Gawdbless,
I know a reprobate when i see one, Get well soon and many Happies .. |
Atmasphere
My comments on Horns and how they image, poor tonal balance, and poor sizing still stands, I'm not sure why you would mention Duke building speakers which are rear firing, as this has nothing to do with my opinion and suggestions, as many have done so before Duke and many will after .
Look i can understand those that have migrated to the sound of horns, they do it for the power !
less be frank the hi end is froth with really , really bad products , i would easily say 90% of the speakers available to the public is just plain crapola. For years dealers et al have marketed and pushed junk in exchange for big bucks and when the bidniz went A/V , it was easy for most to jump as they were never really happy with their 100K garbage systems.
Horns have allowed many to just enjoy the music from a power perspective , gone were the days when the had to listen to that wimpy sound from their 40K speakers ,playing the same 10 songs that worked over and over. You know those guys , you know the ones with 10 cd's !
There is a lot here to say , but my typing is bad and i'm lazy. I was involved in the audio field for 30 yrs, and with all respect for the parties involved , spare me the condescension of telling me about Duke's speakers, been there done that and a ball of wax...
I can prove all that has been stated, funny how when the weak ones are challenged they resort to personal fire !
I will say again .....
The Horn guys have Challenged before , my good associates at Audio note and Jadis did so 15 yrs ago when i was involved, Less just say i proved my point...
Can you ?
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Atmasphere , Suprise comment coming from one of your back ground...
You are comparing a monopole to a dipole , they cannot sound alike or have the same presentation and never will, it is technically impossible.
talk about absurd !
If you cannot get the speaker far enough from the rear wall, the first comment is moot. Duke has built systems that are rear-firing and they seem to work fine...
The second comment is simply absurd! Horns image and present soundstage images as well or as badly as any other speaker technology. |
LOL.. John the Irony !!!
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06-19-10: Johnk
Agree with gawdbless on this making bold all encompassing statements. Sad part of it all is the huge disservice these types due to audio by keeping people with limited experience from trying something new. Since they read the all this is that or that is only for hi-fi not music or all this does that. Just BS anyone with experience can see but those new will just take this as fact. And its not just horns TT CD SET PP SS amps Ribbons Planar STATs cones domes all have detractors. I see this daily in forums all [insert name here] users are deluding themselves only the [insert name here] is capable of accurate music reproduction. Have a open mind for once remember no absolutes, nothings perfect and if you do not like something does this now means that its crap for all? Or maybe you just do not enjoy it ever think of this? Maybe you never owned a recently constructed horn so your listening bias is from casual listens not real hands on experience. I for one know its possible to design very good sounding accurate loudspeakers of most any design and transducer type so why not with horns?
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Plainly there is no consensus on the desirability of horns in this discussion. However, it is equally plain that most of us see horns as a viable alternative. A few have no taste for them at all and a couple are hell bent on discouraging others from exploration.
I would posit however, that those who are encouraging newcomers to try horns out and see if they like them hold a higher position than those who claim to be protecting newbies from such exploitation. After all, they are the same individuals who retreat to arguments about the primacy of personal taste every time their other gambits appear at all shaky.
Clearly horns are not everyone's answer but to some of us they hold a position that known alternatives fail to challenge. How is that a problem? |
IME, horns are capable of producing a very good sound stage, but not very good imaging. |
Atma,
I understand why you reject the pejorative comment re: horns and imaging, but I will take issue with your specific rebuttal. Planars and omnis (properly set up) image differently than horns (or any other monpoles). Some may prefer that presentation. Some may feel exactly the other way. I won't attach a value judgement, but either way, IMHO, imaging is one area where people can draw sharp distinctions between monopoles (including horns) and dipoles/bipoles/omnis.
Marty |
You leave out one critical part of your thesis, planers radiate sound from both sides , this ability helps to create the required space and time of a recording far more accurately than any monopole transducer.
Horns will always sound like hi-fi, never real , they project sound in a manner where all instruments and voices have the same projection and size. The best you can say is that they sound just like an amplified concert 40 ft away. Unfortunately we listen to recordings of live music and not live music itself , as such Horns do not convey this as accurately IMO.
