Why is the price of new tonearms so high

Atmasphere, 20 years thats impressive not a lot lasts that long in this hobby. Problem for me is I have only single ended input on my amp and the MP1/MP3 seems to have only balanced output. Another thing is I wasnt really looking for a line amp but I see that my dealer has both the MP1 and MP3 so I might give them a listen. Is it possible to only use the phono stage?

Axel, my thought was that looking at these pics for example http://www.thomas-schick.com/FR64.htm that the spring is in the turret so there will be no moment like the counterweight has force times the distance away from the turret? Maybe this is not important at all Im just thinking high school mechanics with force arrows.

Dear Axel, dear Pär, - as for the Schick-site and the FR-inside-photos shown there......
Did you notice that there is hardly any grease around the VTF-spring? That isn't but 1/8 of should be there - and was there when new.
In picture 3 counting from above you can see the inner opening of the rear of the FR-tonearm pipe.
Do you notice that there is another pipe inside the outer (as original described by I. Ikeda) armwand?
This is usually called inside tapered......... can it be, that this is the reason why I still can't hear this internal ringing and the distortions described by the mexican authority on FR-tonearm ?
Well - I have so far only opened up, serviced, re-wired and put together into flawless action again about a dozen FR-60 tonearms - so I am not that much into the inner design of these specific tonearms as others.
But as this is now brought up by someone who is not - like me - half-deafed by a hearing which desperately longs for distortion, I feel free to guide some of your attention to this point.
This is done to re-establish the high regard a genuine designer like I. Ikeda deserves.
He has addressed issues other think they have discovered 20 years ahead of them.
However - I admit, that there are cartridges around which indeed do tease the ears with a sonic presentation which is anything but smooth, mellow or distortion free.
But in that case I would always look to geometry first -for good reason.....
Cheers,
D.

Perrew
that pic is rather misleading.
There would **always** be a counterweight, never not spring only... at least I've not come across a spring only arm.
(Can't see how this even could be made to work.)

To make my point look at: http://www.zenn.com.sg/FR64as.JPG

Cheers,
Axel

heck! never *not* spring only = never spring only...

Dear Axel, of course - you need the counterweight to balance the tonearm.
Now we have the state of balanced.
Dynamically balanced means ............. no, I think this belongs to someone else to clarify.
My knowledge is too limited - we have other experts on theoretical physical details in tonearm design.
Cheers,
D.

Hey D.
it was our dear friend: Perrew, asking that CW related question, by (I guess) looking at a dismantled arm pic sans CW, OK :-)

Yes thats true but I was using the picture to argue that the spring would result in zero moment as opposed to the static which uses the CW to hold the needle down, but as I said dont know if this is important.

Dear Axel, I was only refering to the pictures to illustrate a point which is floating around in this thread since a long time.
Something which is here - put on teh web by a source which is VERY different from me - shown for all to see that some less than bright remarks about the construction of the tonearm-designs I. Ikeda made in the late 1970ies are plain wrong and without any support by reality.
Cheers,
D.

Hi D.
please ac you try and answer Perrew's question if you may. Not sure what he is getting at. If there is a CW, it will move, dynamic or static.

Maybe you can answer this more appropriately? (...since Raul is still in bed :-)
Axel

Hi Axel, Pär, - well Pär is on the right track.
The counterweight do act in both modes to balance the tonearm.
In the static mode it additionally determines the VTF.
BUT - and this is the one big point - when the counterweight determines the VTF the tonearm itself is no longer balanced......
Pär's idea with the high school force vectors is leading the way.
The rest is to be added by and when our friend and final authority has finished his breakfast.
Cheers,
D.

OK, quickly before breakfast is over.
>>> - when the counterweight determines the VTF the tonearm itself is no longer balanced......<<<
Neither is it once VTF with a spring is applied. Just that one un-balancing force in 'gravitational' and the other 'non-gravitational'.

