Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
"Just remember my previous post…data errors don’t happen in 1-meter, jitter is a non issue because of reclocking, and noise doesn’t impact the successful retrieval of a data stream…that’s the whole advantage of digital!"
I am not an expert on digital signal transmission, as I avoid it by using a one-box solution, but, either way, it has little to do with analog signal transmission, particularly with long runs of speaker wire, subject to time smearing of the audio signal as well as rejection of RF/EMI artifacts.
They are all different! I just got a pair of well reviewed budget cable , pro audio type, to compare with the ones I had been using I have just remembered that they were Mogami. I did hear a big difference even though I hoped I would not ! Siltech [?] on eBay was what I had been using. I have been a dealer for the things I like. I don't like them because I sold them. All in the past anyway. I would go with good but not stupid price. I have found that silver does sound different. I like solid silver for my jumper wire , Cardas for speaker wire and VDH First for interconnects. It is spark plug wire or something. But who am I to tell you what to use as the Pope would say if he were here? Trust your ears. I know some people who can tell no difference between things that are obvious to me. One keeps telling me that there IS no difference. I am sure I could tell the difference if someone wanted to set up a test but I can't do it by myself. Just enjoy and don't get OCD on yourself. If you can't tell then you have saved money. I have very good gear. A friend with VERY expensive gear just listened to my two amps. One is a CJ350 and the other is a Gamut 200. This was on Gamut L5s. I thought that they sounded quite different but both good and he thought that the CJ was clearly better. If I still had my health I would be changing them in and out but I can't lift them any more. Fun to play with but listing is better. Just relax and let the music carry you away. Thus endith the rant!
This is covered well at <roger-russell.com>. Short version : expensive speaker wires are just good marketing. Most copper wire is pure. Bigger wire s better due to line loss. Keep connections tight. I use low voltage landscaping wire from Lowes...lots of copper and good insulation . I have been at this since 1967 and do own stereos that costs as much as a nice new car. I maybe wrong but have no excuses.
Leads from phono cartridge are a different story. I just use stock in SME and VPI. work fine. So does wire in old Dual 1019 come to think of it.
To: OPPO BDP-105 MIT XLR interconnect ($500 model) Proceed Amp2 150W 14AWG cheapo speaker wire NHT VT1.4 speakers
What stayed the same: the room: 18’W x 24’L x 12’H, with the speakers on the 18’ wall. A nice room for two-channel audio.
When I was building the high-end system, I definitely noticed a significant improvement between the Shunyata interconnects and a few others that I tried at the time. So in that sense, I can say that cables matter. However, in my new, much cheaper system, I’m amazed at what the Proceed/NHT combo can do for under $1000 (used). I’m perfectly happy with the cheapo speaker wires and have no plan to upgrade.
Good analogy paieta. I can see both sides, but there IS both sides. To say that cables do not matter is to say that one is satisfied with compromises. Nothing at all wrong with that as long as it is acknowledged and understood.
I love listening to 60’s/70’s/80’s rock on my vintage system with Monster 12 gauge speaker wire and a Pioneer 10-band EQ. It sounds awesome. But when it comes to reproducing music with the intent of creating realism, I hold no pretenses as to its limitations.
Once I was at my dealer and we made tests with some interconnects and speaker cables of the same company we started with their cheapest one and ended with the most expensive one and the results of this test was very clear the expensive ones were much better ,the difference between the most cheap cable to the most expensive one was like a day and night.
IMO it’s wrong to jump to a conclusion that there is no difference between cables just because a dumb dealer that clearly doesn’t have a clue what he is selling and just want to make $$$ .
There is definitely differences between different cables and even between different lengths of the same cable. That does not however necessarily mean that the more expensive cable always sound better in a given system when compared to a cheaper one. It does not need to be "the shorter the better" either as the stability of the amp is dependent on the impedance of the load. In the worst case scenario using inappropriate cables can even turn your amp into a powerful high frequency oscillator blowing it and/or your speakers to smithereens. In particular the Rotel RB-890 is prone to spontaneously self destruct in this way but almost any amp can be turned into an oscillator by connecting an unsuitable load.
