Why not horns?

"As you you've established clearly that you have no use for horns, pray tell, what use have we of you? Why are you presenting yourself so emphatically in an arena where you have no interest nor expertise?" - Macrojack

See, now this seems smug to me. But it's probably just a case of lost in translation.
My original foray into this thread was the simple answer to the question "Why not horns?" To which my response was the equally simple, because they SOUND like horns. It was not my intention to go beyond that yet somehow I got drawn in.
And since I joined this thread it turns out that the only "horn" that didnt sound like a horn wasn't even a horn over a significant area of its frequency range.

I AM curious. AND I do have experience with horns. I am NOT resistant to horn theory. But so far my only assertion against is that horns sound like horns. And so far the only place I've presented myself so emphatically was either
a) about amplifier power, etc.
b) the fact that multiple drivers can approach the same sensitivity as a single large horn. Properly implemented, this is true. As I've tried to convey with a real world example.
c) that at least one of the examples of a "horn with a smooth sound" wasn't even a full horn after all.

So, really, you probably have no USE of me. Even so. How does that restrict my presence? And, most importantly, how does educating myself on horn theory change any of the above three?
For the record, I will most likely still go and read what you have suggested because I am infinitely curious. My only problem was with the idea that we seemingly had to stop all interaction in this thread until I went to read your suggested material.
Again, perhaps intentions were lost in translation.

Horns are great-My current speaker set up is Klipsch Lascalas, cabinets modified to reduce box resonance and coloration, as are the horns as well modified to reduce the same. I also added 50 lbs to each box by building bases for additional mass and to raise them to a better listening height. I use a pair of powered subs from 50 hz on down. I have owned many speakers in my time, and have felt that each system/room had great characterists, with some flaws. I have also listened to many systems beyond that. I listen at 100 db often, and peaks go beyond that. I have found a system that brings me closer to the musical event at my respected price range, and I do not look back. I choose to not use tubes(unlike many tube users), because I have found neutral ss gear I can listen to for hours on end. My system has great rhythm, beat and tempo, which to me is most important in creating the reality thing. Spatial imaging is excellent with the speakers disappearing much of the time. Dynamic range is awesome. This is the difference between the soft and loud passages of music, relative to the systems noise floor, which is QUIET. As the recording gets better, so does the system. Listening to Patricia Barber and recordings of this nature are 2nd to none. A recording such as Jethro Tull's Aqualung is not as dynamic or wide range, but I hear the bands coherence in playing together, which is what I listen for before anything else. My system does this wonderfully, as well as all those other "audiophile " things. I believe everyone should get a listen to a properly designed horn system and a room that can handle them. Thank you for reading my rant.....Dan

Herman. I have one last thing to mention with regards to parallel amps in an effort to reconcile why we keep misunderstanding what each other is saying.....
If you take a look at BATs website and look at the following products: VK-255SE and VK-600. Scroll down to the bottom of each page and look at the specs. You will see that both amplifiers have 26dB of gain. Yet one is rated at 150W into 8ohms and the other is 300W into 8ohms.
The practical difference between these two amps is that the VK-600 is basically a chasis with two of the smaller amps fit inside. There are other differences but practically speaking, this is the crux of it. The 600 basically has double the output devices in parallel that the 255 has. Indeed, they previously offered a VK-250M which was basically the same as a VK-600 in two seperate boxes. Now, they go a step further. Just like the VK-75 and the VK-150, if you take the VK-600 and parallel its inputs/outputs you get an amp with the same gain but twice the current capability again.

Bottom line. I totally agree that paralleling identical amps does NOT change the gain (dBW) one bit. But clearly, BAT is a good example of how it does double the output power.
Perhaps we've been arguing over two very different things here. Whatever the case, if you still strongly disagree with what BATs website clearly states then, well, I have to admit I am curious to know why but this is probably not the best place to hash that out.
Cheers.

MrD,

Can you tell us more about the mods to the La Scala, how you determined them, and how these effected the resulting sound? Thanks.

Prez,

You said the power doubled. Since paralleling does not increase power as I demonstrated it was logical to assume you meant bridging since that is the only way to get more power. You scold me for not properly interpreting your mistaken idea that power went from 75 to 150 watts????

