Why Do Schumann Resonators Work?
@jerry When we speak rudely about @millercarbon -- or anyone in here for that matter -- we may offend half the room, mon frere. Look up Dither. Also remember that the scientific community called Vitamin C a "witch doctor" cure for scurvy for nearly 200 years. Here is what the Romans used to say, every day, to make people like you go away: "GO AND PURCHASEUS MORE TREATAMENTOS ACOUSTICUS"
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@millercarbon. You have issues with reading comprehension. As I stated I have tried all your silly crap, Sticks, Generators, Rock, Crystals….. And none of that voodoo is real. You are a charlatan and shill and full of carp. Go push some mediocre gear and speakers and then spent $10 k on rocks and crystals. I get why you are so loved around here. You truly are a despicable shill. Later Chuck you make me 🤮 |
No need to apologize mahgister, especially not when so rudely insulted by jerryg123 who is after all only jumping to conclusions. I tried three times to start a discussion about how it is that we learn to hear things we are not accustomed to hearing. A few really are interested but it seems a lot more are offended to think they are not already the last word in listening skills and so they made like jerryg123 here throwing insults instead of trying to maybe learn something new. Most everyone is able to hear volume. If the claim is one is louder than another pretty much everyone is able to judge. Frequency response is really just volume, but now it gets a little bit harder because we are trying to judge volume not just overall but at different frequencies. This takes a bit of practice but eventually a lot of us are able to do it. From here on out though it gets a lot harder- and fast. Lots of things resonate and this alters frequency response but in a more subtle harder to discern kind of way. All instruments and voices have their own resonances, as do rooms and microphones, etc, and this all makes it a real challenge to differentiate and discern what is doing what. Awful lot of audiophiles never do get this one down. It is shocking how much of this resonant coloration there is, but maybe not so shocking in light of how few audiophiles are even aware it is going on. We haven't even gotten to how we learn to listen for these things, still just putting labels on a few of them. One of these someone was asking about recently is grain. Grain is a little harder to describe. Nothing changes in terms of tone or frequency response, the sound just gets a little bit smoother and more natural when there is less grain. Most all components have a lot more grain when new or cold than after burning in or warming up. So one way to learn to hear grain is learn to hear the difference between your amp (DAC, phono stage, etc) when cold vs some hours later. Part of what I hear with SG is a reduction in grain. Another one is hash or grunge or noise floor, whatever you want to call it. This one is probably some combination of RFI and EMI, but who knows? Doesn't matter. What it is, that is a different subject. One thing audiophiles are good at, switching subjects. Real serious obstacle to learning. Ditch it. Back to the subject: how this, whatever we call it, sounds. Here the simplest test is to turn off some circuit breakers. Do this and you will hear a noticeable reduction in hash or grunge, a blacker background, with more air around images. Part of what I hear with SG is a reduction in grunge, a bit blacker background, and a bit more palpable imaging. I would not say the improvement is huge. To me it is obvious, but then I am an exceptionally discerning listener. Sorry if my being good offends those who are not, but this is in no way a zero sum game. Nothing will make me happier than you read and learn and become a better listener than me. Because I want a better system. If you can hear things I can't I want to know about it, so I can maybe learn and become better myself. Now that we have us some labels, to put SG in perspective, I would say the 9 I have makes an improvement roughly about as good as the improvement in my system from when it is first turned on to how much better it is an hour or so later. That is all. For me that is more than enough to justify the $90 they cost me. If for you it is not, oh well. Between Chuxpona and Chuctoberfest we have had personal direct experience with a number of audiophiles. Some of them frankly admit to not being able to hear things that are obvious to others. This goes both ways. I am supposedly deaf to gross harmonic defects. Whatever. Would like to know what that is all about. Which notice, is a completely different response than calling the other guy names. |
