Why are my woofers pumping?

It happens regardless of the vinyl record, it seems. It is not mainly a matter of warp or off-centred records.

Thanks Cleeds - yes, I just tried with and without oil in the fluid damping trough on the arm. Made no difference.

It is a long-term discussion -
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-change-effective-mass-of-a-sme-v
Atmasphere, isn’t your Triplanar arm mass higher than the SME V?
I should get the arm mass down, to get the resonance frequency up - true?
Increasing the arm mass is not difficult, decreasing it is the trick ;-)

Thanks, all!
Atmasphere - you may be right. But Lyra does not warn, and web debate does not complain, using the Atlas on the SME V - so i wonder.
Czarivey - good suggestion, but I doubt speakers or airborn feedback is the cause. Sounds (looks) much more "physical".
Invictus - yes, I see what you mean, but investigating more, using my eyes, plus my finger on the woofer cone, and my ears - my feeling is, this pumping has messed up my musical image. The SME V has an effective mass of 10.5 g I think. The Atlas has a compliance of 12. The calculators I’ve tried pushes this into ca ok "green" 10 hz territorry. Am I overlooking something? Is the Atlas really ca 22?

From the A-gon opinions so far, here, such examples are not very interesting. It seems that the SME V can work OK with the Atlas, but it is not the ideal arm - ? I will look for other cart / arm combinations, when my current one runs out, and I have the money. But for now, I look for a fix.

I am happy with everything this combo does, except that it overarches in the low region, takes in too much. What about a simple cut off below 10 hz. Maybe a DIY. I use XLR cables. Suggestions, anyone?

Thanks Cleeds, but I don't agree. Please prove the case. Why does the arm kill the cartridge?

Example - audio review - SME V works well with the Atlas
http://www.tonepublications.com/review/review-lyra-atlas-cartridge/

Thanks, Raul. I will test some of your suggetions - platter mat - and report back. But like I said before, it seems very basically "physical" - it happens before eventual mechanical turntable etc problems.

Thanks, all! Great to get so much expertise input!

Cartridge is probably OK, not worn, no sign of wear, or mistracking. Like I said, it is not the Io phono stage, since when the stylus is lifted from the groove, the woofers stop pumping. I have tried a platter mat, and different weights – no difference.  Mechanical problems? Player is level, on a solid stone rack. Testing with sthetoscope and fingers: very silent. I do find that the shaft that holds the spindle could be tightened a bit, but I don’t think this relates to the pumping. Also, this is clearly not related to airborne feedback, position of speakers, damping, etc. Either, the woofers pump (stylus in the groove), or they don’t.  It happens on all kinds of records, is not dependent on warps or record problems.

My new diagnosis is this.

1) Like many of you have said, the Lyra Atlas /SME V combo can be non-optimal – the resonance is too low. Maybe, those who don’t hear problems, have a less resolving system at low Herz, or a subsonic filter. I think I have solved the numbers mystery. The Atlas specs say: “Compliance 12 x 10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz”. But the calculators I have found (e g at Vinylengine) measure compliance at 10Hz. Noone seems to know the exact conversion, but a rule of thumb is to multiply the 100Hz value with 1.5 or 2 to get the approximate 10Hz value. This means that the Atlas compliance is in the region 20 to 24 (not 12). Using this value in the calculators, I do get a too low resonance for the combo, around 7.5 Hz. This fits quite well with my Hifi News record lateral test result (6-7Hz). Since obviously people have used Lyra’s with similar compliance to the Atlas and SME V arms to great benefit, the correct term is probably “borderline low”. It can be good enough, or not, depending on the system.  

