I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
1) Only poorly designed gear benefits from upgraded power supply cables or power source (power conditioner, etc.). If your product benefits from it, return it and get a better made one.
2) Unless you are doing a long run, EMI is not an issue unless you literally have a radio tower next to you. Even then, a well shielded cable or a ferrite chocker can be very cheap, no need to buy >$100 cables.
3) Mains noise is also usually isn’t that bad, so fixing it likely wouldn’t provide much of an audible difference outside of subjective opinions.
Only poorly designed gear benefits from upgraded power supply cables or power source (power conditioner, etc.).
No doubt a well-built, oversized power supply goes a long way towards reaching maximize sound quality.
If your product benefits from it, return it and get a better made one.
Manufacturers have to build to certain price points based on consumer wants and needs, and unfortunately (most) people have budgets they have to stick to with this hobby. Most anything “budget friendly” will benefit from power cables because they will have a power supply that’s “good enough” to get good sound, and not over-engineered ones that are required for high end audio. You could say these budget friendly models are poorly designed but many are probably good designs given their price point.
Manufacturers have to build to certain price points
Maybe if we are talking $100 power amps or $30 DACs. Any issue with power supply would show up in measurements done by various sites (again, unless you live literally next to a radio tower, as the reviewers likely don’t), and it’s very rare for any products, regardless of price, to show any mains leakage (harmonic distortion every 60Hz, or 50Hz for Europe and whatnot).
Disregarding mains leakage and focusing on EMI, a 20¢ ferrite with most likely solve the issue.
There has to be a stop put to the notion that there is some kind of cut off point where there's junk that benefits from the use of better cords and conditioners and above that, everything is perfect and won't. That's way too simplistic an argument and not at all in standing with what's been observed.
I’ve seen a power cord make a difference of nearly 30% of output power out of a power amplifier. I could also see that that was caused by a voltage drop across the power cord.
and
You can measure differences in output power, output impedance and distortion on many power amps just by changing the power cord- and many of these differences are simply caused by voltage drop.
and finally,
There is more to it than voltage drop though. It also has to do with bandwidth of the power cord.......
My questions are not whether a power cord can affect the sound of an amplifier (or other gear) since I have heard the differences, but rather, 1. What characteristics of a power cord would affect voltage (i.e., cause a voltage drop) - is that primarily a function of resistance and wire gauge, or something else, and 2. What characteristics of a power cord would affect bandwidth?
There are dozens of sites that measure gear, going from budget to the best there is, find me the measurements of any competent gear that has harmonic distortion every 60Hz (or 50Hz for most non-Americans). In fact, the only measurements I have seen of mains leakage is in devices that are supposed to clean up signals/wattage, like the Wyrd4Sound Remedy Reclocker, it needs a linear power supply or else it just leaks power supply noise (shouldn’t be bought anyway as it doesn’t reduce jitter in any normal use case, only if you have like a 30ft fun and need a repeater, but even then it’s overpriced).
I've been a believer from many moons ago but my latest power cord for my subwoofer totally changed my systems SQ for the better and it wasn't subtle. Like the OP I just want to know why this happens but after reading this thread I guess the one that was on the subwoofer before was indeed letting noise through. Great info and I've learned a lot from many on this thread. New PC was just over a c-note.
What kind of difference did you hear? Bass pretty much has no timbre, that’s why matching your subs to the speakers pretty much doesn’t exist, and at 20Hz we can practically have 100% THD and it not be audible, and even 10% THD at 100Hz is about the threshold.
Going back 40 years, I have been replacing hard wired factory power cords with larger gauge wire on 100's of amplifiers ( such as Marantz model 15, Citation 12 and 16a, Phase Linear 400, SAE 2200, Nad 3020, Rotel RB850 or a Soundcraftsmen A400, CJ Premier 12, Yamaha P2050, just to name a few ). The new cable was from either Carol or Southwire, 12 gauge, unshielded, with standard Wattgate plugs. Nothing fancy. Tremendous improvement in sq, in every instance. Did it on everything, including preamplifiers, cd players, tuners, equalizers, etc, with great improvements in sq. Were all of these products produced with poorly designed power supplies ? I doubt it. Personally, I was not a fan of IEC inlets when they started showing up on gear, as I believed, and still do, hard wiring to be a superior connection, but I do understand, and have adapted to the iec standard. Power cables make a difference, and hearing is believing......Enjoy ! MrD.
