While the Dreadnaught D amplifier will sound wonderful without any burn-in time, users "MAY" experience small sonic improvements during the first week or so of operation.
"MAY" this is a get out of jail card. Otherwise they would have used the word "WILL" It also infers "Expectation Bias" The unit is put on a burn-in torture rack to test for any possible component failures This test is for weak/faulty components under heat stress, not to "burn in" for better sound. Cheers George |
rsv4, one lie is too many and there are many. some lies will and some won't be remembered and that's where the trick is. |
"
a lie told many times becomes truth. V Lenin.
" Not always. After 65+ years of Leningrad, the Russians still remembered the name of their city was St. Petersburg. |
This to break-in or not break-in question pops up regularly regardless of the "object" in question; internal combustion engines, tires, etc. And there are always folks who argue against or for it. While there's some truth in the notion of the "expectation bias", there's no denial that physical (or chemical) properties of most electronic components changes as a result of going through constant temperature cycling. Some get better some get worse, depending on the piece in question. There is one fact that remains common - the longer a component is left on, the lesser it will last. |
Again, I'm not sure where you are getting this info from. "
And your talking 600hrs for each change in the prototype. Any further changes made to the unit under development, gets broken in before the changes are evaluated."
600 hours? Where did I say that? I've never had an ARC product take that long to break in. "
From this, as it infers that it’s in prototype stage. When a product is
finalized there are no changes to be made once in production, as it’s
all sorted.
" You're stating the obvious. Besides, I already addressed that in my last post. The last prototype is the production model. Since you want to go back to my "where did you get this info from" question, you're conveniently leaving out the portion of my post that's most relavent to the question. "
And the way your inferring is that the production ones are deliberately
out of adjustment/calibration to factor in "break-in" period, which
after those adjustment/calibrations are magically back in spec?? I think
not.
" Show me where you got that from. "
To all those that say the manufacture has specified a certain "break-in"
period, please link the rest of us to those manufacturers links,
instead of it being just personal opinion.
" I just noticed that. Ayre
Due to the manufacturing processes used for the wires, capacitors, and circuit board materials, a break-in period is necessary for the amplifier to reach its full sonic potential.
100 to 500 hours of music played through the system will ensure full break-in.
Theta
Getting to know your Dreadnaught D This Dreadnaught D has been put through a rigorous and unique testing procedure that ensures that it will last for many years with minimal service requirements. This procedure includes the following: •All assembled circuit boards are given a thorough visual inspection and are then tested in a bench-reference Dreadnaught D. •The tested, assembled circuit boards are then installed in a new Dreadnaught D and the whole unit is tested for every function and parameter. •The unit is put on a burn-in torture rack to test for any possible component failures. •It is then tested on an audio analyzer for all pertinent parameters. •The unit has all remaining chassis components installed and then undergoes a complete visual inspection, which assures that all Dreadnaught D’s meet visual specifications. •The Dreadnaught D then undergoes a critical listening and functional test. Burn-In Time While the Dreadnaught D amplifier will sound wonderful without any burn-in time, users may experience small sonic improvements during the first week or so of operation.
Burn-In/Break-In Time This unit has a break in period of about 1 week during which continuous improvement in sound quality will be observed. It is recommended that music be played continuously through the unit during this time to expedite the break in period.
Aesthetix
BURN IN TIME This unit has a break in period of about 1 month during which continuous improvement in sound quality will be observed.
There's 3 examples. If you want more just read an owners manual. Also, when you read through the Theta example, the break in requirements are different for Class D amp than traditional AB. |
How could you possibly get that from reading my post?
From this, as it infers that it’s in prototype stage. When a product is finalized there are no changes to be made once in production, as it’s all sorted. When a designer is building a new product and makes changes, the component gets broken in before they listen to it. And your talking 600hrs for each change in the prototype. Any further changes made to the unit under development, gets broken in before the changes are evaluated. Cheers George |
"
I’m not talking prototypes, it’s production ones I’m referring to.