2) With this “borderline low” situation, the cart/arm picks up too much of what happens down in the subsonic region. I tested with a record at the end of the runout groove, just now. The usual situation where the LP is still going round at the end, with an audible pop for each revolution. The pop is clearly audible. The pumping is only or mainly visual. I think they interfer with each other (indicating that the pumping is no good for the sound). I also found that there is a rythm to the pumping. A pattern is repeated for each revolution, so if I change platter speed from 33 to 45 rpm, it happens faster. My conclusion: The cartridge picks up player rumble. This is not because the player is bad or poorly tuned (the Hanss T30 has received a lot of praise for its silent motors, combined magnetic/ceramic spindle system, speed stability, “inflappable” quality etc) it is just what you get when you turn on a flashlight or microphone down low, in the 5-7Hz region.  Assuming that the low resonance acts like a microphone (which fits my testing).

Agreements – or not? Am I overlooking something?

So – what to do?

Some of you say a filter works, others that it doesn’t. For me, with a great cart and arm, prone to run many years ahead, it could be worth trying. Other options (change cart, arm) are far more expensive. Suggestions welcome. There are small XLR filters, but the ones I’ve seen on the net are for microphone use, with too high cutoffs, 100 or 50Hz.

tzh21y - yes I think the same. Maybe even small things help, getting the resonance up. Stripping the arm of all extra mass and changing the counterweight position, like Atmasphere suggested.
Invictus, Almarg - I don’t think the player is the problem, behaves much better than my former VPI. The plinth is dead stable as it is. Belts - maybe new ones would be better, but this is not the main cause.
Somehow, the pumping has decreased a bit over the last days. Not sure which of my modifications that made the change.
The pumping is now very evident when I turn the volume up to 92-96 db from the listener position - measured when playing music. Going down to 88-90, where I usually listen, it is not so notable. I must test this more, trying to find "silent" vinyl grooves.
Atmasphere - I was not aware that loading could influence the resonance - ? I load the Atlas at 475 Ohm, but could go down to 100, have not tried yet.

Invictus005: I've tried your suggestion now, holding the plinth, but it makes no difference. This is a very heavy player (83 lbs). I used the runout on the Hifi News test record. And noticed, once more, that the woofer pumping is much reduced, compared to some days ago. In fact, it now looks/feels more like normal vibrations. And this is with the volume very loud (95+ db when playing music). So, where did the pumping go? I have a prolapsis so testing takes a bit of time. I wish I could tell you more exact what has caused the reduction of the problem. Besides reducing the effective mass, I did take off the platter, checked the spindle and moved the steel ball a little.

I also discovered that, indeed, "silent" record grooves are not the same. I have a UK original of Pink Floyd: Meddle, that plays amazing, especially side B (Echoes), with "HTM" in the deadwax, which means Harry T Moss "cutter extraordinaire at EMI UK" from what I read. In the silent-to-quiet opening of Echoes, the woofers pump a lot (on high volume). Is it a problem? Rather, I get the impression, this was intended by Mr Moss, to get the absolute best from the recording. As the music gets louder, I don't see the pumping (since the musical energy now grabs the woofers), although it may be there, in the background. This is what I suspect, and the reason I wanted to improve the situation in the first place. I think that this relates to a more "tense" or "disturbed" sound, and also, to a bit of break-up of the woofers at high volume (in sum - creating more listening fatigue). Btw the woofers are Acoustic Elegance TD10X (four of them in my system).

Testing again, with the HiFi News record side B band 6: Unmodulated groove (check residual system noise). Not much pumping even at unrealistic high volume. Even this track is not fully silent (what record is?) and the cone movement is in line with what I hear, indicating - I think - that indeed, the cartridge/arm combo has become less over-eager down at 5-6 Hz. I tested the runout on some other high quality records also - MFSL, ECM - same result.

There must be other Lyra cartridge / SME V owners out there, who have or don't have woofer pumping - ? Would be nice to hear from you! And maybe J Carr from Lyra could give a comment?

Atmasphere's advice reminded me of the old trick with the SME V to reduce effective mass: put the spring-loaded weight scale at zero, and then adjust the counterweight closer to the bearing of the arm. I use an electronic weight to get it exact at 1.72 g.

