1) Only poorly designed gear benefits from upgraded power supply cables or power source (power conditioner, etc.). If your product benefits from it, return it and get a better made one.
2) Unless you are doing a long run, EMI is not an issue unless you literally have a radio tower next to you. Even then, a well shielded cable or a ferrite chocker can be very cheap, no need to buy >$100 cables.
3) Mains noise is also usually isn’t that bad, so fixing it likely wouldn’t provide much of an audible difference outside of subjective opinions.
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@mkgus Manufacturers have to build to certain price points Maybe if we are talking $100 power amps or $30 DACs. Any issue with power supply would show up in measurements done by various sites (again, unless you live literally next to a radio tower, as the reviewers likely don’t), and it’s very rare for any products, regardless of price, to show any mains leakage (harmonic distortion every 60Hz, or 50Hz for Europe and whatnot). Disregarding mains leakage and focusing on EMI, a 20¢ ferrite with most likely solve the issue. |
@nonoise
There are dozens of sites that measure gear, going from budget to the best there is, find me the measurements of any competent gear that has harmonic distortion every 60Hz (or 50Hz for most non-Americans). In fact, the only measurements I have seen of mains leakage is in devices that are supposed to clean up signals/wattage, like the Wyrd4Sound Remedy Reclocker, it needs a linear power supply or else it just leaks power supply noise (shouldn’t be bought anyway as it doesn’t reduce jitter in any normal use case, only if you have like a 30ft fun and need a repeater, but even then it’s overpriced).
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@radiomanjh
What kind of difference did you hear? Bass pretty much has no timbre, that’s why matching your subs to the speakers pretty much doesn’t exist, and at 20Hz we can practically have 100% THD and it not be audible, and even 10% THD at 100Hz is about the threshold. |
@mkgus
I am indeed not talking about power supplies, which can make a difference. I’ve seen products that have power supplies restrict their performance as the amp modules were capabale of more wattage than the power supply could offer. And thus, since more wattage means more dynamics, I agree with you on that point. Not so sure I agree with over-engineered and rated for more than what is needed; like I suggest more wattage for power amps that what is needed as most amps have more distortion at the top of their range and more heat dissipation which can reduce its lifespan, but if an amp didn’t have those issues, then I wouldn’t reocmeneded more wattage than necessary, same goes for power supplies, now I don’t know if the power supplies aren’t as good when you get close to their limits, if they do, then yes, get a better one that what it’s rated for, though I would argue what it’s rated for is thus incorrect.
I am disagreeing with the fact that changing the power cords can make your bass deeper and give you a wider soundstage. |
@mrdecibel
We are talking power cords here:
1) “increase in dynamic range”: I’m guessing you mean a lower noise floor, mains leakage causing harmonics of 60Hz (or 50Hz) can/does happen and can usually be fixed with a linear power supply. However, it is rare for the actual cable to be an issue and not internal components.
2) “greater ability to hear finite detail”: Same as 1.
3) “Smoother...top end”: If you were having harmonics, then yes: But as stated in 1, it’s usually not a result of using a cheap power cord but more so the internals.
4) “more extended top end”: Literally impossible, this is not a factor of power cables nor power supply.
5) “deeper, fuller and greater extension of bottom end”: See 4.
6) “easiness and flow of the music; instruments and vocals became clearer; musicianship easier to follow; soundspace is more holographic ( wider, deeper and higher ); everything is more coherent.”: See 4.
Thats the same as saying increasing the horsepower in your car make the leather interior more cushiony, they have no correlation.
You are talking about having electrical changes, which could easily be verified by comparing the output of such devices before/after changing the power cords, rather than giving subjective impressions.
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@mrdecibel
I’m not the one claiming power cables can alter soundstage width.
I’ve seen measurements of some gear that benefits from a cleaner power supply, but even the wall power usually didn’t have high enough distortion to matter. But cases can be made.