I have done a lot of installations and have found that any good 2.5mm2 (AWG13) OFC speaker cable with (preferably) PE insulation works well for general purposes up to at least 30m (100'). It's a good compromise between performance and price. Thinner cables restrict the bass and thicker is not so much better that it justifies the higher cost.
For serious HiFi where one has spent $10K+ on amp and speakers one should of course consider spending a little bit more on cables but always on a try-before-you-buy basis. Just because one cable is more costly to manufacture than another it does not automatically make your system sound better.
It can, in fact, even make it sound terrible! One must always try cables out and then (only if they sound better, of course) ask oneself this question: Is this improvement worth the higher price? If the new cables you are testing are cheaper it's an easy decision: Keep them and sell your old overpriced cables to some sucker…
Don't EVER take it for granted that a higher price is equal to better quality! The HiFi-industry is littered with overpriced products and some of them are just crap. I don't want to mention any brands but I have compared expensive IC-cables to cheap ones and found the cheaper to be better as well as a CD-player costing $6K sounding truly awful when compared to one costing only $2K so beware that there are people out there trying to rip you off. That's the way it is and you have to use your ears and common sense to decide who is gonna get your hard-earned money.
Dizzy Gillespie once said: "If it sounds good it is good..." His concern was the music, not the equipment used to record it! He was of course right! What the musicians are playing is far more important than "the sound" of different cables, amps etc… A sobering thought! :-)
Depends om your system too. I can hear the difference between cables . "But" does not justify the price !! My research has taught me that basic cables from , Purist , Kimber, wireworld . Work fine . Yes the 10,000 buck Nordest ribbin speaker cable sound very nice indeed .Looks pretty to . Who has that type of money today. My Christmas is donated 200 bucks to the Church for there soup kitchen . Not making China rich . I have old pair of JBL 4311 speakers 40 bucks at a garage sale , nad cd player . about to buy a tube amp any suggestions 1 and 3 grand ?
Hi grannyring, I am using mine in my second system unmodified. I was going to have it modified, but read online a number of people who say the mods change the sound, but that whether it is for the better is subjective.
My go-to audio electrician tipped the scale towards not modding.
I am sure that the Cary sounds better, there always will be something.
I like the ST70 and MK4 Dyna monos a lot and have had and modded both. I also modded the Cary Rocket 88r and it really is very special. When I say mod I am referring to better parts quality and replacing suspect parts due to age.
The Cary can be had for $1000 -$1200 used and is a superb value. The Dynaco amps were a lot of fun for sure. I liked the MK 4 monos a little more than the ST70, but both were nice.
I haven't read every post here, but one thing I've learned after spending the first half of my life as a musician and being conservatory trained is to never assume someone else cannot hear something just because you can't. OTOH, I congratulate you for deciding with your own ears as opposed to taking someone else's opinion. If you cannot hear the value in owning a more expensive component, you would be quite foolish to purchase it.
Kraftsound, thanks for the leveling this thread dearly needed. One point you made re: "stability of amp dependent on the impedance of the load" has been made before and should be used in every thread on cables. Not every cable can fulfill the need when there are so many variables involved.
Everyone should just use common sense and experiment. I've kept most of the cables I've ever bought and occasionally try them out whenever I change something in the equation (amp, speaker, tone controls, etc.) and use that as a guide.
Just a few days ago I stated, earlier in this thread, that the Zu Event mk1 speaker cables sounded the best in my system. My newish speakers gave me a Dickens of a time as the Accuton drivers are a bear to break in. I finally gave up after settling on the Zu cables and just yesterday, turned the treble boost all the way up on my Marantz and used the Ayre test CD to burn in the tweeter, cables and circuits at that setting. Now I was getting somewhere (all those variables).
It resulted in a much more relaxed treble as opposed to a boosted sound. The burn in helped tremendously. Not being satisfied, I tried some Tempo Electric speaker cables I had since they worked so well when I had the Tonian Labs TL-D1s. Viola! Treble extension is even better extended and defined without any sibilance. Mids are purer and not as forward and bass is better defined with lessened rear port emphasis in the room.