Now take ~ 1g VTF (in the case of a Shure V15 cart, Empire, etc.) and we start splitting a fleas ...hair.
A.
OK, let's see what gives after breakfast :-)

Hi Axel,...... sorry, but you are not entirely correct here.
Do not mix static balanced with dynamic balanced.
Even with the spring VTF applied (no matter if 0.75 mN or 5 grams...) the tonearm is still dynamically balanced on this and any other planet with decent gravity.
Everything here is about the dynamic behaviour in movement - looking just at the static mode its looks as if tehre is no difference......... but there is a big one once the spring-mass-system of the cantilever/tonearm gets into action.......
As I do not want to fall back in my prior dogmatic behaviour - which was critizsed for good reason and which has stepped on so many less egomanic toes - I gladly leave the stage for others to shine a light here.
Halcro - am I doing better....?.
Cheers,
D.

D. very well,
no need for lengthy scientific discourse.

How about some info on the world-wide-web?
If there's something, excellent. If not, I guess we ARE being a bit esoteric then.

It gets also back (for me) to the placement of the pivot, to be EXACTLY at record (surface!) level, plus the CW's mass in line with this pivot, in line with the stylus, in line with the whole mass distribution of it all. Oh, yes Sir!

Nothing wrong with this at all, but which 'arm ACTUALLY will have this all sorted (other then Raul's when it's finished...)?

Like the PERFECTLY proportioned human, according to Leonardo da Vinci...
A.
PS: Don't tell me the FRs go this all sorted... and we lost it all over the last 30 years :-)

Hi Axel, its not a lengthly scientific discourse at all.
Its very easy and fast to describe in 3-5 sentences.
As for the bearing-in-horizontal-line-with-stylus-thing......
When in horizontal line?
By correct applied and groove-compliant VTA.......
Or in static state with armpipe horizontal.....
Or with cantilever in a certain angle while tracking......

Most 12" tonearms do indeed have their bearing in line with surface level when the VTA is groove-compliant and the cartridge isn't with very little or very large outer dimensions.

Another nice episode of the endless struggle theory vs practice......
Funny isn't it?

Cheers,
D.

D.
actually one good argument for an SME 12", since it now will not touch the record any longer, if going that low.
I must remember that.
AND as you indicate between the lines ---- the cart has to play ball!!!

Cart too tall? Everything moves too high above the record surface (never mind 1/10mm) of cart suspension / cantilever change(s).

It once again give me a clue about all this mysterious synergy business.
A.

For that price range and to achieve the performance levels expected, everything must be in sync and tuned in exactly, which requires considerable expertise.

Otherwise buying an expensive tonearm must surely be a waste. You have to be seriously dedicated to accomplish this I believe. Otherwise, I would think you may as well save your money, unless just looking at a really nice tonearm alone turns you on.

Dear Axel: Yes I was in bed! The subject of dynamic/static balanced way in a tonearm design is one of the factors where we have to take a choice or to build both designs ( like the new ones from Ortofon. ).

It is obvious that the static one works strictly by the gravity forces where in theory and due to the record " waves " makes that the VTF " suffer " changes accros the record traks and according with those " waves " but this kind of behavior prevail ( in minor way. ) in the dynamically balanced design.

That behavior (vtf ) change in both designs according with the kind and quality of the tonearm bearings, the tonearm effective length and the total tonearm/cartridge effective mass. Now, we have to take in count too the left-right tonearm/cartridge movements that affects too.

Axel, this dynamic/ static tonearm subject is important but in real playback conditions we can achieve extremely good results with either design if the design is a good one, if the excution of that design is a good one too and if the tonearm build materials are the right ones.

But a customer can't know if all those tonearm design facts are acomplish in a tonearm till he put to work with a cartridge and see which is the quality performance level on that combination.