Based on Atmasphere's advice, I also tried higher loading, going from 475 ohm to 121 ohm (not so easy on the Io, changing a jumper at the back). Result? Musicality: great. "Echoes" sounds a bit sweeter, more mellow. I realize, I am moved by the music - always a good sign. Is it also a bit duller, rolled off, or contracted? Not sure. Maybe a little. I will have to try the middle setting (243 ohm). Testing with the Hifi news record, I did not find any change in the resonance frequency, it is still down at ca 7.5Hz.

More precisely: I can hear the test tone starting to quiver at 8Hz, increasing down to 7Hz, and then I can see the cantilever vibrating badly at 7-6Hz. So the effect of my various measures to raise the resonance seems rather small, and yet, the woofers have mainly stopped pumping. Why? Something else I did? Just changing the position of the player and spindle, a little? Is it the position of the sun (as was suggested)? The collective psyche of Audiogon members? I wish I could report some more hard facts. But whatever the case, I am mainly happy with the outcome. Even with NOS tubes in the first gain stage, the Io's noise level is mostly below the average groove noise level.  

Thanks, all! I think we can conclude that

1) the Atlas / SME V combo is very “receptive” in the lowest frequencies, and that in some resolving systems this may give unwanted effects like woofer pumping.

2) this is mainly a resonance problem, not a rumble or player noise problem (it does not change much, with different platter mats, damping or stabilizing the turntable, etc), and the first measure is to try to move the resonant frequency up - reduce the effective mass of the arm. This is only slightly possible on the SME V, but even small changes may help

3) the somewhat "over-eager" reception at the lowest frequencies of the Lyra/SME combo makes it even more important to correct any residual system noise, drive noise or rumble.

4) if the problem persists, try a rumble filter.

I will now try to decrease system noise – check the turntable, bearing, oil, feet, etc.

I wonder, even if the pumping is already reduced, would a filter be an idea anyway? Are my woofers straining too much, in the lowest bass? Is this prone to happen more, when the suspension of the cartridge is more worn?

Han_n - yes I will test this more. The "low cut" option may be what I lack.
Toddc2 - thanks, I have followed up.

I mailed an audio tech the other day, is it likely my woofers are getting worn out? Even if I don't hear clear problems? Answer: after five years no - it is not likely.

Some more pumping and woofer cone vibration testing today.

Pattern confirmed: the misbehaviour is less than before, but still noticeable on very high volume. There is some subsonic pumping (I can see it but not hear it).

The interesting thing is: it happens at certain intervals per revolution of the record (playing silent grooves between tracks). If I turn up speed to 45, the pattern is repeated, only faster. This seems to indicate that player rumble or drive problems are NOT the main issue. The platter on the Hanss T-30 is perfectly levelled and revolves smoothly – the pitch is steady, there is no sign of imbalance or distress, and almost no perceptible vibration noise touching or stetoscoping the plinth.

So if the player is mainly fine, the answer must be that the cart/arm combo picks up “vinyl noise”. Please correct me if I am wrong!

Could this “inherent vinyl noise” be most strong down around the resonance frequency, at ca 7 herz?

I am investigating different filter options, with helpful answers from KAB and Satoni, thanks to your advice. Since I have invested in a balanced system (from the phono stage to the amps) I am not so keen to go back to single ended connections from the phono to the preamp, although this would be the easiest (and cheapest) way to know if I am on the right course – if a rumble filter would help.  

Before going on, I need to tighten the center shaft (with the magnets) to the plinth on my Hanss T-30. It is fastened by four screws from the underside of the plinth. Does anyone know the type and dimension? The screws are very hard to see unless the player is placed on the side. Thats a heavy and somewhat risky job, so when I do it, I need to have the right tool. The Hanss manual does not specify the type of screw, but they have confirmed that the shaft should sit tight. ("shaft" maybe not the correct term - I mean the cylinder that the spindle sits in.)

Tighten the center shaft - meaning: the housing of the spindle.

cleeds - thank you, yes I bought the Atlas new and it shows no obvious signs of wear so far.  You are right, it may be a spindle / bearing problem. So I want to eliminate this factor. I have a friend with a T-60 who may help me fix it, soon.