Some of the differences heard : Increase in dynamic range; greater ability to hear finite details; smoother and more extended top end; deeper, fuller and greater extension of bottom end; easiness and flow of the music; instruments and vocals became clearer; musicianship easier to follow; soundspace is more holographic ( wider, deeper and higher ); everything is more coherent. Enjoy ! MrD.
The only thing I changed was the pc on the sub and even my wife commented how real everything was sounding. focus and more precise base, soundstage stayed the same but voice and instruments were easier located from one another. I understand your comment about timbre, wife plays keys and I play guitar but damn it sounds real! all I know is we're enjoying the music very much so! maybe we hit the jackpot with system synergy?
1) “increase in dynamic range”: I’m guessing you mean a lower noise floor, mains leakage causing harmonics of 60Hz (or 50Hz) can/does happen and can usually be fixed with a linear power supply. However, it is rare for the actual cable to be an issue and not internal components.
2) “greater ability to hear finite detail”: Same as 1.
3) “Smoother...top end”: If you were having harmonics, then yes: But as stated in 1, it’s usually not a result of using a cheap power cord but more so the internals.
4) “more extended top end”: Literally impossible, this is not a factor of power cables nor power supply.
5) “deeper, fuller and greater extension of bottom end”: See 4.
6) “easiness and flow of the music; instruments and vocals became clearer; musicianship easier to follow; soundspace is more holographic ( wider, deeper and higher ); everything is more coherent.”: See 4.
Thats the same as saying increasing the horsepower in your car make the leather interior more cushiony, they have no correlation.
You are talking about having electrical changes, which could easily be verified by comparing the output of such devices before/after changing the power cords, rather than giving subjective impressions.
@mzkmxcv...….I am talking about power cables. Not understanding what you are questioning, but you obviously are like some of those naysayers I have stopped communicating with, over our differences of what power cables bring to the table. Enjoy ! MrD.
I’m not the one claiming power cables can alter soundstage width.
I’ve seen measurements of some gear that benefits from a cleaner power supply, but even the wall power usually didn’t have high enough distortion to matter. But cases can be made.
I’ve seen that Toslink cables can measure differently and that USB cables of longer length are worse (a 3” generic cable beats a 10ft thousand dollar cable every time), but, any decent DAC will reduce the jitter to below audible levels.
However, I’ve never seen any product that benefits from a better power cable, unless the benefit being discussed is better EMI handling, but even then ferrite beads exit. If you have anything to show that power cables do matter, I’d appreciate a link.
@Mzkmxcz We might be talking about different things. Mains leakage and EMI are important considerations. I was referring to over-engineered power supplies as a means to improve sound quality and dynamics. It’s long been known that using large power supplies rated many times in excess of what is “required” provides better sound. PS Audio was one of the first ones to discover this and bring it to market with their preamp line and then eventually all/most of their products.
I am indeed not talking about power supplies, which can make a difference. I’ve seen products that have power supplies restrict their performance as the amp modules were capabale of more wattage than the power supply could offer. And thus, since more wattage means more dynamics, I agree with you on that point. Not so sure I agree with over-engineered and rated for more than what is needed; like I suggest more wattage for power amps that what is needed as most amps have more distortion at the top of their range and more heat dissipation which can reduce its lifespan, but if an amp didn’t have those issues, then I wouldn’t reocmeneded more wattage than necessary, same goes for power supplies, now I don’t know if the power supplies aren’t as good when you get close to their limits, if they do, then yes, get a better one that what it’s rated for, though I would argue what it’s rated for is thus incorrect.
I am disagreeing with the fact that changing the power cords can make your bass deeper and give you a wider soundstage.
I can't believe you're bringing up placebo. That dog won't hunt. Anyone who falls for placebo won't, in the long run. Patients will eventually take a turn for the worse, and/or die.
Anyone who's tricked into hearing something will shortly right their hearing after the "test" is over. It's not permanent. That's why it's a cheap parlor trick. That, and it goes both ways: those who refuse to believe they won't hear something won't. They'll just fall back on their math, manual, and cite others, sometimes because they simply can't hear all that well, or they have an agenda.
We are talking electrical differences by using a “better” power cord, if such a thing worked, the output of the device would be different. I won’t even argue audible differences, if anyone can show measured differences between power cords, I’d like to see it.
Here’s some measurements of USB cables, note that after the DAC their performances can be treated as identical, but it clearly shows that you can have lower or higher jitter before the DAC. Although, the differences are with length and not generic vs audiophile-grade.
I think mrdecibel is right, you're simply trolling, or proselytizing (which is as bad), trying your best to convert those who know better. We can hear the difference and don't need saving.
