If you want to think cables make a huge difference in sound fine...but why pay up to $70,000 for speaker wire?
You can buy 38 lbs of 99.99% bullion silver for $10,000 or 4000 lbs of 99.99% bullion copper.
Buying a pair of 12 foot $5,000 wire is obserd it costs like $30 to make and WBT connectors are also highly inexpensive to make too.
Why do you guys shell out money on a clear fact that you guys are insecure about using low priced stuff and these people know that and take advantage of that.
You see unlike many posts here which are ~~just sayin~~~ I am trying to bring real science into the equation, I sure can not pass a electrical enginner exam,,but i can read and figure out some of the gist,,,gist is, silver is just a bit superior to pure copper in REAL terms,,but there is a ~~~imaginary construct~~~ called SIEMENS,,which is hard, if not impossible to measure,,Now grant it,,I have no silver yet in my system,,its all on order from ebay. In 3 weeks I will have silver going on, and will report back , honestly/fairly/whats going on...The testing A/B copper to silver may take some months,,but i will have at least a prliminary report on the ~~~Zing factor~~~ with Silver. I have 1/2 round sterling silver 20 ft piece,,that will go for the top MT section of my Thor MTM,,the lower midbass will have copper, as that midbass lower FQ's will not benifit much from silver. I am asking the ebay seller about the square and full round,,perhaps I should have purchased the square or full round for interconnects/speaker wires,,the pure copper RCA females are on the way,,the male RCA ends i am @ $32 each,,i have in wish cart as my mod budget is blown sky high at the moment,,,don't have a money tree in my backyard....,,all these pure copper/sterling silver mods are in the making,,and will take 3 months to purcahse, build/complete testing. My test results will not be biased not fraudlent, = No snakeoil from this audio review guy, ~~ just straight shooting, honest draw on the gun. As I say i have so many mods going on, new M silver/gold supremes, silver gold, silver oil, etc Mundorfs,,+ new opamps for CD17 cayin,,,IOW I have to place the silver wires 1st inn system before new opamps and new caps. After I hear silver,,then i change caps,, after i listen critical,,then i change the caps,,, and so on, so forth,,this way i can determine which mod has made more SIEMES come aline in the system. Siemens to me is the smallest unit , which has both a real anda imaginary quality of transference. Its this imaginary of ~~ zing~~ element which i think, by imploying Silver, will make alive the higher fq's in our systems.
It will be dif to make my mod reviews solid, as refering to the idea ~~all things being equal~~~, hopefully i can determine which is snakeoil and which produced more ~~Siemens~~ or as i call it ~~Silver Zing Factor~~ aka SZF
although silver possess onlya small % greater conductivity vs copper, note the section under COMPLEX RESISTIVITY and CONDUCTIVITY,, scroll down you will see the section,,note the word SUSCEPTIVITY
Note the word SIEMENS, that is a key word here, although silver vs copper are very close,,my guess is what is the nature of the electron flow inside silver vs copper,,,My guess is the SIEMENS inside the silver flow are more happy = more zing,,,to the electrons vs the electrons inside the copper flow. Remember there is a socalled ~~~Imaginay~~~ nature to electrical conductivity,,called SIEMENS,,,very hard to measure,,,which is why i prefer silver sterling as my prefered choice vs copper cables/wires. You can make your own $50,000 cables/speaker wires for under $500 fora complete system, 3 pairs interconnects, 6 ft biwire silver speaker wires, all under $500, vs the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ snakeoil brands.
I was about to makea new topic dealing with this idea of spending$$$$$$$ on supposedly *new super high tech pure blahblahblah~~~ speaker/cable connects...I see funaudio has stated his idea very clean and has cleanly exposed the fraud. which brings me to My latest researchm,,as you guys know i try to be on ~~~The Cutting edge~~~ of all tweaks/mods..my mother was german, my great great great grandfather was Horace Bushnell, america's greatest thinker,,and so i have this knack at looking at all angles, figuring out what is best of the best. Here goes what i just discovered this morning,,so it is indeed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~BREAKING NEWS FLASH~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pure 100% copper RCA male and RCA female jack ends can be purchased off ebay. Thats step one in my $100 connects that will blow away any and every $50,000 interconnects in a shootout, ,.OK you have the RCA connects, now purcahse STERLING SILVER (a cheaper route vs pure silver) say 1.5mm thickness half round (1/2 round is cheaper vs round) connect the 1.5 MM 1/2 round sterling silver to each male rca connect,,,now replace your 2 cent RCA gold color stereo female jack plug with PURE COPPER RCA female jack,,,yeah look at your $50K amp, jadis, Mac, Krell etc ARC, etc etc ETC,,all have those 2 cent gold color trash jacks, including Jadis's 500 monos which are $50K + retail...ohh Jadis how could you.. Now for speaker wire, use same sterling silver, 1.5 MM thickness or wrap 2 strands together for extra transition of electron flow. There you have it,,,all can be done for under $500 and can shoot out any and all super high end cables/speaker wires in a NY minute. Now i need to figure if the 1/2 round is like a 1/5MM cut in half,,maybe better spend tyhe extra few bucks and get the FULL ROUND, = more condunctance. The Tweak Guy who won;t lead you astray.