Resonance - a red herring? If so, reducing effective mass on the SME V may not be a good idea (+1 to Atmasphere, and others, for setting me on this track).

Therefore I thought, OK, let me go back to a normal setup of the arm. I screwed the upper bridge back on and adjusted the counterweight back so the spring weight does the job alone, tuning it to the 1.72g recommended for the Atlas. Then I checked, using the runout on R L Jones The evening..., on the same very high volume level as before. Did I see more subsonic cone movement / pumping? NO. Slightly more energy, touching the cones? MAYBE but not much. What strikes me is that the "tone" of the vinyl noise has gone down a bit, it reaches lower in frequency. (Usually a good sign, says my audio intuition).

This test result does not rule out a "demanding" combo that can easily pick up too much lowest-low frequency. Maybe there is a herring. But its not red?

Since the problem is mainly gone, the thread should end soon. But it would be nice with a conclusion. I had woofer pumping, I changed some things in my system, and then the pumping (or most of it) went away. Why? Not clear.

Maybe the most likely reason - for now - is that I took out the platter and reinstalled it, with a little change of the ball and spindle position, making the drive work a bit more smoothly.

However my "audio intuition" is not quite satisfied with this explanation. The pumping error seems more like a yes/no proposition, as if you throw a switch - it is there, or not there - maybe mainly resonance-related (or even electric, e g could it even be influenced by static electricity?). So far I have not been able to reproduce the error. So I dont know exactly what makes the woofers start pumping. But it seems fairly clear that if it was only the drive, or player imperfections, the pumping / rumble problems would have been much more constant. 

The Atlas sounds real good, now, with 100 ohm loading (+1 to Atmasphere). Playing Nik Bartsch: Continuum (great sound) for example, but also older overlooked classics like Joe Walsh: No peace in the city. I love this cartridge. The woofers are energetic, yes, but I cannot see much pumping.
 
Toddc2 - this reminds me of all the tweaking I did with my VPI HW19 - every little bit helped - sand box - ceramic cones - name it. I will take you up on your kindly offer to try the filter, if the pumping persists.

krelldog - I see what you mean - and I also position my speakers quite far into the room. I think best practice is to move the whole stero system away from the wall behind the speakers but thats not very possible, in my case. Which filter did you try?

Correction: the Atlas has a 121 ohm load (not 100) - and sounds fine.
Replacing belts - yes, new ones ordered.
I will give the spindle a drop of oil, and fasten the spindle housing when I get the right tool.
BTW, reading up on the Hifi News test record shows that people find a lot of problems with it. On the lateral resonance test the actual test tones are different from those stated. I know from before that the record's anti-skating test is not good, in my case at least.
Some years ago Michael Fremer reviewed the Kuzma 4-point with his Lyra Titan i cartridge, pronouncing it the best arm he had heard so far. But using the calculators, resonance is down to ca 7.2 hz. Even more problematic than with the SME V (ca 7.5), since the 4-point weighs a bit more. Yet it wasn't a problem, to his ears.

Hi Raul, thanks, I reread your former post, where you wrote: "even at 100hz the Atlat compliance and effective mass puts the resonat frequency in a " solid " 8hz."  I get results closer to 7hz (arm mass 10.5, screws 0.5, cart 11.6g). It all depends on what we assume is the 10hz measured compliance (supposed to be x 1.5 to x 2 of the 100hz measure - 12 in the Atlas case). I have to assume a compliance of 17 to get above 8hz. I have found no exact Lyra specification. So this is really "blind", especially if we assume - as some do - that small variations in resonant frequency play a role, at the margins at least. I get confused by all the web debate on this, "fundamentalists" who say resonance is of key importance, some who say it varies with the type of arm, player, and what not, and some who simply dont believe in it (at least not with modern fairly "medium" cart/arm combos).

Likewise, I can find no objective measure of how much the resonance increases, by adjusting the static counterweight so it does all the lifting on the SME V, compared to using the dynamic spring mechanism (but a lot of debate about how the dynamic may sound best and be more kind to the cartridge). I do see the point of Lyra including light weight alu screws (among several types). Regardless of their problems, both the Hifi record test and the calculators indicate that the arm could be lighter.

