Dear Daniel: +++++ " Raul doesn't like their sound in his 10+ years memory ? " +++++
I sold my last FR-64 last year. I appreciate that don't post nothing that you are not totaly sure, especially when you are refering to me.
Everyone knows that you have " interest " in mantain the FR tonearms and that's why you made/make statements on them out of reality. Of course that the low know-how of the people help you to go on .
I repeat again: Mr. Ikeda was/is a very good cartridge designer and we can see through its cartridges where he puts his knowledge: FR-702 or the Ikeda REX9 type but IMHO and with respect to him his FR-64/66 are a plain so so tonearms that has nothing especial and that has nothing to talk about other that is a high resonant device due to the build material and construction that he choose to use, these facts you can change it only because you want to preserve the false " myth " on these almost mediocre tonearms.
That you and your friends like high distortions on what you hear or that you are already accustom/equalized to that " heavy " distortions can't mean that that almost mediocre tonearms can convert it in good tonearms, no way Sir.
This is not only my opinion. Here is what another person in whom I trust seriously because he does not only have a technical knowledge but he is a cartridge designer, pholinepreamp designer, he own or owned almost any tonearm and cartridges out there.
Like a cartridge designer he has to test his cartridges ( and other cartridges ) with several tonearms so he really know what is talking about, I'm reffering to J.Carr Lyra and Connosieur designer and here is what he posted on the subject:
++++ " I agree that the FR-66S would be somewhat better than the SAEC, but truth be told, I'm not overly enamoured of the "S" family either (and I say this as the long-time owner of a 64S with Elevation Base and Arm Stabilizer). The stainless steel is great to look at, but less great to listen to, " +++++
in the next one Daniel/Syntax ( I can't remember ) ask JC something on the FR subject ( Syntax posted that his Lyra performance in the FR-64S was something outstanding, I posted there that he likes those very high distortions that are always present on those FR tonearms, period. ) and here is the J.Carr post:
question:
+++++" >you might - if you haven't already done so... - give your Titan i a test in your FR-64s. The combo gives astonishing good results - despite the less great mass/compliance combination.<
answer:
Yes, I've already done so with the Titan i. Likewise the Olympos. I agree that the results can be quite OK - as long as you wrap a damper strip around the armtube or take measures to dampen it better. Otherwise the "fx" or "fc" variants are far more friendly to use. By the time Ikeda did the IT-345 and IT-407, he had gained a much better awareness of resonance control as compared to his FR days. " +++++
In the other side and returning to the thread I like Halcro can't agree with Dertonarm.
Tonearm design is not only technical knowledge/physics but testing that what physics says can sounds good. You don't design a tonearm by physics/computer modeling then build and think that you are done. Things not works in that way you have to test that first prototype and then make changes and build a second prototype and go on on these tests not only on the tonearm geometry but testing different type of bearings and bearing materials where you have to rebuild the prototype you have on hand, you have to test too arm wand/headshell build materials where you have to build several samples as several buildmaterials you have on mind and I can go on and go on on the subject.
Well all these test/research/test very hard work means time and money: a lot of time and a lot of money.
No Mr. Dertonarm a well made tonearm design is not ( like you say ): " +++fairly easy mechanical devices - where is the problem? "++++, Daniel you don't have any idea on the subject but you think that because you study physics or mathematics you can/could know everything but you are wrong to think and speak in that way. Like in the tonearm subject there are a lot of subjects where you are a simple person like any one else.
You can follow speaking of Newton/Galileo but that does not give you better EARS or real knowledge to judge music sound reproduction.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Axel: This is the wrap that in other thread I posted that used in the past and think that is the one that JC reffer too: http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/wrap.html
Now if your tonearm or other tonearm needs a wrap IMHO something is wrong with that tonearm or with the tonearm/cartridge combination or even in other link in the audio system chain.
Regards and ejoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Perrew: +++++ " do you think the Reed can compete with the dynamically balanced tonearms ... " +++++
in theory the dynamically balanced tonearms are a little better ( some advantages. ) that a static balanced one, I agree with Dertonarm in this subject.