You've already proven you have no idea how amps operate with your assertion that the current doubles when you provide the same voltage to the same load. I do mean power, not gain. I completely understand the difference. Evidently you do not because paralleling amps does not affect the gain, it remains the same.

A distortion is an error and they do add up, they don't average. Two drivers distorting differently is more distortion than either driver by itself.

I've debated people like you in the past and will not do so again. You are now so hell bent on not admitting your mistakes you are embarrassing yourself with idiotic assertions.

Good day.

.

Prdprez - I started this thread with the hope that I might engender a useful and enlightening discussion about horn loudspeakers. I know from first hand experience that there are horns that do not pollute the air with what generally is called horn sound. Mine are as crystal clear and utterly precise as anything you have ever heard and in all likelihood significantly more so. It can be done and Bill Woods has done it. I gambled when I bought my horns and it paid off handsomely. Not all of my gambles have been so rewarding.

My reason for asking everyone to read Bill's article on horn geometry is an attempt to get all of us on the same page. It is a thoughtful piece around which we could center a debate. It could serve to take us beyond isolated anecdotal testimony and baseless claims.

Everyone:
Duke and Johnk are professional speaker builders who have found out first hand what they are trying to share with you. A bit of gratitude would be nice and a show of respect would not be entirely out of line. Ralph owns Atma-Spere, one of the most highly respected lines of tube amplification made in the U.S. For some years now he has worked closely with John Wolfe of Classic Audio Reproductions, a very highly reviewed line of horn hybrid loudspeakers. These guys know more than you do. Be grateful that they are sharing their views and experiences and stop trying to show off. Ralph, in particular, has attended every major U.S. show for more than 20 years and knows most products pretty well. Unlike me, he has a broad knowledge of how one product compares to another and in this area his knowledge likely surpasses any of us. Please be grateful. What these guys bring to the table goes beyond just theory - it is the voice of experience.

Mapman, it took me a few years to minimize the box resonance from the boxes. Simply, I used test tones with a microphone/spl meter, my feel of the box and my ears, as well as a wide range of music to come up with my mods. I originally started with a brace at the front corners of the bass horns. I than used some resonant free aluminum bars(found at a surplus parts place in town),applying them one pair at a time. Until they passed my criteria. The wife is ok with them, because of the paint and vinyl tile I have used to make them room friendly. Some of these bars face horizontal,some vertical. I had done another pair prior, but overdamped the boxes. Not much more to say. MrD

Mapman, to answer the last part of your question. The resultant sound is to my ears musically perfect. The Lascala was designed to to be listened to from very very far away. I listen about 14 feet away, which at the volume levels I like to listen, I was hearing the boxes, which now I do not. Very clean and quick throughout the spectrum. MrD

Prez, I got your email. Funny you should call me a complete and utter fool when I clearly demonstrated your idea about power doubling when an amp is paralleled is wrong. The link to BAT said nothing about the difference in the amps except one has more power. Distortions do not average.

This is going nowhere because you can't admit these basic ideas are true.

Please quit bothering me.

.

"Mine are as crystal clear and utterly precise as anything you have ever heard and in all likelihood significantly more so." - Macrojack

I can appreciate your enthusiasm for horns. I really can.
But this statement can not be supported in any manner since you do not have first hand experience with what I have heard.
Nor do I have the benefit of hearing your system.
So, on this we are at an impasse.
Fortunately this is fine. I'll continue to keep an open mind, try to learn whatever I can from you and your fellow enthusiast, and wait for the day that I hear a horn I can truly appreciate.
Cheers!!

Herman, if you had read the website you would see what I am talking about. Two amps with the same gain but different rated output power into the same load. The only difference being the number of PARALLELED output devices.
Given this comes from a well respected and established company whose designer has credentials far beyond what is adequate for HiFi and certainly your own, I find it humorous that you continue to ridicule me.
I know nothing but what I have learned from other highly qualified individuals.

If you would like me to quit "bothering" you then stop the insults and respond to this concrete example.
Or, just be quiet. Or must have the last word?

Presently, I have neither the time nor the inclination to get caught up in the technical bantering, but other than that, I find myself in full agreement with Prdprez's position regarding horns on this thread.

