Why Power Cables Affect Sound
maritime51"You want me banned? (Mods, that’s fine by me.)" Only if you refuse to follow the rules and deny others they’re say consistent with the OP’s request and definition of this thread and if having you banned is fine with you than I say what are we waiting for good riddance! |
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I suspect that I am one of the few if not the only person in this discussion that has actually designed and manufactured electrical power generators used with sophisticated electronics. I have been asked by several people to write a white paper on the subject of power transmission as related to HIFI, because the misinformation and counterfeit issues in regard to power cords is enormous. If you polled the engineers here, I suspect you would get a different opinion from each one. Good power cords can make a difference. However, there is another question that needs to be considered. Are you capable of hearing the difference? The only way you can answer this question is with a hearing test and most people will not bother with finding out the truth about there hearing. The next question is will a better power cord make a difference with your equipment? Not every piece of equipment will benefit from a power cord upgrade. Many people ask me questions regarding the design of power cords and then I ask if they are engineers or have a really strong electronics background. Usually the answer they don't have the background to understand. So if you don't know what power is, how do I explain power cord and connector design? I usually just tell people I have a can of "pink fairy dust". Here are some tips: If you buy used pcs, they may be counterfeit. Use products from a reputable manufacturer; materials, high purity copper is a start with quality connectors. Limited bandwidth power cords will help keep the total system noise level down. Pcs with high surge current capability will improve the power supply surge capability resulting in better system performance. If you are on the US North East power grid consider a power conditioner. If you are on the US North East power grid change your receptacles regularly. Consult an electrician, have one changed, then take a hammer to it and check the condition of the contact surfaces on the receptacle. You may find a surprise. |
Thank goodness I live in the South West. That tidbit of info on the effects due to location and/or geography goes a long way to explain why some benefit from power conditioning and some don't, and why some don't hear the benefits after hearing of those who do. Another onion layer removed, only to reveal yet another. 🤔 All the best, Nonoise |
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@soundermn Glad someone else actually read the Caelin Gabriel/Shunyata comments. Pleased they were helpful to you. Thanks for letting me know. You are absolutely right, he is in business to sell wire so his commentary should be viewed with a certain skepticism BUT when one of his products (and at the low end of the price range) delivers improved sonics, it lends credibility to his position. When improved sonics attend power cables from a third party source, as in your experience, there's even more reason to think he might know what he's talking about ;-) |
@dseltz The problem with a regenerator will be its’ power capacity. It may work well for smaller loads like preamps but will likely suffer as many problems with larger loads. A regenerator needs to act as an ideal voltage source, meaning near zero output impedance, which means it would show no change in the voltage as currents are generated at its’ output. They are unlikely to be anywhere near as good as a decent AC line. This is why a good AC line conditioner may be more beneficial. Whatever is used should minimally restrict current delivery and should be effective at filtering/cleaning up noise on the AC line. |
@yang_hong |
Thanks for the reply. I myself definitely not into AC cables, but I'm really curious what could be the reason, if there is any, that AC cables can make audible sonic differences. My highschool physics keeps telling me that's impossible, but again I welcome the opportunity to be educated on the science I don't know. |
No EE here, but my trial-and-error experience has shown me that a large isolation transformer helps deliver a quality energy supply, and then differences in AC cords have been easily heard. For a larger system, a 240V/120V transformer puts things in a different league. I suspect many of you don't hear enough of a difference between cords because your noisy power supply cannot be improved enough with that last six feet of high-purity copper. While an isolation transformer does have a common ground between the windings, I have never heard any switching noise or dropout in my house when major appliances come on---rock solid. A big plus with the 240V/120V is it originates from both service bus bars and is always in phase compared to what may occur using multiple circuits. I've built two levels of AC cords, and I know the improvements. |
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I simply don't get it. One can easily hear the differences in better power cords and one needn't spend a lot. That, and you can simply try it for yourself, unless you have a tin ear then all bets are off. That, and your life as an audiophile just became a whole lot easier and cheaper. Best Buy here I come! All the best, Nonoise |