But things are not so easy ( theory ) but how good is the design on that precise tonearm mechanism and its execution, IMHO tonearms like: FR, SME, Lustre, Sumiko, Micro Seiki, Dynavector, etc, all but the Micro Seiki MAX add resonances for the topology that use for the dynamically balanced mechanism ( using some kind of spring. ), the Micro Seiki use a different mechanism where the resonances are no-audible but in all the other tonearms those additional tonearm resonances are audible and that's why in the real world ( not theory ) all those tonearms are more neutral running in static way that in dinamically way.
I agree too that if you can't hear the differenes between static/dynamically then there are/is some other trouble in the audio chain that preclude to hear those bad resonances.
Perrew, nothing is perfect in our beloved audio world and what you have on " paper " in a tonearm design not always is achieved in the right way when the tonearm is build and running in our audio systems.
The implementation of a design is what make a difference between different quality performance level in tonearms.
The geometry and all the heory aplicated in a tonearm design is as good as the execution is and as good as the tonearm build materials choosed.
A tonearm design is a complex " task " where exist multiple factors to achieve top quality performance level, the static vs dynamically is only one of those multiple factors and not one that in the today/vintage tonearms makes " the difference " due to that " wrong " implementation.
IMHO we can have very good performance in either design if we know what to do on the design and execution tonearm design.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: I respect you first like a human been/person, second I respect your technical knowledge and in a lot less way your audiophile ears.
It is sad ( for say the least ) look at a guy like you with no real arguments trying to convice someone of something: ??? through " cry out " that you are the best, that you are the only one, that you already heard: whatever, that you are the only with the right cards, that you do not have question on audio, that you and that only you exist and not only that but that does not cares what other people things or if anyone disagree.
If all your bla, bla, bla, were reality then you don't have to take your time " crying out " again and again and again.
You say already heard a 2 million dollars system, well I already herad ( more than your 160 systems. ) at leat one millonaire system and so what.
For what you posted and insist in that fully dead ( FR tonearm ) by its " own right " tonearm you really do not learn almost nothing but IMHO ( you don't have to agree and you don't have to care: " fine with me " : ) not only you don't learn but you are almost deaf/unable to hear on sound music quality reproduction perception and even speak of audio items distortions with that so poor ears, nothing wrong with this there are no " perfect ears ".
Newton, Galileo and heard that 2 million dollar system can't help you to improve your ears perception. One thing is to know how much is 2+2 and a totally different thing is to own/have a experienced and discerning ears that you certainly do not have it does not matters what you " cry out " on the subject.
It is a sorrow that you try to " defend " a tonearm that has no defense right by its wrong design, period. Daniel you are Lost about real sound/music reproduction quality performance: those " mediocre " FR tonearms are already dig your audio grave.
With all respect: here and today and in the music/sound quality audio system real reproduction preception you are reference to nothing thank's to your beloved FR's ( and your beloved FR's audio friends maybe ( I can't say it. ) are at the same level than you, no reference here either.).
Your inferiority complex and your insegurity feelings goes against you and are hitting you again and again.
IMHO as you continue " crying out " ,that you and the FR's are the " ones " , in an intense and louder way as your grave goes deepest !!!!!, come on Daniel you are better than that.
Anyway Perrew: do you already have the answer you are looking for when you start this very interesting thread?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
|
Dear Halcro: The main FR tonearm subject is something not system dependent, geometry dependent, set-up dependent and the like.
The main subject is that resonances/distortions on the steel build material of those tonearms. Those distortions not only exist ( a fact ) but are worst than in other tonearms.
Dertonarm that is a wise guy knows that steel bad resonances/distortions but if anyone read to its posts he not oly does not speaks in a precise manner on the subject but he put and made a lot of noise/dust around ( he put like a smoke curtain. ) " trying " to distract the attention from that main subject and that's why he always is talking ( making noise ) about: Sea Cliff, his beloved friends, Cotter, telling hystories etc, etc.
He preach ( somewhere ) about neutrality like a goal in TT and tonearms but he defend a non-neutral tonearm due to the Mr. Ikeda choosen build material ( undamped steel. ). There is no coherence here and he knows.