The Tempo Electric cables are just plain old 9 gauge, 4 nines, soft annealed, solid silver core cables in a larger gauge teflon jacket making air the primary dielectric. The sound I'm getting is so much closer to that of the Tonians that I'm somewhat shocked. That, and the price was about $280 back when I got them.
Everything is system dependent and there are no shortcuts. If one is truly into this hobby, then one must be open to and explore all possible avenues available to them.
Since it's too late to edit my post, I'd like to correct the gauge of the Tempo Electric speaker wire. It's actually 14 gauge wire in a 9 gauge jacket.
Ah yes. Another thread where a cable hater tricks somebody and then goes online to brag about it. Threads like this are a waste of time. Nobody on either side is going to change their minds.
The actual test conducted is unclear, but it seems that the OP wanted the salesperson to listen and compare the cables, and if he could detect differences, then the OP would spend another 10 grand on cables. Meanwhile, he lied to the person and tricked him.
If one really wants to test speaker cables, etc., all you have to do is connect the right channel with your cheapo cables and the left with the expensive stuff, then hear for yourself.
Other issues may prevent performance levels, as mentioned above, but generally speaking the differences will present themselves. Whether one can hear them is another thing, not all people hear or process sound waves the same. People who can't even sing a not on key may not be trustworthy judges of sound quality.
@dlcockrum So Dave, about that ocean front property in Arizona, can you PM me some pics, and name your price? I'm interested for sure, but am curious as to the average summer snow levels. Will a shovel suffice, or will I need a plow truck?? Will you toss in some of that awesome Radio Shack 12 ga. if we close the deal?
@dlcockrum Dave, I find it quite ironic that grubbs joined the forum the next day after this thread started and this is his first response. Coming up out of the earth seems to cause an unusual odor.
@213runnin "Another thread where a cable hater tricks somebody and then goes online to brag about it."
The OP has tricked everyone that responded to take a position for either side, believers and non-believers. It’s obvious that the OP and his responses are bogus. I still find it hard to believe so many fell into his trap.
One needs to read or reread the OP post and think about it. Do you really think that chain of events actually happened? If you do, contact Dave about his property. Also, notice the original poster has been silent since his 4th or last post, 3 1/2 hours after his first, FIVE days ago. This is classic troll behavior and has worked as designed. Maybe 200 posts will be reached before the next year on this fascinating topic!
Okay, dill. Just want to clear up that I never offered any property at any time. In fact, just the opposite: "Fire Bad." I detest those types of posts.
IMO you are correct it's a ripoff. Really the only way I could see it making a difference is if you had a ridiculous sound system to go with the expensive cables, but really even then I highly doubt you'd hear a difference. The human ear just isn't capable and everyones ears are different. Now I would argue that test equipment might be able to decent the sonic differences. This topic has been discussed to length so many times but I always like to see people talk about it.
islandsound 1 posts IMO you are correct it's a ripoff. Really the only way I could see it making a difference is if you had a ridiculous sound system to go with the expensive cables, but really even then I highly doubt you'd hear a difference. The human ear just isn't capable and everyones ears are different. Now I would argue that test equipment might be able to decent the sonic differences. This topic has been discussed to length so many times but I always like to see people talk about it.
I bet Mr. Spock could hear the difference.
There are many perfectly good reasons why some people can't hear differences between cables. Shall we explore them?
I'm in the pro audio concert END of things... you can bet your bones speaker cables make a difference. Esp in the LFs. Of course runs are longer and power amp ratings are much higher.
In home hi-fi/audiophile-land, I've definitely noticed and have made upgrade differences mainly with interconnects and AC power quality. Speaker cables not so much -- especially w short runs.
Years ago I tried the 'blind test' with some interconnects with my wife, who knew my system, but by no means has a golden ear. I chose her as the average listener (and because women generally have more sensitive ears esp in the HF range). I was given these 1M $1200 balanced XLR Transparent Audio interconnect cables to try from a hi-fi dealer w time correction lumps on them. So I put them to the test vs my custom-made relatively inexpensive 1M $150 Monster M1000i cables. We spend about an hour swapping back and forth. We both DEFINITLY noticed a difference (SACD head end/Emm Labs/Speakers Genelec). Lo and behold (without knowing which was which) she liked the Monster cable at a fraction of the price. I too preferred the Monster across all classical, rock n roll, electronic and acoustic tracks.