You guys are really funny. Like, this is like being on the Flat Earth forums, where you see people convinced the Earth is flat. Just, it’s like a Kool Aid that’s being sipped.
Could it be that you have a passionate love for music, and it’s fun spending a lot of money to get " higher quality " speaker wires and better sound?
And that in actuality, you want so bad to believe that music can get more and more Accurate each year, that it’s just a never ending cycle of upgrading to get as close to the real thing as possible?
I get it. Upgrading speakers, audio cables and power wire, etc, processors and power conditioners and etc?
It’s a hobby. It’s something to do and you can spend hours fantasizing about new equipment.
I could probably hook up some Audioquest And MTI wiring, and "hear" a difference. I could probably sip the kool aid and think something is better. In many times in life, when there’s a will there’s a way. I assume though if you got me double blind tested, I wouldn’t be able to distinguish the fidelity though.
Like Scientology, the Flat Earth cult, etc, a good part of people just wants to break people free of placebo and incorrect stuff, because it’s frustration.
I hope one day you guys get some courage to do a truly 100% no possible error of scientific investigation in to this, and learn a lesson about life.
I kind of went through this right away when I entered the hobby, but I pretty quickly caught on to the big picture of the audio and video world.
Some people are faster than others to learning things like this in life.
It’s an important lesson to learn.
Good luck guys!
I said my peace, and I respect all of you.
Figure it out,
I’ll probably be done harassing you guys now.
Burn away those audio cables so they break in well!
Have you ever listened to a $100. interconnect in a high performance system, then listened to a $2000. interconnect in the same system.
You will hear the difference. When building a system, everything matters as has often been stated here over and over.
I do';t know what stated this stratospheric pricing of cables many years ago BUT the higher end ones do make a noticeable difference. especially if the rest of your equipment is at a similar level.
I just replaced a 20 yr. old $2000. interconnect with a $4000.interconnect and there is a big difference. There are things I never heard before the upgrade now available and all the audiophile buzz words can be used in describing the new "sound". Worth $2000. ?? Depends on the buyers perspective and desires.
ps. Don't justify raw costs with the selling price. If you knew the material cost of everything you bought, you would never buy anything. Since you trust billion dollars companies blindly, have you flown on any 737 MAX jets lately? I think they are grounded for some design flaws.
If AudioQuest charged $350 for their Dragon Zero and Bass which would be 100% fair, I might buy it. Some would call me ridiculous considering I could get the same audio fidelity from $1 a foot belden. Paying 1,000% premium for something that probably doesn’t mean anything. But I’m OCD, and I like the idea that I have something high quality in my system. But to tell you the truth. Belden audio and video wires is my thing. Even if I wanted "better", I couldn’t find it, and would keep the Belden. And it makes sense they would be the best. They’re a $3 billion dollar company that sells their wire to NASA and all of the commercial wiring industry; the stuff that people record and operate the media I see and hear with. It makes sense that a scientific company would make the best wiring as well as charging $1 a foot; as the no nonsense company probably would have the best anyways. I don’t go by price tag. I trust the $3 billion dollar company with hundreds of millions of dollars in research an development. Not the company that makes a few million dollars a year selling components they hand made down by the river in a van.
Well, I think the OP makes a very rational point, one that I completely agree with. The cost vs. benefit proposition goes completely off the rails with uber-expensive cabling. I have Triode Wire Labs and Cerious Technology ICs's and power cables and they are pretty pricey but to my ears worth it. However, I am not tempted at all to move up the IC food chain. Belen and Blue Cables make excellent budget cabling, used by professional studios. I have Supra Ply 3.4 speakers cable which is very affordable and performs well and very affordable.