So - back to the ears? Only listening can really be the judge? Test records not correct, calculators failing to take into account important parameters  - like the arm stiffness - you name it.   

Some of you have suggested that acoustic feedback may have played a role for my "woofing" or woofer pumping.

This is relevant not least in a four speaker system, like mine, where some drivers are pointed towards the back wall  (with the record player).

I tested a bit more, playing the new 2 x 45 rpm Jefferson Airplane: Volunteers. Volume: loud. This is a very good remaster, quality pressing, low vinyl noise. I hear this on the grooves between the tracks. When the tracks / music played, I used my stetoscope on top of the different parts of the player.

The results were interesting, more varied than I would have thought. The top of the maglev feet had next to no feedback, the sound was dead. The plinth, and also the motors, had more feedback, although I did not hear clearly "wrong" or exaggerated sound. I tried to "hold on" to the plinth, firmly, as suggested in the thread above. It made no difference.

I would like to test the platter and the record clamp, but since this rotates, I can’t do it with a stetoscope. Anyone knows of a phone app to test for rumble or noise, laying on the platter?

Since this thread is getting over and finished - the woofer pumping has stopped - I will only update if I find some clue, what the problem was. So far, I have not been able to recreate it. Maybe it was caused by a troubled spindle - not quite in place - or other drive problems, as suggested by vpi and others, above. Obviously, the slight leeway between the spindle housing and the plinth, which I need to tighten, may play a role, but in practice I don't think so, since due to the 10 kg platter weight, it settles quite solid anyway, and I cannot reproduce pumping by pushing the platter (or plinth).

I note an interesting thing, checking the player, and cleaning the belts, pulleys and platter. The Hanss uses two very silent motors, not vibrating much. But when I touch the top pulleys, slightly with fingertips, the vibrations are more notable. Sometimes it seems as if the motors develop a "trouble" position with the pulleys straining and vibrating. I can reduce the vibrations just by moving them a tiny bit. This is a behavior I recognize from my VPI HW-19. The motor / pulley does not quite "stall", but a combination of energies has made it stressed. Anyone who recognizes this pattern?

Thank you vpi. Always something new to learn.

Some more testing. The woofer pumping problem is still there, maybe a bit reduced, but not fully solved (sorry for too general statements above - I thought it was solved). It is very dependent on the record - some LPs have more, some have less. I am investigating whether a filter could be an idea, using a laptop and a sound card to see what goes on in the low hz region (through the program Audacity).

vpi, and others - two camps in this thread, "fix the cause" or "fix the problem" - if I want to fix the cause, and change the tonearm, keeping the Atlas, although I dont have the financing to do it now - what would be a good match, with a resonance around 10 hz? That sounds good with the cart?

One more test. Changing the connectors from the Aesthetix Io phono stage to the Einstein preamp from balanced to single-ended. Result; much less woofing with single-ended. But much poorer sound too! More flat, congested, less involving. Even when I turn the volume up, to get the equivalent decibel level (which I have to do, for the single-ended connection), there is less "here-ness" to the music. I have a semi-balanced phono stage - balanced from the second amplification section through the output. The balanced outputs sound way better than the SE / RCA outputs. Conclusion: a single ended filter like the KAB probably will not work for me. Running the phono signal single ended, or through a single ended tape loop, will degrade it.
Cables used for testing: 1) balanced - JPS Superconductor 3 (very good xlr cable); 2) single ended - Kimber KCAG (very good in some applications but not here).

