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Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
845 responses Add your response
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@elizabeth the treble has more clarity. easier to understand female vocals, hear cymbals clearly, massed violins sound as a group of separate instruments, not just some clump of noise So less distortion and lower noise? @jea48 Are you unaware that overtones are harmonics? As for interconnects, as long as they are well enough shielded, then yes (at least in regards to audible changes). Do you think recording studios who spend >$10,000 on room treatment also are buying “audiophile” XLR cables? |
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Thank you @jea48 for your post with comments from Ralph, Nelson, and OLC. I had a couple of questions about Ralph’s post yesterday but did not see an answer and then the thread seemed to spiral down a rabbit hole. Ralph’s response from your post covers my questions and Nelson’s comments and linked information address the amplifier end of things. BTW, OLC is posting again at Audio Asylum since he apparently no longer has conflicts of interest between his day job and posting on a public forum. My questions from yesterday; 1. What characteristics of a power cord would affect voltage (i.e., cause a voltage drop) - is that primarily a function of resistance and wire gauge, or something else, and 2. What characteristics of a power cord would affect bandwidth? Based on Ralph’s comments, it seems both the voltage drop and bandwidth issues are affected by the amount of current available to the power supply. This implies, bigger (heavier gauge) wire is better for PCs, and particularly when supplying power to large amplifiers, no? Both issues seem to be related to wire gauge size. Shielding is another issue that comes up, with some believing PCs sound better when unshielded, which seems to contrast with the findings of OLC. The connector thing makes sense that they should be substantial enough not to heat up upon use. Therefore, it seems we are back to wire gauge, geometry, shielding, and connectors as being the factors affecting PC performance (notice I left out marketing, pixie dust, magic beads, and directionality (sorry Geoff)). Common sense would imply the PC should be at least as large as the household wire feeding the circuit (mine is 10 awg for 20A circuits and my DIY cords that feed two large mono amps are 7 awg). The conductors are twisted to reduce inductance, the cords are shielded to resist interference, and the connectors are robust and use actual copper for the connection. Don’t forget the quality of the wall outlets everything is plugged into. Somebody mentioned a direct connection rather than using an IEC and I agree. I had a direct connection on an amp Steve McCormack upgraded for me, but later I added an IEC so I could try different PCs. The possibility of making DIY PCs from NM Cable (i.e., Romex) is interesting, particularly as Ralph believes that cable works well for power distribution. I looked into why Romex is not approved for use outside of the wall and the primary reason the code doesn’t allow it is that the covering is not considered robust enough to resist damage that might affect the wires - but it is suitable for the set it and forget it in-wall use. Another concern is that the large solid core wire in Romex may not be as resistant to multiple bending events. There is also some difference of opinion as to whether Romex can be used inside of conduit, with some seeming to think this is ok while others caution there could be a heat issue (inside of the conduit) that might affect the wire. Aside from those safety considerations, it might be fun to make up a couple of 10 awg Romex PCs to try on my big power amps - just to hear how they sound (but of course I would unplug them from the wall when not in use). |
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@jea48 I don’t have a subscription to access AES papers, so nothing 100% credible, but here are some measurements of RCA cables. Of course it’s not Nordost Odin 2 or anything that ridicoulous. As for the stereo crosstalk, keep in mind even the worse offender is still well below the signal to be considered inaudible, and the 3” generic cable performed similarly/better than the 3” “expensive” silver one. EDIT: Wonderful, just notified some of my comments were removed, even though they break none of the guidelines. Love the open discussion. |
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@elizabth Changing the waveform’s “speed” is thus changing the frequency of the wave. Now, even though the US power grid is 60Hz, there is of course some allowed deviation, and there is deviation within our home’s wiring too. Clocks in microwaves, ovens, etc. all use the cycle rate to count time, so if one of your clocks runs faster/slower than the others, it likely means the outlet it’s connected to it constantly putting out less/more cycles (or the clock inside the equipment is just faulty). But no, changing power cords won’t make a 1kHz note suddenly become a 1200Hz one. |
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@elizabeth mitch2.. One part of you query is about what else can be in the powercord that is not being measured" (totally parphrasing, if in error, yell at me)No yelling necessary Elizabeth, but that was not actually the question. My questions were in response to Ralph's post from 1-11 at 1:55pm where he pointed out; I’ve seen a power cord make a difference of nearly 30% of output power out of a power amplifier. I could also see that that was caused by a voltage drop across the power cord.and You can measure differences in output power, output impedance and distortion on many power amps just by changing the power cord- and many of these differences are simply caused by voltage drop.and There is more to it than voltage drop though. It also has to do with bandwidth of the power cord as it has to be able to provide current at high frequencies because rectifiers in power supplies often commutate (switch on and off) for very short periods of time, and if the current gets limited during that current pulse the power supply can’t charge completely.I am curious then whether simply the wire gauge of the PC is the primary factor affecting the incidence and severity of voltage drop, which then affects power output and bandwidth. I am not implying that is the only factor affecting power cord performance but, I am skeptical there is much more than wire gauge, geometry, wire type, shielding, and connectors that would make a significant difference. For wire type and geometery, I suspect OFE/OFHC C101 copper and a twisted pair should be just fine, although a star-quad geometry would further lower inductance. I would be interested in knowing what other parameters (than those listed) would make a meaningful difference in a power cord. |