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It's interesting to see the tide turning 2019 style. As more Tunable sights pop up around the world the "Tune" is becoming front and center again. I believe these will be the new reference points for variable audio as it was in the past. This time around we have the internet available to us to give more of a real time account. There are going to be a few forums that we will use to promote the variables, hoping Agon is one of them because of the deep roots that Agon has historically. Four years ago (maybe longer) we offered our Tunable Room (TuneLand Vegas) as a welcoming testing sight for any who wish to either come listen or bring their own test equipment. Listeners did come, conclusions were made and we all went back to listening with big smiles. There were no heated discussions needed at all once the demos happened. We did the same thing in Pontiac Michigan and Nashville years ago, and the original "TuneVilla" also welcomed listeners and techs from around the world. Dr Robert Barstow from SUNY was so impressed (1990's) he explored the possibility of a dedicated wing at SUNY for tuning R&D. Fact is, as the questions get answered and the proof is experienced in real time, those who are what are called here on this forum "naysayers" never show up to any of the events. Every year testing is done in real time and the electronic industry continues to move forward and the opportunities are all around for the curious. Will this forum become a place of proof seekers beyond angry audio trolls? Maybe, but I think the telling part are the number of posts that end up being deleted. I have said the Mods have been extraordinary on this thread and others. For myself this also represents a maturing of the pages. As I put in more Tunable Rooms my offer will remain for those who wish to do their tests and move from talking to walking. Michael Green |
"I don’t understand why people think that very expensive, high end audio gear should be the most prone to the most superfluous variables." kosst Could be because cables and cords leading into and out of that high-end gear cannot perform up to the standard of that gear. From my Audio Research Ref 210 owner’s manual, 2006: IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections. Audio Research cannot emphasize enough the use of high-quality cords and wire, and I consider their advice of the highest authority. I have always taken that as audio canon. All of you naysayers lost this argument before you started it, and you’ve been losing it as long as you have been making it, but you will probably continue, misinformed as before. |
kosst_amojan"It is YOU who presumes to dictate rules, who takes offense at anything that challenges your superstitious beliefs in hokey snake oil, who demands your free speech go unchallenged as if you're writing in your personal diary instead of a public forum. You're repugnant." Please ask your mommy to change your diapers because there is either a load in there or a load in your brain. |
djones51"So ARC sells good amps and tosses in a cable as an afterthought. Great marketing strategy. " ARC is a very successful, long standing, time honored manufacturer of components for use in music reproduction systems so it is likely, probable, and nearly certain they they know more about marketing, electronics, and cables than you do. |
The point is not me but why would ARC who sells world class amps toss in a power cord that isn’t going to make me go WOW when I hook it into my system. Instead I say , Blah, I need a power cord these chintzes gave me a lousy cord fit for a coffee pot. Speaking of coffee pots can I rig one of these cords to my Bunn for more robust flavored coffee? |
I just don’t understand , I have a McIntosh that came with cord so thick and heavy I have it supported because it will slightly sag at the amp connection. Perhaps all amp manufacturer’s don’t supply good quality cords but I would think a good reputable one would or they would supply no cord and recommend which ones work best. Sorry for the disruption I won't be a bother and leave, just makes no sense to me. |
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@tom1000
Exactly! This is the issue that so often goes unheeded in audiophile circles. We can measure X-rays...but you can't perceive X-rays. We can measure portions of the electromagnetic spectrum far beyond human perception, we can measure sound frequencies far beyond what human's can perceive, and on and on. The fact that something is measurable by instruments DOES NOT automatically entail it will affect sound in a way audible to the human ear. If you measure various wires, even different spools of the same wire, you can get slight deviations in the measurements. In of itself that DOES NOT entail we can hear those deviations. That's a different question which is answered by controlled listening tests, to understand the capabilities of human perception. And given the problem that if you see something change you can think you hear a sonic change, it's best to control for that variable. This is why, for instance, in a standard hearing test you are blinded to any visual cue as whether a tone is being played - you have to go strictly on whether you can actually hear it. It's how they find dips in your hearing, or in tests for how high frequency you hear, you won't be given a visual cue that a tone is being played. Say the average middle aged audiophile came out of a controlled hearing test whose hearing leveled off at 14 khz. If that audiophile protested: "I don't care if your test says I can't hear over 14 khz - perception is subjective and I can tell you I CAN hear over 14 khz!"