Don't worry about McIntosh, Spectral is sonically inferior, but no one wants to realize. Blue meters count :-) |
@Audiolabyrinth, bose and Mcintosh same sentence...really, been there done that....sure you have....and your in a new league now...really and because someone has more dough plowed into a system its better.....you will learn....one day. Just not into equipment slamming...put your system on virtual so I can learn. |
i think an underlying principle of all snobbery is that if something (whether it's audio, wine or movies) is very popular, it can't be very good. i also suspect that many have an innate bias against gear which emphasizes aesthetics and form--perhaps we feel that we're paying a super-premium for looks as opposed to performance. all that said, i think some of the above criticisms of the lower-end mac amps and integrateds is valid--i hear a bit of graininess. however, it's inarguable that their stuff is extremely well-built, looks great and is virtually unmatched in terms of collectibility and resale value. |
I've owned Mac equipment, darn stuff looks awesome IMHO. Wish I had kept my c220, glad I got rid of my MA6300. Have had a hard time finding one of their power amps I like listening to, sure hope I do though, love those blue eyes!! |
The description of selling Mac stuff to doctors and lawyers back in the day seems perfect...note again that with every manufacturer (of nearly anything) that's been around that long there's great stuff, and some not so great stuff, and so what? I dig their tube amps and they've received rave reviews recently, so I'm confidant the doctors and lawyers are hearing something sweet. |
I just saw their demo environment at the SHOW. Very little press post show, but I loved the new D100 pre-amp married to their classic 275 tube amp. They had small studio monitors ($4 grand). Really amazingly musical setup at about 12 grand. |
I have also been around audio all my life. I have owned and still do own many different systems , Audio research, krelll , Mark levinsons ,and I have several Mac amps and I love them . I think the reason why they get a lot of resentment from some so called audiophiles is because they don't cater to the snake oil nut jobs , and they are still successful . These so called audiophiles complained about their tone controls, auto transformers, speaker terminals , but Mac disregarded their nonsense and still is a formidable company . While I still do prefer my tube Audio research amps , i will never get rid of my reliable , fantastic sounding Mac amps |
@Audioquest4life well said my friend, I agree totally. My answer to OP is audiophiles, most of which have an OCD issue, will always bash something that they do not own themselves or can't understand....it fuels their own insecurity of obsessiveness which leads back just like a circle to the OCD issue.
Then of course there are opinions and honest feedback, which is good and help many, that can tactfully be articulated since everyone likes what they like and that is why there are so many avenues with this hobby. Those are the ones that have helped me over the years. Cheers! |
05-16-13: Liquid-smooth
I do own Mc and I still feel that there are better options out there for the money these days...
I saw one of your recent threads, and you seem to think Adcom is one of those better choices. That's funny. |
Rpeluso,
Way back when, Schubert lost to Sinatra on the Major Bowes Amateur Hour and has had an axe to grind ever since. HA |
Etbaby has made a very good point about Mcintosh gear, which I have found to be true myself, that sound quality varies from one unit to the next. This could explain the vast differences of opinions about Mac.
Overall I think McIntosh gear is cool looking, well built, and produces a unique house sound that is very good. It would be tough to walk-away from McIntosh without a smile on your face. |
I only owned one Mc preamp, a C15. It wasn't bad but it wasn't as good as the PS Audio 6.0 preamp it replaced and was no where as good as the McCormack RLD 1 that replaced it.... |
Not sure either. I have been into audio for about 35 years and have had the opportunity to own many pieces of audio equipment. When I was younger I could only afford entry level equipment and over the years appreciated the sound from each device I owned. Never heard of Mac gear until I was much older. I have owned Bryston, Krell, Soundcraftsman, and Octave amps over the last 10 years and now Mac 2301's , which are really excellent sounding to my ears. How long I own these are questionable, however, I think these will be here in use longer than the 6 years I had the Octave amps in use.
I can care less about equipment or automobile bashing, there are haters and lovers of pretty much anything. I race Corvettes and I have to tell you the riivalry between Porsche and Corvette is great, however, drivers of each car respect each other for their driving qualitiies and the performance at the track. When my non-audiophile friends listen to my system, they are simply amazed by the high resolution of the system. So, the Mac sounds great to me and my friends and wife. Does one really need an endorsement from a bunch of old huffy and puffy audio geezers to own any piece of audio equipment? Do you really care about what others think about your buying decisions? Everyone has their own opinions and audio forums have many opiniated users. Obviously really bad sounding equipment with poor build quality will truly stand out among other pieces of audio equipment.
Have a great day and enjoy life!