And
the way your inferring is that the production ones are deliberately out
of adjustment/calibration to factor in "break-in" period, which after
those adjustment/calibrations are magically back in spec?? I think not.
"
How could you possibly get that from reading my post?
You have to have prototypes in order to get to production. Here's how it works. A designer puts together a prototype. Before he listens to it, he breaks it in first. Any further changes made to the unit under development, gets broken in before the changes are evaluated. The last prototype is the production model. Through every process of development, the unit gets broken in before listening to it. That includes the final production model. For example, if the manufacturer claims 500 hours for break in, that's the standard. So, when they sell an amp to a customer, the customer need to put 500 hours break in time on it. After that, the customer and the manufacturer have an amp that sounds exactly the same.
Also, I never inferred that production units are deliberately out of adjustment/calibration. What's to adjust? Break in is a passive process. I just don't see what's so complicated about all this. If you don't believe in break in, fine. Its an issue that will take care of itself over time regardless of belief.
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It not only claimed 500 hours for the DAC, but per input as well. Sounds like Ralph’s "expectation bias" to me. By that time not only would a trial period be over but the warranty as well with some. Still not advertised and written on a web page link by the manufacturer. Just like the mains fuses that are "said" to have to be "broken in" and also to be 'directional" by manufacturers, yet try to find any of that advertised on a site by them. Cheers George |
@georgelofi
Yes, it was on a red warning sticker on the outside of the DAC 8. Well, not a sticker so much as a big red sheet taped to the outside. Clearly they intended buyers to see it before making up their minds.
That DAC is long gone, and I had purchased a floor model from the local dealer, so I can't tell you if I thought that was real or not.
It not only claimed 500 hours for the DAC, but per input as well.
Best,
E
|
When a designer is building a new product and makes changes, the component gets broken in before they listen to it. I’m not talking prototypes, it’s production ones I’m referring to. And the way your inferring is that the production ones are deliberately out of adjustment/calibration to factor in "break-in" period, which after those adjustment/calibrations are magically back in spec?? I think not. To all those that say the manufacture has specified a certain "break-in" period, please link the rest of us to those manufacturers links, instead of it being just personal opinion. Cheers George |
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200 hrs will be a starting point for improved sound. By 400-500 hrs of listening time, one will hear where the time went in regards to continued sound improvement. Teflon takes at least 600 hrs, more like upwards of 1000 hrs, to acheive optimum sound. Sit back, relax and enjoy the journey.
Oh yeah, enjoy the Music as well.
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I’ve had ARC gear that claimed a 500 hour break in with nothing fancier than Wima polypropylene caps. ARC claimed this themselves in writing? Or are they saying owners report this. I’d love to see where that’s written if they claim this. If they did, they maybe playing on the "expectation bias" of customers so aptly named by Ralph (Atmasphere). Cheers George |
BTW, having a "long" break-in time isn't necessarily indicative of Teflon caps. I've had ARC gear that claimed a 500 hour break in with nothing fancier than Wima polypropylene caps.
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I’ll add transformers to my above post...
tho I have seen reviewers say the teflon caps.
The real question is what ARC says...
Anyway just leave the system on with a CD on repeat or something while you run errands, etc.
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Most of my experience with break-in (as opposed to warm-up) is with speaker crossovers, and caps. Replacing a cap takes at least 24-72 hours for them to settle in and give you a "final" version of the sound.
I wish I understood the physics. :) I understand one hypothesis that is often stated as likely is placebo. I understand why it’s such a possible and easy answer but to me it’s not enough.
Like other things in Audio, it remains an area not fully explored. I hope someday there will be results that better explain what we perceive.
Best,
E
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a lie told many times becomes truth. V Lenin. |
I've never heard anyone say that their component sounded worse after break in. If break in is a real phenomenon, then statistically how is that possible? Unless it explains why we constantly 'upgrade' to new gear. What if gear only sounded good for 1-200 hours, and then it was all downhill from there. Obviously, over very long periods of time component parts degrade and do need replacement. But I would not call that part of "break in." |
"Let’s play with the "burn in" crews heads.