Now, he says ( somewhere ) that through his hands already pass something like 60 FR tonearms where the majority were for sale. He is a wise man and IMHO he has a " private " interest in preserve the FR-64/66 myth.
I'm not using anymore those FR tonearms ( I own the FR especial base for the VTA on the fly that match the FR and Ikeda tonearms if any one is interested on it please email me because I don't need it anymore. ) due to its inherent distortions ( I repeat again and again due to that steel build material. ) and this is the main subject that he does not like to speak.
Maybe in reallity your ears are totally equalized to those FR heavy distortions and if is in that way it could be a frustation can't discern other superior and great alternatives to enjoy the music.
Daniel please no more noise/dust on the subject or go a head and take the " bull by its horns ".
Btw, Dertonarm of course that almost any person with the right experiences and knowing how an audio items sounds can has an opinion on an audio system only through the system description, I'm sure you can do it: that you don't want to do it does not means you can't or any one can't do it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Perrew: I wonder why a person like you that are a non-analog one ( at least I can't see any analog audio tem in your system. ) has an analog product question?
Could you explain it?
Thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Axel: Yes I was in bed! The subject of dynamic/static balanced way in a tonearm design is one of the factors where we have to take a choice or to build both designs ( like the new ones from Ortofon. ).
It is obvious that the static one works strictly by the gravity forces where in theory and due to the record " waves " makes that the VTF " suffer " changes accros the record traks and according with those " waves " but this kind of behavior prevail ( in minor way. ) in the dynamically balanced design.
That behavior (vtf ) change in both designs according with the kind and quality of the tonearm bearings, the tonearm effective length and the total tonearm/cartridge effective mass. Now, we have to take in count too the left-right tonearm/cartridge movements that affects too.
Axel, this dynamic/ static tonearm subject is important but in real playback conditions we can achieve extremely good results with either design if the design is a good one, if the excution of that design is a good one too and if the tonearm build materials are the right ones.
But a customer can't know if all those tonearm design facts are acomplish in a tonearm till he put to work with a cartridge and see which is the quality performance level on that combination.
By design the tonearm ( static/dynamically ) must be neutral: adding no distortions ( any kind ), and this ( neutrality ) is the main goal in a tonearm design. A very hard task due to many relationship between different parts in the tonearm itself and with the additional cartridge own behavior of its design.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Dear Perrew/Syntax: As Peterayer with good sensitivity posted I can't disclosure the whole design but I can speak a little on some highlights/goals in the tonearm design.
Why exist too many different tonearms designs out there? which is the target on each one? unipivots, gimbal, pivoted or linear tracking ? same cartridge in different tonearm design sounds/perform different: why?
trying to have answers to these and other tonearm related questions makes Guillermo and me to investigate about and so was interesting/learning and emotive what we found that we decided to intent our self tonearm design with very specific targets.
As Dertonarm posted somewhere the first tonearm design steps ( mainly on tonearm geometry. ) are really easy to have on paper and develop but the right geometry is only a " routine " tonearm design step.
I learn through the years running several different tonearms and several different cartridges that the matching between a tonearm and the cartridge is of critical importance to the cartridge can show us at its best and I'm nt refering only to match the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency match but a real match between the behavior of the tonearm and the behavior of the cartridge: this relationship is extremely complex for say the least and that's why ( till today ) there is no single tonearm ( any kind ) out there where we can say: this is a Universal tonearm.
What means a UNIVERSAL tonearm design?, well a dream come true tonearm design where any cartridge and I mean any cartridge ( MC/MM ) ALWAYS can show us its best quality performance like in no other vintage/current tonearm designs.
Well, this was/is our main target/goal when more than three years ago we start in our tonearm design.
A very ambitious target that when I think on it again makes me think we were really " crazy " trying to achieve an almost impossible target.
All the tonearms that I own and many more that come borrowed by my audio friends help us to test more than 100 cartridges ( MM/MC. The last two MC were the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme and the Koetsu Coral. ) that in different conditions and in those tests confirm that we achieve our main target: a UNIVERSAL tonearm, yes we did it the tonearm ( still with out name ) makes that any cartridge performs better by a wide margin against any other tonearm.