What blows me away are folks that spend their cash on cheap crystals to put on their components or silly dots to affix to their windows expecting some SQ improvement. Same thing with the "fuse-heads" who salivate over some new "colored" fuse that will dramatically change the sound of their system. Price is no bother for these adherents, but I would suggest that virtually all who adopt these pricey tweaks are victims of confirmational bias, the effect of which is more profound the more expensive the tweak is.
At any rate, I can't possible see how you can can flame the OP or call him a troll on this particular post. He has the better end of the argument.
When he set his sights on audiophile gadgets James Randi first offered 1M to a customer of mine if he could pass the double blind test for the Intelligent Chip. That was way back in 2005. Negotiations eventually broke down, however, just as they did later with Fremer and the cable Challenge. Who knows why someone who made his name going after dowsers and spoon-benders wanted to go after audiophiles? My guess is he wanted some action. I was the subject of five - count em! - of his Newsletters. One of his droogies challenged me to a judo fight on board Randi’s yacht during a retreat in the Caribbean. Too much fun! By the way, Randi got a lot of his $$$ from Johnny Carson.
By the way, I don’t think you’re a troll. I know you are.
Well. James Randi used to offer $1,000,000 for proof of proof of the supernatural, and he put out the reward for people claiming speaker wire mattered in sound fidelity, and no one would do it. Not Pear Anjou? Or the reviewer who reviewed the $10k speaker wire from Pear Anjou as causing your feet to do the "proevrbial" tap dancing. He stopped doing the offer recently. I think he retired.
There still are several companies that offer $10k+ to prove the supernatural.
Go claim your reward! But be sure you break in your billions of years old copper and silver speaker wiring though.
😉
Now I’m getting trollish. I was hoping to open up discussion about this, but all I received was anger and name calling like "Troll" ...
But.
Well, there’s a sucker born every minute. People used to literally buy snake oil for medicine. I suppose this is the 21st and 20th century version of people buying snake oil medicine. Stuff like this has been going on for millenniums. The tendency to buy on to this stuff must be hereditary and gene orientated like how some people genetically are more susceptible to sip the kool aid and join cults.
snake oil/ˈsnāk ˌoil/nounINFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
a substance with no real medicinal value sold as a remedy for all diseases.
a product, policy, etc. of little real worth or value that is promoted as the solution to a problem."the new tax plan was denounced as snake oil"
Mitch2, copper is billions of years old. It comes from the collision of 2 neutron stars in a binary system or in other words it’s stars that have exploded in to a super nova and failed to turn in to a black hole leaving neutron stars that combine at a 1/3 the speed of light, and create precious metals. 50 year old copper? Are you seriously kidding me? If $30k AudioQuest Dragon Zero and Dragon Bass were $100, would you buy them still? If your MIT Oracle Matrix SHD 120 Rev. 2 Speaker Interface didn’t cost $40k, and were $200, would you buy them? Audio cable theories on fidelity in wires aside, would anyone buy these wires if they only just costed $300? And I’m talking introductory prices. Not discounted. If their original pricing were to have been $100-200 for each of them. Because with 100,000% margins, they’d still make 1,000% margins on those 3 wires I listed if they changed those prices. I’m just saying you’re all getting ripped off. Do they sound "better" to you? Fine, whatever, but at least don’t get ripped off. If AudioQuest charged a few hundred dollars, or MIT wire charged a few hundred dollars, they never would have been considered "high fidelity", because of the expensive M.S.R.P. (manufacturer suggested retail pricing) dollar effect, affects your perception. mitch22,073 posts10-26-2019 8:53am Seriously - what a sanctimonious pile of crap. What makes you all-knowing? How about those of us who can afford expensive wire, have heard and owned expensive wire, yet don’t buy into the hype and choose to build our own speaker cable out of much less expensive materials, such as 50-year old copper? I suppose we are not worthy because our systems or hearing are somehow deficient....right? Standard playbook stuff.
It is because there are people who lack the skills, education, and experience to earn, acquire, and develop the wealth aka "expendable income" to purchase these products.... yada, yada.....
