is going to show you a deviation of 1/10th of those numbers. My humble TD 124 shows me 0.04%. Timing is everything!

And yet the TD124, when compared to even the top level of pedestrian idler drives, like the Garrard 301 and the Lenco L75, comes in third in terms of sonics. to my ears in my system.  Moreover, I have liked many other belt-drive and DD turntables over the TD124, as well. So, either your numbers are questionable, or speed stability is not the paramount determinant of SQ, or we just hear differently. (This says nothing about the EMT 927, which I have not heard.)

Vintage turntables did have heavy platters, vacuum suction, air or magnetic bearings, and high torque motors, although no single one of them had all those supposed virtues (all of which come with some trade-offs.)

Well said, @lewm .

Dear @brunorivademar  : Speed stability is only one TT characteristic for a good quality performance but exist other parameters that have in between an intrinsecal realtionship.

 

You took an untrust information as one of your premises for your statements because in this Agon Analog forum the M.Fremer measurements are not what we all imagine. It's not a trust tool as he showed in the reviews and at the end in that discusiion where he participated he told us that he did those measurements " just for fun " and nothing more.

 

This is what MF posted:

 

" I am careful to state that these Platterspeed measurements are for “entertainment purposes only”. All test records are faulty as are all records to one degree or another...""

 

in that same thread you posted:

 

"" 

With regards to speed stability only 3 tables I believe take the crown.

Rockport Sirius III

Grand Prix Audio TTs

Wave Kinetics Reference   ""

 

Yes, speed stability is critical in any TT.

 

R.

R

@lewm Hi, keep in mind i’m only speaking in terms of measurements, not at all claiming my Thorens is better sounding or anything. I’m also well aware that the Garrards and Lencos are considered superior to the 124. All i’m saying is that with regards to that particular measurement idlers seem to have an advantage because of higher revving motors and thus less motor cogging. I would challenge any direct drive or belt drive turntable owner to share speed deviations and not many would be below +-0.20% Does it make any difference? I have no clue.

 

@rauliruegas I can assure you the gyroscope inside the Shaknspin Fremmer has been using for his reviews is pretty accurate. I believe he is being cautious because the numbers don’t look pretty.

 

Speed stability is not the only factor to sound quality, there are other important things too, we can all agree on that. But the only thing I can think the 927 has in favor besides the high torque is the much lower deviation from a perfect 33.33 at ALL times. We are talking micro second to microsecond timing. The bearings are nothing special. No vacuum hold down, exotic materials, airbearings. Nothing! :p

@brunorivademar , what we are concerned with is, in reality pitch stability. Speed stability in the best modern turntables is inconsequential in comparison to surface irregularities, warps and spindle hole eccentricity in records. There is no such thing as "microsecond timing" when it comes to vinyl playback. The medium is far more inaccurate than even mediocre playback devices. If you want "microsecond timing" throw your turntable away and stick with digital. 

As for the superiority of antique turntables? That is total BS perpetrated by people who sell these things for ridiculous money. Then the people who buy them regurgitate the same BS. Hobbyists use to buy these old table because they were at one time cheap and they were better than similarly priced new tables. Then the thing got a life of it's own in current mythology and the price got jacked along with the BS. I would not have a 927 if it were the last turntable on earth. If that was all I could get I'd sell my record collection to people like you and stick with hi res files. 

The model T is of serious historic significance but I would never want to drive one. If an idler turntable does not rumble much when it is new just give it a few hours and it will rumble like an express train. They will drive anyone with accurate bass down to 18 Hz CRAZY. 

@mijostyn Idler drives don’t rumble if you know how to make a few modifications. Btw did I ever say antique turntables are superior? Don’t put words in my mouth. Anyway you are being too passive agressive and I have no interest in engaging with you. Go get your self a cup of tea.

