As a card-carrying male I agree with Elizabeth, I'm happy to be considered a stereotype: Football, fast cars, big tits, curvy ass babes, big stereos Amen!! Sub sonic bass? Not my thing, I'm all about an accurate/holographic mid-range for the most part. Get the vocals right and most other things fall into place. |
Some rooms just can accommodate low bass, and when presented with it, don't know what to do with it. |
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How else to listen to your Yello collection? |
"How else to listen to your Yello collection?"
Oh Yeah!! |
Elizabeth
Football, fast cars, big tits, curvy ass babes, big stereos, "hard' rocking bass
This is what this all about. I dont care what anyone says, Its a little of showing off to ourselves more than anyone. Sure its an awesome hobby but I dont care how into SET amps you are we all look at the Mcintosh gear with the green lights and go thats purty. I personally like big black "ugly" boxes that I think are beautiful, Luckily I have still been able to keep "Curvy ass babes with big tits" around, they always want to change everything when they move in but I always stand my ground, never mind I once settled on a Pathos integrated, She wanted me to get the 3 watt shangling CD Reciever and use it by itself WITH 3 WATTS!!! I guess I won and lost that battle (She eventually moved out)
As far as the lowest octave, Cmon general question for all of you.
How many of you actually got into this in the beginning the very begining. You didnt hear airy and transparent highs and glorious midrange that got you in when you were a kid. It was the bass right. Playing your music LOUD rocking out.
Who can say they honestly didnt go wow, a speaker can do that, no freakin way!!! |
I just want to emulate my first car system that had 2 12's in a tiny saturn, Later a competition 15" sub where it sounds good (I thought it sounded good back then) |
Er, what I meant to post was;"Some rooms just can'T accomodate low bass, ...." |
"How else to listen to your yello collection?"
Why, mello of course. |
I really can't hear the lowest notes of an organ recording, but I sure as hell can feel them in my stomach. That makes it real. |
My experience is a limited one, but here it is: I had a pair of Kef Reference IIIs for several years, and loved them; I think the floor on them is something like 40 hz. Very fine controlled bass. Then I got a pair of von Schweikert VR4 gen iiis., which have a floor of 20 hz. What I noticed was, as Tvad suggests, something nearly physical, in particular when listening to, say, the acoustic bass of Arild Anderson: it's the thud under the low notes that I really heard--or felt--for the first time. Then there is the orchestral/choral music of Arvo Part. In any case, I can't be sure whether it was the 20hz that made the difference, the speaker design apart from the 20hz floor), or the different flavor of the two speakers from 40hz and higher. But the vrs broadened the lower spectrum, and I'm speaking as someone who doesn't go in for cranked up bass that smears everything into a mess. |
As far as the lowest octave, Cmon general question for all of you.
How many of you actually got into this in the beginning the very begining. You didnt hear airy and transparent highs and glorious midrange that got you in when you were a kid. It was the bass right. Playing your music LOUD rocking out.
Who can say they honestly didnt go wow, a speaker can do that, no freakin way!!! I can honestly say that what I believe you are describing here did not impress me as a kid, and I was not interested in speakers that had copious distorted bass, vs those that offered some sense of clarity, honesty and what I now would call musicality (though back then I would have said they just sound more 'real'). The first time I recall being really wowed by a speaker was a pair of Quad 57's which were hardly capable of the bass we're talking about here. So I guess I'm a freak. |
I cared more about a clear high end when I started and when I was younger with younger ears.
My first good speakers used Heil Air Motion Transformers to that end for better or for worse.
I realized the importance of a quality and complete low end to me as well only within say the last 5-10 years or so. |
Why the obsession? Everything discussed in this forum is about obsession.
I like deep, but not too deep bass. In fact I like to have a upward tilt in frequency response below 40Hz. It sounds good to me. But what I have discovered from looking at countless spectrograms of popular music recordings is that there really isn't that much information below about 40-60Hz. As long as the harmonics are present, the ear/brain fills in the "missing" fundamental. However, if the recording actually has true low frequency content, then I like to hear it.