By design the tonearm ( static/dynamically ) must be neutral: adding no distortions ( any kind ), and this ( neutrality ) is the main goal in a tonearm design. A very hard task due to many relationship between different parts in the tonearm itself and with the additional cartridge own behavior of its design.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

Raul,

are you building a tonearm yourself and if so could you shortly elaborate on the design goals/route you have chosen?
Tks
Pär

Dear Mapam, you are absolutely right. This is the one point that I simply don't understand.
Why do so many audiophiles,- who talk in length about the sometimes subtle differences in cartridges or super expensive cables or preamplifiers - say that its o.k. if the alignment seems fine but its not necessary to adjust for the fraction of a mm.
The polished area of a modern day stylus is 1 x 6 µm ....... that is 1/1000 mm x 6/1000 mm.
You do not get the right picture if you do not work precisely.
A mm off and you are no longer in the street, in fact you are no longer in the same part of the city........
The point is not that the dynamically balanced tonearm has small advantages with warped records - the advantages are fairly large.
Furthermore, each and every records surface and groove-walls aren't perfect flat.
During the run of a record groove the tonearm/cartridge combination does in fact perform a constant hill and valley parcours - hundreds of small up and downs.
Each up and down does alter the tracking force - just a bit of course, but then we are talking subtle changes ONLY in all of analog high-end.
That is why a dynamically balanced tonearm sounds "quiter" (for some ears with a less dynamic set-up it may sound "less live-like") and more relaxed than a static balanced tonearm whose cartridge does track with constant changes in its VTF.
This is not just my opinion, but everybody will agree if he makes a small drawing of the - thank you Perrew! - force vectors involved.
We are fooling ourselves if we do not work absolutely precise and if we do not apply those technical features which are easily available.
Precision is not easy and may consumpt some time and effort.
But it is the heart of the game and the door to true high-end sound.
The one and only door - too often missed by too many set-ups.

"God lives in the detail....... "(M.v.d. Rohe, an architect)

Settle for less and you waste a large portion of your investment.
Its the same as running your high performance car with 20 year old tires well past any profile......
Cheers,
D.

Perrew, one could use the tape outs of our preamp, but one function of the linestage that most people don't realize is that it must control the interconnect cable as well. In a stand-alone phono section this does become a source of coloration. That is why our preamps are full-function.

You can convert from balanced to SE at the input of the amplifier with an adapter or cable made for the purpose. It is nice not to be limited by cable length or quality (cost)- something not possible with single-ended cables.

So it sounds like the dynamic balanced tone arms have always positive VTF due to 'preload' provided when record is spinning by the spring. As Raul indicated, dynamically balanced may not be exactly the right term (not 100% balanced at every slice of time but still close enough to maintain contact, always), but the point is there is always positive VTF v/s -negative at times( warped records, highly dynamic music contents. etc). Thanks, no wonder I never come across this term as all my three tone arms are 'statically balanced' ( Clearaudio master TQ1. , SPJ by La Luce and Transrotor RB250)

I would guess terminolgy will still apply for tangential ton arms. Any tangential arms come with spring loaded VTF? Another question, while I am at it is: Why sound and freq balance changes higher the VTF gets? How do you know what is right VTF other than by ear? What is max VTF? What if higher than allowable max sounds right?

This is an interesting discussion. My experience with dynamic vs. static is with the Grado arm. Joe Grado said that the best result was with 1/2 each or 1/3 2/3 (and I forget if that meant spring was more or less). My system back in that time was a VPI HW 2, Grado XTZ, AR SP-11, Rowland 5, Infinity RS2-b, not IRS status but yet still revealing. I could not hear the difference between the static and dynamic. I was not playing warps though. I believe in market forces and that if spring VTF was thus superior then all arms would have it. I also believe that the tone arm bearing type is more important than the VTF system. You can see market forces here as well... I think more than most top arms are uni-pivots, though this is not from actual sales figures by arm type, just a guess by all the words we all write and the types I see available in English speaking sites and magazines.

Peter

I had assumed, perhaps incorectly, that this discussion of dynamic vs. static balance was in relation to gimbal pivot arms like my SME V. But Breuninger has me now thinking about the different effect each of these balance types have on gimbal vs. unipivot designs. I am also now curious if more arms currently in use are gimbal- or uni- pivot designs.

As far as Raul describing which design priciples he is persuing with his new arm, I doubt he would want to discuss specifics before the design is complete, but if he is, that sure would be an interesting contribution to this thread.