I’ve seen that Toslink cables can measure differently and that USB cables of longer length are worse (a 3” generic cable beats a 10ft thousand dollar cable every time), but, any decent DAC will reduce the jitter to below audible levels.
However, I’ve never seen any product that benefits from a better power cable, unless the benefit being discussed is better EMI handling, but even then ferrite beads exit. If you have anything to show that power cables do matter, I’d appreciate a link. |
@elizabeth I would like any possible explanation on how a power cord can extend treble response. Indeed, if it sounds better to you, go for it. Just keep in mind it’s all placebo. Here’s a recent news article on that even if knowing something is a placebo, it still works, which covers the bases for those people saying they never believed in it before, but now do. If sugar pills can legit cure illnesses, you can bet it can make you think the bass is better. |
@nonoise We are talking electrical differences by using a “better” power cord, if such a thing worked, the output of the device would be different. I won’t even argue audible differences, if anyone can show measured differences between power cords, I’d like to see it. Here’s some measurements of USB cables, note that after the DAC their performances can be treated as identical, but it clearly shows that you can have lower or higher jitter before the DAC. Although, the differences are with length and not generic vs audiophile-grade. |
@stevecharm
My question is still if anyone can validate @mrdecible’s claims that “upgrading” power cords makes the tweeters extend higher, woofers extend deeper, etc. |
@jea48
“Fullness” is a meaningless term, so not sure (do you mean deep bass?). Timbre is harmonics, so that’s easy.
However, no solid state amp should have timbre anyway, it should only output what the input signal dictates. However all amps have some THD/IMD, but when it’s 80dB down, it’s not important.
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@nonoise
@elizabeth
I’m not aiming to tell anyone who bought a $550 AudioQuest Diamond Toslink cable to return it and get an AmazonBasics one. As I’ve continually stated, I don’t care if you can hear a difference, if you feel a $200 power cord makes an audible improvement, then it was worth it. However, I can say with most certainty that the sound coming from your speakers is 100% identical, and thus advertising such “improvements” and making the layperson believe power cables actually do alter the signal is just how myths get started, same way people think 24/192 sounds better than 16/44.1 (assuming same master).
I’ve asked repeatedly now for an explanation on how a “better” power cord can improve imaging or extend treble response, as @mrdecible claimed, and yet all I get are the same statements that I must be trolling.
You hear what you hear, just like how some people see “the dress” as white/gold when it in fact is blue/black (I saw it as white/gold the first day, then the next morning I saw it as black/blue, totally shocked, and then relived a few days later when it was confirmed blue/black). If you think you aren’t susceptible to placebo, then that’s denial, even people who whole heartedly believe in data/measurements are. |
@gpgr4blu
There may be numerous ways, but I would like you to pick one that doesn’t deal with mains leakage or EMI and explain how a power cable improves it (such as the stated extending of treble response). I would also recommend emailing any of the companies whose products you experience have had improvements with upgraded power cords and see what someone with likely a PhD in mechincal/electrical engineering has as a response.
As I said, 99.999% of devices I’ve seen show no mains leakages and perform to spec with the OEM cables. If you think a better power cord makes it perform better than what it’s spec’d at, more power to ya.
If you think there are actually sonic changes that measurements can’t show, I would also like to hear your reasoning. We aren’t talking personal preference of how one measured speaker is supposed to sound better than another, we are talking simply any changes at all.
If I claimed “upgrading” my car’s battery cable gained me faster acceleration, I’m pretty sure you’d be doubtful too. |
@nonoise
I was on my phone and fell asleep to people reacting to what they see/saw, fell asleep, woke up, and I saw it differently, and never changed back to the incorrect colors no matter when/how I saw it. I really was freaky, as I was most posit e it was white/gold.
All I’m saying is that just like people still see the dress as white/gold even after being shown it’s blue/black, people’s ears also play tricks on them.