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@elizabeth The wave form hits the point in space.. how long does it take to touch pass and leave that point. It cannot be instantaneous.. it takes time. how much time? no one cares?? is it spending a lot of time there from start to finish. or fast? from start to finish. True frequency would make to whole thing faster, but ignore that. for any specific frequency, the wave front time from first point to last.. How long? can it be longer? being fuzzy? or faster, being tight? you have NO IDEA. If you say it cannot . be then you are claiming the wave is an infinite point? no time spread at all? Can it BE fuzzy? you don’t know that either I don’t think you have a fundamental understating of how audio (in real life or in a Hi-Fi system) works. We do know of long a waveform should be (at a given temperature). Here’s a nice calculator for 72°F: http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm A “fuzzy” waveform means distortion/noise. You cannot make a wave faster/slower unless you change the temperature of the room. If you make it “faster” without doing so, all you actually did was change what the actual frequency is. @jae48 I received two emails stating my posts were removed by a moderator, the one talking about how I can’t tell you what food you like, but I can tell you if the output of your speakers changed if you “upgraded you power cords, and another one thanking @stevecharm for the most sensible answer to my question, but then asked him what he thinks about how the OEM cables already provide the performance as stated in specs, and how audible changes could be if distortion and whatnot are already very low, keep in mind the THD of your speakers is magnitudes louder than the THD of a DAC. |
The *velocity* of all the audio frequencies are changed equally when the temperature changes in the room. Be that as it may who would listen in a room that’s 60 degrees or 80 degrees, anyway? Answer at 11. Even if the temperature was 60 or 80 degrees the sound would be about the same as at 70. Mystery solved. |
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To throw something else out there, on many occasions Ralph (Atma) has noted that balanced equipment lessens the need of expensive interconnects. Does the same go for power cords? I run differential components sans the power amps. Entire system runs on Equi-Tech and BPT for AC. For the longest used Mcintosh MC60s with captive power cords and was advised not to change them. Upgrade (I hope) is coming. Power cords will be needed. Does my balanced power relieve somewhat the need to go high end on the power cords? |
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I can tell the difference between stock power cords and say, Audience, Audioquest or Shunyata high end cables--all of which I have, had or listened to in my system at length. I hear better and tighter bass, better microdynamics, dimensionality and pace or some combination of most of the above in all of them. These high end PCs all differ in character but all exceed, on balance, what stock cords bring to the table. I often fail to hear differences in tweaks to my system but I hear the differences in PCs and ICs as clearly as I can hear the differences in room treatments. If others cannot hear these differences and rely upon the limited universe of existing measurements that don’t come close to measuring all aspects of human hearing, good for them--they can use lamp cord and save thousands of dollars on expensive PCs or ICs. As for me, I’ll keep listening to my expensive PCs and ICs and enjoy the differences that they bring. There is no measurement that will convince me that I'm hearing |
@gpgr4blu I wont argue about what someone else hears or doesn’t hear, but: limited universe of existing measurements that don’t come close to measuring all aspects of human hearing I find this interesting. What do you think measurements can’t capture? I’m not talking preferences, but simply measuring: frequency response, THD, IMD, dynamic compression/linearity, crosstalk, channel mismatch, phase mismatch, noise floor, impulse, spectral decay, etc. |
@mzkmxcv: Timbre, texture of sound, the presence or absence of easily heard vs buried microdynamics in a passage, imaging and, most importantly, whether the music sounds natural and rhythmic and engages one emotionally or is presented in a mechanical and metronomic fashion. Indeed, we only have measurements for characteristics of sound which are within our knowledge. Not to dismiss measurements. They are important--for example I don't think an amp can sound good if it measures poorly, but an amp that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good at all. |
I do find it interesting that we have not yet learned to take measurements and from those measurements tell if a piece of equipment will sound good to the ear. All good audio designers know this. You use objective science to get close to what you want in a power amp design, for example, and then you tweak and trial and error to voice the thing to sound great. For example, you might experiment with the types of caps, play around with surface mount or through-hole mounting, types of internal wiring and solder, or consider adding tubes. Tubes, for example, do nothing to improve the measurements - they add distortion - but there is a reason many of the best preamps ever made use tubes. They sound good, and you will not arrive at that conclusion by looking at measurements. You just have to listen. |
Thanks for the response.