Tweak versus method Buying a ready made "tweak" and seating after that to listen for the audible effect is what most people in the "tweaking" business do, sellers and consumers alike.... It is not my way.... I dont buy costly ready made "tweak" why ? Not mainly because they are costly, some are not, but because any "tweak" by definition is only a SECONDARY Add-on to the system causing it to improve or not... "Tweaks" dont solve the THREE PRIMARY problems... If we speak about an existing audio system, the PRIMARY problems are related to the primary working dimensions of any audio system: electrical noise floor control and decreasing method and devices, mechanical vibrations controls method and devices, and especially acoustical passive treatment and mechanical active control devices and method... Then a "tweak" is not an experimental set of listenings experiments where we create specific homemade or low cost device solutions... If we dont adress these 3 working dimensions controls by METHOD and spare our time with only money and buy some "tweak" we dont SOLVE the 3 primary problems, especially the acoustical complex one... I never recommend any tweak here, especially costly Schuman generator... I recommend 10 us. bucks chineese one to play with in an experiment... But ionizers and S.G. CANNOT and NEVER will replace a string of listening experiments in acoustic and psycho-acoustic for example...You cvannot solve room problem with a Schuman Generator.... I "sell" creativity at no cost or peanutrs cost not "tweaks".... If someone buy them it is not my fault... I wrote at lenght about my listening experiments about acoustic and vibrations controls for example...NONE of my devices cost more than few cents....The more costly are "secondary" devices like ionizers at 20 bucks and S.G. at 10 bucks... Alleged Snake oiler sellers are always related to snake oiler consumers... I am neither of one... Now a concrete exemple of a specific "tweak" and the difference with a method... For speakers vibration control i read about a "tweak" which consist to place rubber pucks under the speakers... this is a "tweak" that can improve or not the S.Q. But there will be also a possible trade-off with different specfic type of speakers... All puck dont work the exact same results under all type of speakers... My method here first begins with coupling/decoupling sandwiches of 5 different materials under my speakers...I created this sandwich myself at no cost...After that i bought cheap chinese springs boxes and i created a new way to use them with a dyssimetrical compressive force under 2 sets of 4 with each speaker and a heavy fine tuned damping load of concrete for the compressive force all that by listening experiments... The results were astounding....A method could sove optimally at no cost a problem.... A "tweak" cannot...A "tweak" can be a good add-on, or a detrimental one with a trade-off which we are complety unconscious about, because we had not plan any complementary experiments to improve it or discount it...We act without method.... I dont need pucks under my speaker...Not because "tweak" dont work at all , they work, but a more systematical approach focusing on the three PRIMARY problems is more fertile work than just a " plaster" sometimes on an open wound... And using a puck or buying a sophisticated puck system sold like a "tweak" is not the solution for me.... Then if someone TRY a "tweak" like a cheap Schuman generator, it is a playful experiments i suggested here not a solution for the three main primary problems in audio at all.... No tweak replace method and no tweak replace acoustic control.... None.... |
@mahgister.i understand your anger... And i admit to owe you an apology... I apologize sincerely for my post... Indeed you had tried these S.G. and were not experimenting the same thing than me and some others... I understand that because it is not the first modification we must do anyway in our audio system and room like i had repeateadly said and it is not always audible effect on all acoustic settings or systems... Then what is easy to verify in some circonstance is not always repeatable in OTHER circonstances... It is the reason why in all my posts i promote ACOUSTIC treatment and controls FIRST over any other "tweaks" save perhaps vibrations controls and electrical noise floor control.... Then concluding that a cheap S.G. does not work after your experience is not by any means a final word, because it works for many others people... The main reason are linked to the different characteristic of different systems and their specific acoustic environment... For me the effect of the S.G. grid is easy to verify by disconnecting it gradually or completely but is at the same time a perceptible effect tributary also of other acoustics settings in our room... I am sorry for my erroneous post about you where i mistakenly confuse you with a closed mind dogmatist .... You are not one... But clearly a free investigative spirit.... My best to you.... |
