To each his own with what sounds good and what doesn't....but the facts are when it boils down to it you're buying stranded copper that costs cents per foot when wiring like wel signature costs $1000s per foot....many wires cost their price in gold....a 20 foot pair of silver plated copper wel signatures costs nearly 4 pounds of bullion gold.
Why pay so much?
If you want to think cables make a huge difference in sound fine...but why pay up to $70,000 for speaker wire?
You can buy 38 lbs of 99.99% bullion silver for $10,000 or 4000 lbs of 99.99% bullion copper.
Buying a pair of 12 foot $5,000 wire is obserd it costs like $30 to make and WBT connectors are also highly inexpensive to make too.
Why do you guys shell out money on a clear fact that you guys are insecure about using low priced stuff and these people know that and take advantage of that.
How do you guys let yourself taken advantage of?
You can buy 38 lbs of 99.99% bullion silver for $10,000 or 4000 lbs of 99.99% bullion copper.
Buying a pair of 12 foot $5,000 wire is obserd it costs like $30 to make and WBT connectors are also highly inexpensive to make too.
Why do you guys shell out money on a clear fact that you guys are insecure about using low priced stuff and these people know that and take advantage of that.
How do you guys let yourself taken advantage of?
Showing 28 responses by funaudiofun
You know what I don't get? Is everyone called me a troll, when in reality, no one really said or could refute that $1,000+ cables are using like $10 worth of copper, $10 worth of silver, and really fancy $3 worth of cable jackets, and expensive fancy connectors that cost like $1 to make. Why not respond to that. Don't call me a troll, if you can't refute the cost to build, and the cost of sale. |
Belden Brilliance. An almost $3 billion dollar company who sells their products to NASA. If I'm not mistaken, 99.99% pure copper. If I'm not mistaken, inductance is very "important" in a wire along with capacitence. $1 a foot in some places. Get some tech flex cable jackets, wbt connectors, and for like $100, you have arguably the best speaker wire on the planet. They could open up a company, and sell it for $1,000 a foot, and no one would know. Price = quality is a joke. https://catalog.belden.com/index.cfm?event=pd&p=PF_1313A https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://info.belden.com/hubfs/resou... |
Glupson - I do believe that was a ridiculous rebuttal, lol. You just said you think people are willing to be ripped of and like it. If you asked people if they would be willing to get their wiring for 99% off? 99% of people would say the affirmative, H*** Yeah. You’re socialized entitlement based theory of giving cable companies gifts to "feel better" I do believe is ridiculous. 5 or 6 companies that charge no more than $300 for 10 foot wiring, and that would be crazy exotic speaker wiring and the best of the best, they’d still make hand over fist since they’d cost $30 to make, and that’s 1,000% margins. I think 99% of the audio world would say they are okay with this. And the fact that people are willing to knock on doors to get these ridiculously priced wiring is the exact fact of why they charge these prices. Because people are willing to do this. I think I've made a pretty solid, air tight argument for affordable audio. I think you're in the minority in opposing my theory. In fact, I think people will find what you're saying is ridiculous. No offense. Just giving you a heads up. |
I fail to see how if you’re rich, that you can’t be taken advantage of, lol. And while you’re at it, because you can afford to spend $70k on wire, why not buy a $500 latte, or a $1,000 12" subway meatball sandwich, because in terms of margins, that’s still much lower than cost to build hifi wiring. glupson2,649 posts10-23-2019 9:15pm "...why pay up to $70,000 for speaker wire?"Just because one can. "How do you guys let yourself taken advantage of?"How often are people who can afford $70 000 speaker cables actually taken advantage of? |
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Just say I’m a troll, when in reality, I’m just trying to create awareness that I don’t think people have as much as they think they do. Belden probably spent 100 times the amount on researching and developing Belden Brilliance than another nitch company did with theirs, because they’re nearly an S & P 500 company. I don’t see them charging 100,000%+ margins to recuperate research and development. In fact, they charge a small amount, and going by capacitance and inductance which no other company lists, I’m going to assume they are of the best. Most of these companies are mom and pop stores, and their research and development is pale in comparison to the money belden spends of research and development. I just fail to see, how people justify their purchases based on paying $3,500+ per 10 feet of wire in margins due to what? Research and development? because "they sound good"?, which is subjective, and 100% of the time, it’s just because they look pretty, and have pretty wiring schematics, and since they charge a lot, they must be high quality. I’m not a troll. So if you don’t have an argument to refute mine besides saying troll,; then don’t. Because I’m simply just bored, and trying to