Seriously - what a
sanctimonious
pile of crap. What makes you all-knowing? How about those of us who can afford expensive wire, have heard and owned expensive wire, yet don't buy into the hype and choose to build our own speaker cable out of much less expensive materials, such as 50-year old copper? I suppose we are not worthy because our systems or hearing are somehow deficient....right? Standard playbook stuff.
I think what I meant is, that $30,000 Audioquest Dragon Zero and Bass, would cost $300 if there weren’t suckers to pay $30k on $50 cost to build wiring.
I think you guys get embarrassed that you spend so much, or can’t stand the thought that you’re getting taken, that you somehow justify spending so much by the fact that "you can" and that you’re "financially secure" enough, that you don’t mind spending so much
It’s this simple= Speaker Wire get up to 100,000%+ mark ups. Speakers get up to 10,000%+ markup. People pay this, so it’s reserved for the elite. If people weren’t willing. The prices for the same product would drop 99%+. It’s that simple. And I’m not exaggerating.
You can justify it all you want.
You’re guys OCD that you aren’t hearing your music well enough force your insecurities to sip the kool aid and waste money.
This cult is hysterical. You guys actual defend 100,000% mark ups on Audioquest cabling.
I think 60 minutes should do a piece on the mark up scams, and the people who matter, the cool people, will laugh and laugh
Stop justifying your purchases, and "Liking" such scams.
let me get this straight; I work and therefore earn my income and don't have the intelligence, wherewithal to purchase whatever it is I want, audio or otherwise? Some would argue, a "zip cord" used for audio (speaker cables) would be a waste.
From a purely economic standpoint it is great to see someone spend $70K on cables. That $70K is not sitting in a bank but distributed into the economy were it can be spent many more times over and do a lot of good. I know the bank can invest that $70K but I see the economic benefits as being greater when people spend.
elizabeth"Why does it matter to anyone, that expensive stuff exists? Cheap stuff does also. YOu have no need to buy expensive stuff unless you want to. So why care???"
It is because there are people who lack the skills, education, and experience to earn, acquire, and develop the wealth aka "expendable income" to purchase these products and so they have a need to criticize, attack, and insult that from which they feel they have been denied or excluded and they think they're values, standards, and preferences should be accepted, adopted, and embraced by all it is a very self centered, self absorbed, self righteous perception they have on many things.
Excellent post and discussion. Sorry to see so many had their feelings hurt. Myself, I'll never throw down over $200 for a pair of speaker cables. Electronics and engineering, that's a different story all together. Randy-11: You da man brother....
I am not familiar with intricacies of mattress architecture but I do know that some are more comfortable to sleep on than others. I do not have statistics how expensive which one was but more comfortable are worth more to me, regardless of what manufacturer’s cost was. It is on me to decide how much it is worth to me.
Of course we are going around and around in circles. That is the whole point of the circle. It goes around and around.
It is not hard for you to declare victory. You make a premise, support it by skewed/assumed facts, change what I say and say it was what I said, predict what would happen although it rarely has happened in similar scenarios, and judge it all by yourself. How could you lose?
Good news for the rest of us is that those who do not mind paying $70 000 for a speaker cable, still have options.
Bad news for many is that albuterol story is actually true.
If less companies then prices go up? When there’s a whole, it’ll be filled. If things change, then a factory direct company will show up to change things. And if there is collusion? And they threaten the factory direct company? Then it’s legally wrong. With out factory direct internet? We’d be screwed.
We shouldn't be worried about less companies existing.
I assume unless there's collusion, they will compete like a fair market should.
Okay. Hrm. Now I feel like we’re going around and around in circles. I do appreciate the fun debate, and I’m declaring my self the winner. Lol. Lower Margins = more volume and still profitable enough to exist Exotic = cheaper, since lower margins and still profitable since higher volume Less companies like leas fish in the seas and more to feed on little minnows, more volume, and appropriate prices.
It’s like the sleep number scam. A $1,500 C2 = same air base as all the mattresses and 2" of plastic like poly foam
A $5,700 iLE uses 6" of poly foam with the same air base.
3rd party foams. Less than a $50 cost to produce difference.
Polyurethane Foam = the cheapest foam to manufacture if I’m not mistaken?
Buy a 3" radium organic talalay latex topper for $400 from sleepez.fom Tempurpedic 3" topper for $300 from tempurpedic.com And a 6" cotton zippered mattress case for $200 $2,500 8" c2 now 14" now = better than the 6 inches or 12" of cheap polyurethane foam for $5,700.