Mrd.,
Great post. I feel the same about my Klipschorns as you do about your LaScalas. At the pricepoint these sell for used ($2K) it's hard to beat them. They simply offer things that other designs I've heard and owned do not.
I haven't tweaked mine as much as you - Rewired with solid core copper wire, new crossovers, reinforced the wall corners they sit in, and sealed to the wall corners. Small room with SE tube amps for me.
You say there's no looking back, but I just might go back to non-horns one day just because there are many ways to enjoy good sound.
Cheers!

Unsound - Both of you are acting like petulant children insistent about your inalienable right to remain willfully ignorant. Who can argue? You have that right.
But why not do so quietly? Neither of you has said anything to move this thread forward and neither has provided anything more than unsubstantiated and/or anecdotal comments. Have you done your homework? Have you read the brief article I suggested? Has anyone here read it?

If you are not interested in horns and have a practical reason, please share it.
Many cannot afford the money or space. We have acknowledged that. They sound like horns. Some do - not all. What other objections can you raise?

I'm not interested in baseless opinions. I don't need any more input from individuals who aren't interested in anything outside their own ego space. If you need to be right, you are in the wrong place.

"there are many ways to enjoy good sound."

Now, as with most good things, that is the truth!

Audiophiles frustrate me quite often when they assume a narrow view of what can constitute good sound! No wonder they are a dying breed!

Sebrof...by saying you might go back to non horns tells me that something is not right. Klipschorns work in a corner for bass output and extension, but I prefer non corner placed speakers, saying I like the Lascala over the Klipschorn. IMHO. Thanks,Mrd

Being an audiophile is fine. Being a "music listener"...well.....

I like the corner horn approach IF you have the right room to implement it in. If not, then you have to work with what you have.

The SOTA horn system I heard at CAF was set up in the corners and that worked exceptionally well in that room.

BTW,

I've decided to designate the SOTA horn system I heard at CAF as a reference system for me. I equate leaving with a headache to someone with sensitive eyes being outside on a gorgeous sunny day without sunglasses. It is uncomfortable, but the problem is with our own sensory overload, not the signal. You put on a pair of sunglasses to deal with it. With a sound system, you might have to turn down the volume a bit, though you would prefer not to. At the live symphony performance, you might have to move out of the front row and back a ways.

Mapman - I have found with my system that the lack of distortion can cause me to play louder than I otherwise might. Perhaps we equate loudness with distortion and respond by playing louder when the distortion is absent. Just a guess but that might account for your throbbing noggin.

Macrojack, Good grief man! I only have so much time to waste here. I told you I would read it! :)

And I have. Naturally, the first thing I have to note is that even Mr. Woods has stated that the conical (the least colored) "has very little trace of the "honky" sound." Which is also to say that it still has that sound. Perhaps my ear is especially sensitive to that. Not sure yet. I will have to explore it some more.

Either way, Bill Woods as much as admits that even the least colored horn is still colored. This may seem like nit-picking but in an hobby where we describe differences in cables as "vast", is it not reasonable that even this slight coloration is still obvious to some?

Thats my observation after a first pass over the recommended article. Going back for more..........

No doubt one can play things much louder when distortion is in check. The human ear can only handle so much though, so one must be careful!

Macrojack for what's it's worth I have enjoyed this thread even know I have not listened to a horn system; I now know there will some extra effort to put a speaker system like this together and the result can be rewarding.

"Perhaps we equate loudness with distortion and respond by playing louder when the distortion is absent." - Macrojack

I've found this to be absolutely true in my own experience. Even with dynamic drivers. These days I've have to be conscious of the volume from time to time to make sure I'm not going overboard.

P.S. can someone show me where to figure out how to quote others in this thread properly. Instead of cut and paste. Thanks!!

Prdprez & Herman,

I'm not particularly familiar with the BAT solid state amplifiers, but if indeed the only relevant difference between configurations that offer, for example, 300W into 8 ohms and 150W into 8 ohms is that output circuits are paralleled, then my guess is as follows:

I would guess that both configurations are either designed with the same internal voltage rails and output voltage swing capability, or are designed such that those parameters can be easily selected internally between two values corresponding to the two configurations. In the lower powered (non-paralleled) configuration, the 150W rating (which represents continuous MAXIMUM power delivery into 8 ohms, at a specified distortion level) is limited by either current capability or by heat dissipation considerations, or both.