We have gotten way off the original question of this thread which was pretty much covered in the first few responses. For my part, I apologize. Perhaps there should be a separate arm-design thread.

Dear Perrew/Syntax: As Peterayer with good sensitivity posted I can't disclosure the whole design but I can speak a little on some highlights/goals in the tonearm design.

Why exist too many different tonearms designs out there? which is the target on each one? unipivots, gimbal, pivoted or linear tracking ? same cartridge in different tonearm design sounds/perform different: why?

trying to have answers to these and other tonearm related questions makes Guillermo and me to investigate about and so was interesting/learning and emotive what we found that we decided to intent our self tonearm design with very specific targets.

As Dertonarm posted somewhere the first tonearm design steps ( mainly on tonearm geometry. ) are really easy to have on paper and develop but the right geometry is only a " routine " tonearm design step.

I learn through the years running several different tonearms and several different cartridges that the matching between a tonearm and the cartridge is of critical importance to the cartridge can show us at its best and I'm nt refering only to match the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency match but a real match between the behavior of the tonearm and the behavior of the cartridge: this relationship is extremely complex for say the least and that's why ( till today ) there is no single tonearm ( any kind ) out there where we can say: this is a Universal tonearm.

What means a UNIVERSAL tonearm design?, well a dream come true tonearm design where any cartridge and I mean any cartridge ( MC/MM ) ALWAYS can show us its best quality performance like in no other vintage/current tonearm designs.

Well, this was/is our main target/goal when more than three years ago we start in our tonearm design.
A very ambitious target that when I think on it again makes me think we were really " crazy " trying to achieve an almost impossible target.

All the tonearms that I own and many more that come borrowed by my audio friends help us to test more than 100 cartridges ( MM/MC. The last two MC were the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme and the Koetsu Coral. ) that in different conditions and in those tests confirm that we achieve our main target: a UNIVERSAL tonearm, yes we did it the tonearm ( still with out name ) makes that any cartridge performs better by a wide margin against any other tonearm.

We almost finish our last prototype and right now I'm testing in deep the " infrastructure " that between other things makes this UNIVERSAL tonearm the most user-friendly tonearm ever: it comes with a unique VTA on the fly and with a unique arm lift mechanism, we cope with all the geometry and desirable mechanism/parameter/factor you can imagine on a tonearm design, yes is a pivoted one, 250mm on effective length, its main build material is a propietary/patent blend material, self mounting, etc, etc.

Yes Syntax this is the newest tonearm where I'm playing and ejoying like in no other time each cartridge that I mount on it.

I have no words ( new words ) to describe its NEUTRAL quality performance, IMHO no one of you can even imagine how a cartridge performs in our tonearm design ( this is a totally new experience that we really can't imagine before we made the very first test!!!!! ): even we are a little on " surprise " about its performance.

Through the design time I have a lot of new experiences for example: if you read in the MM long thread I posted in the thread ( right in the thread ) that the AT-20SS cartridge was a very difficult cartridge to mate with a tonearm and find the right set-up well three weeks ago I mounted for the first time in our tonearm prototype and guess what?: immediately works and performs like ever in a simple way and with out " fighting " with the set-up.

Other example: with cartridges that due to its characteristics put the resonance frequency below 8Hz and over 12Hz the quality performance were just splendid like if that resonance ( out of target ) figure was of no importance at all!!!

We don't know yet the precise date for the tonearm goes to the " light but I think this could be in other two-three months maybe a little longer.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

You're going well Daniel.........but I didn't mean for you to be cryptic with your knowledge?
Give us the full Detonarm information ego....... just a little less of the dogma?
Tcheuss Henry

Dear Henry, can't do that right now - if I did I would make a strong and detailed remark about the phrase "universal tonearm" and would show that this is a contradiction in terms.