bring awareness to this. If you think I’m right, and if you are one who cringes on using lamp power cable to hook up ones components, because I can relate. Why not just simply use Belden for everything including power cable?, simply because I feel better, too, having "high quality" in between my components, and I can relate to OCD. And I’m assuming the best is a company who deals with NASA. Even if it weren’t, I’d choose something bulk that was high quality, because I don’t believe the hype either. It doesn’t mean I don’t like nice things. Not only is belden probably the best, but if the best was $10 a foot, I’d still buy it. But at some point in time, even if you have the money, you’ve got to draw a line in the sand, between you, and corporate greed. I don’t care if you’re a millionaire; it’s still annoying to be taken advantage of. |
I do own a car. A 95,000 mile 2006 ford Taurus. Lol. It gets me around! The best deal and the best bang for the buck are the same terminology, lol, so both? I’m just saying, the final product on all audio and non- audio wiring, speakers, amplifiers, processors and receivers would be the same thing. Less margins in this case would still be same product. Expensive would be cheaper prices if no one would pay these exorbitant prices, but the same product, if people weren’t willing to pay the big bucks of the companies taking 100,000%+ margins on wiring, and the other stuff. It wouldn’t degrade the quality. With less fish in the sea, with 4 or 5-10 wiring companies, there volume would go up instead of being spread around by like 1,000+ companies, so the same buyers to fewer companies, and the $25,000-$50,000-$250,000 people would buy the $300 AudioQuest Dragon Zero and Bass, so there would be more volume to deal with less margins. They wouldn’t be going out of business any time soon. People always want to feel quality, irregardless if it’s $300. Whether that’s not much money to some people, or a lot. If it's exotic high end Quality at $300? Who cares about the price? As long as it’s super high quality. Also, I don’t think you guys are idiots. Just careless with your money is all in the audio cult, lol. |
Glupson - I made a compelling argument on price gauging and margin rip offs, and you're fighting for margins? Do you own a audio company? The market wouldn't shrink from 5 to 6 speaker wiring or loud speaker companies. I'm sure there'd still be 10+, and not 2. You're fighting for margins when the industry would still put out Grade A+ stuff. It wouldn't change things. You'd still have exotic wiring and exotic speakers. "Did you include the price of a garage, tools, all the wasted material while you are perfecting a skill, time, injuries? For some of us, buying a finished speaker is the cheapest option. Even at whatever price you deem exorbitant." Are you serious? You backed up margins of speaker companies? By saying that a garage, tools and waste materials amount to 50,000+% margins? I'm saying that these companies like B&W, Revel, etc, should cost a premium for drivers, but since what they design any idiot can do it in a garage? Somehow warrants the margins? You can buy a a kit from Madisound.com right now with 3 way berrilyum scan speak kits for $3,500, and get someone to build it for $1,000. Right now you can do that. And those are similar drivers used in the Anat Reference 2, except newer and better and Illuminator Beryllium based. Or, as what should happen now, is a company spends $1,750 whole sale 50% margins on drivers, spend $500 to put it together and build the cabinets, and charge $6,000. By the way, that's an extreme example. Those are some of the most expensive drivers in the world. Many $10,000+ speakers use $50 3rd party tweeters, etc. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/3-way-speaker-kits/b741-scan-speak-kit-pair-by-peter-noerbaek/ |
Okay, lol, I feel like your being funny and egging me on now, lol. In the purest intentions, $30,000 speaker wire for $300, with 1,000% margins, $100,000 speakers for $4,000 with 1,000% margins, and processors and amplifiers for no more than $1,000 for 1,000+% margins would be not only good for the market with the volume over high margins low sales, would not only still be very profitable for 7 or 8 companies (we don’t need more - it’s either the best, or it isn’t), but high end audio would be available to the $50,000 a year salesman who works 50+ hours a week, and who would love to listen to all the notes of the music, the "way music is supposed to be heard" in terms of notes, etc. And if you want to just "buy expensive" components, then spend the money you’d save on buying hi fi components at a 99% reduction to buying for other people who would like it. I’m sure the expensive thrill would be more thrilling this way. It’s making the hobby not fair by being cavalier and saying "I want expensive". Everyone else is screwed by willing to pay these components weight in literally gold. It’ll still look and feel and sound expensive, I assure you! With out all the light wallet, and the wife getting mad at you! Nothing would change! And buying for the sake of expensive? Take the money you’d save by buying the less expensive gear which would be the same, and invest it in the stock market like Belden, lol, or Harmon Kardon. Buying something for the sake of saying I bought something expensive is ridiculous. These companies will still exist! You don’t need to pay these high prices! These items will still be there! They don’t need these 100,000% margins to exist! - Andy |
