@atmasphere Huh?
Why are my woofers pumping?
The other day, with sunlight direct from the side, I noticed that the
woofers in my speakers are pumping in and out, much more than I was aware of,
when the stylus is in the groove, even between tracks (no music). I can see it, even if I don’t hear it. Why
does it happen? The woofers behave normally (no pumping) with digital music, and
when the stylus it lifted from the groove, so it is not the speakers, amps,
preamp or phono stage.
I’ve read that the typical reason for woofer pumping is that the cartridge / arm resonance is too low. I tested, with my Hifi News test record, and yes, the lateral test puts the resonance at 7 hz or so – too low (but I’ve seen some doubts about the results from that test record). It is strange, since the combo I use – Lyra Atlas cartridge and SME V arm (on a Hanss T-30 player) is supposed to work well. I tried to strip my arm of extras, cleaned the damping trough, etc – but it did not help much.
Anyone has an idea, why it happens, or what to do about it?
185 responses Add your response
@o_holter A simple way to decrease the compliance of the cartridge would be to load it. I would try 50-100 ohms and see how that works out. Its not a sure bet- if you load the cartridge too low, its output will decrease, and in turn you phono preamp noise will be more audible. But its worth a try. Damping would probably make matters worse; I would run it without damping and remove the little bit that runs in the damping trough to reduce mass, even if its only a little bit. |
Interesting post as I had a similar post about a month ago regarding the compliance at 100 hz and I received no replies. Its a good question. A very good question. Someone at Lyra should respond to explain this as I am very interested in understanding this better. I noticed a similar thing, not that my woofers were pumping, but I heard what I believed to be a compliance issue. It is better now that the cartridge is broken in but sometimes I do ask myself this question as well. Maybe Lyras are made for lighter arms if the compliance is so high at 10Hz. |
Thanks, all! Great to get so much expertise input! Cartridge is probably OK, not worn, no sign of wear, or mistracking. Like I said, it is not the Io phono stage, since when the stylus is lifted from the groove, the woofers stop pumping. I have tried a platter mat, and different weights – no difference. Mechanical problems? Player is level, on a solid stone rack. Testing with sthetoscope and fingers: very silent. I do find that the shaft that holds the spindle could be tightened a bit, but I don’t think this relates to the pumping. Also, this is clearly not related to airborne feedback, position of speakers, damping, etc. Either, the woofers pump (stylus in the groove), or they don’t. It happens on all kinds of records, is not dependent on warps or record problems. My new diagnosis is this. 1) Like many of you have said, the Lyra Atlas /SME V combo can be non-optimal – the resonance is too low. Maybe, those who don’t hear problems, have a less resolving system at low Herz, or a subsonic filter. I think I have solved the numbers mystery. The Atlas specs say: “Compliance 12 x 10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz”. But the calculators I have found (e g at Vinylengine) measure compliance at 10Hz. Noone seems to know the exact conversion, but a rule of thumb is to multiply the 100Hz value with 1.5 or 2 to get the approximate 10Hz value. This means that the Atlas compliance is in the region 20 to 24 (not 12). Using this value in the calculators, I do get a too low resonance for the combo, around 7.5 Hz. This fits quite well with my Hifi News record lateral test result (6-7Hz). Since obviously people have used Lyra’s with similar compliance to the Atlas and SME V arms to great benefit, the correct term is probably “borderline low”. It can be good enough, or not, depending on the system. 