Status: I enjoy my SME V / Atlas combo, even with some woofer pumping and - maybe - possible distortion. Yesterday I tested Kula Shaker: K2, on LP vs Tidal digital. Result: digital = no clear woofing (as before), but poorer sound. Distortion - some, very evident in loud music passages, from both sources, but overall more "grunge" in the digital. The contest was a bit more even, than I remember - analog does not totally outcompete digital, but still, no doubt. I should probably consider a better DAC. But if it has real "grunt" (like the Aesthetix Io) maybe this includes some woofer pumping ;-  If you cut low frequency it easily hurts ambience, overtones, etc. I think this is why Pink Floyd's Echoes has woofer pumping. Everything down below is recorded. The vinyl is taxed to the maximum. You can hear this deeper tonality also in the high frequencies (Richard Wright playing light organ touches). With today's resolving systems, we are able to reproduce such pioneer enginering efforts and should be grateful for it.

stereo5: I don't diss the KAB. I am only saying, single-ended cables from my balanced phono stage to my balanced preamp sound much poorer in my system, compared to balanced cables. So a filter, to become a plausible option, would have to be balanced. The KAB, in the current configuration, is only single-ended (RCA connectors). OK?

I have been in contact with KAB and another filter maker suggested earlier in this thread. They have responded very well and informatively. 

Two camps appear: the "purist" who say: fix the problem, and the "lowly ones" (plebeians) who suggest a filter "to be done with it".

Pink Floyd LPs  - a  quick test of woofer pumping
1 The original LPs from the first years, not so much, deep sound is not recorded.
2 Notably more deep sound - increased pumping - overall sound is better - step by step - on Atom heart mother, and early 70s LPs - reaching a climax on Meddle
3 Less woofer pumping but also somewhat limited, anemic sound on my remasters of Dark side of the moon  (i dont have the original here)

I already know that using single ended outputs from my phono stage curbs the pumping compared to using balanced outputs. But it also sounds much poorer! So to give the KAB a fair chance it would need an xlr to rca adapter (thanks, stereo5). Not sure if an additional adapter is needed to the Einstein preamp it seems xlr and rca inputs sound the same.

Thank you miner42 and stereo5. It may take some time, but i wish to try your suggestions. Although changing the arm or the cart might be optimal, no one so far knows for sure what works best in my system. 

Listening to vinyl rips from main system, on my cottage system. No pumping of course - the Aurum Cantus speakers only go down to 40 hz or so. So music is limited but it also sounds nicely peaceful. No harm done - sins of omission not commision in the bass.

I think beyond the low cart-arm resonance we need to add the very fullscale speaker system in my main system. Four speaker Audiokinesis. Lots of woofer power. - Maybe other speakers is why some users and reviewers dont experience much problem.

Thanks Atmasphere - yes the low reach of the amps in combo with the speakers  may play a role. But with the Triplanar you dont have the problem. Do you know the resonance of your arm cart combo?

Lathes - low frequency - ok - but if it happens between tracks why not also within them? I can see the pumping between tracks on my 'energetic' Lps. Not much within the tracks but i think this is because the music energy takes over the woofer. It does not show much but is still there. Giving more stress in the music. Just my suspicion.

Since degree of pumping varies with the LP and repeats precisely with the record's revolution, drive problems probably is not much involved - confirmed by cleaning belts and adjusting the player - no big difference.

I notice that Pink Floyd Echoes recorded from the LP on my system pumps the woofers also on my cottage system! 

I am mystified. Why do i see woofer pumping playing Echoes on my small cottage system which is 6db down at 42hz and probably not audible below ca 38hz? All hail to DSD? I play a rip / recording of the same original vinyl that gives pumping in the main system. Recorded in DSD on Tascam Da3000. Playback by the little Fiio x3 player, which does native DSD, to a Ming Da integrated tube amp and Aurum Cantus Leisure 3 SE speakers. All very good but i seriously doubt if this system is capable of doing anything down at 7hz where my cart-arm resonance problems are.

Handymann - much appreciated and relevant. I did a lot of platform and feet mods with my Vpi Hw19 to good effect but mods have so far little effect on the Hanss t30 with its maglev feet. And - my vinyl recordings are made with the main speakers silent or very subdued. So I doubt acoustic feedback is the main culprit in this case.

The woofers on the Aurums are smaller but the behavior is similar to the Audiokinesis woofers. Some sound related vibrations but also pumping in and out. Yet I dont hear this movement at least not directly. Using my fingertips there is energic quick vibration that I hear but also a slower pumping that i dont hear. 

