I've built my AC cords using Furutech Ohno Continuous Cast copper--much better sound clarity over tough pitch copper. Your signal needs a smooth, quiet pathway to travel in. No grain boundaries in OCC metal--less distortion. You must also address the noisy power supply feeding into your AC cords instead of dismissing better cords because of the noisy power lines, etc--have to improve this. Nothing should be ordinary in a high-performance system.
Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
Showing 18 responses by jafreeman
No, the AC cord does not carry the audio signal, but it does carry the electrical energy upon which the audio signal is delivered throughout the system and to the speakers. How free of noise and distortion for the audio signal is that energy? It is often said that amp transformers are an extension of the power cord. Is the noisy AC cleaned up in the transformers, or is there a continuation of a burden of distortion that the audio signal must share, resulting in sound degradation that you hear? Why do you install aftermarket caps, crossovers, hook-up wire that are better in materials than original---to improve clarity, I presume? I don’t do these things, but I have addressed AC power and AC cords, vibration, EMI---all changes have brought vast improvements in clarity and increased information. A lot of folks want scientific explanations. Others have had their minds made up for them by authorities---no need to try it for themselves. I regard these positions as obstructive to progress. There is no technical explanation that will satisfy them---just read the hyperbole from a cable manufacturer--still not good enough. For others, there is no room for authentic knowledge--the certainty gained through your own experience. IME, the electrical energy has to made clean and then kept clean. I didn’t know anything---I listened to others and then tried it---successfully. As "NoNoise" just said, not that difficult to wrap your head around. Power cords help remove the noise and distortions from the energy that delivers your signal. Is a six-foot cord enough to do that? In many cases, no, and that is why folks don’t hear enough of a difference. The power ahead of the cord is still too noisy and not good enough for high-performance audio. Dedicated circuits give more power, but not always the clean power needed. A power cleaning appliance, made by, e.g., Equitech, Furman, Richard Gray, Torus, PS Audio, et al, is what is really needed to ensure power that is free of distortion and noise. Your nice cords usually plug into that appliance or shortly thereafter. |
No EE here, but my trial-and-error experience has shown me that a large isolation transformer helps deliver a quality energy supply, and then differences in AC cords have been easily heard. For a larger system, a 240V/120V transformer puts things in a different league. I suspect many of you don't hear enough of a difference between cords because your noisy power supply cannot be improved enough with that last six feet of high-purity copper. While an isolation transformer does have a common ground between the windings, I have never heard any switching noise or dropout in my house when major appliances come on---rock solid. A big plus with the 240V/120V is it originates from both service bus bars and is always in phase compared to what may occur using multiple circuits. I've built two levels of AC cords, and I know the improvements. |
"I don’t understand why people think that very expensive, high end audio gear should be the most prone to the most superfluous variables." kosst Could be because cables and cords leading into and out of that high-end gear cannot perform up to the standard of that gear. From my Audio Research Ref 210 owner’s manual, 2006: IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections. Audio Research cannot emphasize enough the use of high-quality cords and wire, and I consider their advice of the highest authority. I have always taken that as audio canon. All of you naysayers lost this argument before you started it, and you’ve been losing it as long as you have been making it, but you will probably continue, misinformed as before. |
The AC cords supplied by ARC are quite substantial, including a 20-amp IEC main input on mono blocks. These can be improved upon in terms of better metals and other materials. In recent years, and perhaps still, ARC factory-test-listened with AC cables made by Chris Sain, here in the Twin Cities. I have been acquainted with Chris over the years and have auditioned his Sainline AC cables, which were over my budget at the time, but I was inspired by that sound improvement to make some cables for my system--first try was ok--second try was very good and still in use. ARC does adhere to their own advice, and your system is going to sound as it should by using finer-quality copper/silver wire, connections, etc. This has been well-established through real-world listening over many years, my fellow audiophiles. |