The discovery was was quite an eye-opener. First that we COULD definitely tell the difference. Second that the more expen$ive cables didn't necessarily translate to better quality -- at least for us. Lasty, you can imagine she (and I) were both pleasantly relieved that the high priced cables didn't sound better. Especially since I have a 6-channel (spec) hi-res system! Whew.
I'd say if your're looking for ways to improve your system, look first to your room and your speaker placement/treatment, etc. In my professional studio experience (as a mix engineer) this will yield the highest level of improvement per dollar spent. Lots of great DIY sound trap articles out there including one by Ethan Wiener's 'Build a Better Bass Trap" I highly recommend.
The other way to improve you system sound is proper AC to your gear. I made a SIGNIFICANT improvement by running dedicated 10-Guage AC power (220 in my case) directly from my home breaker panel. The most noticeable difference was in the low frequency transients. The biggest shocker of all however was the investment in a pro-grade conditioner. And by pro-grade, I don't mean Moster or Furman. I'm talking recording/mastering studio grade. Equitech is the finest in my experience. It was downright scary what a difference this made! The soundstage opened up big time and the detail in the music was glaringing improved (Model 5Q).
Finally I'd say the best thing to do is to trust your ears. Use familiar content and isolate as much as you can the gear you're elaluating. Simply put. Listen for yourself!
...late feedback to dlcockrum's comment 12/29 "What drugs are you on?"...
None, frankly....quite sober, perhaps unfortunately. Anyone who can't tolerate some humour with regard to the subject's extremism does get my apologies for my admittedly extreme response and attempt at poking the 'funnybone'. If I missed and you felt poked in the eyes, well gee whiz.
Speaking of drugs, it all seems to edge into the 'placebo effect'. "If I do this, it's bound to make it better." Magnets? Propping the cables off the floor with stands? Exotic materials, combined in esoteric ways? Really?!
There's similar products that come and go out there. Ultrasonic insect repellers....products that promise amazing mileage if attached to your car....copper infused socks that'll make you feel light on your feet...
I just watch it all come 'n go, and remember P.T. Barnum's dictum. And Robin William's reprise of it....
If you think it makes it better, well, OK. Just not in my experience. I can hear the difference between speakers....cables, no. Maybe I'm just tone deaf or have some serious defect in my hearing. Or maybe I just haven't had enough of the Kool-Aid yet....
What ever makes you happy is cool. Have at it.... I'm happy with my basic 'junk'. I thought that was the point...being happy, listening to the music as opposed to the equipment. I guess I'm just a simpleton in the midst of the anointed.
Ignorance is bliss. The last election cycle just proved that. And it seems to be epidemic as to how divided we're becoming, and the lamentable lack of tolerance on differences in one's opinions vs. another's is becoming the new standard. "My way or the highway." You want a friend? Get a pet.
Even at the level of my old Jorma Prime sc’s ($18k, 2.0mtrs pair) I immediately noticed a substantial improvement upgrading to Jorma Statement sc’s ($28k, 2.0mtrs pair). So yes I think to a certain extent you get what you pay for.
Jafant, It will be a good year indeed if Audiolatrine continues to stick to his shameless shilling ’blog’ as Taralabs describe it & stay out of intelligent discussions like this ;)
Hello all, I’m recusing myself from this discussion. I actually use no cables, interconnects or power cords, a solution that neatly avoids the myriad pitfalls associated with ANY cables and power cords. So, I’m leaving this particular thread to those with dogs in this fight. My battery based solution also neatly avoids the myriad issues related to house AC power, AC ground, fuses, big ol capacitors and toxic transformers, etc. Best of luck to all.