If you cannot get the speaker far enough from the rear wall, the first comment is moot. Duke has built systems that are rear-firing and they seem to work fine... The second comment is simply absurd! Horns image and present soundstage images as well or as badly as any other speaker technology. |
Weseixas, Sorry for the misunderstanding. It is all good. |
JohnK perhaps the horn enthusiasts should temper their excitement as well. Newcomers are just as easily influenced by the hyperbole as well. The opening of this thread practically invited the negative reaction. |
"I for one know its possible to design very good sounding accurate loudspeakers of most any design and transducer type so why not with horns?" - JohnK
Good sounding? Certailny.
Accurate?? By what definition? |
Agree with gawdbless on this making bold all encompassing statements. Sad part of it all is the huge disservice these types due to audio by keeping people with limited experience from trying something new. Since they read the all this is that or that is only for hi-fi not music or all this does that. Just BS anyone with experience can see but those new will just take this as fact. And its not just horns TT CD SET PP SS amps Ribbons Planar STATs cones domes all have detractors. I see this daily in forums all [insert name here] users are deluding themselves only the [insert name here] is capable of accurate music reproduction. Have a open mind for once remember no absolutes, nothings perfect and if you do not like something does this now means that its crap for all? Or maybe you just do not enjoy it ever think of this? Maybe you never owned a recently constructed horn so your listening bias is from casual listens not real hands on experience. I for one know its possible to design very good sounding accurate loudspeakers of most any design and transducer type so why not with horns? |
Horns will always sound like hi-fi, never real , they project sound in a manner where all instruments and voices have the same projection and size.
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With all due respects you are talking out of your
unwiseASS. |
Utter Tosh ... Related to Peter Tosh ? |
Mr DB,
I heard the Jadis setup both at the show and at Lyric, never said anything about my ears being better than yours or anyone else, I'm merely commenting on a system's dynamics vs loudness, well that was my attempt anyway .. LOL. nothing about the quality of ears...
regards, |
Weseixas, I am not sure if you are saying to me your ears are "better" than mine, that I play loud to compensate other areas of deficiency. Let me just say...to each his own. I understand dynamics very well, and live music, both amplified and unamplified. I do wish you the best and just hope your system can make your feet tap the way mine does for me. Listening to a high end speaker in a room with other speakers present,you tend to hear those other speakers as well(Lyric). Time to move on.........Thank you |
Horns will always sound like hi-fi, never real , they project sound in a manner where all instruments and voices have the same projection and size.
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Utter tosh. |
Hello Mr DB,
I'm very familiar with the Jadis Eurythmie and also attended the 96 show ! I also heard the Jadis setup at Lyric. I found that speaker to have a huge tonal balance issue and not to my liking and yes there were those that loved it , i guess if it is your thing , i thought the Audio Note setup was better, But this is Audio , enjoy the journey -)
When any system lacks energy and content(different from pushing high SPL) most tend to increase the volume , kinda drive the music home , in this manner they feel it is "live" not so ...
Music, especially recordings of live music has a lot of energy, micro and macro dynamics, this energy and dynamics is what drive the volume as it swells, the closer any system get's to correctly reproducing this is the more you will understand of what i speak, it is different from playing music " loud" it's the difference of it sounding real! |
The only horn speaker that I honestly would change to, given my room dimensions, would be the Jadis Eurythmie. I was the chosen fellow, for 3 days doing the demos at the '96 Stereophile show in NY at the Waldorf. I also got to hear them for an extended time period in a home environment, properly set up. As far as the Quad /sub system you feel would walk all over the Lascalas, let me remind you I listen at over 100 db and peaks above regularly. I do not think the panels would handle it for long. I am enjoying our differences and respect your opinions. As you said earlier, this is a very personal topic. Let us all enjoy ! |
I can see and do agree that the Mods you listed would make a huge difference on that speaker. Also agree with your assessments of ML and the quads 63. Never heard an ML that i could take home , OK , But !!!
I did have a 63 with custom subs and upgraded power supply and they were not bad , actually pretty good dynamically but not a super speaker in the dynamic world. I would wager the 63's with the custom subs would walk all over the lascala, ear busting SPl's not withstanding..
