The equipment in my system (listed below) has not changed but I now find on both CD and Vinyl a high end shrillness to the sound (treble is very harsh) that has become very annoying, especially at high volume levels. I have no idea why this happened all of a sudden.
Endevour E-3 Pass 30.8 Pass XP 20 Esoteric K01x Linn LP12 (Ortofon Black cartridge) Linn Linto Phono Preamp PS Audio P5 (Amp plugged in directly to wall) JL Audio F112 v2 sub OCOS Speaker cable (15 feet) Pass XLR interconnect (Preamp to Amp) Harmonic Technology Cable Magic Link (not current version). RCA termination
As an overdue update, I was able to slightly mitigate the harshness by replacing the stock power cord that came with my PS Audio P5 with a PS Audio AC12.
@proacman , Did Johnny have any idea of what may be the problem? He sure knows his stuff. And, I hope you come over to the V side. BTW- why are you Proacman if you own Von Schweikert? Bob
Here is the latest update. I ordered treatment for the side walls and will report back. But wanting to make sure it was not my hearing I visited a nearby audio dealer (Audio Connection) with the same music in hand that sounds so shrill at home. And guess what, it sounds fine in their system. By the way, I listed to the Proac 48r, which I did not like, and the Vandersteen Quatro CT, which I liked so much I may buy them if I can sell my current speakers.
I added two lights with in-line dimmers to a distant 20 amp outlet that also powers my system. With the lamp dimmers on, it significantly raised a multi-amplifiers operating temperature and added a soft grain in the separately powered mids and tweeters. It disappeared when I turned off the dimmers or unplugged the lights.
At the risk of repeating myself, this appears to be very much a circuit focused group. It seems my earlier post intimating the problem of the “shrill top end” could be *something else entirely,” something out of the blue, was taken down hard. You know, the suggestion that the culprit could be unrelated to the audio system entirely, I.e., not (rpt not) the amplifier, preamplifier, cables, power cord, room acoustics, or even the house AC. It doesn’t have to be the amp or the preamp. And I am not referring to any of the issues in Vogue such as fuses, wire directionality, polarity, out of phase conditions, things of that nature. But something a little bit scarier. I’ll be watching with some interest to see how this thread plays out. 😀
+1 Jim (Jea48). Although it may seem improbable, I would not by any means rule out the possibility that BOTH amps have succumbed to the very high capacitance of the speaker cables.
Also, I would add the following to the quotes you provided, this one coming from a respected designer of highly regarded audio electronics and speakers:
Pbnaudio 12-1-2017 My gut reaction to this is the very long, highly capacitive speaker wires are at least contributing to this. As someone stated above - try lamp cord.
Latest update. Changing the amp made no difference. So all I have left is the speaker wire, the power, the room or my ears. Since the speaker wire shouldn't change nor should the room I am wondering if it is my ears. Next step is to visit a local audio store (if I can find one). Then talking to my electrician about a separate power line,. Will keep you posted.
I'm sure someone has already discussed this possibility, but on two different occasions when your problem arose in my system it was as big a mystery to me as it is to you. I was able to eliminate the problem by addressing the dressing issue and insuring that IC's and PC's were not running parallel nor were they passing close to transformers. Since I did a tear down and reassembly I'm not sure where the villainous wire(s) were but the problem did arise after I had been fiddling in the back of the equipment reconnecting/relocating equipment. FWIW.
About a year ago I was experiencing system symptoms virtually identical to those the OP has described. At some point after much thought, frustration and experimentation, I replaced my speaker cables and the harshness disappeared.
30 feet of Monster Cable or 12 gauge TW cable from the hardware store will be an easy and inexpensive experiment. Hope this helps.
I too think it must be the amp but this test will tell for sure.
Hopefully Kosst will take my response to this in the constructive spirit in which it is offered: If the problem goes away when the amp is changed, while it would substantially increase the likelihood that the Pass amp is the culprit, it would not by any means be a conclusive indication. It could simply be that the other amp is less sensitive to the effects of a speaker cable having very high capacitance.
Also, can you answer a couple of questions I had raised earlier:
1)What is the full model name of the Ortofon Black cartridge?
2)Do the OCOS cables have a "red" termination network, a "black" termination network, or neither.
Thanks for all the great suggestions. I turned off all lights in the house and it made no change. For the HOI I changed the power cord from a PS Audio AC5 to the stock cord that came with the amp and although it had no effect on the upper registers it seemed to focus the sound stage more. I guess this is left for another discussion.
I wanted to switch amps but the 5 channel unit I use for the surround sound room is much too heavy for me to easily move. Hopefully I can get a friend to help me and will report back afterwards. I too think it must be the amp but this test will tell for sure.
OP last commented saying he was going to swap the amp this weekend and if not that then look at ac. This weekend could well be late tonight, we do not know his work schedule. However if not the amp, I certainly hope he does not jump straight to ac possibilities without at least swapping speaker cables no matter how unlikely that scenario may be. Its cheap, quick and easy. I am thinking the amp swap will reveal plenty but we just have to wait for now.
like @jea48 I am waiting to hear if taking the P5 out of the system helped, although his description of the problem didn't seem like noise to me. Haven't heard from the OP in 5 days....
SPEAKERS ! After trying another amp and/or cables I'd try another set of speakers that a friend can bring over. The tweets may've gotten damaged somehow - if that's the case there's nothing you can do to get sweet music back. Find out.
Regarding the exchange Jim (Jea48) and I had a few posts back about the "Ortofon Black" cartridge listed in the OP, and the possibility of trying the phono stage connected directly to the power amp:
In addition to the high output 2M Black moving magnet cartridge, which as I indicated would be unsuitable for use with the non-adjustable loading of the Linto phono stage, Ortofon has two low output moving coil models having the word "Black" in their name. Those are the Cadenza Black and the Quintet Black (or Quintet Black S). Both have rated outputs under the standard test conditions of about 0.3 mv.