But like I said, if you hear a difference, buy all the power cords, brilliant pebbles, WA quantum chips, etc. that you want. Just don’t confuse your reality to actual reality. All it does is deter newcomers. |
@nonoise The reason people saw it differently is not a display white-balance error, but if people thought it was in a store with Daylight lightning or 2700K-3000K lighting, illustrative comparison. Not sure if you’ve seen this optical illusion, I think I’ve linked to in previous threads, it look at this Rubix cube looking object, the “brown” square centered on the top face is the same color as the “orange” square on the shaded face, no matter that you know this, you cannot see these as the same color (if you don’t believe me, zoom in and screen shot them). My realty is that if your upgraded power cord did nothing to the electrical output of the signal, then return it. And no @mkgus, saying a power cord did not alter the sound coming out of your speakers is no way related to the appreciation of a painting. |
@elizabeth
If I can easily show that the sound coming out of your speakers is still the same regardless of “upgrading” power cords, what argument would the “believers” have then?
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@elizabeth the treble has more clarity. easier to understand female vocals, hear cymbals clearly, massed violins sound as a group of separate instruments, not just some clump of noise So less distortion and lower noise? @jea48 Are you unaware that overtones are harmonics? As for interconnects, as long as they are well enough shielded, then yes (at least in regards to audible changes). Do you think recording studios who spend >$10,000 on room treatment also are buying “audiophile” XLR cables? |
@jea48 I don’t have a subscription to access AES papers, so nothing 100% credible, but here are some measurements of RCA cables. Of course it’s not Nordost Odin 2 or anything that ridicoulous. As for the stereo crosstalk, keep in mind even the worse offender is still well below the signal to be considered inaudible, and the 3” generic cable performed similarly/better than the 3” “expensive” silver one. EDIT: Wonderful, just notified some of my comments were removed, even though they break none of the guidelines. Love the open discussion. |
@elizabth
Changing the waveform’s “speed” is thus changing the frequency of the wave.
Now, even though the US power grid is 60Hz, there is of course some allowed deviation, and there is deviation within our home’s wiring too. Clocks in microwaves, ovens, etc. all use the cycle rate to count time, so if one of your clocks runs faster/slower than the others, it likely means the outlet it’s connected to it constantly putting out less/more cycles (or the clock inside the equipment is just faulty).
But no, changing power cords won’t make a 1kHz note suddenly become a 1200Hz one. |
@elizabeth The wave form hits the point in space.. how long does it take to touch pass and leave that point. It cannot be instantaneous.. it takes time. how much time? no one cares?? is it spending a lot of time there from start to finish. or fast? from start to finish. True frequency would make to whole thing faster, but ignore that. for any specific frequency, the wave front time from first point to last.. How long? can it be longer? being fuzzy? or faster, being tight? you have NO IDEA. If you say it cannot . be then you are claiming the wave is an infinite point? no time spread at all? Can it BE fuzzy? you don’t know that either I don’t think you have a fundamental understating of how audio (in real life or in a Hi-Fi system) works. We do know of long a waveform should be (at a given temperature). Here’s a nice calculator for 72°F: http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm A “fuzzy” waveform means distortion/noise. You cannot make a wave faster/slower unless you change the temperature of the room. If you make it “faster” without doing so, all you actually did was change what the actual frequency is. @jae48 I received two emails stating my posts were removed by a moderator, the one talking about how I can’t tell you what food you like, but I can tell you if the output of your speakers changed if you “upgraded you power cords, and another one thanking @stevecharm for the most sensible answer to my question, but then asked him what he thinks about how the OEM cables already provide the performance as stated in specs, and how audible changes could be if distortion and whatnot are already very low, keep in mind the THD of your speakers is magnitudes louder than the THD of a DAC. |
@dentdog
For interconnects, balanced does result in a few dB lower noise floor/distortion, anywhere from 1dB to 10dB usually (depends on the gear used). |
