why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
elizabeth - .... there could be a difference and a possible measurement no one has found yet? I personally am not saying there is. But no one can say with absolute certainty(with the current state of the art) that there is NOT....
I’m saying with absolute certainty you or anyone else cannot reliably hear an audible difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed. You seem honest. Try a blind test for yourself where a friend of yours reverses the cable without your knowledge. Be honest about it and report back whether or not you can hear a difference.
EDIT: and in this context a blind test is simply a situation where you cannot see or have prior knowledge as to what is or is not actually occurring. Simple really. No need for a lot of nonsense regarding the duration of time between sound 1 and sound 2. You know, do the Amy and Bob test. Throw on Amy Winehouse. Then throw on Bob Dylan. *You* should be able to hear the difference 100 percent of the time and under any circumstance. *I* can. Seems to me (and many other naysayers) the proponents of expensive cables or reversing cables should be subject to the same standard.
cleeds -Why prove it offline? Why not submit your "proof" to the scrutiny of the group?
Because (a) I’m not the one stating there is a difference and (b) proving that there is or isn’t apparently cannot be done with written words to the satisfaction of the forum. You know the saying, "ain’t nothing better than the real thing".
... proving that
there is or isn't apparently cannot be done with written words to the
satisfaction of the forum ...
What does that mean? Users here are free to discuss the results of listening tests, including blind tests. So it isn't clear why you'd want such discussions held offline, unless you're promoting your phony $25,000 challenge again. Is that what you're up to, gdhal?
^ Only thing phony comes from those who state they can do the impossible. Audibly detecting with the naked ear a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed falls in to the category of impossible.
Only thing phony comes from those who state they can do the impossible.
Why wouldn't you want details about the listening test you propose - and the testing itself - to be done in public? What's with the secrecy?
Just to be clear, I'm not stating whether I think wire directionality is audible or not, and neither am I a big proponent of blind testing for audio in general. Certainly, no one here owes anyone any proof at all about anything. But if we're going to discuss some kind of blind test on this forum, it's absurd to then shuffle it entirely offline at some early stage. Unless, that is, you're promoting your funny $25,000 listening challenge again.
If you want to keep your "challenge" offline, why do keep raising it in this public forum?
Oh and cleeds, elizabeth, geoff, et al, I give you my permission - although not my blessing - to spend as much as you like on expensive cables, if you're among those who "feel the need" to. :)
It's obvious - to me anyway - you haven't understood my previous posts in this regard ...
Please feel free to correct me. My understanding is that you've proposed testing the audibility of wire directionality, but whenever anyone expresses interest in such a test, you direct the conversation offline. What part of that do I have wrong?
Just as there was something wrong with the programming of the HAL 9000 computer, you could say it’s a glitch and I won’t mention exactly whose avatar HAL 9000 is.....Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do, I’m half crazy all for the love of you....🎼
cleeds - Please feel free to correct me. My understanding is that you've proposed testing the audibility of wire directionality, but whenever anyone expresses interest in such a test, you direct the conversation offline. What part of that do I have wrong?
The part you have wrong is that I'm *NOT* proposing testing the audibility of wire directionality. I'm proposing *YOUR ABILITY TO HEAR IT* with the naked ear using mutually agreed objective testing. You know, like Amy and Bob.
"Hearing" is something that can only be accomplished offline, true?
geoffkait - Just as there was something wrong with the programming of the HAL 9000 computer.....
Point well taken Geoff. And yes, the avatar is that of the HAL 9000. I never said, implied, or wrote there isn't anything "wrong" with me though. In fact, if you search the forum, you can easily find that I've stated "I’m proud to be in the minority". But among the things I know are "right", are the inability for humans to do the impossible. And the impossible includes hearing a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed.
I'm *NOT* proposing testing the audibility of
wire directionality. I'm proposing *YOUR ABILITY TO HEAR IT* with the
naked ear using mutually agreed objective testing ..."Hearing" is something that can only be accomplished offline, true?
