For what little my opinion is worth, I think the cable mania is largely nonsense. But it does make sense that really cheap cables degrade sound so one ought to at least get a decent cable. As audio enthusiasts we all like gadgetry. Many of the top end cables are really nice so if one has the means to spend a fortune on cables and enjoys having them why not?
Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
845 responses Add your response
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I’m not going to weigh in on power cables, but I would LOVE to be able to read all the deleted posts on here! I think this thread sets a record for voluntary, or IN-voluntary removal of postings. Didn’t the OP ask that people only post their positive observations? Some good stuff DID manage to filter through! |
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Haven't tried upgraded cables, but I know that when I added Furman power/line conditioners to my system the difference was quite noticeable. I'd think anything that is better at getting juice to your components, or getting a cleaner, more stable supply, is going to affect sound somewhat. It seems like the meta-argument around all this is "how much"---how big is the difference, and what's the upper limit of reasonable cost for improved performance? I wouldn't spend more than $50-100 as a test for my mid-range AVR, but if I upgrade to higher end Naim gear I might double that amount and see. |
edstrelow21 posts12-21-2018 3:00amThere is a lot of confusion here between theories and evidence. >>>There certainly is. But the confusion is not really between theories and evidence, it’s between proof and evidence. There is also confusion regarding test results, whether they represent proof or evidence, between mathematical proof and scientific proof, and even confusion regarding what constitutes empirical evidence. There is also confusion regarding why a negative test result does not (rpt not) overturn a theory, which is often claimed for controversial audio devices. edstrelow Merely having a plausible explanation for some phenomenon does not mean it is a correct explanation of that phenomenon, e.g. a suggestion that good cables have less susceptibility to electrical fields around them. Such an explanation requires a measurement to show such reduced susceptibility of that specific cable. >>>>>Actually measurement is not proof, it is only evidence of a theory. And lack of measurements does not disprove the theory. Listening tests are evidence, just like measurements, but not proof. Measurements can be deceiving, for example amplifiers with very low THD Total Harmonic Distortion can sound subjectively worse than amplifiers with much higher (orders of magnitude) THD. Another example: silver measures somewhat better conductivity than copper but can often sound worse subjectively than copper in audio applications. edstrelow Then you need some proof that this interference or reduced interference is what people are actually responding to as an improvement in sound quality, possibly by adding and subtracting such interference to audio signals and seeing what people report. >>>>>As I said there can be no proof, only evidence. People are thus put in the often uncomfortable position of having to decide what’s going on by looking at the evidence and seeing if there is a preponderance of the evidence, there may or may not be. C’est la vie! |
▲▲▲▲ It's unfortunate that even after a warning here from the moderator, users like me can't report a preference and positive experience with premium power cords without being subject to such a juvenile, profane, ignorant and antagonistic response as this. I prefer premium power cords, period. It's a preference that doesn't require defense, and shouldn't be subject to smarmy derision. |
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Better wall receptacles, better plugs, better RFI filtering in the cable itself all improve sound, however do you need to spend thousands or maybe a hundred? I have always been satisfied with "hospital" grade from the receptacle through the cord and leave it there. Do I hear a noticeable difference, not really, but when I plug the cable in it fits much tighter and that was my goal along with have a fairly robust cable that has been tested to a certain standard and knowing it meets it. Cords typically cost around $25.00 and the receptacle costs about $50.00, that's about all I am willing to spend for a good secure fit with decent filtering. The psychological effects are important and for those that this satisfies and they have the money to spend, no harm done. I assume they also have equipment that runs close to three figures when all of the pieces are added up, so why not. |
Theories and evidence ? Plausible explanations ? Measurements ? It doesn’t matter the reasons. Many of us hear these differences ( for whatever the reasons ), and actually conclude on determining preferences. If you have an interest in the subject, and would like to see ( hear ) if these audible differences exist, just try it. If you do not try it, you will not know. Enjoy ! MrD. |
There is a lot of confusion here between theories and evidence. Merely having a plausible explanation for some phenomenon does not mean it is a correct explanation of that phenomenon, e.g. a suggestion that good cables have less susceptibility to electrical fields around them. Such an explanation requires a measurement to show such reduced susceptibility of that specific cable. Then you need some proof that this interference or reduced interference is what people are actually responding to as an improvement in sound quality, possibly by adding and subtracting such interference to audio signals and seeing what people report. |
Very well said, Michael. A lot of this stuff was supposedly settled a long time ago, or so I thought (as well). And as you said, thanks to the mods of A'gon as they've had a rather Herculean task as of late (or was is Ulysses?). 🤔 Anyway, it ranks right up there with slaying something. 🗡 All the best, Nonoise |