Timbre
Timbre is harmonics (overtones), this is easily seen by inputting a signal and seeing what the FFT/distortion graph looks like. I personally believe that no gear should have timbre, it should only be transparent and accurately reproduce the timbre of the instruments in the recording. Of course most speakers have timbre, but any expensive solid-state amp, DAC, or preamp that is competent will not have audible distortion/timbre.
Texture of the sound
Not sure what this actually means, so no answer.
the presence or absence of easily heard vs buried microdynamics in a passage
This is how “quick” the gear is. This would be the impulse response and the spectral decay/energy-time curve.
imaging For speakers, it’s how the off-axis frequency response is in relation to the on-axis. If you look at the Lateral response graph done by Stereophile, the Vivid Audio Giya G3 for instance have amazing imaging, even at 90° it’s almost identical (the soundstage is super wide too though, so room treatment would be recommended). For amps, DACs, and preamps, this is the channel separation (crosstalk), channel amplitude mismatch, and channel phase mismatch.
whether the music sounds natural
I’d say the more transparent the more natural, unless you are implying the recording themselves don’t sound natural. As I’ve said though, blind-studies have shown we pretty much all like the same things, but the factor of how much bass and treble we like is a tad different, the amount of bass an audio engineer likes (pretty much no boost) is much lower than the amount of bass the average joe off the street likes, which is about 6dB more. However, the preferences of a smooth frequency response with the best imaging, with low distortion/resonances, etc. can be treated as identical.
rhythmic I’d say this is the same as microdynamics, unless your defitnion is different than mine.
engages one emotionally or is presented in a mechanical and metronomic fashion
Come on dude, what does this even mean? I bet playing Sinatra’s ‘My Way’ on my car’s setup to my NY Italian relatives would be more emotionally engaging than any demo song played on a pair of Revel Ultima Salon2’s being powered by MarkLevinson gear.
The one thing I can tell you, which is a fact, is that even if you picked one speaker as a winner in a double-blind listening test, no one can tell you if you will like it sighted, as the brand, looks, and price all are factors, even if we try to disregard them. One of the tests Toole did was compare some nice looking tower speakers to a bookshelf+sub system that was much cheaper and plastic, and once the reviewers could see the product, they actually rated the sound quality as being worse.