It sounds like we're talking about the same thing here, so let's discuss what would constitute a valid objective test. There's no reason to discuss that in secret, is there?
I'm not sure what you mean by "the naked ear." Is that supposed to be amusing, or do you mean you'd not allow use of headphones for your listening test? Using headphones in tests such as this can eliminate some variables and be very useful, and would certainly be my preference here.
As for the test itself - perhaps that's something that could be done in public, such as at a dealer, or audio society meeting. We could resolve those details later, after we've designed the test first.
Meanwhile, I hope you find a way to fix that CAPS LOCK key..
^ Headphones would be fine. I've previously posted my test scenario. That was rejected for invalid reasons. Nevertheless, I asked for *YOUR* (caps lock must still be broken) test, and that too was rejected as being to much to ask. In any case cleeds, *YOU* (there goes that nasty caps lock key again) cannot hear a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed.
Besides, I already gave you my permission to spend whatever you like on cables. After further review, I neglected (unintentionally mind you) to give you my permission to reverse your cables. I am hereby giving you my permission - although not my blessing - to reverse your cables.
^ Headphones would be fine. I’ve previously posted my test scenario. That was rejected for invalid reasons.
As I recall, you suggested having a friend disconnect and reconnect the cables while changing the cable’s direction. That kind of test has two flaws for our purpose here: It’s not double-blind, and it doesn’t allow for quick switching between the two orientations. It just wouldn't be an objective test.
While I think abx tests using an abx comparator have potential flaws and aren’t always useful for detecting differences in audio equipment, they do address the need for double-blind and quick switching. Would you consider that kind of test?
In any case cleeds, *YOU* (there goes that nasty caps lock key again) cannot hear a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed.
I don’t know if that’s true, or not. Isn’t that the purpose of the test? And what do you mean by "ordinary speaker wire?" Zip chord?
You also didn’t answer whether you’d be willing to conduct the test in public, such as at a dealer or audio society meeting.
I already gave you my permission to spend whatever you like on cables.
I’m not sure what your point is there. I obviously don’t need your permission for anything.
The fiction or ruse as you indicate belongs to those who believe and/or state the impossible. You know, that YOU can hear an audible difference...
I never made that claim - I just agreed to participate in the "mutually agreed objective testing" that you said you’d pursue. As it turns out, you’re not interested in such a test, but only a rigged test that you seek to pursue privately.
@gdhal, just let me know if you ever have an interest in an objective listening test, such as a double-blind abx test that would be held in public - perhaps at an audio store or audiophile society meeting - and whose protocol could be discussed first here in public. It could be interesting, and we could get others to participate. After all, it was you who proposed the test in the first place.
What’s so weird about all this blind testing obsession and general angst over fuse and cable directionality, especially the charges of lying and or perpetrating a hoax by the pseudo skeptics is, what possible motive would anyone have for lying or perpetrating some kind of fraud or hoax based on directionality? Come on, people!! It’s certainly can not (rpt not) be financial gain, I seriously doubt any of the Big Players, you know, like Audioquest, HiFi Tuning, Anti Cables, Goertz, whoever, are getting a whole lot of new customers based solely on advertising “directionality” as a virtue.
“lying or perpetrating some kind of fraud or hoax based on directionality? Come on, people!! It’s certainly can not (rpt not) be financial gain, I seriously doubt any of the Big Players, you know, like Audioquest, HiFi Tuning, Anti Cables, Goertz, whoever, are getting a whole lot of new customers based solely on advertising “directionality” as a virtue.”
All this nonsense increases the mystique around fuses and cables. Instead of being what they are (ordinary bits of wire) they become the most incredibly complex and commensurately expensive pieces of audio equipment for all the audiofools that believe it.
Anyway coming from a proponent of hoaxes with a vested interest in fir profit sales it seems a bit rich for you to pretend innocence about what is really going down.
uh, shadorne, no it doesn’t increase mystique. That’s just plain silly. At least there is no mystique among users, they’ve been using aftermarket fuses for almost 20 years. Sufficiently advanced science only looks mysterious to pseu-pseu-pseudios. The only mystique is the one created by you and other witch hunters and investigators of paranormal activity. 🤡 I predict gdhal shows up in five minutes, four, three....