In that situation, paralleling the output circuits would double the continuous MAXIMUM power rating. However, the amount of power delivered into a given load, for a given input signal and gain, would be identical for both amplifiers as long as the voltage, current, power, and thermal limits of the lower powered amp are not exceeded.

Regards,
-- Al

Macrojack, you've got a lot of nerve. You asked why not horns? We answered because horns have a characteristic sound that we don't care for. You asked for specifics. We provided them. You periodically bring up the same complaints that our responses aren't helpful. Well "thems the answers". You dismiss our responses as being ignorant. Well in as much as we might not have the same exact experiences and responses as you, you don't have the same experiences and responses as us. We are no more ignorant than you. You expect us to research the writings of your one and only guru, unfortunately, as you seem to be attached at the hip with him, unless you turn around, your blocking the light on any chance of an open dialogue. Perhaps you are the one that doesn't get it. Neither of us said, that it was impossible to get good sound from horns. What we said, is that based upon our experience, we see more promise elsewhere. Perhaps you should start a new thread for horn enthusiasts only. More importantly, perhaps you should learn to stay on subject without insulting those that disagree with you, as that is the most disagreeable thing of all.

Almarg: Thank you so much. You've explained it so much more eloquently that I. Indeed, the operative word I've been neglecting is MAXIMUM. And you are correct, the primary differences are current capability and heat dissipation.
I didn't anticipate these distinctions to have made a difference in an Avantgaurd Trio but it did. Why? Who knows for sure? To which my guess was that the amp with higher maximum power capability (based on current) handled even small impedance variations with more grace.

Thanks again for your input.

Almarg...... upon consideration I'm convinced you are correct.

All three of my examples have listed specs of 26dB gain. This equates to 400W, correct? (under ideal circumstances)
Yet the other specs are listed as 150W and 300W. The maximum wattage is not specified for paralleling the largest amp (VK-600m) So we can probably assume that it tops out at 400W maximum (still 26dB gain) with overkill ability on the current side.
All they are doing is adding more power supply and more heat dissipation.

Thanks again for your contribution. This probably wasn't the best example to illustrate my original point. ugh! haha.

Unsound is right.

Don't be a horn Nazi! Sharing of different views (that's all they are) by all including those who loathe horns is part of the learning experience. Just stick to the facts and I'm sure that horns will find some new devotees which is the best that can be hoped for realistically with any technology or approach discussed on this site.

"Horn Nazis"? Well, even the Nazis did some things well (roads for example) but that doesn't justify their other deeds. As I have said, horns do Dixieland jazz superbly, but I can't listen to Dixieland all the time.

I'm glad I gave up my audiophile card long ago, because thats when music became fun again. My Apogee dipole panel speakers are fun to listen to, and so are my horns (Klipsch).

My Bose 901's out in the garage are also fun....and so are my big old ugly VMPS Supertower/R's.

When I was an audiophile, I rarely found music or speakers that were fun, and once the fun was gone......so was I.

After around 5 years I came back for another try, and with a new goal......."Don't worry, be Happy"....and have fun!

Dave

Al, I too was unfamiliar with the design of the circuit, but one does not have to know anything about it to know that it is impossible to get more power without more voltage.

Some are assuming that paralleled output tubes will somehow would drive more current into the load when we both know that for a given load the amount of current delivered is a function of voltage. These are voltage source amps, not current sources. I tried to explain this and as a result received an email telling me I was insolent, a complete and utter fool, and a coward.

So my interest was piqued and I sent an email to BAT. I figured maybe they used a higher tap on the secondary of the power transformer to get B+ up a bit. Close, but wrong. They do parallel the channels but as I've proven that does not raise the voltage. They also use a higher tap on the output transformer to raise the voltage. Very clever.

So for those who thought me to be an utter fool for saying you must raise the voltage, well, I guess we know who looks foolish now. Now that we have that settled I'll let the horn haters bash it out with the horn lovers.

Interesting thread, learned a bit about conical horns.

Oh, and distortions do not average out.

.

Prez, I hate to keep beating you down but your analysis with dB is also off

Not sure where you got 26dB but that does not equate to 400W. Here is how it works.