2) With this “borderline low” situation, the cart/arm picks up too much of what happens down in the subsonic region. I tested with a record at the end of the runout groove, just now. The usual situation where the LP is still going round at the end, with an audible pop for each revolution. The pop is clearly audible. The pumping is only or mainly visual. I think they interfer with each other (indicating that the pumping is no good for the sound). I also found that there is a rythm to the pumping. A pattern is repeated for each revolution, so if I change platter speed from 33 to 45 rpm, it happens faster. My conclusion: The cartridge picks up player rumble. This is not because the player is bad or poorly tuned (the Hanss T30 has received a lot of praise for its silent motors, combined magnetic/ceramic spindle system, speed stability, “inflappable” quality etc) it is just what you get when you turn on a flashlight or microphone down low, in the 5-7Hz region. Assuming that the low resonance acts like a microphone (which fits my testing). Agreements – or not? Am I overlooking something? So – what to do? Some of you say a filter works, others that it doesn’t. For me, with a great cart and arm, prone to run many years ahead, it could be worth trying. Other options (change cart, arm) are far more expensive. Suggestions welcome. There are small XLR filters, but the ones I’ve seen on the net are for microphone use, with too high cutoffs, 100 or 50Hz. |
I am no expert but I had the same problem with a VPI Prime Signature and a very sensitive Van den Hul cartridge. I moved the cartridge to my other VPI Prime Signature (identical) and the problem stopped. Turned out it was a acoustic feedback loop being caused by low level sound waves bouncing off the corner of the room. VPI turntables are well isolated but the VDH cartridge is very sensitive. So I agree with those who suggest isolating the turntable. That said, some cartridge tonearm combinations don't work, usually low mass cartridges on high mass arms. |
Set the volume at the lowest setting at which the woofers pump with the platter spinning and the stylus in the groove. Place the arm at rest. Does the pumping stop or continue? If the woofer pumps with the arm at rest (at a volume at which you might play music), the cause would appear to be acoustic breakthrough/feed back loop: TT/arm/cartridge > amp > speakers > air > TT/arm/cartridge > etc). The solution is to minimize acoustic breakthrough via one or more of the following:
Increase TT to speaker distance
Place
TT and speakers in different rooms
It appears other users reported good results with your arm/cartridge pairing.
I suspect the pumping would be visually similar in your application, even if you swapped speakers (as long as all were reflex loaded). The reason is that reflex loaded woofers (mid bass in your case) unload below the port resonance, and for all full range speakers the pumping resonance is well below the port tuning resonance frequency. (Even if the pumping looked similar between 2 different speakers, pumping likely audibly degrades one speaker more than another, based on many variables.)
But suppose 2 persons employ the exact same arm/cartridge: person A's preamp/amp cuts off very low and makes high power in the bass (your OTL amps make more power @ 16 Ohm than 8 Ohm, the opposite of typical SS....also I don't know the speaker's impedance at pumping resonance); person B's preamp/power amp cuts off much higher and has minimal bass power. Person B's results may be fine, with little to no pumping, while person A's woofer pumping may audibly degrade performance. This could explain why your pumping is worse than another system with the same arm/cartridge.
Unfortunately I lost the link, but in the 70s IIRC, a European PhD. (I think a major European company like Bruel and Kjaer employed him) did a scientific paper on the subject of the ideal resonance range. He concluded that the ideal resonance frequency range is significantly higher than usually recommended. I use a Pioneer strain gauge cartridge, high compliance and very heavy. When I lowered the Rega RB300 arm resonance with a lighter counter weight, performance audibly improved by huge margin.
Long term wise a different arm/cartridge pairing may be the best solution. My strain gauge needs a true low mass arm, so I purchased a used Audio Technica AT-1100 with two wands. I shall add mass to one wand for use with a mono cartridge.
Your SMEV is in another universe v. my AT arm. The AT arm's effective mass is only about 7g. If/when finances allow, I plan to upgrade to the Moerch DP arm, which has 4 different wands of various mass from about 4g to 12g.