@mahgister. Bought 8 of them as well as tuning sticks, rocks, gems, crystals and none of that voodoo did a thing. Period. So how is that for an open mind? Do make disparaging remarks when you have no clue! You are easy to classify to it is called a MARK by CON MEN! Or in the words of PT Barnum "A sucker is born every minuet" How about Thomas Tusser " A fool and his money are soon parted" Think you have that tinfoil hat on a we might tight eh? So my word for you is actually two words Gullible Sucker! Your post is not the peak of open mind spirit i read here... |
LOL they do not work!Your post is not the peak of open mind spirit i read here... Sheeps usually are easy to classify...They always comes in 2 groups... In audio thread: gullible audiophiles and enlightened.... (pick your word) But like already said Groucho Marx: « An enlightened sheep is always a sheep» 🤓 |
Heck mahgister you already are one,Sorry millercarbon you are wrong here... I am in no way an expert in anything...Save the art of reading books... But i have done listening experiments with homemade devices... This does not qualify me in anything... Save the elementary facts i learned about doing this...These elementary facts are the only thing i communicate here... and this could be put in one line: Dont upgrade your gear before embedding it rightfully in his mechanical, electrical and ESPECIALLY acoustical working dimensions... Thanks anyway for your generosity toward me... I just need to set record straight for all readers... |
Oh, we don’t need to wait. That would be illogical anyway. Because you are right, the people who supposedly have the "expertise" to answer don’t exist. This is always the problem any time you are on the sharp end of the spear, pushing the envelope, as they say in The Right Stuff. We are on the frontier, the territory ahead every bit as unknown as any Lewis and Clark encountered. That the frontier is understanding sound and listening really is not fundamentally any different than the unknown of the territory ahead. Why more don’t get this I will never understand. Especially since their "wait for the experts" is diminishing and self-defeating. Where do experts come from anyway? Another planet? Solar system? Universe? Pretty sure they come from right next door. Instead of helplessly waiting for one to beam in, the guy who thinks experts are so great could go to work and become one himself. Why not? Isn’t that what the expert did? Either that or there was some magic wand involved. I think he did it himself. Which means you can too. Heck mahgister you already are one, if you ask me. Now if you can just get a few more to follow in your footsteps..... |
In this, I found them of some value for limited time, over the long run I’ve not found them beneficial. I have kept my two along with the LPS for them, will continue to insert from time to time in case I make future changes in which they might prove to be of value again.In my experience their perceived "value" is greatly modified increased or erased if the acoustic of the room is not at efficient level of control..... And the effect is system dependent also...In some case they can cause an impression of degradation of the sound, especially if the system is deficient itself...For example harsh high frequencies increase confused with sonic details... The cure is to modify the system or the S.G. Modifying the S.G. is easy with minerals and crystals... ( It is not necessary here to laugh at me) Many people dont perceive any effect from them... Because their system is not at the right level or their room is not under acoustic control...Or the two.... By the way speculating about the cause of this audible effect is not a scientific explanation , even us audiophiles we know that.... |
Audiophiles are not likely to have the expertise to answer your question. In doing my research prior to purchasing SR I found the scientific 'evidence' for health benefits laughable. I didn't purchase my SR's for lowering of noise floors/blocking RFI or health benefits, solely for purported audio sound quality improvements. SR should be rightly thought of as purely room treatment devices, nothing more, nothing less. In this, I found them of some value for limited time, over the long run I've not found them beneficial. I have kept my two along with the LPS for them, will continue to insert from time to time in case I make future changes in which they might prove to be of value again. |
Not quite good enough to be sure this is how it works, but for sure we found one not so easily crossed off the list. It also cross my mind but you explained it here better than i did... I concur with your hypothesis millercarbon... Add to that explanation the fact that putting a crystal like herkimer diamond or a mineral like shungite on top of the S.Q. may modify the sound.... for the better in my experiment.... |