The sensitivity of the amp is 1V, that means it takes one volt to drive the amp to maximum output.

Of course these amps won't do it but to get 400W into 8 ohms you would need an output voltage of 57V. If you had one volt in that is a gain of 57. A gain of 57 is 35dB = 20 log 57.

To get 75W@8ohms you need 25V out. That is 28dB.

To get 75W@4ohms you need 17V. That is 25dB.

To get 150W@8ohm you need 35V. That is 31dB

I rounded things off but that is real close. It has a different amount of gain for each scenario because you use different taps on the output transformer to get different voltages.

.

Hi Herman,

I, of course, agree with your technical statements about amplifier power, etc., as far as they go. And they are not inconsistent with my previous post. However, keep in mind that the amps we were discussing as examples are solid state amps. So rather than using higher taps on the output xfmrs, I would guess (as I indicated earlier) that either the voltage rails on the non-paralleled amp configurations are the same as on the otherwise similar paralleled configurations, or can be internally selected between voltage values appropriate to each configuration.

As you will realize, the paralleled configuration simply provides the current capability and/or heat dissipation capability necessary to support the application of the higher voltage to the given 8 ohm or other load.

And Prdprez has now agreed that we are talking about maximum power ratings, not about paralleled output stages forcing more current into a load without a voltage increase.

Prdprez,

All three of my examples have listed specs of 26dB gain. This equates to 400W, correct? (under ideal circumstances)
Yet the other specs are listed as 150W and 300W. The maximum wattage is not specified for paralleling the largest amp (VK-600m) So we can probably assume that it tops out at 400W maximum (still 26dB gain) with overkill ability on the current side.

I don't think we can say how much power the VK-600m can supply, without more information than appears to be provided on their site. Besides there being no spec on maximum output power, unless I missed it there appears to be no spec on input sensitivity (i.e., how much input voltage is required to produce the rated output).

26db gain (the spec for the VK-600 and VK-255SE) simply means that the output voltage will be 20 times larger than the input voltage, provided that the output voltage, current, and power, and the corresponding heat dissipation, do not exceed the amp's capabilities.

Thanks for the nice words.

Best regards,
-- Al

ALL speakers have colorations. Pick the ones which annoy you the least.

"ALL speakers have colorations."

All recordings do as well. Same true with every piece in every system out there. So the idea of no coloration is not reality and not worth losing any sleep over. If you enjoy what you hear, then that's about as good as it gets.

With regards to amplifier power and amplifier types used on horns:

My speakers are horn hybrids, using a high efficiency pair of 15" woofers, which limit the efficiency to 98 db.

If I push the system hard, I am really challenged to clip a 30-watt amplifier. But I prefer 150 watts if I can get it, even though I will never use the power. In my case, because I am using OTLs, the amps have no issues at low power: the less power, the less distortion, quite similar to SETs.

The system plays very clean and is devoid of loudness artifacts. The only way you can tell how loud it is playing is if you try to talk to someone sitting beside you or if you have a sound pressure meter.

Amplifiers like the kind I am using (zero feedback) tend to make more distortion following a curve where the distortion becomes more pronounced as you approach clipping. Distortion is where loudness cues come from- the result being that while I can get satisfying volume from the 30-watt amp (and right now I am playing a pair of type 45-based P-P amps that only make 5 watts), the simple fact of the matter is that there are less loudness cues when I use the bigger amps.

(FWIW, the Trio is only horn speaker I know of where the designer intended it to be used with transistors. This is reflected in the crossover design, or lack of it, which consists of capacitors to roll off low frequencies for each driver. This results in an impedance curve that is nearly 19 ohms in the bass horn, but only about 4 ohms at the tweeter frequencies, even though the individual drivers are all nearly the same impedance. No low power tube amp is going to drive this right as the speaker is what I call a Voltage Paradigm technology, whereas most low power tube amps and other horns are Power Paradigm technology. see http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html for more info.)