Having expensive equipment is not a guarantee of better sound for an individual. I have replaced expensive cables with less expensive cables because of interaction between components once the new cabling was in the system. Recently, I was going to replace my DAC but tried the AntiCables Level 5 speaker cables. Those cables gave me the sound which I was seeking and saved me 50% of the cost for replacing my present DAC. Judging the sound of audio equipment is a very personal choice. I have heard a $300k system that had no "wow" factor for me, but for someone else, it was probably a mind-blower. Many manufacturers offer a 30 day trial period so I highly recommend that sautan904 use that method to compare various cabling options to find what appeals to his ears.
Having expensive equipment is not a guarantee of better sound for an individual. I have replaced expensive cables with less expensive cables because of interaction between components once the new cabling was in the system. Recently, I was going to replace my DAC but tried the AntiCables Level 5 speaker cables. Those cables gave me the sound which I was seeking and saved me 50% of the cost for replacing my present DAC. Judging the sound of audio equipment is a very personal choice. I have heard a $300k system that had no "wow" factor for me, but for someone else, it was probably a mind-blower. Many manufacturers offer a 30 day trial period so I highly recommend that sautan904 use that method to compare various cabling options to find what appeals to his ears based upon his system components.
Put things in perspective Sautan a ounce of silver is just shy of $16.00 per ounce.Nordost's flagship wires start at $19,999 for a one meter pair and they are silver plated with the most plating than the mere $5k line.
Happy New Year All, I really wish 14AWG alone could get you there. If thats what sounds good to you then stick with it. It would definately would have made my life alot easier and less expensive. It took me a while to wrap my mind about spending $$$ for cables. These companies I have found to be worth the squeeze - investment. www.hb-cable-design.com/ www.stage3concepts.com/ www.tonarm.ch/
Here is a simple experiment for those who don't believe speaker cables make a difference (or those who are unsure how much). 1) Find a telephone or cat cable that you are not using and willing to destroy. Take it apart so that you have two sets of twisted pairs (i.e. 4 single wires). 2) Connect them to replace your speaker cables using a single wire for each connection. Best to use the coloured wires as positive and the white wires as negative so you don't mix them up. 3) Play music. 4) Now remove your new telephone wire speaker cables and replace them with what you think are the best speaker cables you have in the house. 5) Play music.
The difference should be dramatic and very clearly demonstrate that "cables" do make a difference. If you cannot easily hear a difference, you need to either change your system (or the weak link in your system) or replace your ears. I would expect that somewhere over 90% of the people on this forum would find the difference between cables stark and obvious. It is simple physics, the telephone wire will be unable to properly carry the audio signal, particularly the low frequencies.
Now that we have established that cables absolutely DO make a difference, the next question is how much difference is there between proper basic cables and the "expensive" stuff. It is the real question that we are asking.
From my experience, one of the easiest ways to compare is to use a well recorded drum track. Perhaps use a Japanese Taiko drum album or similar Chinese drums. Make sure they include the big, deep sounding drums with plenty of chance to listen to the drum harmonics between beats. Its easy to listen for the following:
A) After a drum strike, those big drums should have harmonics that last several seconds, depending on recording and drums, at least 4-5 seconds. B) Listen to the big drums in particular. Do they sound like flabby farts, or can you visualize how tight the drum skins are. With a good system (especially full-range), the difference between cables will be clearly evident.
With cables that are a good match for your system, you will instantly see the drums as much as hear them. It will be very engaging, you will be eagerly anticipating the next strike. If the cables do not perform well, the drums will sound sloppy and you will quickly get bored. It's like they forgot to tighten the drum skins.
It is actually quite amazing how much difference the cables can make. It can really transform a good, but non musical system into a magical sounding system.
As many others here have said, the price of the cables has only some influence on the quality. The most important aspect is system matching. As a one time cable agnostic, I wasted much time and money on components, when my speaker cables were the weak link all along. Until I replaced them with something better, I was only spinning my wheels. When I first discovered the difference it was revelatory!
I like that you recommend using a good quality drum recording. I have a recording of Tony Manaisian's that's an extremely well done 16 bit demo using no equalization that does exactly what you describe. It's a jazz combo with lots of percussion techniques. It's now one of my go to recordings to evaluate my system.
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