All one can say when Mijostyn pontificates on one of his gospel truths is “l disagree” and then say why. My highly tweaked Lenco does not produce audible rumble of any kind. But I can’t say why. Mijo has to open up his mind and listen to a well restored idler.

@brunorivademar , idler drives ALWAY rumble more than any other drive type. and if you had corrected subwoofers you would know that. That is one of the big reasons they virtually disappeared besides being more complicated and expensive to make. The only reason for idler drive was to be able to change speeds with a constant speed AC motor. There were no electronic drives/variable speed motors at the time. They persisted in the radio industry because you cannot slip cue a belt drive and there is no deep bass in radio. When direct drive came around the idler drives disappeared from the market until renovating old used tables became a thing and the mythology matured. It is worse than wearing someone else's used underwear. 

@lewm , you do not have corrected subwoofers and your Lenco does rumble more than any other drive type. If you think it sounds good wonderful, spin away. 

@mijostyn 

 

 idler drives ALWAY rumble more than any other drive type. and if you had corrected subwoofers you would know that. 

That may be true but there are many other aspects that contribute to TT performance. I refurbished a Garrard 301 for a second system - it blew away the Platine Verdier I was using as a second deck. It also blew away an SME 20. Better timing.

As an aside an associate has a Denon RCP53C idler. He is a professional DJ.

The Denon idler blows off the DD Technics he uses - both as a home audio front end and DJ'ing. It's start and stop time is phenomenal - the best I've seen from any deck - and I've seen a lot.

@brunorivademar 

All i’m saying is that with regards to that particular measurement idlers seem to have an advantage because of higher revving motors and thus less motor cogging. 

I have refurbished a few Garrards. I also have a vintage Exclusive broadcast idler.

My reference TT for the past 30 odd years is a thread drive with 26kg platter and motor that dwarfs most  TT's. The large AC motor is driven off of a precision sine and cosine wave generator and separate power amplifier. It is superior to the idlers by some margin.

On the other hand I had a Platine Verdier for a while as a second TT - the idlers easily surpass the Verdier. I swapped my reference TT motor drive over to the Verdier and voila - there's the problem - pee wee motor.

Personally I believe the idler "sound" is not the idler drive itself - in my opinion it is the big AC motor drive that is creating that "drive". The removal of a rubber belt also contributes, but I think the big AC motor is the key.

The weakness in the Thorens 124 is the rubber belt.

The problem with modern TT's is that nobody produces quality AC motors any more. Both my reference TT and the Exclusive idler have AC motors the size of a fist - and they are dead silent - even with my ear right next to the motor spindle.

Finally when AC motors self correct for any lag, they do so in a sinusoidal fashion - DC motors when speed corrected do so in a saw tooth -  in other words speed recovery on AC motors is smoother and more benign.

@dover , there are many reasons your Garrard sounds better than your other tables besides the drive. I respectfully disagree with that terminology. A turntable does not have timing or pace for that matter. The music has that. A turntable just spins at 33.33 rpm as quietly and accurately as possible. A great turntable has no sound of it's own. Cartridge may have a sound of their own and IMHO those are the least desirable cartridges. The tonearm can certainly influence the sound a cartridge manufactures but again the best arms have no sound of their own and hold the cartridge rigidly with only 2 degrees of freedom. Coloration added to the sound my be pleasing to some people but it is distortion non the less.

Dear @brunorivademar   : Fremmer has been using for his reviews is pretty accurate.

Wrrong. In the thread where M.Fremer posted what I posted to you and where you posted several gentlemans discussed about that " accuracy " and the final result was that is non-accurated and that's why Fremer posted what I send to you and not for the reason you said.

 

Do it you a favor and read the thread where you posted.

R.

@brunorivademar  : " I would challenge any direct drive or belt drive turntable owner to share speed deviations and not many would be below +-0.20% Does it make any difference? I  "

 

Wrong again. What you posted in that thread specified: 0% speed stability and was you who posted on those 3 DD TTs you mentioned there and that I shared here.