Just out of curiosity - while I am in my TT project I will demonstrate my concept about a pivot tonearm too.
Kind of side-show.
Maybe we will see the mexican born tonearm first, but mine will be published shortly after.
It won't take me years, - can't, since I always claimed it is fairly simple and easy.
I will address those points all the "others" haven't even thought about before.
That tonearm will not work with ALL cartridges, but it will work with the 20-30 best.
It will not work and can't be mounted on all TT's - but it will work and can be mounted on the best.
And it will show that all my former remarks about the topic were made for good reason.
The very best is never universal.
A tonearm - even with adjustable moving mass and interchangeable armwands - can never suit all cartridges.
The tonearm is always part of a spring-mass-system were it forms only one part of that system.

Is there a universal cartridge?
Is there a universal car?
Is there a universal plane?

Trying to make a tonearm universal or claim it is shows big enthusiastic pride about a product/component, but shows a basic lack of..........

We'll see.
Halcro ..... you wanted me to give an acid test.
We'll have it.
Good sports.

Cheers,
D.

Oh this gets better and better, two new fantastic arms to choose from, my TT can mount two....

And now the ten thousand dollar question, whats the price of those arms Raul and Dertonarm?

Hi Pär, Raul's will be a market product.
Mine will only be available for a few selected audiophiles - but I will nevertheless publish the tonearm.
As I said - kind of the long requested "acid test" (... and I will proof, that it will withstand even aqua regia ).
The big problem is - this is one thing I guess Raul and I agree upon - that you can't put an "all-assault"-top flight component to the market today with a price tag lower than the competition.
If a new Top-high-end tonearm is introduced and his price tag is half of the big Continuum, new DaVinci, Air Tangent (still around ?) etc. - no one will take it seriously.
In other words: you introduce the "best universal tonearm" ( NOT my words...) to the market and put a retail price tag on it of US$3890,-.
There are hundreds of potential buyers on this planet who won't take it seriously and will not even consider buying it to test.
No matter how fancy the cosmetics - no matter if its coming in a cherished antique finish wooden presentation box with gold plated dressings.
You put a price tag of US$20 000,- on the very same tonearm and you will sell 3 dozens to the far east market (and to Russia...) in the first 3 weeks.
Why ?
Because with this price tag the tonearm does transport a huge image, status and "face" to its buyer.

Strange new (not really...) world....

Cheers,
D.

P.S.: don't blame me now if R's tonearm comes with a very serious price tag...... its the market and the human nature who are to blame.

Hi All,
does the world need yet another tonearm, I ask?
Me, - I'm not so sure actually.

But here a few point I took note of:

We were getting our knickers in a twist over dynamic vs. static arm balance (all know by now what this is, yes?).

Along comes the innocent-man talking about a uni-pivot arm. Most of all, that ALL the best arms are uni-pivots - ha, hallo!
And nobody even raised a flag?!
Since we all have listened by now to the apparent 'must have' of dynamic balance ---- show me a uni-pivot with dynamic VTF!
THAT, is a contradiction in terms, and so the best arms (uni-pivot) are now fine sans dynamic balancing??

In fact, even a knife-bearing = pivoted (but not gimbled, like a compass) can NOT use dynamic balancing. The spring action will want to lift the arm off the bearing(s), and make it rattle.

As to the most talked about and therefore = best arms by deduction = uni-pivot --- Anti Skate is almost as problematic too.
The Skating force is not equal from begining to the end of a record, so any Anti-Skate is yet again a sort of compromise. With a uni-pivot it has the tendency to tilt the arm i.e. affect best chosen azimuth.

So then we can carry on by adding magnet stabilizers like AudioCraft and Graham, or add more pivot points like a 4Point Kuzma, but dynamic balancing --- no go!

So are we saying these arms "the most talked about" are also sub-optimal?
I really don't know, but it would suggest some designers are truly busy wasting their time with faulty design principals.

To be complete, all those 'string suspended' arms would of course also fall into the 'sub-optimal', as NO dynamic balance can/aught to be applied there also.

Funny thing is, those arms were all tested and found to sound really very good --- now what?

Axel

Yes thats the big problem, its always the tradeof between making money and having "street cred"/philantrophy. Anything that is slightly better than the previous best can always command a higher price but its also a cheap advertising trick raising your price up to the top and signaling Im the alpha male and thereby getting a head start. Its a lot more fun charging a lower price and still getting the respect you deserve for having the best(if a best can be established) product.