Without the Subs and the a for mentioned Mods.. errr worthless IMO ...
Really good panel speakers or Dynamic speakers will give nothing up to horns in the SPL dept, in a conventional home environment IMO.
I do believe if you heard one done and setup correctly you would not go back to Horns! Of course if i ever hear a mega zolt Macumba horn system that blew my mind, I would be the first one here singing there songs of praises.
I do not speak of this lightly, I'm not biased to any topology , only to good sound. Just Last week i had the privilege to listen to a custom horn setup , fully active 3 way (BMS driver, no tubes) and i was very surprised of the clarity in the upper ranges (the top end was actually excellent) the overall sound and presentation was good on soft rock type music, but still found the presentation fatiguing and with poor perspective and tonal quality.
Another was the Acapella Acoustics, La campanella , better than the custom BMS setup IMO and I would have liked to play with them a bit, as these were not bad , but still no cigar..
I'm still waiting , listening and all ears .....
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Weseixas, I find problems with the stock Lascala, mostly box resonance of the doghouse(a Klipsch forum term for woofer housing). I have completely eliminated this problem, which I can tell you is present in your friends units. The new Lascala II uses a beefier cabinet to get rid of this coloration. I talk about it in an earlier post. Tubes are from a by gone era, but look at the popularity and, resurgence, of the topology. The Heritage series was ahead of its time, and many designs have not caught up. Let me also say I have owned MLogans and have much experience with ESL63s. Nice sound. But they are congested in their dynamics, "at least to me ". Now what will they do at 100db and above? Once again, this is all based on my ears, then my heart...Thanks.... |
Mr Decibel , Fair enuff and thanks for responding, it works for you, that's a fact no one can dispute and the lascala has been around long enuff for most to hear, my self included and are relativity easy to acquire...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/trends/ta10_3.html
From 6 moons:
The La Scalas have their own way of conjuring up the magic of music. They are so un-hifi that you won't bother to look for the pin-point imaging or high resolution layering - and yet nothing is missing from the total sonic tableau. You are listening with your heart rather than with your ears.
Ahhh, I do have 2 friends with the same Klipsh speakers and while i do not mind the sound , i have no heart, pure ears! . -)
PS: The Klipsch are from a by gone era , i do like the nostalgic value of it , along with old altecs and JBL's , i did have an Altec in the 70's , before discovering panel speakers... |
I am responding to a few of you. My system sounds wonderful on all music. I compare what I hear to live unamplified music, as stated previously. I particularly mentioned this recording because many systems I have listened to (I bring this with me) fall apart in one or more ways. I will tell you I have heard horns and horn based systems I did not like. I have heard planar and box type speakers I have liked. I have owned many of these types. I have not said I love horns. I have said I love "my" horns. The Klipsch Lascala. The fact that they found their way very quickly into peoples homes for music listening is what got me interested in them many years ago. My 1st Klipsch Heritage speaker experience(a long long time ago) was Khorns with Marantz 9s/7C in a room properly dimensioned. Sources at the time were vinyl and 15ips master tapes. Loved the musicality and the voicing. The full range bass horn was more melodic than anything I had heard before( in a 20x26 ) room. It is an experience I will not forget. My box speakers(B&WDM6,AR3A as examples) sounded constricted and ill defined. My DQ10s imaged better than the Khorns, but everything else seemed lifeless. These Khorns were owned by a college professor of mine, and we spent a lot of time swapping equipment around at his place. I never had good corners for Khorns. As an audiophile, I have to say I did not like any speaker in or near a corner. Then Paul Klipsch designed, at least for me, his best design. So I am saying again, I love MY horns. I will be happy to continue any further discussion or debate but I must go... cheers. |
World's greatest catch-all argument for your favorite thing.....whatever it may be.
"You just haven't heard one properly set up!"
Ah!! But of course!! How unlucky for the rest of the world that there are so FEW amazing systems out there. Please tell me, where do I go to buy one this instant and who can I get to "properly" set it up?!
