Why does it take so many hours to brea in arc preamps and amps?

"Let’s play with the "burn in" crews heads.

If you think about it, all the optimum adjustments are made at the factory after the amps been on for a while, maybe an hr if your lucky.
If thing change after 600hrs then those optimum factory adjustments have just gone out the window and need to be redone again.

So it’s either out of adjustment because of aging, and therefore not optimum, or the factory needs to have them on for 600hrs before they are adjusted and sent out to the shops.
Either way if things change they would be out of the original optimum adjustment.

Cheers George"

I understand what you're trying to say here, but that's really not how it works. When a designer is building a new product and makes changes, the component gets broken in before they listen to it. For about 20 years now, I've been evaluating prototype's during the design phase for several manufacturers. I break in every piece of equipment they send me. Sometimes I'll see the same component 10-15 times as changes are made. That means I break it in 10-15 times.   

" I’m not talking prototypes, it’s production ones I’m referring to.
And the way your inferring is that the production ones are deliberately out of adjustment/calibration to factor in "break-in" period, which after those adjustment/calibrations are magically back in spec?? I think not. "

How could you possibly get that from reading my post?

You have to have prototypes in order to get to production. Here's how it works. A designer puts together a prototype. Before he listens to it, he breaks it in first. Any further changes made to the unit under development, gets broken in before the changes are evaluated. The last prototype is the production model. Through every process of development, the unit gets broken in before listening to it. That includes the final production model. For example, if the manufacturer claims 500 hours for break in, that's the standard. So, when they sell an amp to a customer, the customer need to put 500 hours break in time on it. After that, the customer and the manufacturer have an amp that sounds exactly the same.

Also, I never inferred that production units are deliberately out of adjustment/calibration. What's to adjust? Break in is a passive process. I just don't see what's so complicated about all this. If you don't believe in break in, fine. Its an issue that will take care of itself over time regardless of belief.

Again, I'm not sure where you are getting this info from.

" And your talking 600hrs for each change in the prototype.

Any further changes made to the unit under development, gets broken in before the changes are evaluated."

600 hours? Where did I say that? I've never had an ARC product take that long to break in.

" From this, as it infers that it’s in prototype stage. When a product is finalized there are no changes to be made once in production, as it’s all sorted. "

You're stating the obvious. Besides, I already addressed that in my last post. The last prototype is the production model.

Since you want to go back to my "where did you get this info from" question, you're conveniently leaving out the portion of my post that's most relavent to the question.

" And the way your inferring is that the production ones are deliberately out of adjustment/calibration to factor in "break-in" period, which after those adjustment/calibrations are magically back in spec?? I think not. "

Show me where you got that from.

" To all those that say the manufacture has specified a certain "break-in" period, please link the rest of us to those manufacturers links, instead of it being just personal opinion. "

I just noticed that.

Ayre

Due to the manufacturing processes used for the wires, capacitors, and circuit board materials, a break-in period is necessary for the amplifier to reach its full sonic potential. 100 to 500 hours of music played through the system will ensure full break-in.

Theta

Getting to know your Dreadnaught D This Dreadnaught D has been put through a rigorous and unique testing procedure that ensures that it will last for many years with minimal service requirements. This procedure includes the following: •All assembled circuit boards are given a thorough visual inspection and are then tested in a bench-reference Dreadnaught D. •The tested, assembled circuit boards are then installed in a new Dreadnaught D and the whole unit is tested for every function and parameter. •The unit is put on a burn-in torture rack to test for any possible component failures. •It is then tested on an audio analyzer for all pertinent parameters. •The unit has all remaining chassis components installed and then undergoes a complete visual inspection, which assures that all Dreadnaught D’s meet visual specifications. •The Dreadnaught D then undergoes a critical listening and functional test. Burn-In Time While the Dreadnaught D amplifier will sound wonderful without any burn-in time, users may experience small sonic improvements during the first week or so of operation.

Burn-In/Break-In Time This unit has a break in period of about 1 week during which continuous improvement in sound quality will be observed. It is recommended that music be played continuously through the unit during this time to expedite the break in period.