...there would be no reason whatsoever to take him seriously. And yet, we get essentially this complaint over and over in the audiophile domain. Controlled listening tests are dismissed as if the idea doesn't even matter, and whatever you think you hear settles the matter. That's FINE for anyone to take that route in buying whatever they want.But it's not good if you actually want to get to the truth of what is going on, nor is it a firm basis on which to make claims about the audibility of X or Y cable or wire. It becomes like a form of faith in the audiophile world. Note that a common comment made against those who support or use blind testing is "it's too bad you feel you can't TRUST your hearing, as we do." So it's turned in to a sort of character fault, similar to the religious idea "if you require more rigorous evidence, that's a character fault showing you don't have FAITH." There is a paradigm that can be unbridgeable between those who won't shake their faith in their inviolable perceptual abilities and those who recognize the reasons for controlling variables. Fortunately there is a spectrum of attitudes and not everyone is so intransigent and can consider the reasons for better test procedures. The only way you can answer this question is with a hearing test and most people will not bother with finding out the truth about there hearing. Yes, and if one is really pursuing the "truth" of the matter, it makes sense to be rigorous in that search, and not just ignore obvious variables of human bias that can be controlled for. Would you agree? Also: The type of objective evidence that is most pertinent to cable manufacturer claims are those that are most conspicuously absent:The measurements showing that the AC cable affected the OUTPUT OF THE AUDIO SIGNAL, and in an audible way. One can measure variations in the behavior of cables, but if the claim is this alters the signal at the audio output of a device THAT is where we'd want to see supporting measurements. But instead, all you get at that point is marketing, and anecdote. |
The AC cords supplied by ARC are quite substantial, including a 20-amp IEC main input on mono blocks. These can be improved upon in terms of better metals and other materials. In recent years, and perhaps still, ARC factory-test-listened with AC cables made by Chris Sain, here in the Twin Cities. I have been acquainted with Chris over the years and have auditioned his Sainline AC cables, which were over my budget at the time, but I was inspired by that sound improvement to make some cables for my system--first try was ok--second try was very good and still in use. ARC does adhere to their own advice, and your system is going to sound as it should by using finer-quality copper/silver wire, connections, etc. This has been well-established through real-world listening over many years, my fellow audiophiles. |
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@prof another excellent post! I would say the measurements that show a change to the output signal don’t exist because they don’t exist. And I think some manufacturers say to use the best cabling because they don’t want to alienate potential buyers. And what does that mean exactly? To me the best interconnects is a Beldon purchased for $50. If they said cables don’t matter and you’re an idiot if you think so, then if you believed they did you wouldn’t buy their product. |
@analogluvr And I think some manufacturers say to use the best cabling because they don’t want to alienate potential buyers. Exactly. Some manufacturers surely believe in the use of high end AC cables. But some are obviously making concessions to the audiophile market. I've seen speaker designers say if they had their way, they'd be selling fully active speakers, but the audiophile market just doesn't want them because audiophiles like to play with amps, cables etc. So...they sell what the market wants. I remember a number of manufacturers of gear say the reason they don't use hard wired AC cables isn't because they think AC cables make a difference, but rather that they would simply be cutting away part of their market - the sizable portion of audiophiles who insist they need to be able to swap in expensive AC cables. |
Fascinating to read this. Appreciate many of the posts. I will admit bias and not having tested since I believe so strongly in the power of suggestion. But two things stand out. First, a poster quoted ARC, a respected audio company and unless I am mistaken twisted the quote badly to suit this discussion. The paragraph he quoted from ARC referenced specifically speaker wire and interconnects. Not power cords. Second, a very basic concept (in my opinion). If one were to grant that a PC can change the resulting sound of a system.... one has to posit that there is intrinsically “something” we are essentially conditioning or altering coming in from the wall current. I think this argues for power conditioners, not PC that “sort of, kind of”, function as conditioners. I also find it hard to believe that all the people who perceive this improvement believe that the IEC connector on their unit has the optimal spec as well as optimal wire internally passing the current to the next destination. After all, we couldn’t trust the company to supply a really good sounding PC, and many of the same people swap in special wall outlets. But all this belief on display that a PC can be heard, does make me suspect that there are some people where their systems would benefit from a power conditioner of some sort. Maybe. |
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