I’m just saying, that it’s a herd like mentality. That if several people are willing to pay $1,000-50,000 for wiring that companies will sprout up to take advantage of consumers fears that they aren’t hearing the music and movies the way they supposed to. If no one would shell out $30,000 for the high end Audioquests Dragon Zero and Bass, they wouldn’t disappear like how your favorite fast food company would disappear if they had to cut margins 99%. They would be out of business in 1 week. But if the hifi crowd refused to spend money on anything that weren’t 100% margins or less - there would still be AudioQuest Dragon Zero and Bass, they’d just charge $300 instead of $30,000. They can afford to not have these margins. For the ignorant audiophile ( no offense - just a lack of knowledge and information and understanding of whats going on), they don’t know this. And would many companies close doors? Probably. But do you need 1,000+ wiring companies? Or just a few good ones. Because if you guys weren’t willing to fork over your wallet for "hearing beyond just the notes" of music, the hifi cables wouldn’t disappear, they’d just be affordable. Because where there is a market, there 100% of the time nearly there is a product. Now what do you have to say to that glupson? Lol. In good fun. |
The same thing goes for eveything in audio. Speakers? The really good ones uses 3rd party drivers. The crossovers, drivers and cabinets cost to build cost under $500 for even the 200 lb monsters. Do the best speaker drivers that costs a few dollars to make deserve to be $100-250? Heck yeah, that’s research and development. But the cost of designing a speaker and the crossover designs...people design these in their garages and basements for free for free. They don’t deserve 5,000%+ margins. If people weren’t willing to shell out $50,000 for Accuton Driver based speakers? They’d drop to $2,500, and they’d still make bank. The cost to build a speaker is cheap, and only the drivers deserve a high price for research and development, but the best speakers in the world shouldn’t cost more than $3,500. But, I get you have these quad diamond tweeter and quad diamond midrange 1,000 lb monoliths, those are probably $10k. Would the market shrink from. 1,000+ companies to like 5 or 6? Just like the TV industry? Yeah, and it’d still work with many people making a lot of money. When there’s a market, there’s a product. Same for receivers, processors and amplifiers. That all cost under $100 to make. You guys looking for the high end, screw yourselves out of it, by be willing to pay these companies products in their weight in Gold. Sometimes literally, lol. |
They can exist. And I don’t want to bring up the $10k amplifier challenge by Richard Clarke, but 10s of thousands or people are yet to identify amplifiers with the same gain and same frequency response as to sounding different. If you want .001% THD instead or .01% and a higher dampening factor to take it to 11? Fine. But most people don’t care about taking it to 11 (Spinal Tap reference) and a $350 7 channel 1,000 watt rms factory direct amplifier can exist when a 6 channel car audio amplifier exists on 3rd party sites, so 2 people taking margins instead of 1 on the factory dirext, and cost to build margins, so if a car audio company with 3rd party sellers can sell 6 channel 1,000 watt RMS amplifiers for $200? I’m sure the factory direct audio world can do it, too. Especially since car amplifiers and home theater amplifiers are so similar. |
If less companies then prices go up? When there’s a whole, it’ll be filled. If things change, then a factory direct company will show up to change things. And if there is collusion? And they threaten the factory direct company? Then it’s legally wrong. With out factory direct internet? We’d be screwed. We shouldn't be worried about less companies existing. I assume unless there's collusion, they will compete like a fair market should. There is probably collusion now, though. - Andy |
Glupson - you don’t have to build these speakers yourselves. I’m saying they are making 10,000%+ margins on speaker sales. If people wouldn’t pay it, they’d drop to 500%. And at that price, nothing would cost more than $5,000 from any companies. Put simply, a speaker company should exist that sells factory direct Scan- Speak, Accuton, Seas, Audio Technology and Dayton speakers. They could make 300% margins, and still make tons and tons and tons of money. Those are the main speaker driver companies used in $10,000+ speakers. SVSound used a Scan Speak d3004 in a cheap speaker, and I’m assuming the speaker industry threatened them in to not doing it, because within a month or 2 it was withdrawn, and a cheaper alternative was put out. The d3004-6600 is widely considered one of the greatest tweeters ever invented or conceived. They got "backlash" from it, and wow, what a surprise, they changed it. |