Aesthetix

BURN IN TIME This unit has a break in period of about 1 month during which continuous improvement in sound quality will be observed.

There's 3 examples. If you want more just read an owners manual. Also, when you read through the Theta example, the break in requirements are different for Class D amp than traditional AB.

"

a lie told many times becomes truth.

V Lenin. "

Not always. After 65+ years of Leningrad, the Russians still remembered the name of their city was St. Petersburg.

This is just getting stupid.

" To all those that say the manufacture has specified a certain "break-in" period, please link the rest of us to those manufacturers links, instead of it being just personal opinion.

Cheers George "

If you read the info I have you, it was a fairly broad selection of break in requirements. Some list hours, some months, different types of equipment, no break in..... What more do you want? You're making an argument just for the sake of making an argument. Lets continue.

" This test is for weak/faulty components under heat stress, not to "burn in" for better sound."

I know. Do you know how I know? Because that's exactly what they say in the quote.

" "MAY" this is a get out of jail card. Otherwise they would have used the word "WILL" It also infers "Expectation Bias"

The get out of jail card and expectation bias. Now you really got me backed into a corner. How do you explain this?

" Burn-In/Break-In Time This unit has a break in period of about 1 week during which continuous improvement in sound quality will be observed. It is recommended that music be played continuously through the unit during this time to expedite the break in period. "

That's also out of a Theta manual, but for a different amp. Now what? You can't say I tried to trick you (although I don't think that would be too difficult), because I gave you fair warning. Here it is again.

" There's 3 examples. If you want more just read an owners manual. Also, when you read through the Theta example, the break in requirements are different for Class D amp than traditional AB. "

Now its my turn.

" I trust some things Charlie Hansen say's, but sorry not this one Charlie. If this is so with this Ayre CDP, then it (break-in) needs to be done at the factory, after which all adjustments re-done before it's sent the customer. "

What adjustments are you specifically referring to? I have that CD player. There are no adjustments to be made after break in. Not only on that CD player, but every CD player ever made. A straight answer this time. No BS.

" But in electronics just a few of hours see new electrolytic caps that have sat on the shelf too long and such being "formed" if you know what that means to their best, if not they are leaky and need to be replaced. "

OK, so now you are making statements on break in. Show us where you're getting that info from, and why is that statement correct while the vast majority of the audio industry is wrong? I hate to be mean, but look at it from out viewpoint. You have no problem criticizing designers like C Hanson and his peers, but they're the ones making state of the art high end electronics, year after year, and they're following increases. All you do is talk. See the difference?

Does that mean these designers can do no wrong and are faultless? Of course not. But you've shown nothing to support your case other than a will to win the argument regardless of what's actually true. What makes it even more sad, is that I've read many of your posts in other threads, and more often than not, I would agree with you on whatever topics were being discussed. Now when I read your posts, the first thing that will come to mind is, "read it a few times and see what his angle is."

" Just Google "forming electrolytic capacitors" and be enlightened just a little.

Cheers George "

Once again, you have it completely backwards.

" But in electronics just a few of hours see new electrolytic caps that have sat on the shelf too long and such being "formed" (if you know what that means) to their best, if not they are leaky or too old and need to be replaced. "

Of course the caps need to be broken in, but your statement implies caps are the only things that need to be break in. Also, I find it odd that you only respond to some comments, and not others.

" I trust some things Charlie Hansen say's, but sorry not this one Charlie. If this is so with this Ayre CDP, then it (break-in) needs to be done at the factory, after which all adjustments re-done before it's sent the customer. "

" What adjustments are you specifically referring to? I have that CD player. There are no adjustments to be made after break in. Not only on that CD player, but every CD player ever made. A straight answer this time. No BS. "

Why can't you give me an answer on that? Your statement is very clear and direct. You should have no problem backing it up.

" To all those that say the manufacture has specified a certain "break-in" period, please link the rest of us to those manufacturers links, instead of it being just personal opinion."

If you refuse to answer some of the questions based on your comments, I think its safe to say its your personal opinion. I think its only fair that you hold yourself to the same standard you expect from others.