I assume the OP’s cartridge is one of those two models, and if so I assume he is using the high gain (64 db) setting of the phono stage. 64 db would boost 0.3 mv to about 0.48 volts, which is about 2/3 of the voltage that would drive the amp to full power. So while performing an experiment with the preamp removed from the signal path is probably within reason, especially if a recording known to have low volume is used, and if care is taken to avoid a large transient when the stylus makes contact with the record, personally I would still feel somewhat uncomfortable about doing that.
Reducing the gain of this phono stage to its low gain (54 db) setting, btw, apparently involves cutting a wire internally, so that wouldn’t seem to be a good way of performing the experiment.
@whitestix You could not actually be any further from the truth my friend....lol. I am married so used to being insulted by a professional on a hourly basis! I just do not wish to see these forums degenerate any further Everybody is entitled to their own opinions of course
@geoffkait yet another productive post I see, thank you so much for that.
And yes agreed, we need to lighten up for sure
But I digress, lets leave this idle banter behind and keep on the subject, no further off topic posts from myself...tonight.....
I see where you are coming from, but take these posts with a grain of salt. Kosst responded emphatically to some nonsensical suggestions, but his RX as usual was cogent. Your narrow sense of what constitutes decency and civility suggests that you might be one of those with the thin skin that I was thinking of. Lighten up, my friend.
Its not really about awful thin skin. Its about common courtesy and civility. In this instance Kosst could well be right for sure but there are ways and then there are WAYS of getting your point of view across.
These forums are based on freedom of speech and opinion bearing in mind the constraints of decency and civility. Once a member puts forth a view that differs from yours you do NOT spit your dummy out and go on a verbal rampage! That is the stuff of Farcebook and has no place here at all.
Here's hoping the OP enlightens us on some findings.
I tell ya, there are some folks on these threads with awfully thin skin. If this was a sudden phenomenon, then Kosst mostly likely has it right. Swap the amp and the preamp and see if the problem goes away.
You seem to have some relevant advice to give the OP, and that's great, but please refrain from the insulting manner, in which you address others, based on your disagreement with them. This is supposed to be a civil environment.
Does anyone else use your equipment? I've heard (and seen) situations in which the owner's children have shown off the system to their friends...sometimes with dyer consequences (causing a tweeter to be blown back out of it's magnetic field, etc). Just curious as it seems almost everything else has been accounted for. Otherwise...any utility work performed in the area of your home? Best of luck!.
Your welcome, Jim. Looking further at the Linto specs, though, based on the specified input loading of "150 Ohms in parallel with 4.7nF " (i.e., 4700 pf) it would seem clear that the 2M Black (which is a moving magnet design) is not the cartridge that is being used, and presumably what is being used is an LOMC. So let’s wait for further word from the OP on that.
Jea48 12-2-2017
What are the chances the OP could connect the
Linn Linto Phono Preamp
directly to the inputs of the Pass amp without it playing too loud for a test. That would take the
Pass XP 20
out of the equation.
Hi Jim,
In this case that's probably not a good idea, assuming that the "Ortofon Black" cartridge referred to in the OP is the 2M Black. That cartridge has a rated output under the standard test conditions of 5 mv. The low gain (54 db) setting of the phono stage would boost 5 mv to 2.5 volts, which is more than three times greater than the input voltage that would drive the XA30.8 to full power.
Also, I see that the remote control provided with his Esoteric K01X SACD player provides volume control buttons, but although I could be wrong I suspect it is provided for purposes of adjusting the volume on their integrated amplifiers or other components, not on this player.
Kosst, my hypothesis is not predicated on the cables having changed in any way whatsoever. If it wasn’t clear, when I referred to the condition being "sufficiently marginal that minor aging effects or perhaps even a change in AC line voltage have put it over the edge," resulting in ringing or oscillation, I was referring to minor aging effects in the amplifier. Which in turn might have made the amplifier more prone to ringing or oscillation as a result of the heavy capacitive load.
Admittedly, though, the fact that both channels are exhibiting the problem does **somewhat** lessen the likelihood of my hypothesis accounting for the problem.
Also, Peter (Pbnaudio), thanks for your comment. As many here are aware, Peter is a highly experienced designer of well regarded audio electronics and speakers.
There is a possibility of a blown fuse inside the amp? My BAT has 2 fuses per rail and has an annoying propensity for blowing the front fuse on the lh channel rail. When this happens I can measure over 5vdc at the output terminals. No I do not know why it does this, neither does bat. Could be a possibility that would preclude and expensive trip to a dealer.
Excessive DC on the amplifiers output can easily be checked even without a multi meter, just turn on amplifier while observing the woofer cone if it moves out and does not return to neutral position after the initial turn on bump - the amplifier have excessive DC on the output. It of course can move in also in case the DC voltage is negative.
Opening up the amplifier and checking rail voltages and Bias current is on a whole other level, and best left to someone whom knows what they are doing.
My gut reaction to this is the very long, highly capacitive speaker wires are at least contributing to this. As someone stated above - try lamp cord.
Kosst, thanks for the clarification about the multimeter measurements.
I also want to thank Jwpstayman for his very informative post about the OCOS cables. For one thing, it further reinforces suspicion that they have ultra-high capacitance. (I believe that when he referred to a "nobel network" he probably meant to say "Zobel network," which is something that is commonly used with ultra-high capacitance cables such as Goertz to minimize the capacitive nature of the cables as seen by the amp, that might otherwise cause ringing, oscillations, or even damage).
So based on his post a question for the OP would be if his OCOS cables have a "red" termination network, a "black" termination network, or neither.
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