We almost finish our last prototype and right now I'm testing in deep the " infrastructure " that between other things makes this UNIVERSAL tonearm the most user-friendly tonearm ever: it comes with a unique VTA on the fly and with a unique arm lift mechanism, we cope with all the geometry and desirable mechanism/parameter/factor you can imagine on a tonearm design, yes is a pivoted one, 250mm on effective length, its main build material is a propietary/patent blend material, self mounting, etc, etc.
Yes Syntax this is the newest tonearm where I'm playing and ejoying like in no other time each cartridge that I mount on it.
I have no words ( new words ) to describe its NEUTRAL quality performance, IMHO no one of you can even imagine how a cartridge performs in our tonearm design ( this is a totally new experience that we really can't imagine before we made the very first test!!!!! ): even we are a little on " surprise " about its performance.
Through the design time I have a lot of new experiences for example: if you read in the MM long thread I posted in the thread ( right in the thread ) that the AT-20SS cartridge was a very difficult cartridge to mate with a tonearm and find the right set-up well three weeks ago I mounted for the first time in our tonearm prototype and guess what?: immediately works and performs like ever in a simple way and with out " fighting " with the set-up.
Other example: with cartridges that due to its characteristics put the resonance frequency below 8Hz and over 12Hz the quality performance were just splendid like if that resonance ( out of target ) figure was of no importance at all!!!
We don't know yet the precise date for the tonearm goes to the " light but I think this could be in other two-three months maybe a little longer.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Detornarm: +++++ " We'll see. " +++++
this was the only wise/mature statement that you made in your post in reference to our UNIVESAL tonearm design.
+++++ " I will address those points all the "others" haven't even thought about before. " +++++
I don't know of other tonearm designers but we know that we address all those points """ that others even thought before """. No you are not the only one, there are a lot of people that are good enough on what they do and even that are better than you, of course we are not the ones that are over you.
+++++ " That tonearm will not work with ALL cartridges, but it will work with the 20-30 best. " +++++
well our design will work with those 20-30 best ( even if that 20-30 best already have your design. ) and with any other cartridge out there but the FR series 7.
+++++ " It will not work and can't be mounted on all TT's - but it will work and can be mounted on the best. " +++++
well our UNIVESAL tonearm will work on that only the " best TT's " and in any other not " best " TT.
+++++ " A tonearm - even with adjustable moving mass and interchangeable armwands - can never suit all cartridges. " +++++
ony because you don't know/imagine how to do it does not means can't do it because in our design we already do it, could you imagine????
+++++ " while I am in my TT project I will demonstrate my concept about a pivot tonearm too. " ++++++
fortunatelly I don't have the necessity to demonstrate anything to justified my .......????? like you.
and like you say: we will see.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Axel/Perrew: IMHO always better alternatives ( no only different but better ones in quality performance. ) must be welcome in our audio world.
We customers/audiophile deserve better quality performance level ( even if we don't ask for it. ) audio items.
Better audio items means ( between other things ) better quality sound/music reproduction that we can enjoy it through our audio systems.
Better new audio products means too that we can have not only one " better " product but several " better " alternatives due to a " better " competition designs.
Better means that we are growing-up/walking through a better audio experiences and all these is just exciting for say the least.
egards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " And don't worry. " +++++
certainy not, fortunatelly I don't have your attitude: " I don't have audio questions " that put a lot of frustration when you are against a " new " audio topic and you are ignorant on that topic but don't ask because you already know everything but that topic so your " culture " is full of " holes " because you don't ask.
I'm different, I always try to sealed any audio " hole " that I have in my audio culture/audio learning curve.
Your audio life most be a boring one because you can't learn anything because you think you know everythng, well things happen that you don't know and even can't imagine how to achieve a NEUTRAL and UNIVERSAL tonarm, at least not ours.
I understand your deep frustration. Your close mind one way around goes against you and against your sane judge capacity. I'm dogmatic in some ways but at least in positive way and helping to others subjects.
The exciting ( for me ) and emotive factors in the audio world and in specific in the analog area is that there are several aspects on the main analog overall targets for " discover " and learn how to achieve it, I like this exciting " everyday learning " exercise, this put to my audio life a " motive " to go/run/design/build/modified, I don't envy your boring audio life: " I know everything ".