Audioquest4life |
Schubert-What is your issue with Sinatra? |
Sid42, Sentence #3 of your post...............right on! |
Sorry. I'm not willing to start buying and selling without researching all brands of integrated amplifiers. Is McItosh worthy of an audition? Well sure it is. At least with my speakers. They all are within reason. |
Guys and gals, I'm not worried about why or why not someone likes Mac gear. I don't own any. I assure you that wasn't the point of my post. If I worried of such things could you imagine how the rest of my life would be? I'd probably have died from stress by now. I'm just curious what the audio community has to say about it.
I'm currently thinking about upgrading my Rogue Cronus Magnum to a SS integrated. The way I am, this could take years. I need to cover my bases and I'd be a fool to rule out McIntosh completely. I'm not willing to start buying and selling without |
For me, although Mc sounds good, it's not as liquid and transparent as Krell for example. |
I do own Mc and I still feel that there are better options out there for the money these days... |
Hi Roxy54,
To answer your question:
I used to sell a ton of equipment for a friend who owned a audio salon back in the '70's & '80's.
Most of the doctors & lawyers that I dealt with would choose McIntosh equipment (amp/s, pre & tuner) either a Thorens or a Garrard TT, a Tandberg cass or RTR & B&W speakers.
I would get them package quotes, deliver & install @ their homes & then explain in detail how everything worked (usually for 2 hours or so).
Then I would go home & wait for the phone to ring.
Hi Richard - This is Dr. so & so - My wife just came home & I wanted to show her our new stereo system - CAN YOU TELL ME HOW TO TURN IT ON?
FWIW - I made a small fortune back then on the percentage I would receive on discount, the sales tax, delivery & installation.
So to sum it up:
I have heard many McIntosh systems in my lifetime & they really do sound pretty good, but not as good as 95% of the systems that I have had or put together in the past 50 years.
In retrospect:
I think that back then McIntosh was a rich kids toy & highly advertized, so the rich kids that read New Yorker, The New York Times & The Wall Street Journal thought that McIntosh was the best & went for it as only they could afford it - usually sight unseen.
As I stated in my first post: This IS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION & I did not mean to offend anyone! |
It's interesting to note that those doing most of the "bashing" on Mac gear have never owned it, which disqualifies them from even making a judgment. All brands have their followers and haters of their products. Once you understand that NO brand of gear is going to replicate the real thing, then it's time to start listening to products that make the listening experience pleasurable to YOU. Some of the "reference gear", while being state of the art, may not be your cup of tea.
Personally, I like their gear for the most part, and I do own it. I will agree with some who have stated their cd player's reliability problems, and can speak to that too. I won't own another cd or universal player from them, as they never get the bugs worked out right. But their preamps and amps do really well, especially the newer ones. I've had other products whose sound always had me on edge, and I never listened to them for very long. But the so-called Mac sound is pleasing to my ears and I always have a pleasurable time in listening nowadays. And looking at the gear in a darkened room, well, I like that too.
Whatever Mac is doing, it must be pretty good, and their sales will attest to that. Some have commented on the fact that they have been owned by several offshore companies since Frank and Gordon passed on, but some have really helped Mac in providing needed funds to provide a better product. Being able to get advanced equipment in cutting the glass faceplates with water-cutting lasers has been one big improvement. I do think they are trying to be a "something for everyone" company lately, but all-in-all, they will be around when most other companies are just a memory of the past. |
I think they are over priced for what they do, although they do sound good. I prefer Krell, and Teac AI-1000 (2000,3000) int. amp.
Who thought Teac would make such a good sounding gears, but hear them for your self - I heard them yesterday, and was blown away at the cost per quality ratio.
Anyone looking for an int. amp for under 1k might want to have a listen. The sales man said they have parts found in much more expensive gears.
They look classy as well.
|
I remember seeing the Mac TT at an open house that prominently featured Mac gear. When I asked to hear it, I was told it wasn't hooked up!!?? Talk about yr wtf moments! |
I think I heard a new Mc integrated amp recently that was perhaps CLass D/switching of some sort and seemed to have good speed and control accordingly. Audition was brief running of some newer larger and fairly pricey Totems that I had heard of other Mc amps prior.