 Listening more, the experimental nature of Echoes and the whole Meddle album shines through. In other words it may well be that they experimented also in the low frequency range. They used Shepard tones and invented seagull squeals, I read. It is one "flowing" album and the silences between the tracks are not just silence but e g wind blowing too like at the start.So it is maybe a quite special case.

It seems that to use the single ended Kab filter from the balanced outputs of my phono stage (having tested that these sound better than the single ended outputs) I will also need a converter box. It becomes complicated.  If KAB was next door of course I would have tried it by now, but it means shipping across the Atlantic and maybe taxes just to have a try. Kevin at KAB has been helpful.

Audiotomb - very interesting. I think my arm floats fine but will check when i get home. The HFN record lateral test shows very visible and sonic resonance ca 7hz while the vertical test is much less obvious (the test tone warbles a bit between ca 10 to 5hz).

"If you have rumble problems, get a light feather!" Who said this hobby was boring?

Update: situation in the system at the cottage seems like with the main system at home. Vinyl records including DSD recordings of these made by the same cart-arm-phono-preamp in the main system, create pumping, more or less. Its not just Meddle, but e g Glass and Shankar too and Sade: Love is... When I play digital from the Oppo player I have here - no pumping so far at least, testing SACD Moody Blues: On the threshold, and CD Spirit: Sardonicus.

There is pumping with vinyl but maybe it disturbs less with the smaller speakers and less linear amp here. I also note that there are more energetic vibration from the vinyl (slightly touching the cones) compared to the sacd and cd. My ears tell me I prefer vinyl - this is why i bother to make recordings. 

I have been thinking: the main culprit is the cart-arm combo's low resonance. But is it? Much is in the blue, since the HFN test record is known to be somewhat problematical (e g dont use it to set antiskating), calculators may be crude and we dont even know the exact cu at 10hz for the Lyra. It is 12 at 100 so MAYBE 18 at 10. Or 20 or 22. These numbers make a difference in the calculators.

The basic idea is that the pumping would stop if I change to a lower compliance cartridge - or to an arm with less effective mass. Then the HFN test would presumably show a resonance at ca 10hz - where we want it.

The Kuzma 4point is three grams more mass than the SME V. It should have even more resonance problems than mine. Yet Michael Fremer declared the 4point/Lyra combo so good he could not get over it. It seems that the Atlas sounds good with more arms than the calculators and test record would suggest.

Ct0517 you are right - i’ve installed two beams in the cellar under the rack - I hammered them into place, a horizontal plank on top of each - it makes a lot of difference - i can jump in front of the player without mistracking. This, and separate el to the system, are among my "no looking back" mods / tweaks.

Testing DSD recordings made by the same cart-arm combo on a different player, the VPI HW19, some years ago. Not quite the same, since the recording was made with the Lyra titan i cart, not the Atlas. Yet they have the same compliance and should behave fairly equal.

Is there woofer pumping? Yes some. A bit less? Maybe, not sure yet. The jury is out.

Listening to my older recordings, I hear a poorer recording and flatter, more restricted sound than with my current Tascam DA-3000 recordings (and direct vinyl playback). Not strange, these recordings were made by the little Korg MR-1, punching above its class, but still limited, with single ended connections while I now go balanced, to the Tascam. My general impression is: when I went from standard DSD recording (Korg MR-1) to double speed DSD (Tascam DA-3000) I clearly got better sound and more bass. But maybe a bit more woofer pumping too? I am not sure. I will have to check this out.

Back home, some more testing on main system:

Audiotomb suggested an arm bearing test. I set the SME V so that the arm floats, zero weight and zero anti-skate, can I lift it with a light feather? Yes. Movement is vertical, not slanted? Yes. Can I drop a 1 cm square piece of paper on the top of the cart, and the arm sinks? Yes. Can I blow the arm vertical and lateral? Yes. Can I  wiggle the arm base, is there any slack? No. Conclusion: arm bearings probably OK.