But, at least, on our NEUTRAL and UNIVERSAL tonearm here and today you are ignorant and in this regard we know something that you and your " scientists " don't even imagine, frustrating eh?
Daniel I like to try to be better everyday, maybe one day in the long feature I will stop but certainly not because I learn everything like you.
Btw, that road to rome ( the same straight line. ) you can cross it driving a cycle, driving a Ferrari or just walking, your call!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Axel: Seriously, yo make my day!!!! I'm laughin like a child, thak's for that.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Axel: I read your post again and I can't stop laughin!!!!
Good.
R. |
Dear Ralph: Thank you for your suggestion, I agree.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Perrew: +++++ " Any idea on the pricing... " +++++
Like in the Essential 3160 phonolinepreamp in this tonearm design we work with one and only one target: to achieve a top quality performance in every single part ( and overall ) of the item design with out any worry about price but only quality performance.
Till today ( that we are not totally finished the tonearm. I'm still making tests . ) we don't have the price not even something " around ".
We want to share this tonearm " new step " quality performance to the biggest people around. We are not audio " business " persons that mainly depend on audio money.
We ( Guillermo, José and I. ) made/make what we made/make because we like it, because we need to be/have better audio items that can help to improve the enjoyment of the pleasure to hear music in our each home, because we all share the same passion for the music and " perfection ". If through the time our designed/builded audio items could convert in an audio commercial bussiness then welcome but this is not our main target.
We already have on paper two other items: a TT and an amplifier, but these units will take a long time to see the " light ", maybe the shorter one could be a cartridge ( that we have on paper too ) that we don't have to build but only design it, we will see.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: Not really, we are two design teams: José and I for some design items and Guillermo and I for other audio devices.
Well you are your own marketing/advertiser manager at least with the FR tonearms that is your main target and commercial bussiness through Agon.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: Well there is no doubt that you " fight " and promote in ( just from your very first ever Agon post, ) almost any single Agon thread that FR tonearms trying ( at least ) that its price does not go down against your commercial bussiness and like you say almost everyone knows that: " even me ", of course that through your posts you are trying that the price goes up.
I'm not against your commercial bussiness due that the Agon " moderators " are the only ones that decide about but don't try ( like always ) to distract the attention to a different " road " that your main target: to sale those FR tonearms, making use of the people non know-how.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Btw, I forgot to tell you that in our ( till today ) two audio design teams we believe that one " route " to follow to improve " things " or to achieve the targets can do it through join/put togeter different target related talents.
Guess what?, it is working with a marvelous/great audio products and this is something that give us a real satisfaction because we are reaching almost all our audio targets, nothing more nothing less.
I understand that you can't live with our modest "sucess " but our targets are different from yours.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Daniel: +++++ " by the way Raul.... how about Syntax's question some posts back whether you can give some input on modern tonearms.... "
do you think that we start our self tonearm design because we are satisfied with the vintage and today tonearms?, please grow-up the answers are in front of you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: I own several cartridges and tonearms ( vintage and today ones. ) not because I'm a collector but because is a learning subject where I need different tonearms and different cartridges too, I use it for enjoy the music and I use it like tools in some of my audio projects.
+++++ " I do not think that any toenarm designer starts the project on designing a new contender for the state of the art because he is "not satisfied" with the current available. " +++++
What you think on the subject has no relevance. I start the tonearm design project because what I already posted, I don't start the tonearm project for " a new contender " but to achieve our targets that can't be reached/fullfill with what are on the market.
+++++ " we're only in it for the money. " +++++
fortunately not all of us are like you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear T bone: The best we can do in a forum like the Agon one is try to learn ( while are there. Over the time, if no one " use/post " on it, the threads disappear/delete in automatic. ) and make a personal archive of what is interesting for each one of us and in the mid-time try to have fun as you can get.
The opinion differences are what make a forum comes " alive " and learning one. In the analog audio world that is full of imperfections/errors/mistakes there is no absolute rules as there is no absolute opinions only relative/flavored ones due to those audio imperfections and different each one experiences: there is no " Bible " .
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