@gpgr4blu I wont argue about what someone else hears or doesn’t hear, but: limited universe of existing measurements that don’t come close to measuring all aspects of human hearing I find this interesting. What do you think measurements can’t capture? I’m not talking preferences, but simply measuring: frequency response, THD, IMD, dynamic compression/linearity, crosstalk, channel mismatch, phase mismatch, noise floor, impulse, spectral decay, etc. |
Thanks for the response. Timbre Timbre is harmonics (overtones), this is easily seen by inputting a signal and seeing what the FFT/distortion graph looks like. I personally believe that no gear should have timbre, it should only be transparent and accurately reproduce the timbre of the instruments in the recording. Of course most speakers have timbre, but any expensive solid-state amp, DAC, or preamp that is competent will not have audible distortion/timbre. Texture of the sound Not sure what this actually means, so no answer. the presence or absence of easily heard vs buried microdynamics in a passage This is how “quick” the gear is. This would be the impulse response and the spectral decay/energy-time curve. imaging For speakers, it’s how the off-axis frequency response is in relation to the on-axis. If you look at the Lateral response graph done by Stereophile, the Vivid Audio Giya G3 for instance have amazing imaging, even at 90° it’s almost identical (the soundstage is super wide too though, so room treatment would be recommended). For amps, DACs, and preamps, this is the channel separation (crosstalk), channel amplitude mismatch, and channel phase mismatch. whether the music sounds natural I’d say the more transparent the more natural, unless you are implying the recording themselves don’t sound natural. As I’ve said though, blind-studies have shown we pretty much all like the same things, but the factor of how much bass and treble we like is a tad different, the amount of bass an audio engineer likes (pretty much no boost) is much lower than the amount of bass the average joe off the street likes, which is about 6dB more. However, the preferences of a smooth frequency response with the best imaging, with low distortion/resonances, etc. can be treated as identical. rhythmic I’d say this is the same as microdynamics, unless your defitnion is different than mine. engages one emotionally or is presented in a mechanical and metronomic fashion Come on dude, what does this even mean? I bet playing Sinatra’s ‘My Way’ on my car’s setup to my NY Italian relatives would be more emotionally engaging than any demo song played on a pair of Revel Ultima Salon2’s being powered by MarkLevinson gear. The one thing I can tell you, which is a fact, is that even if you picked one speaker as a winner in a double-blind listening test, no one can tell you if you will like it sighted, as the brand, looks, and price all are factors, even if we try to disregard them. One of the tests Toole did was compare some nice looking tower speakers to a bookshelf+sub system that was much cheaper and plastic, and once the reviewers could see the product, they actually rated the sound quality as being worse. Since no one listens blind, this is why I always suggest in-home demos/trials, and too look for companies that allow you to do so without charging insane return/restocking fees. Doesn’t matter if it’s the “best” speaker in the world, if it’s from a no-name brand, is not expensive as you thought, and is ugly, you likely won’t buy it. |
@jea48
Any decent amp/DAC/pre will not allow any distortion from your other appliances to affect your gear, unless talking ground loops.
Stereophile (among other resources of course) has measured hundreds/thousands of pieces of equipment other than speakers, and most all preform to spec, and JA isn’t using any $5000 power cords, and he lives in a NY apartment/housing complex if I’m not mistaken. Are you saying you can get better than advertised specs if you upgrade the power cords?
PS Audio sells “high end” power cords, and even he basically said, in his rebuttal to null tests, that their only real benefit is better shielding for EMI, if you look at the measurements of their M700, BHK 300, DirectStream DAC, etc., I would like to see which graph/spec would be improved by using not the standard cord it came with, but the higher end ones they, or other companies, sell, disregarding EMI. |
@jea48
Both videos state it’s the harmonics, so not sure your point.
As for microphones, are you stating you are choosing your gear to make up the deficiencies in the recorded track? If so, that’s the first I’ve heard of that rebuttal for not getting the most transparent gear (other than plain preference). And, that’s simply flawed as the mics used are not the same, so you are just chasing an imaginary problem.
Measuring the accuracy of mics is easy. Put out a signal and see what the mic recorded. My measurement mic for doing DSP for instance came with an individual/unique calibration file to make sure it’s accurate.