My system goes down to 25Hz and then steeply drops off. Are some people saying that there's musical info below 20Hz?
One last point, humans had not evolved when dinosaurs existed. Human hearing is not at all sensitive to low frequencies, witness the Fletcher-Munson curves. Humans are most sensitive to upper midrange sounds. Think about it. |
In my glance, I noticed that nobody mention SPL levels. Just because a speaker can go down to 30hz, does not mean it can do so with any authority or cleanly at listening levels. I can build a 5 1/4" subwoofer that will go down to 20hz, but it will only do it at 60dbs or so. To get 100 dbs at 40hz takes at least a single 12" subwoofer with pretty good excursion.
Many high end speakers at decent volume levels will play the 2nd order harmonic nearly as loud as the first. So often what people mistake as hearing as 30hz bass is the 60hz harmonic. In most acoustic music there isn't a lot of bass below 40hz,but you do get ambience from the sub bass of the room when you have speaker that reproduce it.
As far as obsessed, you haven't seen anything. Go over to the AVS forums and see what those nutballs are doing. Most want to be able to produce 115dbs at 20hz and some are getting 120dbs at 10hz. They are now pushing below the 10hz level, some as low as 5-6hz. Whatever you do over there, don't mention anything about amps sounding different or cables, you will get piled on. |
I see the value in having clean bass down to 20hz, and I
agree that much of the value comes from the sense of venue
that those very low frequencies can provide, and if could
have it without tradeoffs that would be great, but there are
tradeoffs indeed and Larryi articulated them very well. It
took me a long time to break away from the obsession and
accept that in many ways the Merlin VSMs with a brick wall
at 28hz and a sharp drop off at 32hz were more musically
satisfying that my previous speakers that were +/-3db at
20Hz. I would take that extra bass if I would not loose that
Merlin midrange and resolution and the ability to run with a
relatively low-power OTL, but I have not found a speaker
like that. The benefits of deep bass are real, but so are
the liabilities that come along with speakers that can do
the deep bass thing. Perhaps with some price-no-object gear
you can have it all, but at relatively real world prices I
would seek to compromise some of that deep bass for other
values. The fact that I listen to acoustic jazz 90% of the
time I'm sure has something to do with that perspective. |
The reason most hifi home audio gear has almost always been spec'ed from 20hz-20000khz is because that covers the useful range in the audio spectrum that people can generally hear.
Individual hearing ability varies though. Many cannot hear this full range and some may be able to hear even more, but these are fairly rare and extreme outlier cases.
Many recordings have little or no content towards the extremes. Some good ones do though.
Put the common limits of human ears and the recordings played together and the cases where a low end of consequence exists, can be heard and the listener actually cares are relatively few.
If you care, in general you will pay a premium of some sort generally to enable it in a home system in a quality manner that does not negatively impact all the other good stuff. |
Onhwy61,
I think Mapman's quote re:T-Rex was illustrative. My point was that, if you hear an elephant or hippo in the 'hood, it would be a good idea to go the other way - as these animals will cause damage to your person. Rhinos, not so much.
If "predator" was too narrow a noun, mea culpa. In any event, I was just speculating on the origins of a phenomenon that many report.
Marty |
i believe the lower the frequencies go in a loudspeaker, providing it does it cleanly w/out distortion, adds body and foundation to all music. frequencies have fundamentals that are lower then the frequency itself.
you mentioned your speakers go down to 28 htz, at how many db's down? distortion and sound pressure levels play a role in low frequencies. for example: my speakers with a 2.5 watt electric input will generate 100db sound pressure level at 4 ft. second harmonic distortion at 40htz 0.5%. |
A friend plays the pipe organ, I often attend his practice sessions. No reproduction even come close to the power of such an instrument, however-the organ produces enormous amounts of noise. There is the air rushing through the pipes, the sounds of the mechanical opening and closing of swell doors,not to mention the opening and closing of valves, the operation of compressors.....