So as I said be real interesting to see where you two put your prices.

Hi Axel, we certainly do not need another tonearm.
Same with amplifiers, TTs, cartridges, Flat screen TVs, cars, airplanes, ships etc.
Its a matter of passion and to see if the current frontiers are the last.
Its about the entire search for (sonic...) beauty in mankind's world.

As for the different toenarm bearing-concepts and different concepts regarding balance.
Yes, - many ways may lead to Rome - but there is only one Via Appia and only one straight road leading direct to the Forum Romanum.......

The other roads lead to the center of Rome too - but the city-center is/was pretty large...... I want to go straight up to the first step of the capitol stairs and park my 4-horse-chariot there (I do not want to walk - its a fairly long road...) ..... SPQR.

And it will be most entertaining for me to boldly go where no man has gone before...... (...I really miss Captain Jean-Luc Picard and his discussions with Q.....).

Back from outer space to ancient Rome.
The old latin term "optimus" does not name a heterogenous group.
There is only one.

Sorry about that - its not my fault nor did I invent it.
Although I might very well again get some critics to bringing this up again.

Don't take it all too serious...
In humble remote.....
D.

All,
does the world need yet another tonearm, I ask?
Me, - I'm not so sure actually.

Hi you,
all is said since Side 1 in this Thread but let's repeat.
You can try it very easily:
you have SME, go out and buy a Phantom Arm with SME mount and do a comparison.
When you hear no difference: great, you save a lot of money in future
When you hear a difference: great, but for what?
In my experience from the last 10 years when I listened to many Systems and spoke with owners I can say, even in very expensive systems it is possible you can't hear a difference between Arm A and Arm B, Cartridge A or Cartridge B, when the System itself is limited all components are stopped at this limit. You can hear a little change but not the whole.
Most of these owners do a kind of description they read somewhere in a magazine, they stored it in their brain and after some time they reproduce it as a quality fact.
Based on that they sit in front of their Altar and want to spend money. They want to move on. But they don't want to sell their overpriced crap because it has got so many "super reviews" and all others "know" this brand and they are a serious audiophile in public.
When owning everything and knowing that it is more or less the same (stop, they don't know it, when they would know they would make a decision to go a real step ahead) they look for the wonder component, the one which makes the whole Systems 3x better than every Live-Performance.
This wonder unit can't be cheap. It has to be expensive. Wrong. More than expensive.
Limited.
And super expensive. Only that gives the guarantee that all others look up to my lips and this makes the audiophile world running.
We want it to, but we can't afford it. but some day, or in the next life, I will buy a Lyra "Olympos" (or Allaerts or a 50K Koetsu) too and I feel good.
Only this can give the real turn around in reproduction.
Ahem, can I do a pre-order (heheh, I am joking...)?

D. :-)
didn't know you could get THAT romantic.
Very nice, very German too, either shoot them or love them.
Schiller 'Die Raeuber'...

Syntax,
:-) very very well put, not that any audio mag would want to print it though...
But as you mentioned, it would make the audio-word stop turning ---- end of beautiful delicious fantasies, not nice.

There is this funny thing (methinks) that women listen to music, and men like to listen to equipment (sound).

Re.: Phantom, and SME mount --- would almost suggest some synergy, does it?

That optimum "D. arm", more-betta has only 1 set of connections, at the cart - else it will start competing with that Phantom's SEVEN! And so much for signal integrity, or?
No one seems to mention such 'basics' anymore, is that already all part of the common fantasy?

Hi Axel, every time I was in Britain people said to me: you are not german - you are french.
Every time I was in the US people said: you are not german - you're a typical englishman.
Most propably this doesn't make me a typical german - or especially that ??

I am of Cheruskan and Ubian blood and roots and maybe that tells the story about my romantic westphalian mind and the quests for absolute which I can not resist.

But - Syntax said it better and I believe if we close this thread with his last post we can call it round and fullfilled.
Excellent.