I always loved the looks of the SMEV, and the pro audio reviews were effusive in their praise of its performance. I'd buy one if it fit my needs. |
Subsonic/rumble filters are crap! You have to use a combination of things 1. record clamp 2. Cart/tonearm compliance 3. Isolation 4.overall setup... I still get woofer pumping but not nearly to the extent it was happening before. I find that using a turntable with a great clamping system (not just a puck or weight) helps a lot to avoid these effects and having the turntable on a piece of granite will be a big plus in helping kill the pumping. Also, finding the right cart/tonearm combo makes all the difference as well. At this level things really need to be in proper order (turntable setup) because things are so sensitive double check table for level, VTF, VTA, ect... Matt M |
These mismatches exist and you’ll never figure out why, nor will you ever fix it. Just enjoy the music. SME V is arguably the best tonearm in the world ever made. And Lyra makes superb high end MC cartridges, even if I’m not the biggest fan. Rumble filters not only ruin the bass, but suck the life out of the entire system. |
Same problem on 3 different Turntables. As a last resort, I bought a KAB rumble filter which I run via the tape loop. I do not notice any less bass and my system really swings. The filter even uses audiophile parts in it. New it was 179.00 but I saw one on here a couple of weeks ago for around 100.00 That, is a good deal. Regardless at what others will tell you, in my system it did not cut the quality of the bass or the deep bass. I can rattle the windows playing vinyl if I want. The sun has absolutely nothing to do with it. |
@o_holter Raul's suggestion that the cantilever suspension is failing could be an explanation, but the problem I have with that is the cartridge must be pretty new so this seems really unlikely. I looked at the specs of the ARC used in the review; it cuts off at 10Hz. Your preamp, if still the Io, is only specced to 20Hz (at which point its within 0.25db, suggesting that it can go down considerably further). So its an unknown as to whether that's an influence. Your amps are full power to 1 Hz. I use similar amps in my system at home, but I don't get the woofer pumping, although that was a problem when using the SME5 and has not come back while using the Triplanar (which I see was used in the article you linked, so this problem may not have shown up). A filter will introduce phase shift, and in a full range system such as yours, will be audible as less bass impact. So its probably best to solve this with elegance rather than brute force. |
o_holter Thanks Cleeds, but I don't agree. Please prove the case. Why does the arm kill the cartridge?The SME V is a terrific arm, but your woofer pumping problem simply suggests you've mounted the wrong phono cartridge to it. There's no reason to suffer such a problem, imo, and using a subsonic filter is treating the symptom rather than the disease. |
@o_holter : problem is that you just noted it and could be many thing. Even that speakers can't reproduce the frequency the woofer movements are affecting the quality level performance of what you are listening. Even a mistmatch impedances between phono stage and line stage could be ( for whatever reason. ) the source. The electronic very low bass oscilations are more frequently that what we can imagine. You have to make several tests about because exist no rules to make a sure diagnosis about. R. |
Dear @o_holter : Seems to me that you don’t have a real problem between your SME and the Lyra cartridge in the resonance frequency, you are safe there. What " alternatives " left other than that. Thinking " loud " some things could be stay happening: maybe to many playing hours in that cartridge that in some way affected the cartridge suspension or stylus tip or both, only for you can be sure re-check all the tonearm/cartridge set up parameters: VTF, VTA, overhang, offset angle, etc, etc., if you have a different platter mat you can try it and see what happens, same with the use of a platter clamp and if you are not using it then try one, could exist a very low bass oscilations developed in the phono stage so browse from somewhere and make a change of phono stage only for testing, you can try too to put some kind of damping material as bluetack between the cartridge top plate and the tonearm headshell, you can damp the SME arm wand with a elastic thread around t in helicoidal way ( in the past Sumiko marketed this kind of trap to damps the arm wands and made it a great improvement always. They used a ligthly elastic material. ). Could be another reasons that explain such behavior? could be but rigth now those are some things you have to check and see what happen. I assume that you did not any change in your system/roo but the same as always only that you do not noted before, rigth? Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. cut off below 10hz? as invictus said that will degrades the cartridge signal and in the other side you do not know at which bass frequency is the problem, seems to me more lower than 10 hz but as you I can't say for sure. |