R.

@brunorivademar  : " But the only thing I can think the 927 has in favor besides the high torque is the much lower deviation from a perfect 33.33 at ALL times.."

 

In this thread are posted the 927 specs. Look for and you will read how bad measures that EMT.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : I agree almost on what you posted but that BS expression because some vintage TTs, evenm today, have excellent design merits that we can't just dimished.

 

R.

@dover You said the weakness of the 124 is the belt. I agree. In fact I was just wondering if I could build some kind of kevlar belt for it. Something more stable. Belts are definitely a problem.

Also interesting point you mentioned regarding the self correction of AC motors vs DC motors. 

@rauliruegas I've read Fremer's reviews. I can't speak for measurements using a vinyl disc but I do believe gyroscopes give pretty accurate readings and I stand by what I said.

The 3 turntables I mentioned are all direct drive but they use some kind of wizardy technology that I don't understant. They are the exception. And that's why they are the only ones to have those numbers published.

@mijostyn 

A turntable does not have timing or pace for that matter. 

Actually it does. Because as you said

A turntable just spins at 33.33 rpm as quietly and accurately as possible. A great turntable has no sound of it's own. 

But they don't. And there's the rub. Thats why they all sound different.

Instability in TT's will destroy the timing as recorded.

 

Such a broad statement...very subjective. What sounds good to you, may sound like crap to someone else. 

@dover, that is very true but in regards to the music they do not. The timing of the music is the purview of the artist. They do not play to account for speed instability of the playback device. Any deviation from a constant 33.33 is in error (assuming the lathe was not off). You are correct in that instability of the turntable can hurt the timing of the music if it is bad enough and older idler turntables are far less stable than good modern ones. Even if they are good when new wear on multiple parts will take it's toll. This may not be true of older DD table as they have fewer mechanical parts to wear. I have no idea what aging of electronic parts will do but all bearings will wear out eventually. 

@rauliruegas The most ground breaking turntable of all time was the AR XA. It broke the norm and introduced brand new technology that substantially improved playback. All turntables before it were compromised by their idler drive mechanisms which were needed to change speed with the lack of electronic motor control. By 1960 that technology had exhausted itself until they were dumped on the market for pennies on the dollar and audiophiles on a budget started tinkering around with them. My very first table was a used TD 124 and for a 13 year old audiophile it was brilliant. But, even with a good cleaning, lubing and change of idler wheels it still rumbled like a freight train. Subwoofers were still a years away so it did not matter as much. Since the XA we have direct drive tables, electronic management of belt drive tables, vacuum clamping and various new thrust mechanism, magnetic and air. If you can think of anything else please add on. 

@audioguy85 , subjective? that is a poor excuse. There is nothing or should be nothing subjective about a turntable. It's performance characteristics are easily measured. If it changes the sound it is because it has an unwelcomed resonance. This is not true of cartridges and tonearms. They can alter the sound in ways we can not easily measure. And as always most of what people think they hear has been psychologically modified. 

I wonder if the OP has listened to all the tables ever made by now...

Dear @brunorivademar  : You are biased to the EMT but you don't show yet facts that can probe what you " imagine ".

 

It's weird that the cutting lathe machines used DD servo units and not idler ones.  Do you know why?, if you have the rigth answer mainly be for you.

 

@mijostyn  Technics DD servo units were used in cutting lathe machines as the SP-02 that's similar ( with higher torque ) than the SP10MK3 even in some cutting lathe the SP10MK3 was used.

 

My favorite vintage DD is the Denon DP 100, I like that TT.

 

R.

Dear @brunorivademar  :  " These are the true facts ( not " illusions. ) measurements/specs in the 1957 designed 927:

speed unnaccuracy: +,- 0.15%, the swing tell us that the speed unaccuracy in reality is: 0.30% ( the worst I ever seen in any TT. ).

wow an flutter: +,- 0.05% with a swing of: 0.1% ( again the worst I ever seen in any TT. ).

signal to noise ratio: 58db ( again............. ).

as I posted: the 927 was designed for radio stations  ..."