It is the same as cable/fuse/etc break in nonsense - self-serving bs from unscrupulous dealers.
Example
Buyer: I tried it I hear nothing I want money back
Seller: You need to give it 8 weeks to settle in.
(8 weeks later)
Buyer: I still hear nothing I want my money back
Seller: Try the other direction
Buyer: Ok I reversed it but I cant hear anything I want my money back.
Seller: You need to give it 8 more weeks be patient...
(8 weeks later)
Buyer: I cant hear anything I want my money back
Seller: We are making pink ones now, they are three generations better. I will send you one in return for the orange mark 42.56b model. We don’t do refunds after 90 days but I assure you that the pink ones are amazing - every one of my friends has posted excellent online reviews. Just give it 800 hours to break in.
I can only surmise you’re referring to gdhal or maybe George or the Wolfman, you know, as opposed to someone who’s actually tried reversing direction and hears it plain as day. Oh, well, maybe you can take some time and come up with some other ridiculous thing to say. Don’t strain your brain. 🧠 I’m going out on limb here perhaps but wouldn’t customers be LESS LIKELY to purchase a cable or fuse from a dealer who told them there’s a long break in period or they had to try the /cable fuse both ways? Hel-loo!
Suggestion to gdhal - you might consider using the Bozo the Clown emoji instead of the HAL-9000 for your avatar.
Lizzie, just in case you got left off the distribution list, all cables and interconnects including unshielded ones are directional, that’s what the little arrows mean. Not only that, but get this. HDMI cables and power cords are also being controlled for directionality, at least by Audioquest, since obviously the tiny wires in those cables and cords are also directional. that way you don’t find yourself in the embassassing position of not being able to get the correct direct. I’m quite confident all XLR cables from Audioquest are, in fact, controlled for directionality, too. Don’t freak out.
"I’m quite confident all XLR cables from Audioquest are, in fact, controlled for directionality. Don’t freak out."
Thanks Geoff for the reassurance. It is comforting to know you are "quite confident" that the Big Daddy of cable manufacturing has all of us unwitting buyers "covered" with respect to orienting their wires in the proper direction. I can't count the times I have come close to freaking out over the thought that even one of the bundled solid core wires in my Audioquest cables may have been inadvertently oriented in the wrong direction by some stoner making cables on a Friday afternoon after a night at bowling league.
Audioquest controls directionality for all of their interconnects, speaker cables, power cords and HDMI cables. I just got a string sense of den by. Oh, that’s because I just said that. Do a little investigation, you know, being a real skeptic and everything.
these discussions should just stop. Cables make major difference is systems depending the system itself .. higher resolution systems can benefit from higher end cables. I have heard the change countless times when I was in the business years ago. So these were not cables I bought so I needed to hear a difference. When the know it all post comes in "snake oil etc etc" "audiofools" .. my first thought it they do not really listen listen to their system
This looks like your $25,000 hustle all over again. No thanks. If you want to discuss arranging an honest listening test, let's discuss it here. I have nothing to hide.
marsrecords these discussions should just stop. Cables make major difference is systems depending the system itself .. higher resolution systems can benefit from higher end cables. I have heard the change countless times when I was in the business years ago. So these were not cables I bought so I needed to hear a difference. When the know it all post comes in "snake oil etc etc" "audiofools" .. my first thought it they do not really listen listen to their system
>>>>I suppose you could say it’s healthy to have a difference of opinion or have some kind of legitimate counter-argument from skeptics but I’m afraid these are not real debates. In fact many if these threads are started as a joke. Isn’t it obvious? The “Skeptics” are almost always little scamps who are in it strictly for the laughs and who enjoy teasing the audiophiles. It’s really as simple as that. Like cats teasing a dog. Isn’t it obvious? 😳
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