Sub speakers that are $1,000 should cost like $250-300 and get 1,000%+ margins. The same goes for other "cheaper" alternatives of processors and amplifiers. If a Dayton Audio (Parts Express brand) had their affordable $30-50 drivers used in speakers from a 300% margin speaker company, it’d rock the socks off anything over $1,500 that exists at like $300-$350 for a 3 way speaker. Again, speaking in bulk 50% wholesale large mass driver and crossover components and building materials. You can get 5 channel car audio amplifiers that puts out like 1,000 watts RMS for $200 on wholesale sights. I don’t see why they can’t have $300-400 versions of these on the home theater market. |
The margins are what makes something a good deal or not to the buyer. If a company takes 300% margins on speakers, then you get more bang for your buck as it's $400 on $100 to build instead of you paying 3,000% on $100 so it's $3,100 to you. It's all the same product, it just equals more value with less margins, or as the money isn't invisibly and magically going to the speaker building company or wire building company instead of your pocket. Lower margins = cheaper prices, and more bang for your buck on the same product |
The Emotiva A-500 does exist at $530. https://emotiva.com/products/a-500
If they had more power, it'd take away from their XPA Generation 3 $1,700 amplifier https://emotiva.com/products/xpa-5-gen3 Power Output: 300 watts RMS/channel; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD<0.1%; 8 Ohms; one channel driven. 550 watts RMS/channel; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD<0.2%; 4 Ohms; one channel driven. 300 watts RMS/channel; THD<0.1%; 8 Ohms; two channels driven. 490 watts RMS/channel; THD<0.1%; 4 Ohms; two channels driven. 250 watts RMS/channel; THD<0.1%; 8 Ohms; ALL FIVE channels driven. More of this should be available everywhere. The XPA Gen 3 could be $750, and they'd make volume, but watch, the amplifier industry laid down rules, in their price colluding of the big guys. |
Okay. Hrm. Now I feel like we’re going around and around in circles. I do appreciate the fun debate, and I’m declaring my self the winner. Lol. Lower Margins = more volume and still profitable enough to exist Exotic = cheaper, since lower margins and still profitable since higher volume Less companies like leas fish in the seas and more to feed on little minnows, more volume, and appropriate prices. It’s like the sleep number scam. A $1,500 C2 = same air base as all the mattresses and 2" of plastic like poly foam A $5,700 iLE uses 6" of poly foam with the same air base. 3rd party foams. Less than a $50 cost to produce difference. Polyurethane Foam = the cheapest foam to manufacture if I’m not mistaken? Buy a 3" radium organic talalay latex topper for $400 from sleepez.fom Tempurpedic 3" topper for $300 from tempurpedic.com And a 6" cotton zippered mattress case for $200 $2,500 8" c2 now 14" now = better than the 6 inches or 12" of cheap polyurethane foam for $5,700. And not to mention, air chambers are a scam. Unless the density or ILD (impression load deflection - The amount of weight or pressure required to compress the mattress to that extent of 25% or 1 inch) or density changes, it’s the same thing. It’s like a pool tube with cheap poly foam that you could build for like $200. Lol. Use leggat and platt individual pocketed coils. All the $5,000 mattresses use those. sell those and the mattress cases are at mattresses.net or it’s called the Arizona Mattress store. I’ve posted, too much in depth knowledge on industry stuff. I’ll fear for my life if I post more. Please stop egging me on? Lol, Thanks, - Andy |
I think what I meant is, that $30,000 Audioquest Dragon Zero and Bass, would cost $300 if there weren’t suckers to pay $30k on $50 cost to build wiring. I think you guys get embarrassed that you spend so much, or can’t stand the thought that you’re getting taken, that you somehow justify spending so much by the fact that "you can" and that you’re "financially secure" enough, that you don’t mind spending so much It’s this simple= Speaker Wire get up to 100,000%+ mark ups. Speakers get up to 10,000%+ markup. People pay this, so it’s reserved for the elite. If people weren’t willing. The prices for the same product would drop 99%+. It’s that simple. And I’m not exaggerating. You can justify it all you want. You’re guys OCD that you aren’t hearing your music well enough force your insecurities to sip the kool aid and waste money. This cult is hysterical. You guys actual defend 100,000% mark ups on Audioquest cabling. I think 60 minutes should do a piece on the mark up scams, and the people who matter, the cool people, will laugh and laugh Stop justifying your purchases, and "Liking" such scams. |