 

Got it?

 

R.

@rauliruegas "

Techdas Airforce Zero speed inaccuracy -0.34% + 0.45%

0.79% speed inaccuracy

Oma k3 +-0.34% 0.68% innacuracy.

Much worse results.

Got it?

Can you see the measurements right in from of your eyes?

This are the true facts, not illusions

 

 

@brunorivademar  : It's you whom just ignore that MF reviews measurements are totally non-accurated and he accepted when say " only for entertaionment " and this posted here not on the reviews.

 

R.

@mijostyn subjective, poor excuse? How? Most everything in audio is "subjective". What you hear is not what someone else may hear, or even like or appreciate. Hence, the reason there is so many turntables, speakers, amps, headphones, etc.....some like direct drive, some prefer belt drive, some like a moving coil, others prefer moving magnet. There are way to many variables...​​​​​​

@brunorivademar  : Who cares about TechDas/Micro Seiki or the OMA?

 

Similar radio station vintage tonearms where all superior to the 927 , examples: 

SP10MK2:  0.001%        DP100:  0.002%

Those were designed ( as the 927 ) for radio station play.

 

The SP10MK3 was designed for home and some radio stations used, Denon had two models one for radio station and one for home use: DP-100 and DP-100M and I think exist a third DP100 for RS.

 

Do it a self favor and don't put your bullets in the 927 because you always will lost in any dialogue on that specific regards.

 

R.

@audioguy85 , I suppose the looks are subjective. If anything else is subjective it is a bad turntable.

@brunorivademar, When you have records with uneven surfaces and eccentric spindle hole those speed specs mean saw dust. Records are never going to be that accurate. Signal to noise ration is MUCH more important. Noise you can hear and when it comes to rumble wastes amplifier power and increases distortion. 

@rauliruegas , that is when Denon made great stuff although the arm on the  DP-100M was a stretch to far. The armless version was the one to get. We use to stick Infinity Black Widows on them. Shure V-15 heaven. 

When does a turntable, tonearm, or cartridge cross the time line between "modern" and "vintage"? Mijostyn’s beloved Cosmos turntable is basically the same as a Star Sapphire sold by SOTA in the late 1980s, and by his own admission, SOTA copied the AR XA (mid-1960s) in its essence. I would not deny that the Cosmos is improved over its ancestral TTs, but so too are "vintage" idler and direct-drive turntables that most of us are using in the here and now, in the sense that most of us using "vintage" designs have added new and better plinths, bearing assemblies, motor control systems, etc. The Eclipse system on the Cosmos or optional on any other "modern" SOTA turntable is identical in concept and operation to the Phoenix Engineering speed controller I use on my Lenco (which apparently rumbles despite a massive upgraded bearing and a heavily damped platter but I can’t hear it because my woofers are not 15 inches in diameter times two per channel, and I don’t boost the bass response by 10 or more db, as does Mijostyn). Methinks Mijo read "The Emporer's New Clothes" once too many times as a kid.

May have posted this one earlier 

 

 Good Listening 

 

Peter

My first cousin who stays in the same city as me had a EMT 927, Jean Nantais Reference Lenco Mk2 and Dr.Feickert Firebird at the same time.

Phonostage: EMT JPA66 Mk2

Speakers: ATC SCM 100ASL active

Cartridges: EMT JSD Platinum, Phasemation PP-2000

 

On this setup, the Lenco is clearly superior to Feickert Firebird. Equal in resolution, and better in terms of dynamics and pitch stability, and more life to music. And the Feickert is a really good $10k turntable. A very well engineered and good sounding unit. I will highly recommend it to anyone considering a modern TT under 10k. Just don’t tell me idler can’t sound tops.