I think the first cable referencing sessions I was ever involved in (professionally) would have been Criteria Studios and some of the other private studios, halls and churches in south Florida in the late 1970's. The art of cable making was fairly fundamental back then, and yes, all the cable sounded different and the only debate was what to use where for the best or desired results. Again in the early 1980-87 I was involved in the same sessions at MGAudio, In Touch and Fox Theatre (Atlanta), including the local audiophile clubs. I can remember making power cables for guitar amps for the original "Guitar Works" in Atlanta (not the now school). And, working with audiophile designers on some of our pet projects in the 80's. I started designing audio cable while still in my Atlanta stores and around that time the cable craze had been in swing for a good ten years, both pro & home. I don't remember the "If" cables made a difference was even an issue back then. It was weird to see HEA audiophiles on the internet, years later, create these threads about "If" but it's just as weird to see so many talk without doing any real research on their own. The communities of pro & home listeners of the 80's were far more advanced in the art of testing vs today. Today there are revolving door debates instead of real life testing, it's strange. Issues in audio that have been settled many years ago are brought up today in ignorance and often. People shouting "proof" about things that were common knowledge and common practice, before the amp of the month club and plug & play "discrete" systems became the norm, somehow loosing the intellect. As I have suggested here before the talkers will be identified as talkers and the exploring audiophiles will move on to real pastures or separate themselves from those who have nothing better to do then make noise. My hats off again to the Mods of Agon. Michael Green |
kosst, I make points often, that not everything will show up in measurements, such as this power cord thing. Comparing 2 12 gauge pcs from different manufactures, I hear differences. I have built cables, using the same wire, but different connectors, and I hear differences. The opposite is true, too, same connectors but different wire. Before I determine which is better ( which would be up to me anyway ), I listen for the differences, and they do exist (just like the M&Ms guy and Santa, in the commercial, lol ? I am not sure measurements can reflect these differences. I changed similar values of storage capacitors in an amplifier recently, and I heard differences, and the amp was not that old where the caps needed to be changed. I spent money to upgrade. Before I ever determined which capacitors I preferred, I concentrated on listening to the differences, with my test music. And then there was the " break in " period, which we disagree on as well. I do not know if these capacitors would show differences when being measured. Measurements are necessary, but, in the end, it is listening that's matters most. Peace and joy to all. Enjoy ! MrD. |
No, the AC cord does not carry the audio signal, but it does carry the electrical energy upon which the audio signal is delivered throughout the system and to the speakers. How free of noise and distortion for the audio signal is that energy? It is often said that amp transformers are an extension of the power cord. Is the noisy AC cleaned up in the transformers, or is there a continuation of a burden of distortion that the audio signal must share, resulting in sound degradation that you hear? Why do you install aftermarket caps, crossovers, hook-up wire that are better in materials than original---to improve clarity, I presume? I don’t do these things, but I have addressed AC power and AC cords, vibration, EMI---all changes have brought vast improvements in clarity and increased information. A lot of folks want scientific explanations. Others have had their minds made up for them by authorities---no need to try it for themselves. I regard these positions as obstructive to progress. There is no technical explanation that will satisfy them---just read the hyperbole from a cable manufacturer--still not good enough. For others, there is no room for authentic knowledge--the certainty gained through your own experience. IME, the electrical energy has to made clean and then kept clean. I didn’t know anything---I listened to others and then tried it---successfully. As "NoNoise" just said, not that difficult to wrap your head around. Power cords help remove the noise and distortions from the energy that delivers your signal. Is a six-foot cord enough to do that? In many cases, no, and that is why folks don’t hear enough of a difference. The power ahead of the cord is still too noisy and not good enough for high-performance audio. Dedicated circuits give more power, but not always the clean power needed. A power cleaning appliance, made by, e.g., Equitech, Furman, Richard Gray, Torus, PS Audio, et al, is what is really needed to ensure power that is free of distortion and noise. Your nice cords usually plug into that appliance or shortly thereafter. |
Other factors related to all power cords affecting sound quality, including tricks of the trade, 1. Type of wall outlet 2. Type of wall outlet cover 3. Elevating or suspending power cord 4. Demagnetizing power cord 5. Ionizing or otherwise removing electric static charge 6. Using a contact enhancer on all electrical contacts 7. Choosing a white cable jacket 8. Judging sound quality only after a burn in period of at least 200 hours unless using a burn in device |
It could be technically correct that the power cable is not in the signal chain but it can limit and alter the amps ability to accurately reproduce the signal by messing with the power. It's not that hard of a concept to wrap one's head around. I've experienced a limiting of the soundstage, dynamics and a general softening of the music, obscuring details, ambience and extension as a result. All of that by use of a lesser power cord than what the situation demands. Not in the way that a speaker cable or interconnect can do but in the end, the results were strikingly similar. All the best, Nonoise |
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I've built my AC cords using Furutech Ohno Continuous Cast copper--much better sound clarity over tough pitch copper. Your signal needs a smooth, quiet pathway to travel in. No grain boundaries in OCC metal--less distortion. You must also address the noisy power supply feeding into your AC cords instead of dismissing better cords because of the noisy power lines, etc--have to improve this. Nothing should be ordinary in a high-performance system. |