Cheers,
D.

Ah so, "Herman der Cherusker Koenig, who had led the Germanic tribes to defeat the Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD"

Now, .... methinks those Latins*) had more-betta watch out :-)

I guess that thread will 'chill-out' on it's own, we shall see.

A.
*)The Latins were an Indo-European people of the Italic branch.... etc. just to make quite sure.

Hi Axel, well - this is one specific area where my knowledge is far deeper than in tonearm geometry.

Arminus - only his roman name survived (Herrman is a german name given to him in the hey-days of german nationalism romantics during the 19th century when he was "discovered" as the first hero of a yet to become Germany ...) was raised, trained and educated in Rome ( sended their as a hostage of noble cheruscian blood being one of the sons of a cheruscian chieftain - back then there were no kings) and in the Legion and held the status of a noble roman knight by the year 9 A.D. (the most possible for a non-roman born citizen of the roman empire at that time).
He had a formidable career in the roman legion and was kind of a war-hero in Rome.
In late autumn he lured 3 roman legions - the 17th, 18th and 19th all in full war status and counting more than 18 000 - into a military trap and crushed them.

Most likely not in the Teutoburger Wald, but close to Kalkriese (Osnabrück - where the protestant party signed the "westphalian peace" which ended the 30-year-war from 1618 to 1648 ....... the roman-chatholic party signed in Münster..... after 30 years they still weren't even able to afgree on one place and to sit at one table...)

All this took place when he was still a roman knight and leading some 600-800 horsemen as auxiliary troops of the romans.
For the romans he was a traitor.
For his countrymen he was THE hero.
He hated Rome all his life - even if spending most of his life as a roman.
He defeated 1/8th of the complete Roman military machine and slaughtered all but a few dozens - it was the worst defeat Rome suffered in 400 years and it ended all serious Roman efforts to occupy territories east of Rhine and North of the Main forever.

In recent historic research this single event is more and more regarded as one of the key turning points in roman history.

The 17th, 18th and 19th legion were never recruited again and the 3 eagles got lost for some 25 years.
But eventually all 3 eagles got back to Rome.

The Roman credited their roots to the fugitives of ancient Troja - not Latium.
Latium was the geographic area.
Given the cool and controlled will, the excellent technical engineering and the strict dicipline and clear structures in the roman empire and early society, we can today only speculate about the origins of the romans.
Even the ancient Greek came into europe from the plains of central asia - the Dorer.
Most of ancient southern europe's people were immigrants.
In the north it were the celts and the teutonic/germanic tribes to name but a few.
And you thought you will never again be confronted with history after high school.......

You know Axel - I like to get to the core of things and like to be precise.

The question is..... what does this tell us about the high prices of todays tonearms......
Cheers,
D.

question is..... what does this tell us about the high prices of todays tonearms......
Cheers,
D.

Nothing.
But we don't die stupid.
Audiogon is great.

And this is all for FREE !!!
Maybe that is the message .........

Yes, some excellent discourse on the subject of the defenders of 'tonearms-of-the-later-days'.

The one tribe that was missing for my me, are the 'Allemannen'. Why the French actually call the Germans: Allemands.

If I recall correctly, they didn't even need an ex-Roman general to keep the Latins out. They whacked them badly in 259 AD.
These then known as Barbarians were much feared, as fierce and well organised opponents.

There is of course also lots more to it, as is to tonearms!

Now, Thorens, Brinkmann, Breuer and EMT, ALL come out of this former tribal area of the 'Allemannen'! :-)

Now most all of it is Euro-Zone today (some of Switzerland is also Allemannisch i.e. German speaking, -> Breuer) and might explain also: "Why the price of new tonearms is so high!

A.

Hi Axel, without getting into the subject again: the Allemannen were located in southern part of what is tpday Germany and around Lake Constance - and they still are. The other tribes in the northern part were the Sueben, Bruteker, Chatten, Angeln, Saxons, Friesen etc. to name but a few.
The french word for Germany has different roots and dates from medieval times.
Anyway - a nice wekend to all....
The history lesson is over - I promise.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Detornarm: +++++ " We'll see. " +++++

this was the only wise/mature statement that you made in your post in reference to our UNIVESAL tonearm design.