Indeed, for this particular thread, Weseixas makes THE most compelling argument. Though you could almost miss it. If your live reference (assuming you have "live" as a reference) is amplified music then it's no wonder horns are so appealing. And, sadly, these day's that's pretty much everything. Kinda hard to find live amplified music that doesn't have multiple horns in it. |
Atmashere ,
You leave out one critical part of your thesis, planers radiate sound from both sides , this ability helps to create the required space and time of a recording far more accurately than any monopole transducer.
Horns will always sound like hi-fi, never real , they project sound in a manner where all instruments and voices have the same projection and size. The best you can say is that they sound just like an amplified concert 40 ft away. Unfortunately we listen to recordings of live music and not live music itself , as such Horns do not convey this as accurately IMO.
A good planer setup will do everything for power as a good horn setup will and sound more like real instruments to boot.
Anyone who says a good planer sounds like a horn or vis a vie has never heard a good planer setup ...
Regards, |
06-18-10: Mrdecibel said " I truly believe many of you horn haters have not heard a "proper" horn set up" ...
This might be true Mr decibel , heard my first on in 1973 my last one last week , so in 37 yrs nothing , not one good horn setup .. from the home made ones , to others costing tens of thousand ... nothing Hmmm and it's not hate mr D, it's just not my cup of tea objectively or subjectively...
I do believe you non-horn haters have never heard a "proper"
speaker setup ... a shame !
LOL.. |
Mrdecibel,
Every hi-fi system will have that one track where it shines, it's when confronted with differing music types, is where most fails.
I love my non-horns ..........
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06-18-10: Mrdecibel
A cd recording from 1984 on the Denon/Nippon Columbia Japan label : Eddie Gomez : 38C38-7189 - 9 tracks - A recording , inho, where many systems fail.....it is jazz and has it all.....I love my horns ! |
Eldartford, cheesy horns do have resonances, the way many other speaker technologies do. A good horn has less resonance than the your speakers do though. Don't misunderstand me here, I totally empathize with people that have trouble understanding this last point!
As you point out, sound radiates as a spherical wavefront, no doubt why Quad made the ESL63 a semi-spherical device.
A horn often uses a diaphragm that has a similar semi-spherical shape, only it is much larger when it emerges from the mouth of the horn. This may explain why so many people, on hearing good horns, comment that they sound like the best planars, only with greater dynamic impact.
IOW my experience of horns is that planars are really the only thing that compete with horns for naturalness of timbre, coherence and detail- cones don't seem to keep up.
So I rate horns first if they work right (last if they don't), planars second in the firmament and cone systems last. |
Eldartford. What resonances are you speaking of ? I ask you all. Does your system have qualities of a live ,unamplified venue ? Live music does not "damp" anything. I am not clear of what you speak..... I truly believe many of you horn haters have not heard a "proper" horn set up. A shame, really.... |
Herman... Sound radiates as a spherical wavefront (except as interrupted by walls). At the distance of the listener or microphone the spherical wavefront is nearly a flat plane. The microphone samples this wavefront at a point, and a planar speaker sends it on to the listener as a plane, almost the same as the original wavefront. How better to reproduce a planar wavefront than by a planar transducer?