Stingreen - support is a heavy stone rack, but sure, I can try a wedge.

Atmasphere - I guess you mean that there could be a turntable issue even if the pumping is more evident on some LPs than others. I have ordered the tool to tighten the bearing shaft/housing on the Hanss, but have not received it yet. So I have no way to check directly. Come to think of it, I could try to find some DSD recordings made with the same cart and arm, on the VPI HW19 player that I used before - this should clarify the issue. If it is a turntable issue, I shouldn't have pumping on recordings from the VPI - right? (But my inner audiophile says: if things were that simple...)

Yes - or simply, the vinyl groove noise...

Conclusion so far - maybe, just, live with it, until the next cart change.
Facts:
- Pumping carried over to the secondary system - clearly not amp or speaker dependent (digital LP recordings).
- Arm bearing, turntable, drive, belts etc - no indication of misbehaviour
- Maybe the leeway in the Hanss bearing plays a role, I will know soon when I get the tool to tighten it (i doubt it makes much of a diff, based on testing so far) - including: if the Hanss misbehaves, why do I see pumping also on my VPI HW19 recordings - ?
- Getting a balanced filter seems difficult. E g the KAB single ended filter would need an extra box. This combo (or cludge) would probably not be good for sound quality, compared to direct balanced.
- I suspect that a rumble filter, properly installed (in the phono stage) might help my sound.
- I see woofer pumping clealry before or between the music tracks on the LP, with the stylus in the groove. This goes on more or less, depending on the LP. The pumping is clearly related to the revolution of the record, it repeats once per cycle.
- When the music is playing and the stylus in working within the music track, I don’t see much pumping. I suspect that this is because the woofer is now in the grip of the musical energetic vibrations.
- However, it may be that the woofers are still made to "work" down below in ways not optimal to the sound. In simple terms, more stress, less peace. Not sure.
- I have a feeling that woofer pumping is related to more listening fatigue. But I am not sure. Testing different records, I also find a bit of the opposite rule - pumping is related to good, involving sound.
- If I had serious "underlying pumping problems" with analog/vinyl, I would have selected the digital source, in my system (since digital music shows no pumping). Yet that’s not the case. Digital music sounds much poorer in my system. More harsh and flat - and not much more "peaceful". Although this may also be due to the fact that my analog chain is better than my digital chain.

Back testing my cottage system playing SACDs. System is good enough to show the considerable step up from CD sound. Almost as good as my vinyl rips. And like before - with digital sources i see no pumping.

Back home testing woofer pumping on Pink Floyd: The Wall, the dreaded thing happens, my neighbour (house is vertically divided) rings my door bell and asks me to turn it down PLEASE. It happened after I played the "shotgun" drum/bass effects in the intro - "there were certain teachers"...Another brick in the wall. Volume close to the wall to the neighbour maybe 92db.
Since it was early evening, not late at night, I went over to him, rang his door bell, and protested. They have lived there for 4-5 years and not complained before. The dividing wall is sturdy cement you took away some isolation. Etc. But - well - I guess, no more woofer testing, at the moment.
I HATE the feeling that my music "bothers" someone else - don't know about you.
 

Atmasphere - thanks for hanging on, what would A-gon do without such good advisors.

Today I received the millimeter version tool that should help tighten the housing of the Hanss bearing. When I get my friend over we will turn the whole heavy player on its side and then try to tighten it. We will also give the bearing a bit more oil - this should be just thin "sewing machine oil", says some audo importers over here - Hanss does not specify.

My suspicion is: it won't make much of a difference. But we'll see.

My short summary, so far.
Vinyl rips from my main rig, made on my DSD recorders, played back at my modest cottage system, are able to reproduce subsonic pumping. When I play digital including advanced digital at the cottage system - SACD - there is no such pumping. With vinyl yes, some pumping, varying with the record.
This seems very similar to my findings, regarding my main system at home.
The pumping seems to happen with the cart-arm combo regardless of the player (VPI vs Hanss) - although I have not checked this much.