If you think about it, all the optimum adjustments are made at the factory after the amps been on for a while, maybe an hr if your lucky.
If thing change after 600hrs then those optimum factory adjustments have just gone out the window and need to be redone again.
So it’s either out of adjustment because of aging, and therefore not optimum, or the factory needs to have them on for 600hrs before they are adjusted and sent out to the shops.
Either way if things change they would be out of the original optimum adjustment.
Cheers George"
I understand what you're trying to say here, but that's really not how it works. When a designer is building a new product and makes changes, the component gets broken in before they listen to it. For about 20 years now, I've been evaluating prototype's during the design phase for several manufacturers. I break in every piece of equipment they send me. Sometimes I'll see the same component 10-15 times as changes are made. That means I break it in 10-15 times.
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the only breakin time I worry about is with new speakers
I do think ARC tells you to warm their components up a bit for best sound, but it won't kill you to listen to an ARC pre-amp that isn't all the way warmed up
at least, it won't kill you right away |
My .02$, elements within tubes do change with use. Frequently this is perceived as a diminution of harsh, hard, bright and othee unpleasant qualities. It shouldn't take a billion hours to get rid of this, sometimes only 60 hours, but more is typical oh let me say on average, oh just guessing, for a typical set up maybe, output tubes about 120, but please this is obviously highly highly variable. Don't come back at me telling me this amp takes waaay more time or whatever. If your experience is different I would not be surprised.
Two things. 1 tubes continue to change to some extent throughout their use, but usually reach a level sound.
2. AND in ARC gear this can be very important. You don't hear the tubes in certain circuits. I had an ARC pre and I rolled 12AX7s in it couldn't hear any changes, tried a bunch of 5751s, same effect.
As for caps, That I don't know and of course the circuitry itself ages. |
perhaps whoever recommends 600 hours break-in to any component except i guess car or boat, definitely doin' some substance abuse...
it might be either mushrooms or lsd. |
"So, is it the tubes, the caps, or the listener?" I would say an equal part of all three. |
Studies by cognitive psychologists show that sensory experience alters perception.
So, is it the tubes, the caps, or the listener? |
It took well over 300+ hours for my REGA Isis valve cdp and REGA Osiris integrated amp to settle in .... the actual burn-in process was longer but less pronounced farther out on the time vs performance curve. At 300plus hours, that timeline point was something of a common threshold that apparently is not unusual for many different brands. |
It's generally put down to the time needed to break in the Teflon caps.
I've had a Ref 2 phono SE for four years now and still only up to 391 hours ... and I'm not sure I can tell you if it's changing as over this long a timeframe lots of other things change as well. Put it this way if you don't like the sound of it at 200 hours (or for that matter at 20) it's not going to sound that different at 600 |
They use tubes.
As to how long why not contact ARC?
BTW, they listen to every unit before it leaves the factory - and I think a single person still does all the final listening - yet another guy named Wendell from a high end audio co. in Minnesota - what's in the water over there?? |
Sound will open up and become more dynamic also bass definition will improve. Good luck. |
Basically to make you think about it for full 600 hours till you realize... |
"
what improvements can I expect to hear as the unit accrues hours? "
just sit back and listen for the changes yourself. If members tell you what to expect then it takes all the fun out of listening to something new . |
Let’s play with the "burn in" crews heads.
If you think about it, all the optimum adjustments are made at the factory after the amps been on for a while, maybe an hr if your lucky.
If thing change after 600hrs then those optimum factory adjustments have just gone out the window and need to be redone again.
So it’s either out of adjustment because of aging, and therefore not optimum, or the factory needs to have them on for 600hrs before they are adjusted and sent out to the shops.
Either way if things change they would be out of the original optimum adjustment.
Cheers George |