The diaphram of a planar speaker (like a Maggie) uses stratigically placed mass to damp resonances, but these low frequency anomalies are easier to correct than the high frequency resonances of horns. |
A cd recording from 1984 on the Denon/Nippon Columbia Japan label : Eddie Gomez : 38C38-7189 - 9 tracks - A recording , inho, where many systems fail.....it is jazz and has it all.....I love my horns ! |
Pretty broad spectrum of feelings about horns - all the way from love to hate. It seems to be a subject that is unresolved for most of us. If you are one who feels like he'd like to explore horn ownership, what keeps you from making the move? |
Herman, just to be clear here: I don't know the actual impedance of the drivers in the Duo, but in a case where the minimum impedance is 8 ohms, I would expect most amplifiers will have the voltage response to handle that. Its when you go from 19 or so down to 4 ohms that many smaller tube amps are challenged. So- I think we agree on this one :) |
Hey everyone, MrD again. This thread intrigues me so much, because I really love my set up. Yes, I own horns. I have spent many years buying and selling, trying this and trying that, listening to this and listening to that. From these experiences, I have determined what I want a system to do for me. My system is not for background music. My system is to transport me to an illusion of "what I think" is the real thing. Be it rock, classical or jazz. A piano must sound like a piano,sax like a sax,violin like a violin,drums like drums, voices clear and articulate. Can I follow the artistry of each and every musician, starting and stopping on a dime. Does Berry Oakley, Butch Trucks and JJ Johanson carry the tempo and rhythm to make my feet tap. To make my head nod up and down. When Duane and Dicky are strutting their stuff and Gregg is pulling it all together, I am in the audience. They are playing for me. My system has disappeared and has created a lifelike representation of being there. Sound stage has height, width and depth. From an incredibly black, noiseless background, to amazing shadings of micro and macro dynamics, this is what recorded music should sound like. My speakers were designed by a brilliant designer and engineer, for "live sound" reinforcement. I feel blessed that I was able to afford them, to have a room that can accommodate them and to have a wife that puts up with all of it. Thanks again for listening to my rant.... |
Thanks Ralph, that makes sense but I wonder how it affects the sound? I have the high impedance drivers so the mid and tweet in parallel won't go below about 8-9 ohms at the high end assuming a resistive load. So it seems to me all my amp has to be able to do is maintain the output voltage into 8 ohms. That seems easy enough.
Getting ready to spin my copy of the Dukes of Dixieland "Barn Burner" since I now know it is the only thing that sounds good on my system.
Glad I don't have planar speakers. I guess the only thing that sounds good on them are flat instruments like the washboard and the gong.
. |
06-15-10: Eldartford
As I have said, horns do Dixieland jazz superbly, but I can't listen to Dixieland all the time.
Thanks for setting us all straight on that crucial statement, I will now have to sell 99.9% of my collection. |
With a frequency response of 300 Hz. up to 14 Khz. from a single distortionless driver, it seems like a no-brainer that everyone would want this performance. Why don't you use horns? Because I get this and more (useful 60hz - 14,000hz) from my single driver speakers with no horn reflections/ colorations in a much smaller package to boot. |
Atmasphere, we may haven taken different paths in the woods, but we're in the same woods.:-) |
Unsound, Herman and I agree on something :)
Herman, The reason the Trios and probably Duos have such an impedance curve has to do with the way the crossover works. Let's use the Duo as an example, but this is only an example, my experience with the Duo (even though a lot more of our customers use them than Trios) is limited.
So we have the main horn and let's assume that it is 8 ohms. Then there is the tweeter horn and it is 8 ohms too. Now if there is a cap to keep lows out of the tweeter, what happens is that at low frequencies the amp sees the 8 ohms of the main horn. Since there is no choke to keep highs out of the horn, the main horn will be in parallel with the tweeter at tweeter frequencies. So the impedance drops to four ohms because the amp has to drive the main horn and the tweeter too. The Trio uses an expanded 3-way version of this scenario.
If there is a crossover offered that has more than caps in it I think it will be a big step forward for that speaker! |
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Are properly implemented horns that rare? Perhaps, but I would argue that properly implemented high end systems are rare. I've seen a lot of systems in peoples homes that despite their best efforts just don't sound all that good. Most people don't understand the interaction of the different components and selecting input and output impedances that work well together, picking the right amp for a particular speaker, how to integrate it all into the room, and the list goes on. It's not easy. I think it would be very easy to audition a number of horn systems and come away blaming poor performance on a particular aspect of the system when it was actually something else.
Like I've said before, it is a shame everybody can't get a chance to audition everybody else's system. These threads are fun but they settle nothing until you can hear what the person is talking about. |
P.S. forgot to mention....... (yet again)
On the chart, a VK-1000 is just a monobloc version of the VK-500. |
@ Almarg/Herman........
Well, a couple things are certain here.
1) first and foremost, it was classless to get personal and call names with Herman. My sincere apologies on that.