Also saw the Mc turntable in question. YEs, that is quite different looking and unique, a good thing to help distinguish it from the pack. Did not get to hear it so I would withhold judgement accordingly. Speed meters does not seem like a bad idea to me if done well. Used to be that most all Japanese and European turntables had strobe devices of some sort on them to help identify any speed issue. Those were useful! Often, speed variations observed but perhaps hard to hear could be corrected easily by cleaning the belt and pulley mechanism. That was often needed for good results, even with new tables. You would think more modern and way more expensive tables would have some way built in to validate proper speed! What might they be hiding? |
Donjr, Why worry about why some diss Mac? If you like it, enjoy it! Probably those in the "I want every last clinical detail wrung out of my equipment" or the "I want totally neutral sound (does that exist?)" won't like MacIntosh. Those who prefer the warmish, more romantic sound do. We all hear differently and have different priorities about the sound we prefer. Neither camp is correct, both preferences are valid. |
@ Audiozen, No I will not mention Taralabs,LOL! your post is on the money!Mcintosh, bose, done all that!, you should do what these people asked of you!, tell them what you have for equipment so they will understand your were you are comming from!, lol!, cheers! |
A few weeks ago I was at a show. I listend to the 1.2 kw with the Focal Scala's. The control was not good. Also the speed and timing was not good as well. I talkes this week to someone who owned the 1.2 kw. He told me the same that the speed and control is not the best part of Mcintosh. That was the reason why he sold it. |
Agm,
I agree with you! That table is ridiculous looking. |
I agree with Audiozen in that Macs have that "classic" sound quality that is often scoffed at due to its coloration of sound. Personally, I like the "colored" sound of my Sunfire Sigs more than any Krell I've heard. And I like the sound of all of the Macs that I heard at my local shop, which sells their amps exclusively. However, I also agree that they may be a tad overpriced; a B&K with that similar "classic" quality can be had for half the price, for example.
I would like to offer one other possibility as to all of the Mac hating: a loss of exclusivity. McIntosh over time became a sort of symbol of the Audiophile, while brands such as Pass and Bryston will elicit a "who?" from the common folk. I have been a Martin Logan fan for my entire life. One day I walked into a Best Buy and almost shit a gold brick when I saw a pair of Logans there (along with some B&Ws and Marantz pres). I was a bit perturbed for a while that my beloved electrostatics would not be an alien concept to people anymore due to their availability at a commoner store, but in the end, they still sound like Logans (minus the Motion series). |
Taters, I've read hear on Agon about some people that were unhappy with the Pass Int-150. I've never heard it but I am a integrated guy and would like to.
Bongofury, I've noticed exactly what you said. Musicians tend to gravitate towards the Mac gear. This has been happening for a very long time. |
"I have been in the pro music space for 30 years."
Nice to hear from that side of the aisle. I worked in the studios (NYC) and often wondered if the band was playing or if it was tape playback when I entered a control room. (the analogue days).
And appreciate some real-world comments, Bongofury. |
I went into a local dealer and he had the McIntosh turntable. It was sitting in what looked like the frame of an amp, with two big blue dials on the front for turntable speed (!). Utterly ridiculous.Anything to put those blue dials on the product, but the TT looked absurd. Maybe that mentality is why McIntosh gets bashed. |
Don Jr.
I have been in the pro music space for 30 years. I work with the best of best in terms of bands. These people have discerning ears. I frequently see McIntosh equipment at their homes.
My father was a noted music cat and he owned both a McIntosh 275 and a JBL Paragon. Both provided him four decades of pleasure.
Most audiophile gear maintains less than 50% of its purchase price. Few are classics. I can tell you that there is a cadre of fans who look for classic pieces, such as the 1950/60s Thorens, 1970s Marantz receivers, JBL and Yamaha pro gear, mostly in Europe and Japan, where these products did not have distribution. The only label that actually sells near retail is McIntosh. Not Conrad-J, not Pass, not AR.
I listen to professional grade rigs all the time. I find it funny that many consumer grade products exclaim that they are "reference."
I hope that you someday can afford McIntosh. Musical to degree that few consumer brands are. Nice selection of entry points. Well thought out electronics that will power most speakers. |
Donjr, you may be my brother from another monther, I too bought my first system at 12 yrs old with paper route money! Sadly, nowdays, it's adults delivering the paper |
Taters asked:
Who are these people that are unhappy with Pass? I've never seen a negative comment about Pass.
I am one. In my system, using 4 different speakers, the X250.5 sounded thin and electronic. I bought it because I never read a negative comment either. Sent it to Pass for a check up, and it was all good. Ironically, I bought it used here on Audiogon, and the guy who sold it to me told me (after the sale) that he had replaced it with Mac 501 monos and liked them much better. |
Audiozen,
I think you nailed it! |
Mcintosh brand is a national treasure IMHO. Stop beating it up, even if its not your cup of tea! SAme true of OHM Acoustics. :^) |
What other people think.....why does that make any difference to you? Read long enough and you will find "haters" of any product.