Did I not answer this? Coulda sworn .... Somewhere. Oh well. Start with the fact they do work. As mahgister said it is not placebo, it is real. Okay so then what is going on? It can't be acoustic. SG is radio waves not sound. Scratch that. There is a psychological/mental effect. Lots of people say so, that is their experience, and just as with the sound effect we have no good reason to discount their reports and have to believe them. Plus there is Krissy's cat, no matter where she puts the SG the cat finds it curls up and sleeps next to it. Plus the first thing I noticed when I got mine was a slight headache. So they definitely do something. But it doesn't make things sound better, or I would notice all sounds being better, which they aren't, only the stereo, so scratch that. SG are radio waves. Radio waves crossing wires induce a current in the wire. This is why RFI is such a problem, and why eliminating it improves sound quality so much. The SG by adding RFI would seem to only be able to make things worse. Scratch that one. Not so fast! Dither is noise added to a signal that improves the perceived resolution of the signal! Dither is used extensively in video, has been for decades. Dither is randomized, but in a very particular way. Just as there is white noise and pink noise, both random yet different, so there are different forms or types of dither. This is kind of a big one, people might want to look into it. Synergistic HFT seem to work based on some sort of dither principle. Okay, so what if the particular RFI produced with SG just happens to be of a sort that helps us perceive greater resolution in the signal? If that were the case then we might expect to hear improvement similar in nature to what we hear when RFI is reduced. Turns out this is exactly what I am hearing. If this theory is right then just as video dither can be tuned for effect so this one could be as well. Lo and behold, Synergistic has different settings on their FEQ that have this very effect. Not quite good enough to be sure this is how it works, but for sure we found one not so easily crossed off the list. |
Can anyone answer that without snark or sarcasm? (yeah, I know, a tough ask on the internet.) I cannot answer your question being in no way a scientist...i apologize for my inability to really help about an explanation... I already described in this thread what i was doing with my S.G. grid ( i own 12) all i know is that these does not degrade the sonic of my gear/room in any way at all... It is easy to verify for me each day.... I begin the day with none of them on... In the afternoon reading near my desk i listen music in nearfield with 3 on or off.... the three most powerful S.G. are on my desk near the gear... 😊 In the evening in regular listening position i switch on all the grid of 12 which are distributed around me... Great difference in the listening nearfield or in regular position which is relative to the number of S.G. on and off , i seach for an acoustic metaphor here, the music is more easily floating toward my ears with them than without them.... The effect is immediate if i switch them on and off, on and off.... What change the sound color though ( for the best) is what i put on the top of the Schuman Genetaror: shungite thin plate with copper on the external side and herkimer diamond on it.... The shuman generator make easier for the sound wave to be catch by the ears...The air between instrument is more sensible and the soundstage is more detailled...It is like the color of my natural sound is more detailed now... I dont know of any rigorous scientific explanation...Nor for the S.G. itself, nor for the additive sound effect of the Shungite+copper and Herkimer diamond.... it is filtering and blocking EFI and RFI ? Probably.... But i guess in the dark.... the only thing i know for sure is it is not a placebo effect mainly.... I lost my only physicist friend...and his world-wide expertise was in electro magnetic field of the brain.. Too bad... My best to you.... |
Geez. I read through this entire thread and not a single person could answer this question from the OP: " Does it help block or alter electromagnetic interference? " The literature that accompanies many SGs say that it helps with EMI and RFI interference. How? If a low tone of 7.83 hertz has the ability to affect signals running between 2.5 megahertz to 5 gigahertz, it seems like there would be interference somewhere. As if your cellular signal would cut out or your Wi-Fi coverage would drop. Some literature use the words, "control." Is it that it helps block reflected signal or degraded/attenuated signal? Sort of like filtering the air and streamline all the signals? Everything I read about these generators seems to change or purposely have key information left out, as though if you knew, you would probably just make your own. What I gather is, these high band signals cause damage to humans when exposed for long periods of time, but the 7.83 hertz wave helps the body heal from this damage. That's all well and good, but how or why does it affect audio? I get that EMI and RFI from solar radiation and interference from the magnetosphere can harm electronic device's functions, what I don't understand is how using a SG can change the EMI and RFI in a room as though that room were no longer subject to these signals. Such as night fall when the Earth has turned away from the Sun. Can anyone answer that without snark or sarcasm? (yeah, I know, a tough ask on the internet.) |