An orchestra on stage is also the venue of extraneous noises. At a concert we ignore these noises, yet they can make up an important part of the experience we remember. Until recent years I did not realize how many of the noises were recorded and reproducible on modern equipment. Sometimes they add a great deal to the sense of realism- sometimes not. Those of us fortunate enough to not have to worry about our neighbors hearing our systems have a real advantage in this area. |
Several posts up I think someone mentioned that larger drivers are not as effecient as smaller drivers which make them require a much larger amp.
I have always thought that larger speakers are more effecient, like compare a JL 8w7 at 82.7db to a JL 13w7 at 86.3db
Or a Exodus Audio 12in sub at 85.1db vs their 21in driver at 89.6db......
Seems like the days of effecient drivers are over
The larger drivers do have a bit more mass to get moving however they also do not have nearly as far to travel to reproduce the same sound of the smaller driver. |
Just saw this interesting thread. Mechan, you are basically correct, as are Elizabeth and Shadorne (who I must agree with in particular - what way too many audiophiles call "deep bass" is actually distortion). The vast majority of music happens within what audiophiles refer to as the "midrange." Almost none of it, especially if we are talking acoustic instruments, happens below 40Hz. That said, Mapman and Tvad are also correct about the physical impact of an extremely low bass tone, for instance the organ at the opening of Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra. In a great concert hall, this will have a very physical impact - even up in the nosebleed seats, in a hall with really good bass response. However, this experience cannot be replicated in a home system, no matter how good it is, or how low the bass goes - unless you happen to live in the concert hall. You have to buy a ticket to experience that kind of truly deep bass. |
Great thread! I have heard deep bass live but not well done with home systems. The bass I have heard in home systems has been somewhat boomy and difficult to integrate. Also, the price for great home bass has always seemed prohibitive and difficult to crowd into a shared living room(WAF)and difficult to tune in.
That said, what drew me to audio was crystal clear mids and highs... and the stand up bass of Christian McBride and others and the kettle drum of Hotel California and a great woody cello of Bach's solo sonatas.
I have found that for me a 40-45 hz speaker like the Triangle Celius with a tubed amp can do great highs and mids and, for me, satisfying lows. I do turn up the volume if I want to hear the kettle drum, however. The novelty of gut thumping bass has worn off for me as I have gotten older (62). The pain of turning on and off a sub has become less interesting as well. (Thanks, Elizabeth). I may have become more of a romantic and will need to turn in my guy credentials but have come to love the mid and high registers of solo piano and violin.
I am satisfied for now. That could change but it seems now like too much trouble to try to reproduce the low end... and I have more money to buy good music and attend symphonies and live performances. I suppose it becomes more about contentment.
NRCHY once said here in 04/02/2005 "Perfect sound is not attainable. Many have written long posts on whether live music is a good objective standard. In my opinion it is not. The only time a system will sound great is when the owner/listener has determined to be content. The concept of contentment is a little esoteric or nebulous to many people. Contentment is a choice and not the result of a great system. People may choose an ideal they can never obtain while ignoring contentment which everyone can possess. The same concept applies to many facets of life... choosing an ideal not obtainable while ignoring contentment." ( Expensive cars, deep bass, relationships, physical attributes, and all the other things that have been listed.).
John |
I disagree with Larryi, The trade off is what you hear without deep bass not what you hear with deep bass. Sure, you might hear some interesting detail in the mids and highs when the system is lacking deep bass, but is it right?