I'd be more interested in what causes someone to be a hater to begin with. Seems like a crappy way to go thru life but it's their life and they can spend it any way they like and they WILL let me spend mine the way I like.
As to, "Meanwhile there's a lot more people unhappy with the Pass." More? Not what I have read but if that's what you found "in the places you looked", fine. I've owned Mac for 30 years and loved it. I now own Pass and love it. Whether someone else hates it or loves it doesn't make any difference to my enjoyment. |
Here is why many don't like MAC. Newer Audiophile's during the past twenty year's have no interest in the "Classic" sound character of how electronic's sounded back in the 60's and 70's. Back then amps sounded more relaxed, warm,
recessed, very smooth, and a slightly colored midrange bloom. MAC has kept in place that "Classic" sound quality that still sounds like their gear from forty year's ago. With today's
Audiophile's its all about neutrality, extreme detail, and transparency, with a very wide and deep soundstage. Completely the opposite of the classic analog sound from year's ago. You have to rembember that people back in the
60's lived in smaller home's and smaller apartment's. Back
then most Audiophiles were using KLH bookshelf speaker's with small MAC amps or receiver's, or gear from Dynaco or Fisher and their Garrard turntable's. The rise of the digital age changed all that and the sonic character that's preferred nowaday's is a more forward open neutral quality without grain or harshness. The generation your from determine's if you like the more classic style or the type of sound born from the digital age. |
Donjr,
Who are these people that are unhappy with Pass? I've never seen a negative comment about Pass. |
The blue VU meters...what about that? Nobody does meters like those guys. |
I'd like to also mention that yes, although the sound/synergy and function is most important I can't get over the fact that for me looks do play a role. The same goes for homes and cars. It's natural that you would spend your money on something you enjoy the looks of. I could give you a good comparison of looks over function but I'd be kicked off the forum. |
Well there's certainly a lot of people who have never owned Mac gear that hold a rather strong opinion of them. There's also effischer who's been a dealer for some of the most sought after gear in the industry back in the day and he's running all McIntosh gear. Are we so sure (those who claim McIntosh parts quality is poor) that McIntosh is still using poor quality parts?
I recently watched an interview on one of the morning shows with the CEO who claimed every bit of a McIntosh is made in the U.S. and that will never change under his watch. I mean honestly, these engineers weren't slackers and all they cared about was the music. I've never read a single word about an engineer who didn't love working for McIntosh. They dragged engineers in from all over the world. They were single handedly responsible for taking the Beatles from a PA system to serious hifi. Their history is by far more storied than any other hifi manufacturer on the planet.
McIntosh is a serious competitor to Luxman and Accuphase. Most of the McIntosh gear is exported to Japan. I'd dare say Japan might be a larger market for any hifi company than the U.S. I haven't heard a good argument against McIntosh thus far. No more so than any other manufacturer. Is a Pass Labs Int 150 any better than a MA6600? I've read plenty of bad reviews of the Pass. Of course the answer will always be whatever you like. The deal is that if you like the Pass Labs you're okay but if you like the McIntosh MA6600 you wasted your money on a pretty glass faceplate you lousy stinkin' lawyer or doctor. Meanwhile there's a lot more people unhappy with the Pass. |
typo..I "was" not "I wash"...jeez! |
Part of the reason McIntosh resale is above average and people are still talking about them (good or bad) is that they are still in business, ownership regardless. In the last 5 decades of their existence much of high end audio has come and gone with the wind, and I dare say that will eventually include some of today's most buzz worthy companies. McIntosh may not be the last word in sonics, and they have have diluted their brand with too many products, but they have a strong and steady heartbeat. Same could be said of ARC and Magnepan. |
Don't get me wrong..I wash trashing Bose, not McIntosh. The first time I heard McIntosh was in 1970. Went to a Christmas dinner on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington. The host had a MAC tube receiver in his living room hooked up to a pair of floor speaker's. Sound was excellent. The one company that gave MAC a run for their money was Fisher. Their tube receiver's from the 60's were outstanding. I trash Bose and will always remember when Amar Bose sued High Fidelity Magazine in Superior Court in New York in 1968 for a very negative review of his 901 speakers that just came out. He lost. |
|
...many of the responses here seem to come from audio snobs that are still concerned that their audio peers will question their "audio stature" if they dare buy such "pedestrian" gear...insecure and sad.
Pepe |
Love the way so many harsh McIntosh critics don't list their own systems for discussion. |
Yep..about as iconic as Bose. Back in 1970 those Doctor's and Dentist's loved putting together their MAC gear with Blose speaker's. Yuk! Put my finger down my throat! |