Mitch2, copper is billions of years old. It comes from the collision of 2 neutron stars in a binary system or in other words it’s stars that have exploded in to a super nova and failed to turn in to a black hole leaving neutron stars that combine at a 1/3 the speed of light, and create precious metals. 50 year old copper? Are you seriously kidding me? If $30k AudioQuest Dragon Zero and Dragon Bass were $100, would you buy them still? If your MIT Oracle Matrix SHD 120 Rev. 2 Speaker Interface didn’t cost $40k, and were $200, would you buy them? Audio cable theories on fidelity in wires aside, would anyone buy these wires if they only just costed $300? And I’m talking introductory prices. Not discounted. If their original pricing were to have been $100-200 for each of them. Because with 100,000% margins, they’d still make 1,000% margins on those 3 wires I listed if they changed those prices. I’m just saying you’re all getting ripped off. Do they sound "better" to you? Fine, whatever, but at least don’t get ripped off. If AudioQuest charged a few hundred dollars, or MIT wire charged a few hundred dollars, they never would have been considered "high fidelity", because of the expensive M.S.R.P. (manufacturer suggested retail pricing) dollar effect, affects your perception. mitch22,073 posts10-26-2019 8:53am Seriously - what a sanctimonious pile of crap. What makes you all-knowing? How about those of us who can afford expensive wire, have heard and owned expensive wire, yet don’t buy into the hype and choose to build our own speaker cable out of much less expensive materials, such as 50-year old copper? I suppose we are not worthy because our systems or hearing are somehow deficient....right? Standard playbook stuff. |
If AudioQuest charged $350 for their Dragon Zero and Bass which would be 100% fair, I might buy it. Some would call me ridiculous considering I could get the same audio fidelity from $1 a foot belden. Paying 1,000% premium for something that probably doesn’t mean anything. But I’m OCD, and I like the idea that I have something high quality in my system. But to tell you the truth. Belden audio and video wires is my thing. Even if I wanted "better", I couldn’t find it, and would keep the Belden. And it makes sense they would be the best. They’re a $3 billion dollar company that sells their wire to NASA and all of the commercial wiring industry; the stuff that people record and operate the media I see and hear with. It makes sense that a scientific company would make the best wiring as well as charging $1 a foot; as the no nonsense company probably would have the best anyways. I don’t go by price tag. I trust the $3 billion dollar company with hundreds of millions of dollars in research an development. Not the company that makes a few million dollars a year selling components they hand made down by the river in a van. |
Well. James Randi used to offer $1,000,000 for proof of proof of the supernatural, and he put out the reward for people claiming speaker wire mattered in sound fidelity, and no one would do it. Not Pear Anjou? Or the reviewer who reviewed the $10k speaker wire from Pear Anjou as causing your feet to do the "proevrbial" tap dancing. He stopped doing the offer recently. I think he retired. There still are several companies that offer $10k+ to prove the supernatural. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal Go claim your reward! But be sure you break in your billions of years old copper and silver speaker wiring though. 😉 Now I’m getting trollish. I was hoping to open up discussion about this, but all I received was anger and name calling like "Troll" ... But. Well, there’s a sucker born every minute. People used to literally buy snake oil for medicine. I suppose this is the 21st and 20th century version of people buying snake oil medicine. Stuff like this has been going on for millenniums. The tendency to buy on to this stuff must be hereditary and gene orientated like how some people genetically are more susceptible to sip the kool aid and join cults. snake oil/ˈsnāk ˌoil/nounINFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
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You guys are really funny. Like, this is like being on the Flat Earth forums, where you see people convinced the Earth is flat. Just, it’s like a Kool Aid that’s being sipped. Could it be that you have a passionate love for music, and it’s fun spending a lot of money to get " higher quality " speaker wires and better sound? And that in actuality, you want so bad to believe that music can get more and more Accurate each year, that it’s just a never ending cycle of upgrading to get as close to the real thing as possible? I get it. Upgrading speakers, audio cables and power wire, etc, processors and power conditioners and etc? It’s a hobby. It’s something to do and you can spend hours fantasizing about new equipment. I could probably hook up some Audioquest And MTI wiring, and "hear" a difference. I could probably sip the kool aid and think something is better. In many times in life, when there’s a will there’s a way. I assume though if you got me double blind tested, I wouldn’t be able to distinguish the fidelity though. Like Scientology, the Flat Earth cult, etc, a good part of people just wants to break people free of placebo and incorrect stuff, because it’s frustration. I hope one day you guys get some courage to do a truly 100% no possible error of scientific investigation in to this, and learn a lesson about life. I kind of went through this right away when I entered the hobby, but I pretty quickly caught on to the big picture of the audio and video world. Some people are faster than others to learning things like this in life. It’s an important lesson to learn. Good luck guys! I said my peace, and I respect all of you. Figure it out, I’ll probably be done harassing you guys now. Burn away those audio cables so they break in well! 😀 😎 - Andy |