HiFi means reproducing sound as near to the original sound as possible. It does not mean reproducing sound without bass. |
I'm sure sound without bass would not be very enjoyable, not sure that was Larryi's recommendation - certainly a speaker that produces clean bass down to 35- 40hz (-2db) is sufficient to reproduce "sound with bass", in fact there are many world-class speakers (many British)that do just that and are rightly considered "HiFi" and ideal for most domestic-sized rooms. |
Pressurization in lowest octave is what your trying to achieve. Once experienced in your system its hard to enjoy one that doesn't pressure lock. Most all do not and most subwoofers will not pressurize your listening space. One needs massive bass systems multiple subs or the best way massive bass horns. But this pressure is what brings excitement gestalt to your system can stand the hairs up on your neck. think about it like this is a stampede produces lots of infra sound as do earthquakes and trains would these sound or feel as impressive if limited to 40hz? |
Not that I'm saying he's wrong, or for that matter that he's correct, but for those that might not know, JohnK is a manufacturer of bass horns. |
Could just say I'm honest. Not like folks buy giant bass horns from wee forum posts, bass horn owners have to be partly crazy but dedicated. |
It is commonly said that a large driver, say 15", is "slow" because its cone is so heavy. Nonsense! My 15" drivers have huge magnets and 4" voice coils, and the strength of that "motor" greatly exceeds the effect of increased cone mass. |
No slow woofers, I never experienced this. In any woofer up to 31.5in in size. The slow woofer line has been passed about and is BS. |
Martykl, not referring to you earlier. Someone else linked T. Rex foot falls and human hearing. BTW, I think your 1/21 post is very accurate. |
However, this experience cannot be replicated in a home system, no matter how good it is, or how low the bass goes - unless you happen to live in the concert hall. You have to buy a ticket to experience that kind of truly deep bass.
Learsfool That's always been my way of thinking about bass. Never been much of a sub fan even when I had my Spendor Classic Series speakers which aren't known for bass, but their mid-range. My current speakers go lower and the bass is more extended and very satisfying for home listening. To me trying to get bass to sound like it does in a well designed concert hall is a bit like a dog chasing it's tail. I'm sure it can be done, but at what cost? If I need to hear more bass I'll go to a concert. |
It took me years to achieve it, but now my best recipe or great bass for reasonable cost are newer OHM series 3 or X000 series Walsh speakers driven by a good 500w/ch Icepower AMP. MIT networked ICs seem to work well in this combo.
Set this up well and use decent gear around it and you have some mighty tasty and hard to fault bass that hangs with the best.
And the rest is right up there as well. |
The ability to fully and faithfully reproduce the lowest octave adds considerable realism to music reproduction.
However, I do not think it is best accomplished by a "full-range speaker." This is expensive, and leads to compromises in other areas of the speaker's design.
Reproduction of the bottom octave is what good subwoofers are for -- as in my Velodyne DD-18. |
There is 40hz bass and then there is 40hz ATC active 100's bass. Real 40hz isn't all that bad.
Elizabeth, LOL and then there was the woman on Jeopardy who was shown a picture of a bird and asked "What is a Booby?" Well if she doesn't know, then who would? |
adding on to Dan_ed's post, from what i could figure out the fundamental at 40 Hz has a subharmonic at 20 Hz as well as overtones at 80 /160. it is a combination of all of these which give the flesh/timbre to the tone.
Any graphic equalizer using a digital out (eg i used a DEQ2496) shows a surprising amount of music in the 20-25hz region in many peices. the most surprising revelation has been "GrandMas hands" by Livingston Taylor. supposed to be an Acapella but has a consistent 20-25 hz bass content which is not heard in anything but a fullranger OR with subs and once you hear it that way can never ever listen to it without that bass fabric! |
Where are people getting this sub-harmonic talk. Yes, string instruments can produce sub-harmonic sounds, but it is not a commonly used technique and it's virtually never written into compositions. Harmonic overtones are always present in acoustic music, sub-harmonics are not.
"Grandma's Hands" was recorded on a suspended wooden floor which is being excited by the foot tapping of the singers. It's a common effect in recorded gospel music. It's debatable if those sounds are part of the performance or are they in the class of falling mic stands, A/C rush, passing subways, page turning and fret scrapping, in other word noise. Although on tunes like the Supremes "Where Did Our Love Go" the floor effect is prominently featured as part of the rhythm track. |
Another thought with a full range speaker is that if the speaker is capable of reproducing extrememly low tones (the same goes for the extreme high tones as well) then the vast majority of music doesn't require the speakers to work at the max capacity. I think this is applicable to just about all audio equipment. You wouldn't want an amplifier to be driven maxed out. This would only apply to a subwoofer in the sense that it can reduce the low frequency requirements on the mains. Having a tweeter than goes well above the audible frequency range just allows a better reproduction in the range that you can hear. |
"Having a tweeter than goes well above the audible frequency range just allows a better reproduction in the range that you can hear"
Not necessarily - it might distort more at few kHz range. |
Of course, having the ability to deliver very deep and powerful bass is a big advantage. I just think that, given the usual constraints of size, power requirement, and BIG dollars, there are tradeoffs involved. There are tradeoffs for ANY aspect of speaker performance. The choices one wants to live with depends on taste, type of music, etc.