"First, a poster quoted ARC, a respected audio company and unless I am mistaken twisted the quote badly to suit this discussion. The paragraph he quoted from ARC referenced specifically speaker wire and interconnects. Not power cords." xyobgyn Yes, that was me, and yes, you are mistaken. See my subsequent post on the Sainline AC cords ARC has used at the factory to test their designs. Look at the Sainline Systems site for that verification by Warren Gehl, chief listener for ARC product design and every piece that leaves the factory. He uses high-quality AC cords in the ARC factory listening room! |
"If one were to grant that a PC can change the resulting sound of a system.... one has to posit that there is intrinsically “something” we are essentially conditioning or altering coming in from the wall current." xyobgyn Yes, that "something" IS the electrical current that courses through your system and wires and into your speakers. Upon that current resides the audio signal you like to hear. If the current is kept free of noise and distortion, you hear more of the signal. An EE may say the current has been filtered through many phases of circuit and the AC cord does not matter. Empirically, those of us who are not EE’s are experiencing that high-quality AC cords, interconnects, speaker wires and fundamentally-important isolation transformers are bringing sound quality to much higher levels of enjoyment. At the expense of sounding naive, I have concluded that there must be a burden of distortion that must be shared by the audio signal all the way through the system. Otherwise, an AC cord would not matter, but it does. |
Yes, xyobgyn, and then I asked that you read my subsequent posts on what ARC is doing with aftermarket AC cords in their factory listening room! ARC completes that quote about interconnections with real-world use of AC cords to voice their designs. Please do not try to edit the comprehensive evidence I have offered. |
xyobgyn, Regarding my reference from the ARC amplifier manual: Not only do they recommend using the best interconnects and speaker cables, but they also use and endorse better AC cords. From Warren Gehl, Chief Listener at ARC, as written on the Sain Line Systems site: l use Sain Line Systems reference power cords and pure reference interconnects and consider them essential to getting the highest performance possible from our reference system and they are key tools for product development. I have combined the quote from the ARC manual with what I know about Warren Gehl and his use of reference AC power cords in product development, no less. I have the advantage of the wholistic picture here---you do not--until now. My sources are original and are highly regarded authorities--I have argued for the legitimacy of high-purity AC cords, interconnects and wires, I have explained to you why AC power modification is necessary. I hope I have been of some service to and others who are wondering where to go in the next development of their systems. Cheers, Joe |
xyobgyn, Yes, the situation is much as you say; we can bring all this expensive gear into our homes, plug it into the wall, and not always be overwhelmed by great sound. It will be good--could be made better. AC power is often noisy and the typical 15 amp house circuit cannot provide enough wattage to perform the work required by a system of any decent size. Some modifications are necessary, and these can be taken to the Nth degree. A 20-amp dedicated circuit can be added. Two can be added. Isolation transformers are used, as well as regenerators and passive conditioners. AC outlets and power cords can be added, but something has to done to address ordinary conditions if you are using extraordinary equipment that is capable of extraordinary performance. Empirically--from experience and without further evidence--these things are the best Rx. Regards, Joe |
xyobgyn, Man, you are so ridiculously off base, I can hardly bring myself to respond. Where did you come up with an idea of people getting into trouble or being fired? I cite the ARC manual for my Reference 210 amps, mention a respected cable builder and add that a top official at ARC uses his cables to help in product development, and you decide to build an investigation that comes off as a conspiracy case! I have suffered through a lot of pomposity, tortured logic, and know-it-alls on here, but you take the cake with this one. Please--don't embarrass yourself any further. |
Thank you, Kaarmstrong, for your real-world findings. Others would do well to listen and learn from you. That’s a good way to advance one's system development. As for you, xyobgyn, just forget trying to understand ARC’s position on and use of quality AC cords and interconnections. I have faithfully represented their views, but you just won't leave it alone. You are unteachable, at least by me. See the following: https://www.facebook.com/audioresearchcorp/photos/a.1245658155506530/1880198268719179/?type=3&ei... |
Even though this thread has veered wildly from the original question, the evidence for the validity of using high-quality AC cords is overwhelming. That ARC's most longstanding employee, who listens to every piece that leaves the factory--including repairs-- uses high-end AC cords to aid in product development should impress both the most hardened doubter and the seeker of advice and guidance. As a student of the hobby, I visit these forums to learn from others, and that's all any novice needs to do to advance their system from good to great. Merry Christmas to all! |