cleeds Is it because of the better quality AC connectors? Is it the geometry of the cables themselves? I honestly don’t know. And I don’t care. And this being a hobbyist’s group,Add, it is possible the cord used is helping to prevent induced AC voltage and noise from transferring onto nearby ICs. I’m not required to satisfy anyone’s demands for technical proof of any kind.Add me to that camp! I really don’t care why it does what it does. There are plenty of credible theories out there to read for those that want the why. I am currently running early 1960s Amperex 6922 PQ white label tubes in my Sonic Frontiers preamp. To my ears I prefer how my audio system sounds with the tubes over current production Sovtek or EH 6922 tubes. Measurements? On my Hickok 6000a tube tester they measure the same. Measure the same??? Then they have to sound the same. Measurements don’t lie. Right?! Jim |
A couple of previous posts have mentioned geometry - i.e. how the actual cable is made. Adapting conductor geometry has been around for a long time - think Kimber Kable - they use a complex braided geometry. Cardas has been using a complex geometry on their TOTL speaker cables for a few years AntiCables use braided geometry on their power cables and a Helix Geometry on their IC’s Why does changing the geometry of the conductors make a difference? - It reduces the noise induced between the conductors within the cable itself. See http://www.siemon.com/uk/white_papers/02-03-22-emi.asp This is not new science, but it’s effect has been ignored by most cable companies - probably due to the expense of manufacture - it’s so much easier to produce a cable where all the conductors are of the same length and - simply use higher quality copper or silver to improve on performance. I have spent the last 5 years trying to create an improved power cable... - started with Furutech and DH Labs bulk cable + good connectors - then tried a Braided geometry - Finally settling on a Helix (i.e. spiral) geometry For details on how to build a helix cable see : http://image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-power-cable.html Another technique I learned along the way is that the performance of a cable improves when a larger gauge conductor is used for the neutral conductor. This applies to both Braided and Helix geometries AND all other cables in an audio system I have tried building the Helix geometry from... - household Romex - Home depot extension cords - high quality silver plated copper wire All three resulted in significantly better sound quality than simply using quality connectors and pricey bulk cable from Furutech and DH Labs. So based on my tinkering I believe that GEOMETRY is the most important feature of any cable - Power, Speaker or IC’s. Another "geometry" that also can be very effective is ensuring there is a space between the conductors - it also reduces induced noise. - it can be very effective for IC’s and even speaker cables - However, power cables can present some challenges that are more difficult to overcome. I have demonstrated my Helix cables on many systems - from - A $300 Yamaha mini system - to systems over $50,000 Each time the owners were very surprised with the levels of clarity and the new depth and breadth of the image produced, but most of all the noise free background. They even improved both the picture and the sound on a $50 DVD player I use them on my TV’s, where both picture quality and sound are noticeably enhanced. So, if you are shopping around for a great sounding power cable - look at the geometry of the cable and see if it has a less "convetional" geometry before parting with your hard earned cash Regards - Steve |
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I got into upgraded power cables mostly for aesthetics. It didn’t make sense to me to have a rack-full of equipment using stock 6- to 8-foot power cords, when the dedicated lines that serve the system are located directly behind the rack. So I bought upgraded cables in custom lengths, and the installation looks a lot cleaner for it. I also think it sounds better. Is that because there’s no longer excess cable stuffed behind the rack? Is it because of the better quality AC connectors? Is it the geometry of the cables themselves? I honestly don’t know. And I don’t care. And this being a hobbyist’s group, I’m not required to satisfy anyone’s demands for technical proof of any kind. |
Mkgus wrote, in response to my list of desirable power cord characteristics, 13. Cable constructions of multiple gauge wires that influence the way high, medium and low frequencies propagate through the power cable. >>>>He was thinking that multiple gauge wires would help the propagation of high, medium and low frequencies so he was thinking they were audio frequencies, obviously. Not noise harmonics. Cut me some slack, Jack. |
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I have really appreciated @elizabeth 's comments on how you listen on this thread. I recently replaced my entire system after a lot of A/B testing at a dealer who left me alone in the room to listen but when I got it all home I wasn't happy, I was hyper critical and trying to work out what the weak link was, Cables? DAC? Room? Placement?. I went away on business for a week, came back and was listening to Hilary Hahn Plays Bach and losing myself in the sheer beauty and suddenly realized it sounded totally different to how it had a week ago. The problem wasn't the room or the equipment, it was me. I'm a computer engineer, over analytical and deeply cynical i.e. desperately trying to listen to the SQ of new equipment rather than the music. After a trip away I 'forgot' to listen critically and got in the zone - what a world of difference. In summary, to me audio connects are like night and day - I hated optical in my system and love Chord Clearline COAX. Speaker cables are a smaller difference to me but I can hear a difference. I strongly believe power cables shouldn't make a difference from an engineering point of view but I will at least try BLE Design and see if A/B I can hear a difference (I have PS Audio hospital grade socket and a Panamax power conditioner). |
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OP, there are a lot of threads about breaking in cables, including power cables. Your power cable attached to your player was broken in through use (called burn-in or conditioning), whereas your cable that came with your new player was not. Your player will benifit from a burn-in period, too. Do a search on burning in cables, breaking in cables or conditioning cables in the forum and you will get a lot of hits. Here is an example: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cable-cooking-burnin |
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