In a case where the speaker is 10 db more efficient than mine, the need for power does get eroded; 15 watts is a lot of power on such a speaker but IMO you do this to reduce loudness artifact from the amp. Horns tend to be very reactive loads and so are often shouty and shrill if the amp used has a low output impedance, particularly if that low output impedance is due to loop feedback in the amp (the back EMF tends to get into the feedback loop, causing the feedback signal to contain false information). This is one reason why horn users who get good results rarely use transistors, and a major reason why many people think that horns are for PA, not hifi. In a nutshell, its an equipment mismatch.

Al, I wasn't questioning your analysis, you clearly understand the technical side of things. I was just trying to clarify the mystery of why this particular amp could double power when outputs were put in parallel.

BTW the specs for the VK-600 and others are on the website. The 600 delivers 300W/ch @ 8 ohms and doubles that into 4 ohms. I also checked on the power output when run as monoblocks. As we predicted, it does not double it's power output as a monoblock. I was told they can produce "somewhat" more power because the supplies don't sag as much. Again, consistent with what was previously stated.

Ralph, interesting info on the trios. I have Duos with the high impedance drivers so I assume it is the same scenario except the mid horn has no electrical crossover; the tweeter does. It looks to me from their brochure that the cap is in series with the driver which makes sense if you want to block low frequencies. I don't see how this would cause the impedance to dip to 4 ohms at high frequencies. Help me out here.

As soon as Pure Music releases a version with a three way crossover instead of just 2 way I intend to pull the tweeter crossover and try to run it straight to the amp like the mid and my basshorn are now.

JohnK, I think it's great that an offset bipolar type might find its way into your lineup! I consider it an honor that you see enough potential to give it a shot. Let me know what Joe thinks if you get a chance.

There's at least one other manufacturer, Jim Romeyn, doing his own variation on the theme, and here's a link in case you'd like to take a look at what he's doing:

http://jamesromeyn.com/home-audio-gear/jr-modular-pro-monitor-3kpr-usd/

Very best to you.

Duke

sorry for three posts in a row but I missed this earlier.

Prez, I couldn't figure where the 26dB cam from but now I do. My earlier analysis was of the VK-75/150 and I did not know you were looking at the solid state amps.

If you take a look at BATs website and look at the following products: VK-255SE and VK-600. You will see that both amplifiers have 26dB of gain. Yet one is rated at 150W into 8ohms and the other is 300W into 8ohms.

The practical difference between these two amps is that the VK-600 is basically a chasis with two of the smaller amps fit inside. There are other differences but practically speaking, this is the crux of it.

Bottom line. I totally agree that paralleling identical amps does NOT change the gain (dBW) one bit. But clearly, BAT is a good example of how it does double the output power.

I believe you should see now that your conclusion is incorrect. The 26dB, as stated by Al just means the input voltage gets multiplied by 20 for both amps.

To get 150W@8ohms from the smaller one takes about 1.7 volts in.

1.7V times 20 = 34V......34V squared divided by 8 = 150W
If you drive it harder you can't get more than 34V because the voltage can go no higher and it clips.

To get 300 Watts from the bigger amp takes about 2.5V in which produces about 50V out. It can go higher because the voltage rails are higher. It has a power supply with higher voltage rails and presumably more output devices in parallel to share the higher amount of current it can produce. It's not higher power because it has more devices in parallel, it is higher power because it has higher rails. It is not simply 2 of the smaller ones in the same box.

You clearly don't have a firm grip on the basics yet you attack me for pointing that out. I don't know what to tell you. That's all basic electronics that a first year tech school student learns yet you call me a complete and utter fool when I explain it to you.

.

Lets move on,NOTHING has been settled here...

All I know is, the Klipschorn speaker has been made for

over 60 years, along with JBL, they have been making

the speakers the Studios used for many years.

That said: The "HORN" speaker, has firmly rooted itself,

into the Audio "Hall of Fame".

Name some of YOUR favorite speakers, how long have they

been around?

As I said earlier, no, Horns are not for everyone.

Life goes on.

Love them, hate them, it is YOUR choice; but to say

Horn speakers, fail to deliver superb sound, when

implemented properly, is just plain "IGNORANT".

From Japan, to Europe, and back, Klipschorn,along with

JBL, for over 60 years and counting, are still revered,

World Wide.

Somebody Loves Horns...

I Love Music!