2) I've become completely lost in what has been said by me, by others. What hasn't been said, yadda yadda yadda. I know I have a habit of letting my thoughts move faster than my fingers and too often key words such as "maximum", "maybe", etc etc. get left out and totally screw up the intended meaning.
3) I've fallen prey to remembering particular specs incorrectly and assuming the numbers were correct without going back and verifying by actual math.
4) I just don't care anymore.
Herman, you asked me to stop. At first I was acting on emotion and didn't want to. But I calmed down and decided to stop. But I keep coming back to read more about horns and keep seeing new posts directed at me. Posts filled with animosity, deservedly so. To a point. Is it okay to state at this time that you've more than made your point? I'm stopping. Done. I made a few mistakes along the way. You're not the idiot I too quickly assumed. Admitted. Done.
One last attempt at an amiable contribution on BAT amplifier power.......
Um, well, you guys figured out where the 26dB gain number came from. The 400W was a partial guestimate based on (incorrect) memory, partially from a chart taken from an older Music Fidelity paper. Had nothing to do with actually running the numbers, not knowing actual input sensitivity.
I could have sworn a VK-600 was the same as a pair of VK-250 in one chasis. Nope, remembered that wrong too. Slight differences there.
But I found this for you guys to chew on and play with. (since it seems you're kind of 'into' figuring this out.)
BAT has an old page of specs that can still be accessed directly. http://www.balanced.com/products/amp/specs.O.shtml
Obviously the simple act of paralleling doesn't DOUBLE (definitely wrong there) but the power does go up. Interesting.......
Compare the charts for the VK-250 and VK-250M. Same gain. Same input sensitivity. 50W difference at 8ohm. Note also the VK-500 and VK-1000. Same gain. Same input sensitivity. 100W difference at 8ohms.
I point these out for you to play with because I KNOW (no really, I mean I REALLY know this time) that the only difference in these two comparisons is the internal paralleling of the inputs and outputs. No switches to be flipped. No changing rails. In fact you could take either stereo unit and convert it to mono without ever opening the chasis.
FWIW |
This is why I do not spend a lot of time with forums...We are a unique crowd, with so much passion and opinion. We need to all get along. We are all after the same thing. We are all looking for our own interpretation of what the musical truth is. We are all trying to capture that musical nirvana. Taking recorded music and turning it into a live performance....It is not easy..... |
Macrojack ... Horn Nazi ... LOL!!!!!
Macro why do you insist on being rude to those discussing their point of view in a thread started to do just that ?
There are others here in the know, open your mind and listen!
regards, |
Unsound,
"no soup for you!" |
Herman, While all systems deserve considerations regarding placement, associated gear and room treatment, I don't remember box speaker, or for that matter any other speaker design enthusiasts making such prerequisite qualifications. Are properly implemented horns that rare? |
Unsound, I agree his posts are hard to read but your point isn't specific to horns and really has nothing to do with how they sound. here doesn't seem to be a consensus by horn enthusiasts as to; when exactly a horn is implemented properly. Perhaps when that can be determined, the horn haters will give horns yet another chance. Look how many variations there are with box speakers like you have. Once the box speaker enthusiasts reach a consensus I'll give them another try. . |
Good show Dave ........ LOL and very correct !
06-15-10: Sogood51
I'm glad I gave up my audiophile card long ago, because thats when music became fun again. My Apogee dipole panel speakers are fun to listen to, and so are my horns (Klipsch).
My Bose 901's out in the garage are also fun....and so are my big old ugly VMPS Supertower/R's.
When I was an audiophile, I rarely found music or speakers that were fun, and once the fun was gone......so was I.
After around 5 years I came back for another try, and with a new goal......."Don't worry, be Happy"....and have fun!
Dave
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Popularity is not synommous with quality. Horns have been around a long time, for a number of reasons. Perhaps, because of early amplifier limitations and/or perhaps because much like today, they work well for creating great volume for great spaces. It would appear to me, at least on this thread, that there doesn't seem to be a consensus by horn enthusiasts as to; when exactly a horn is implemented properly. Perhaps when that can be determined, the horn haters will give horns yet another chance. Till then, your ill mannered upper case insulting shouting doesn't improve the quality of your argument, it compromises it. |