 

The 927 is just hilariously ahead of all this. Way way way more resolution and dynamics. It is a proper full range, accurate, limitless sound. I don’t know which TT can better it, yet. May be a Kondo Ginga? Cousin has just bought a Micro Seki SX-8000. Lets see if that can measure up to the 927.

And yea i have personally owned the Technics SP-10 MK2 and Mk3. Good but, please! It is not even close to 927. The Mk3 is in the league of a nicely done Lenco but with higher resolution and a drier sound. Mk2, one step below. The humble EMT 938 beats Mk2 easily and approaches the Mk3 dangerously close. Infact for all those who love DD, you owe it to yourself to get a fully serviced 938 and see if the Technics is still in your rear view mirror.

 

By the way, i don’t like DD and I am not a EMT guy but i have had all these TTs in my own system.

Dear @pani  :  I'm sure that's that is what you like it but sorry due that with that " terrible " all tube phono stage you can't be aware of the " errors "  true quality performance of any TT. Yes, I listened that EMT several times.

 

Now the 927 was designed with the full advise of Broadcasting Technique Institute to EMT and was designed for transcription recordings ( 16" ) used in those old times and as other broadcasting TT designs was builded to run 24/7/365.

I don't know if you listened with the same tonearm/cartridge and if was with the original EMT tonearm then I really question seriously your gradation of those TTs. because the original EMT is way resonant tonearm.

 

R.

Dear @lewm  : What's the function of a TT? spinsaccurately the LP to listen it. From this premise vintage and today units are the same. Your post to mijo makes no sense to me but now please let all of us to know what is your perfect TT today against today units or vintage ones including the 927. Which main differences for the better?

 

R. 

If my post makes no "sense", read it again. Or if you want to query me, please ask a specific question about my post; I will be happy to try to respond.

Now you ask me what do I think is the "perfect" TT, which was not the central subject of my post. My opinion is there is no perfect TT, today or any day. There are many very good TTs, good enough to make this argument moot. Mike Lavigne has a wider and deeper experience of the most expensive TTs ever sold both now and in the past than any of us peons, and even he is loathe to say which is "best" let alone "perfect" (your word). I think it’s a bad question, to begin with.

Thuchan, who started this thread 11 pages ago, is a wealthy man. He also resides in close proximity to the best EMT repair facility in the world, probably with access to many OEM parts that the rest of us could not acquire, even if we owned a 927 and had the money for a cost no object restoration. If the 927 is capable of outperforming every other TT, in a manner that would convince all of us, then I can imagine that Thuchan owns that 927, just because of his resources. I can’t sit where I am and say that his 927 does not "outperform" anything I ever heard; I haven’t even ever heard ANY 927, let alone a perfected one. But I feel no jealousy or resentment; I am happy for Thuchan if his 927 is as good as he thinks it is.  Meantime, I am happy with what I have and don't feel driven to replace what I own.

Pani, Can you try to put into words what you heard from the 927 that was so superior to any of the other TTs with which you compared it?  You seem at one go to be saying that the 927 "beat" the Technics and a Lenco but that those are turntables you don't particularly like.  (I am not sure what you prefer these days.) Nor would anyone say that those are TTs of the very highest most esoteric rank, with which one would want to compare the 927 in order to confer the title of "world's best".

@lewm : Maybe I can't explain very well but:

 

" When does a turntable, tonearm, or cartridge cross the time line between "modern" and "vintage"?  "

 

The main premise I posted does not changed today so with foundation of that premise that line just doesnot exist.

 

R.

We agree, Raul. That is what I was trying to say.  There is basically "nothing new under the sun" when it comes to turntables, although our ideas about what constitutes optimal design and construction have evolved or become more sophisticated over decades, as the acceptable cost for audio systems has expanded and as there has been more time for trial and error experiments.  For one example, the unipivot was once a revolutionary idea in tonearm design. Not today.