That, and it's funny how you end a lot of your proclamations with "I'd like to see it" and not, I'd like to hear it. What's up with that?
I’m not aiming to tell anyone who bought a $550 AudioQuest Diamond Toslink cable to return it and get an AmazonBasics one. As I’ve continually stated, I don’t care if you can hear a difference, if you feel a $200 power cord makes an audible improvement, then it was worth it. However, I can say with most certainty that the sound coming from your speakers is 100% identical, and thus advertising such “improvements” and making the layperson believe power cables actually do alter the signal is just how myths get started, same way people think 24/192 sounds better than 16/44.1 (assuming same master).
I’ve asked repeatedly now for an explanation on how a “better” power cord can improve imaging or extend treble response, as @mrdecible claimed, and yet all I get are the same statements that I must be trolling.
You hear what you hear, just like how some people see “the dress” as white/gold when it in fact is blue/black (I saw it as white/gold the first day, then the next morning I saw it as black/blue, totally shocked, and then relived a few days later when it was confirmed blue/black). If you think you aren’t susceptible to placebo, then that’s denial, even people who whole heartedly believe in data/measurements are.
There may be numerous ways, but I would like you to pick one that doesn’t deal with mains leakage or EMI and explain how a power cable improves it (such as the stated extending of treble response). I would also recommend emailing any of the companies whose products you experience have had improvements with upgraded power cords and see what someone with likely a PhD in mechincal/electrical engineering has as a response.
As I said, 99.999% of devices I’ve seen show no mains leakages and perform to spec with the OEM cables. If you think a better power cord makes it perform better than what it’s spec’d at, more power to ya.
If you think there are actually sonic changes that measurements can’t show, I would also like to hear your reasoning. We aren’t talking personal preference of how one measured speaker is supposed to sound better than another, we are talking simply any changes at all.
If I claimed “upgrading” my car’s battery cable gained me faster acceleration, I’m pretty sure you’d be doubtful too.
@mzkmxcv, When you saw that dress at different times, was it from the very same source and not from ones that intentionally showed different versions of it? I, myself, saw different colors from different sources that intended to show them that way due to admitted use of filters or to make a point. I never saw a different color when looking at the same picture from the same source or site. Are you saying your were fooled by that, and that is your analogy?
Indeed, if it sounds better to you, go for it. Just keep in mind it’s all placebo.
However, I can say with most certainty that the sound coming from your speakers is 100% identical
It’s not placebo though. I have found the differences in sound between a $2 factory-supplied cord and a well-built high-end cable to be drastic, and repeatably so. I’m sure there are instances where cables don’t make a big difference, but so far I’ve found upgraded cables to help with each piece of equipment I’ve tried one on: amps, DACs, preamps, etc. The funny thing about it is that I didn’t want cables to make a difference - I didn’t want to spend money on them. Then I heard the differences clear as day and came to understand that cables are components that you cannot overlook if you want a truly high-end system. Mzkmxcv, do you have a revealing system? Why not just try a 30-day money back guarantee power cable in your system and see if you can hear it?
I was on my phone and fell asleep to people reacting to what they see/saw, fell asleep, woke up, and I saw it differently, and never changed back to the incorrect colors no matter when/how I saw it. I really was freaky, as I was most posit e it was white/gold.
All I’m saying is that just like people still see the dress as white/gold even after being shown it’s blue/black, people’s ears also play tricks on them.
But like I said, if you hear a difference, buy all the power cords, brilliant pebbles, WA quantum chips, etc. that you want. Just don’t confuse your reality to actual reality. All it does is deter newcomers.
I feel sorry for anyone who believes that reputable high end PCs cannot improve the sound of a system in many ways--in fact, too numerous to list.
I do too. It’s like going to an art museum with your friend and being brought to tears by the beauty of a certain piece of artwork and having your friend glance at it for 1 second and say “there’s no scientific research showing that that specific piece of art is beautiful, therefore it’s just placebo effect.” To which I would reply, “Have you tried simply looking at the art piece? You’re missing out on a lot of life by carrying around that attitude.”
I'm not confusing anything as it was simply due to an imbalance of the white setting. All of the thousands of stations broadcasting are not entirely in sync. No mystery involved although there was a lot of blather as to what could be the explanation.
If anyone is susceptible to placebo or influence, you just admitted to it with your story of how you saw it and what you went through. I didn't.