Since no one listens blind, this is why I always suggest in-home demos/trials, and too look for companies that allow you to do so without charging insane return/restocking fees. Doesn’t matter if it’s the “best” speaker in the world, if it’s from a no-name brand, is not expensive as you thought, and is ugly, you likely won’t buy it. |
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@jea48 Any decent amp/DAC/pre will not allow any distortion from your other appliances to affect your gear, unless talking ground loops. Stereophile (among other resources of course) has measured hundreds/thousands of pieces of equipment other than speakers, and most all preform to spec, and JA isn’t using any $5000 power cords, and he lives in a NY apartment/housing complex if I’m not mistaken. Are you saying you can get better than advertised specs if you upgrade the power cords? PS Audio sells “high end” power cords, and even he basically said, in his rebuttal to null tests, that their only real benefit is better shielding for EMI, if you look at the measurements of their M700, BHK 300, DirectStream DAC, etc., I would like to see which graph/spec would be improved by using not the standard cord it came with, but the higher end ones they, or other companies, sell, disregarding EMI. |
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@jea48 Both videos state it’s the harmonics, so not sure your point. As for microphones, are you stating you are choosing your gear to make up the deficiencies in the recorded track? If so, that’s the first I’ve heard of that rebuttal for not getting the most transparent gear (other than plain preference). And, that’s simply flawed as the mics used are not the same, so you are just chasing an imaginary problem. Measuring the accuracy of mics is easy. Put out a signal and see what the mic recorded. My measurement mic for doing DSP for instance came with an individual/unique calibration file to make sure it’s accurate. Of course a $500 mic will be “cleaner” than a $5 mic, but don’t think that changing power cords or interconnects or speaker wire will negate any deficiencies of the microphone used in the recording. I also very clearly answered your question, unless talking ground loops, your power amp will not be affected by a light dimmer switch or your neighbor’s refrigerator. |
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PS Audio sells “high end” power cords, and even he basically said, in his rebuttal to null tests, that their only real benefit is better shielding for EMI When and where did Paul state that? I just watched a video of his where he says the gauge of wiring in power cables affects the frequencies: large gauge emphasis bass and small gauge emphasis treble. He said a good power cable uses both small and large gauge. I have found similar results in my experience. When I put a very large gauge power cable upstream of my DAC, I had to turn down the sub because the bass was much greater than with a smaller gauge cable. And if it wasn’t actually greater in quantity, then it did something to the bass that made me want to turn it down because it wasn’t as pleasing. I eventually swapped that cable out because it didn’t improve on what was there before. This experience reflects other comments I’ve read about matching the right cable gauge to the piece of equipment. Larger gauge isn’t necessarily better. |
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@mkgus Gauge only effects wattage loss per distance/impedance and damping factor, being better for different frequencies isn’t true, and doesn’t even make sense. https://youtu.be/G0ZQHTzYv9I?t=5m13s Better shielding to EMI, nothing about affecting the sound of the music in regards to tonal quality or quicker transients. |
An observation: anyone having difficulty wrapping his head around power cords is really not going to like the subject of audiophile fuses. Now, coincidentally fuses go into AC circuits just like power cords do, and are widely reported to affect the sound, just like power cords, and share a lot of the same characteristics/variables with power cords like directionality, purity of metals, measurements don’t corroborate listening results, and RF rejection. And many of the arguments are the same, must be a crappy power supply, the power from the wall is clean, AC travels in both directions, if they’re so great why don’t manufacturers routinely put them in their amps, yada yada yada.... |
elizabeth6,206 posts01-13-2019 1:44pmKudos to Enid Lumley who ’discovered’ lifting cables made an improvement. >>>>>Actually her cable tunnels not only isolated cables from the deleterious effects of the floor or carpet in terms of vibration but the wood tunnels that supported the cables with rubber bands or string were treated to reduce static electrical charge effects. When I was at CES with Pierre of Mapleshade we supported all cabling from the ceiling using eye hooks and fishing line. That was 1997. When she brought that discovery to the World via The Absolute Sound.. she was run out of town on a rail, figuratively Sad.. I >>>>>>You have to be tough, tough, tough. It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken 🐔 |
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You guys are wasting your time. You cannot win any argument with any cable deniers folks. That's the reality. They will never submit to actually trying stuff, instead, asking us to provide proof and measurements. They often throw in some mumbo-jumbo electric engineering stuff into the discussion, often copied from another similar forum, just say: "you see - it cannot possibly make a difference". More often than not, their actual gear is a pittance, stuff from the 80s, with captive power cords, and low-fi gear. Even if they tried good cables, they won't hear any difference anyway, as their stuff is junk. A $1,000 power cords will not make a DIY Amp costing $499 in 1988 sound like a modern, say $10,000 Amp. As simple as that. I always find them to show their jealousy, lack of means to accomplish anything, and a serious case of "If I cannot afford it, it is not worth it" mentality. Just ignore them. Find like-minded people, with good gear, and open-mind to experiment and try new stuff. |
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