Example - audio review - SME V works well with the Atlas http://www.tonepublications.com/review/review-lyra-atlas-cartridge/ |
atmasphere It might be that some of those debaters don’t have the bottom end bandwidth in their systems that yours has.That’s possible. It’s also possible that the debaters have absolutely no experience with the arm, or with your arm/cartridge combo. There are many self-proclaimed vinyl "experts" on the web who have no idea what they’re talking about. |
I agree with @atmasphere that cartridge compliance is almost certainly too high, although placing the turntable too close to your woofers may exacerbate the problem. Short of replacing the cartridge and/or counterweight, you might also see if you can lessen the problem with damping. You write that you "tried to strip my arm of extras, cleaned the damping trough," so it’s not clear that you’re using any damping at all. Is that correct? |
It is a long-term discussion - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-change-effective-mass-of-a-sme-v Atmasphere, isn’t your Triplanar arm mass higher than the SME V? I should get the arm mass down, to get the resonance frequency up - true? Increasing the arm mass is not difficult, decreasing it is the trick ;-) |
Atmasphere - you may be right. But Lyra does not warn, and web debate does not complain, using the Atlas on the SME V - so i wonder.It might be that some of those debaters don't have the bottom end bandwidth in their systems that yours has. I went from the SME5 to the Triplanar and that helped get rid of that problem in my system. The SME5 seemed like it was a higher mass arm than the Triplanar. |
Thanks, all! Atmasphere - you may be right. But Lyra does not warn, and web debate does not complain, using the Atlas on the SME V - so i wonder. Czarivey - good suggestion, but I doubt speakers or airborn feedback is the cause. Sounds (looks) much more "physical". Invictus - yes, I see what you mean, but investigating more, using my eyes, plus my finger on the woofer cone, and my ears - my feeling is, this pumping has messed up my musical image. The SME V has an effective mass of 10.5 g I think. The Atlas has a compliance of 12. The calculators I’ve tried pushes this into ca ok "green" 10 hz territorry. Am I overlooking something? Is the Atlas really ca 22? |
There’s nothing you can do. It's normal. SME V has already a very low effective mass of 9.5g. Lyra is a very heavy cartridge at almost 12 grams. It’s compliance is 12 at 100Hz, so probably 21-23 at 10Hz. Just live with it and when the stylus wears out get something else. Whatever you do, don't get a subsonic filter, unless of course you want to kill good sound. |
Your cartridge has a compliance value that is too high for your arm. You could reduce the effective mass. That can be done with different weights on the counterbalance (a heavier weight, closer to the fulcrum), lower mass arm or a lighter cartridge. If you are using a cartridge shim, I would replace it for one that is lighter. |
From a subsonic filter manufacturer: I initially set my Low Frequency Filter switch to flat until I discovered some very amazing facts.There exists a phenomenon called woofer pumping aka woofer excursion. Frequencies below 20Hz are usually not able to be reproduced, and with the exception of synthesizers and pipe organs, are not a wanted part of the audio spectrum. This is especially troublesome with phono systems, since many of the vinyl discs you treasure (or wish to transcribe to CD) will be warped to some degree. Any warp in a vinyl disc will cause large outputs in the subsonic region, typically well below 20Hz. For example, a 33 1/3 RPM album with a single warped section will create a signal in the pickup at 0.55 Hz (33.3 RPM / 60 = 0.555 Hz). This is a signal that will cause significant cone movement, but is undesirable in the extreme. Not only will vented subs be completely unable to handle such a signal linearly, but sealed subs will also be stressed. Large amounts of available power will be wasted trying to reproduce a signal that was never intended to be there in the first place. To be effective, a subsonic filter has to be very steep - this allows all wanted frequencies to get through, and rejects those that will only cause problems. Note that my Citation 1 Pre-Amp's subsonic filter is set at 15Hz. http://sound.westhost.com/project99.htm |