Popularity is not synommous with quality. Horns have been around a long time, for a number of reasons. Perhaps, because of early amplifier limitations and/or perhaps because much like today, they work well for creating great volume for great spaces. It would appear to me, at least on this thread, that there doesn't seem to be a consensus by horn enthusiasts as to; when exactly a horn is implemented properly. Perhaps when that can be determined, the horn haters will give horns yet another chance. Till then, your ill mannered upper case insulting shouting doesn't improve the quality of your argument, it compromises it.

Good show Dave ........ LOL and very correct !

06-15-10: Sogood51
I'm glad I gave up my audiophile card long ago, because thats when music became fun again. My Apogee dipole panel speakers are fun to listen to, and so are my horns (Klipsch).

My Bose 901's out in the garage are also fun....and so are my big old ugly VMPS Supertower/R's.

When I was an audiophile, I rarely found music or speakers that were fun, and once the fun was gone......so was I.

After around 5 years I came back for another try, and with a new goal......."Don't worry, be Happy"....and have fun!

Dave

Unsound, I agree his posts are hard to read but your point isn't specific to horns and really has nothing to do with how they sound.

here doesn't seem to be a consensus by horn enthusiasts as to; when exactly a horn is implemented properly. Perhaps when that can be determined, the horn haters will give horns yet another chance.

Look how many variations there are with box speakers like you have. Once the box speaker enthusiasts reach a consensus I'll give them another try.

.

Herman, While all systems deserve considerations regarding placement, associated gear and room treatment, I don't remember box speaker, or for that matter any other speaker design enthusiasts making such prerequisite qualifications. Are properly implemented horns that rare?

Unsound,

"no soup for you!"

Macrojack ... Horn Nazi ... LOL!!!!!

Macro why do you insist on being rude to those discussing their point of view in a thread started to do just that ?

There are others here in the know, open your mind and listen!

regards,

This is why I do not spend a lot of time with forums...We are a unique crowd, with so much passion and opinion. We need to all get along. We are all after the same thing. We are all looking for our own interpretation of what the musical truth is. We are all trying to capture that musical nirvana. Taking recorded music and turning it into a live performance....It is not easy.....

@ Almarg/Herman........
Well, a couple things are certain here.
1) first and foremost, it was classless to get personal and call names with Herman. My sincere apologies on that.
2) I've become completely lost in what has been said by me, by others. What hasn't been said, yadda yadda yadda. I know I have a habit of letting my thoughts move faster than my fingers and too often key words such as "maximum", "maybe", etc etc. get left out and totally screw up the intended meaning.
3) I've fallen prey to remembering particular specs incorrectly and assuming the numbers were correct without going back and verifying by actual math.
4) I just don't care anymore.

Herman, you asked me to stop. At first I was acting on emotion and didn't want to. But I calmed down and decided to stop. But I keep coming back to read more about horns and keep seeing new posts directed at me. Posts filled with animosity, deservedly so. To a point. Is it okay to state at this time that you've more than made your point? I'm stopping. Done. I made a few mistakes along the way. You're not the idiot I too quickly assumed. Admitted. Done.

One last attempt at an amiable contribution on BAT amplifier power.......
Um, well, you guys figured out where the 26dB gain number came from. The 400W was a partial guestimate based on (incorrect) memory, partially from a chart taken from an older Music Fidelity paper. Had nothing to do with actually running the numbers, not knowing actual input sensitivity.

I could have sworn a VK-600 was the same as a pair of VK-250 in one chasis. Nope, remembered that wrong too. Slight differences there.
But I found this for you guys to chew on and play with. (since it seems you're kind of 'into' figuring this out.)
BAT has an old page of specs that can still be accessed directly. http://www.balanced.com/products/amp/specs.O.shtml
Obviously the simple act of paralleling doesn't DOUBLE (definitely wrong there) but the power does go up. Interesting.......
Compare the charts for the VK-250 and VK-250M. Same gain. Same input sensitivity. 50W difference at 8ohm. Note also the VK-500 and VK-1000. Same gain. Same input sensitivity. 100W difference at 8ohms.
I point these out for you to play with because I KNOW (no really, I mean I REALLY know this time) that the only difference in these two comparisons is the internal paralleling of the inputs and outputs. No switches to be flipped. No changing rails. In fact you could take either stereo unit and convert it to mono without ever opening the chasis.

FWIW