+++++ " I will address those points all the "others" haven't even thought about before. " +++++

I don't know of other tonearm designers but we know that we address all those points """ that others even thought before """. No you are not the only one, there are a lot of people that are good enough on what they do and even that are better than you, of course we are not the ones that are over you.

+++++ " That tonearm will not work with ALL cartridges, but it will work with the 20-30 best. " +++++

well our design will work with those 20-30 best ( even if that 20-30 best already have your design. ) and with any other cartridge out there but the FR series 7.

+++++ " It will not work and can't be mounted on all TT's - but it will work and can be mounted on the best. " +++++

well our UNIVESAL tonearm will work on that only the " best TT's " and in any other not " best " TT.

+++++ " A tonearm - even with adjustable moving mass and interchangeable armwands - can never suit all cartridges. " +++++

ony because you don't know/imagine how to do it does not means can't do it because in our design we already do it, could you imagine????

+++++ " while I am in my TT project I will demonstrate my concept about a pivot tonearm too. " ++++++

fortunatelly I don't have the necessity to demonstrate anything to justified my .......????? like you.

and like you say: we will see.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Axel/Perrew: IMHO always better alternatives ( no only different but better ones in quality performance. ) must be welcome in our audio world.

We customers/audiophile deserve better quality performance level ( even if we don't ask for it. ) audio items.

Better audio items means ( between other things ) better quality sound/music reproduction that we can enjoy it through our audio systems.
Better new audio products means too that we can have not only one " better " product but several " better " alternatives due to a " better " competition designs.

Better means that we are growing-up/walking through a better audio experiences and all these is just exciting for say the least.

egards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Any idea on the pricing Raul? Just approximately?

I, for one, am really enjoying this thread. Dertonarm has reappeared with a slightly less overbearing approach, which I appreciate. I loved the German/European history lesson as my mother is from Saxony - a town called Wurzen. She witnessed the bombing of Dresden to later escape from the East and meet my American father serving in the army at the time. She told him "Ich bin sachsisch", which must have given him ideas....early on in their relationship:)

The two tonearm projects have me really curious to learn more from these two gentlemen. All in good time, I'm sure. This is Audiogon at its best.

I'm still curious about which is the most popular type of pivoted arm in use today. Does anyone know?

Dertonearm and Raul, I have a suggestion for both of you that you will find very useful if you are not doing or have not done this already:

I'm all for advancing the art. One of the most useful things I have done that has helped me immensely is to have been involved with the recording of LPs, from start to finish. By that I mean refurbish a recorder to do the very best it can, get your hands on a set of the best mics possible (barring that get a set of the same type used in recordings you are familiar with), set up and produce a recording, engineer the whole thing such that you have an LP that really does have good sound that can be compared to the master tape that played back on the master tape machine.

Once having done that you will find it a lot easier to separate the wheat from the chaff!

Dear Atmasphere, I recorded - as chief executive engineer the Johannes Passion by J.S.Bach in 1986 in the Munich Philharmonic Hall with Enoch zu Guttenberg conducting the Neubeurer Choir and Members of the Munich Philharmonic.
I am very familiar with your recording of the Canto General.
I know my stuff and have followed the suggested way over 2 decades past.
Have a great weekend.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Raul, relax........
And don't worry.
The world is eagerly anticipating your tonearm.
Mine won't be half that interesting to the avarage Audiophile connaisseur - as everybody knows now - thanks to Dr. Raul and his medical insight - that my hearing is set on the need for distortion.
It will still be entertaining for many to see these 2 approaches.
So - we'll see.
I hope you have a peaceful sleep - your last post directed to me have raised some concern about your peace of mind.
Cheers,
D.

Dear Peterayer, the huge majority of todays tonearms is static balanced mode design and features gimbal bearings. Its a matter of economics - both in design effort as well as in financial input.
Cheers,
D.
P.S.:..... we made 200 again....