For example, unless one is talking about a very well engineered active biamp or triamped system, trying to achieve really deep bass using low-powered tube amplification is extremely impractical (look at some of the as-big-as-a-room bass horns of some Japanese systems). But, if you have heard what a really good SET amp can do, trading off some bass capability might be your preference; it is a matter of taste.
I actually have speakers capable of reasonably deep and powerful bass (it has two 12" drivers per channel), but, my chosen amp really cannot deliver room shaking volume. What this combination offers is doing almost everything else right at a comfortable volume level. It is a big system, with a "big" sound, just not a super loud system. I don't use it for home theater, so I don't need things to shake when it plays.
I have heard many speaker systems with full range bass capability (e.g., Wilson MAXX 3), and certainly they do deliver in that respect, but, I have heard few that, on balance, I would prefer over what I have (and those were also not particularly big in terms of bass performance). |
Can't say for others but I "get" the harmonic content from mathematics. You guys are all free to believe what you want and setup your systems any way you see fit. |
So Dan_Ed, how about an explanation of your mathematically derived harmonic content? |
A device called a "Subharmonic Synthesizer" can be used to create tones which are not there but which "ought to be" based on what is there. It can sound better than trying to record real tones in the extreme low range. |
:-) Hook up a spectrum analyzer. It would probably shock you to think that there is sometimes bass content in some cymbal whacks. |
"Hook up a spectrum analyzer."
Good idea!
I had one (Audio Control I think?) years ago. The spectrum analyzer was a display mode on the equalizer as I recall. It is quite educational to see what is really in the sounds you hear frequency-wise, both coming over the wire and as detected in room using a microphone! |
Mapman, that kind of sa probably uses frequency bins but may help show what is going on. The issue people forget is that we're not dealing with simple sinusoid signals. A single note from a musical instrument is a very complex sinusoid. That is how the same note from a sax and from a trumpet sound different, or at least they should or our system is really crap. |
Dan,
Yes, the resolution of the analyzer I used was limited, but you still got a decent picture of how the music was distributed across the audible frequency spectrum, so that was educational albeit an approximation that does not relate all the details
I'm sure there are some good analyzers out there these days if one is interested, maybe more on the professional gear side. |
I have learned a lot from my Behringer DEQ2496 which has a spectrum analizer function, 61 frequency bands, 1/3 octave. The internal wide bandwidth noise signal is a good representation of music, but you can also look at externally generated signals like a sine sweep.
And, after you understand your problem you can fix it with the EQ function. $350 including mic. What a deal! |
Excellent comments and observations!
My experience(s) grew me into the desire for 20hz to 30hz bass. I use Merlin TSM-mme stand mount speakers. They are amazingly musical and love the sound. The bass is very good but not so deep (mid 40's in my room).
I purchased JL fathom subwoofers and very carefully adjusted them and blended them with the Merlins. I much perfer the full deep bass. On Ray Browns Moonlight Serenade I could hear all the notes pleasingly. But, with the JL's I can hear and feel the low 'E' just vibrating away.
I also listen to pipe organ works and enjoy the subwoofers in the system. I am convinced I need and desire bass to about 20hz. |
FWIW, I'll share my experience on this.
I once heard a demo at a local shop. It was a recording of an acoustic guitar. Nothing else. Don't remember exactly what speakers I was listening to. I listened for a while, it sounded very nice. The dealer then said," I'm going to switch things up a bit and let you listen to the same recording, same speakers, same amp. Tell me what you think". I listened again, wow! It sounded more real, deeper soundstage, more immediate, etc. Like the notes were floating out there instead of coming from the speakers. I asked if he switched cd players? "Nope", he said, "I turned on the REL sub in the corner over there".
There's definitely information that we process, even if we don't exactly "hear" it. |