So heed your own advice and don't confuse your reality with actual reality. All it does is deter newcomers. 👍
The reason people saw it differently is not a display white-balance error, but if people thought it was in a store with Daylight lightning or 2700K-3000K lighting, illustrative comparison. Not sure if you’ve seen this optical illusion, I think I’ve linked to in previous threads, it look at this Rubix cube looking object, the “brown” square centered on the top face is the same color as the “orange” square on the shaded face, no matter that you know this, you cannot see these as the same color (if you don’t believe me, zoom in and screen shot them).
My realty is that if your upgraded power cord did nothing to the electrical output of the signal, then return it. And no @mkgus, saying a power cord did not alter the sound coming out of your speakers is no way related to the appreciation of a painting.
Power cords do make a difference; I have heard those differences repeatedly over many years. And, it wasn’t because I spent money on a cable and was determined to convince my brain that there were differences or improvements or whatever. That’s because I was able to borrow friends’ cables, relax, take my time with a variety of source materials and check them out, at length, in my system. Again, they do make a difference and, as I’ve stated earlier and will state again here, I think the electrical basis for this is that different cables provide different levels of noise attentuation, some being more or less optimal for some systems due to a particular level of noise suppression that synergizes (or doesn’t) with that particular system or component. It need not be a rocket science explanation, it can be simple and reproducible. The key is to LISTEN, although for some here, that would be counterproductive now, wouldn't it?
Its subjectivism at a fundamental level. Power cords must change the sound or what is everyone hearing? I’m not convinced it’s placebo. I have many examples of hearing placebo effect with my audio system but extended listening tests has flushed them out. For example, I recently built some high pass filters that were 4 times as expensive as my current high pass filters and made with components people rave about. I hooked them up and thought I had improved sonics. But after extended listening tests I realized that the sound was actually worse in several metrics, so I took them out and put the cheapo filters back in. I’ve had similar experiences with installing more expensive RCA cables and ultimately pulling them out because the cheaper versions were better. If this was all placebo/confirmation bias I would have kept the expensive high pass filters because I genuinely thought they would be better.
Why is the word placebo used incorrectly time and again? A placebo is a term used in pharmacology, dead stop. It is inappropriate to use it for audio applications. A drug is efficacious, or not, quantitatively, in clinical trials that use placebos as blinded negative controls so that the effects of the drug under study can be quantified and appropriately documented. Only in that manner can the drug be established, or not, to be efficacious according to its indicated use.
That is NOT what we are talking about here and I would GREATLY appreciate it if thread contributors here would cease its use. Stop it!
No. Just google "the dress" and you'll see all the difference images. Now look at anything but the dress. The background lighting is different as are it's colors. It's not just the dress. One of those images will take you to a simple demonstration of someone adjusting the white balance in adobe and gradually the dress color changes, as everything else in the picture does.
What are the chances that all broadcasting and rebroadcasting (not to mention the intentional altering for the sake of a story) are identically balanced?
And yes, I've seen that optical illusion you refer to decades ago. It's been around for ages.
First, I have a question - does anyone know when the first audiophile power cord was announced or sold? I know it came after interconnects but I was wondering what year it was. Mid 1980's?
Second - Regarding why equipment manufacturers use standard power cords instead of audiophile ones is partly cost, which was already discussed, but the main reason is a UL listing. Few PC companies have gone through the cost of getting UL approval on their cables. Should something go wrong and a fire result, it is the amplifier manufacturer that will be sued. yes, perhaps the cable company will be sued as well, but that amplifier company has no defense since they opted to use a non UL approved product. Simply building a PC with UL components does not make it UL listed.
CAPS, the bigger the better, pump the current...limit voltage drops and drive the spl.Most transformers, the most expensive and important part have become so small over the years...but monster caps refreshed at 50-60 times per second does the job...if they can melt or brown a bus bar its all good!
My question is still if anyone can validate @mrdecible’s claims that “upgrading” power cords makes the tweeters extend higher, woofers extend deeper, etc.
I hate to judge too quickly but this appears to be one of those endless Brer Rabbit and Tar Baby threads. Or in the words of my favorite Tar Baby, “What about this? What about that?”
If I can easily show that the sound coming out of your speakers is still the same regardless of “upgrading” power cords, what argument would the “believers” have then?
“Fullness” is a meaningless term, so not sure (do you mean deep bass?). Timbre is harmonics, so that’s easy.
However, no solid state amp should have timbre anyway, it should only output what the input signal dictates. However all amps have some THD/IMD, but when it’s 80dB down, it’s not important.
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