Of course a $500 mic will be “cleaner” than a $5 mic, but don’t think that changing power cords or interconnects or speaker wire will negate any deficiencies of the microphone used in the recording.
I also very clearly answered your question, unless talking ground loops, your power amp will not be affected by a light dimmer switch or your neighbor’s refrigerator. |
@mkgus Gauge only effects wattage loss per distance/impedance and damping factor, being better for different frequencies isn’t true, and doesn’t even make sense. https://youtu.be/G0ZQHTzYv9I?t=5m13s Better shielding to EMI, nothing about affecting the sound of the music in regards to tonal quality or quicker transients. |
@elizabeth
Hearing a difference is not the same as there being a difference. |
@thyname
Got a link to that.
Stereophile recorded one sighted listening test at an audio show comparing speaker cables, and the group that preceded expensove cables actually chose the generic cables. The test itself was highly flawed though: sighted, not individual (most not in the sweet spot), not the same gauge wires, etc. |
@geoffkait
Bias is always present for everyone regarding evaluating speakers/DACs/etc., it’s just unavoidable. People claim benefits in going 24/192 over 16/44.1, and the only reason is because you think it’s better, the simple factual truth is 44.1kHz is enough unless your DACs filter is garbage, and 16Bit is enough as it’s almost always a lower noise floor than what you can hear. Same reason DSD has no benefits, and MQA is worse than CD (it’s half lossy by definition).
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@gpgr4blu
Are you claiming you are impervious to placebo? If so, you probably are the only such person alive.
Measurements go out the window once you know what product you are listening to (wether it be the brand, looks, price, or all three).
I can tell you the Dutch & Dutch 8C is a state of the art speaker (besting probably most <$20,000 even passive), and you may agree if you listened double-blind, but then if you didn’t like it when sighted, there’s no point.
I can also tell you that pretty much no person can tell the difference between 320Kbps MP3 and CD or higher, as studies have been done in treated rooms with expensive gear, and the confidence ratings were all 40%-60%. However, you may think you can.
I can’t tell you what speakers/DAC/amps you’ll like in your home, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty of what you’d like during a double-blind study though. |
@thyname I’ve bought stuff on Audiogon, but they were local so I paid them in cash when I met them. None of those people in the study who were musicians/sound engineers could either. So, if they couldn’t on >$20,000 worth of gear in a near perfect room with lots of treatment, what makes you say you can? As I’ve said, hearing a difference doesn’t mean there is one, that’s all I’m trying to prove. Measurements do tell you pretty much everything if you were listening in a double-blind study (average joe likes more bass than a sound engineer), but once you see/know the gear, measurements are far less meaningful. Mesurements dictate the KEF Blade/2 sounds better than anything Wilson puts out, and I’ve recommended people who were eyeing Wilson to look at the KEF Blade/2 and others, and every single one agreed and chose not to get Wilson as they sounded the worse. This is not conclusive data at all, but it is worth stating. @ geoffkait
Some were sound engineers, so I hope they can, for their sake. |
@thyname The PowerPoint version is down, but the AES paper is available. Room: Critical Listening Laboratory of the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in Music Media and Technology Speakers: B&W 802D ($12,000) Amp: Classé CA-5200 ($8000, Class-A at lower wattage) DAC: Grace m906 (>$6000) The only instance where the confidence rating was above 60% for CD vs 320Kbps is one where it was harder to tell with 256Kbps, and that makes no sense. |
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@geoffkait
They scored better than the musicians though...
Any song offered in DSD likely has better mastering, so that’s a factor. I also believe that DXD (format used to make DSD) is just a high-rez PCM anyway, and then it’s converted to DSD on export.
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@doitwithlife
> In both cases THD out reads 0.1% I don't know if thats as low as the unit will report or its the same measured value
So yeah, below audibility for music. I don’t think anyone argues one power cable could have better THD, what people argue is that it makes no difference in having audible changes to the output from your speakers. |