Anyway i dont think that S.G. work in my audio system by the emission of a very "precise" electro magnetic pulse corresponding to the very EXACT Schumann resonance... Any low pulse or infrasound near 7 hertz will do.... i bought some chinese S.G. for 10 bucks and it is easy to guess how they work, increasing the acoustical listener envelopment factor of sound....They introduce some low pulse in the electrical grid of the room and this help a lot to focus and enhance the "sound impression"...Any low frequencies , infrasound one, will do.... It is my hypothesis.... I am not a scientist.... One thing is certain if i want to use them for a better sleep i will order more costlier and efficient one able to produce a stable exact 7.83 hertz .... But an experiment in audio for 20 bucks will only give fun.... If not, called that "snake oil" and go for the rest of your life clamouring with a "proof" that all audiophiles are idiots.... Is it not worth it to be able to laugh at people for so less money ? 😊 I apologize for my sarcasm.... |
Everywhere I've read, the spacing between each "mode", from 14.3 Hz on up, is about 6.5 Hz in spacing. It occurs to me that, since simple pulse generators based on oscillators like the 555 timer put out a square or rectangular pulse, their outputs cannot be correctly simulating the Schumann Resonances, because the discrepancy between the true harmonics of the pulse generator's 7.83 Hz, and the Schumann partials at 6.5 Hz spacing, keeps growing as you move up in frequency. The only frequency the two have in common is the fundamental, of 7.83 Hz. This problem has bothered me for a while, and suggests to me that we really don't understand the reasons for the discrepancy. Wikipedia and others say it's due to the spherical geometry involved, but that really doesn't explain things adequately. And the formula they give seems empirical and gives erroneous answers for the predicted frequencies of the upper modes or partials. Just thought I'd post this question to see if anyone else had noticed that things don't quite add up. Thanks for your response. |
The idea came from a study of our atmosphere. The ionosphere is a high layer of the atmosphere that because it is charged reflects a certain range of electromagnetic radiation back to earth, where it bounces back again. Since the Earth is round this layer is spherical and so like anything else if you hit it with some energy that will excite it and the whole thing will vibrate or ring. So your lightning or volcanic eruption puts energy in, triggering the so-called Schumann resonances. There are a number of them. I don't know if 6.5Hz is any more representative or not. Where the 7.83 came from, for all I know it is easy to make them that way, it falls within the range, and more numbers to the right of the decimal point makes any number sound a whole lot more sciency and precise whether it is or not. |
I've just received a second SG in the mail, a third on the way. Right now listening to a second system, one SG near the NAD amp, closer to the left speaker than the right, the other SG near me. Will try them next in the main system, one between and behind the speakers, 6' high, the other near the electronics (pretty much equidistant to the amps, ADC power conditioner, turntable, and DAC). When the third one gets here, it will be at my listening sofa. Where do you place yours? How much have you experimented, and what kind of differences have you noticed? |
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audiozenology"One should always trust the guy who has never designed any RF equipment and has never designed antennas for their RF knowledge." Oddly you critically comment, instruct, and advice here even though you lack much fundamental understanding of even basic, rudimentary, iintroductory electricity and electronics, like in that thread where you "overlooked" the existence, properties and influence of induction. That was very funny and it probably is not fair for me to keep bringing it up but you just seem to have a need to be reminded. |
One should always trust the guy who has never designed any RF equipment and has never designed antennas for their RF knowledge. I know that is the path most companies who do RF products take ... geoffkait19,096 posts12-27-2019 4:56pmYou’re barking at the moon, cowboy. I don’t make any claims. You must be mistaking me for someone who cares. Any knucklehead can find some ridiculous claims on the internet if he looks 👀 hard enough. If I can be so bold I suggest you back to whatever bunch of pseudo-scientist posers you came from. |
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