And not to mention, air chambers are a scam. Unless the density or ILD (impression load deflection - The amount of weight or pressure required to compress the mattress to that extent of 25% or 1 inch) or density changes, it’s the same thing. It’s like a pool tube with cheap poly foam that you could build for like $200. Lol.
Use leggat and platt individual pocketed coils. All the $5,000 mattresses use those. sell those and the mattress cases are at mattresses.net or it’s called the Arizona Mattress store.
I’ve posted, too much in depth knowledge on industry stuff.
"With less fish in the sea, with 4 or 5-10 wiring companies, there volume would go up instead of being spread around..."
Check the price of Albuterol inhalers. Unless something changed recently, there is only three manufacturers in the U.S.A. There used to be a few more. It used to cost $15 or so.
Well, as much as I actually appreciate Taurus, it is far from the best deal or best bang for the buck for me. It is lacking a few things and has a few too many. I am not making it up, it is really like that. It ends up being similar situation with speakers, cables, etc. By the way, I wonder what a margin on that car was when new. It was surely less than 50000% but it also sold in much higher numbers than any of the speakers ever will. If you build the best-selling car, the game is different than if you build a very rare one. Margins are higher on exotics. Kind of like on $250 000 speakers.
I do own a car. A 95,000 mile 2006 ford Taurus. Lol. It gets me around! The best deal and the best bang for the buck are the same terminology, lol, so both?
I’m just saying, the final product on all audio and non- audio wiring, speakers, amplifiers, processors and receivers would be the same thing.
Less margins in this case would still be same product.
Expensive would be cheaper prices if no one would pay these exorbitant prices, but the same product, if people weren’t willing to pay the big bucks of the companies taking 100,000%+ margins on wiring, and the other stuff. It wouldn’t degrade the quality. With less fish in the sea, with 4 or 5-10 wiring companies, there volume would go up instead of being spread around by like 1,000+ companies, so the same buyers to fewer companies, and the $25,000-$50,000-$250,000 people would buy the $300 AudioQuest Dragon Zero and Bass, so there would be more volume to deal with less margins. They wouldn’t be going out of business any time soon.
People always want to feel quality, irregardless if it’s $300. Whether that’s not much money to some people, or a lot. If it's exotic high end Quality at $300? Who cares about the price? As long as it’s super high quality.
Also, I don’t think you guys are idiots. Just careless with your money is all in the audio cult, lol.
Huh, I guess I need to emphasize that there is a subtype of people who are not focusing on the "best deal" or "bang for the buck". They are more focused on the final product. I suspect that those who buy very expensive cables fall into this category.
My post was about the thread that mentioned actual amplifier model. I forgot details but it does exist. Again, it might have not been 5-channel but it was probably not mentioned as the topic was not in that direction.
So, chances are that what you want exist. If it does, why do you care about other things?
The margins are what makes something a good deal or not to the buyer. If a company takes 300% margins on speakers, then you get more bang for your buck as it's $400 on $100 to build instead of you paying 3,000% on $100 so it's $3,100 to you. It's all the same product, it just equals more value with less margins, or as the money isn't invisibly and magically going to the speaker building company or wire building company instead of your pocket.
Lower margins = cheaper prices, and more bang for your buck on the same product
They can exist. And I don’t want to bring up the $10k amplifier challenge by Richard Clarke, but 10s of thousands or people are yet to identify amplifiers with the same gain and same frequency response as to sounding different.
If you want .001% THD instead or .01% and a higher dampening factor to take it to 11? Fine. But most people don’t care about taking it to 11 (Spinal Tap reference) and a $350 7 channel 1,000 watt rms factory direct amplifier can exist when a 6 channel car audio amplifier exists on 3rd party sites, so 2 people taking margins instead of 1 on the factory dirext, and cost to build margins, so if a car audio company with 3rd party sellers can sell 6 channel 1,000 watt RMS amplifiers for $200? I’m sure the factory direct audio world can do it, too. Especially since car amplifiers and home theater amplifiers are so similar.
I forgot what thread it was here on audiogon, but people were mentioning what you are asking for. A couple of hundred dollar amplifiers with lots of power and, allegedly, very good sound. It might have not been five channel, though.
Apparently the D3004-6600 was, too "neutral" and not "lively" enough, but good enough for the Anat Reference II at $100,000 which won awards for the best speaker ever at the time.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
