Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?


I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.

Here is how I found out.

After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.

It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.

I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
sautan904

dlcockrum, thanks Dave, and best to you as well.

mtrot, agree, and I also thank Al, almarg for his wisdom, always a good dose of soundness (pun intended)

Now for those who still think the OP wasn’t bogus, I have some land, possibly future commercial/industrial, in Florida for sale at a fraction of potential value. Just needs a little fill in low areas to help with drainage. That being done, will likely cause the alligators to leave.

Blind tests demonstrate that differences may be too subtle to notice easily. They don't prove there are no differences but they do show that the differences are very subtle and at a level where it may not matter to some listeners. That serves a purpose. It also shows who is a better critical listener. Just like wine tasting. Some are a lot better than others. I can guess a French red wine region from blind tasting. I am hopeless with white wine. I guess my interest is red wine so that is hardly surprising. 

I agree that more than 30 secs may be necessary as I believe that a variety of tracks may actually be needed to eventually highlight a difference between components. It takes time to home in on a difference but once you find it and know what to listen for then you can find it.

To the contrary, sighted tests run the risk of being influenced by expectations. Sighted tests are of limited value when performance is very close as it is hard to remove the bias about the equipment. The old adage "looks can be deceiving" applies.
I agree with Goeffkait that bind tests have very limited value, but for the primary reason that they don't correspond to listening and therefore are invalid.

if I are merely hidden for your knowing what components are being used and you get to listen for a reasonable time to a known cut, one should get something out of them.

But a 30 second same/different task is useless as we don't listen like that when listening to music. I have been involved in such listening test of 30 seconds where after afterwards I listed for more extended time and always picked one unit as best. If you don't hear a difference between two components don't buy either. If you hear your piece sounding better, keep it. Screw anyone else opinion unless you have much prior experience they hear as you do.

How do you get confidence with so few audiophiles and dealers? THis is a major problem. I have many friends even in other countries that often give valid advice to me. But forget double blind 30, same/different tests and try to ignore bells and whistles.

But I do agree with him that many factors matter. No cytogenetic treatment, however. TEsla coil treatment is far superior.
I have decade old 1st generation Monster speaker cables in my basement.   Several years ago out of curiosity I installed them in my system.   Didn't take 30 seconds but immediately noticed collapsed soundstage, 2D (Bo, were you using Monster cables??), fuzzy, lack extension ... and NO bass.

Like I said earlier, OP is just a TROLL.  No way with Wilson Alexia, McIntosh ... and can't hear a difference between cables.
I agree with Goeffkait that bind tests have very limited value, but for the primary reason that they don't correspond to listening and therefore are invalid.

if I are merely hidden for your knowing what components are being used and you get to listen for a reasonable time to a known cut, one should get something out of them.

But a 30 second same/different task is useless as we don't listen like that when listening to music. I have been involved in such listening test of 30 seconds where after afterwards I listed for more extended time and always picked one unit as best. If you don't hear a difference between two components don't buy either. If you hear your piece sounding better, keep it. Screw anyone else opinion unless you have much prior experience they hear as you do.

How do you get confidence with so few audiophiles and dealers? THis is a major problem. I have many friends even in other countries that often give valid advice to me. But forget double blind 30, same/different tests and try to ignore bells and whistles.

But I do agree with him that many factors matter. No cytogenetic treatment, however. TEsla coil treatment is far superior.
@almarg
Thanks for injecting a bolus of reason into this thread! 

The basic premise of the cable deniers here seems to be well summed up by shadorne:

"Surely the wishful thinking is on the part of any person believing that a mere piece of copper wire (even some wire costing a ridiculous $5000) is going to transform their system in a SIGNIFICANT way?"

Well, for one thing, it seems to me that shadorne and other take it upon themselves to presume to know what is "significant" for others.  Well, who are they to know what is significant to someone else?  Who are they to presume to know the acuity of another's hearing, and how their brain perceives sound?

Also, in speaker cables, we are dealing with an analog signal, not 1s and 0s, as with digital signals.  We're told that, with digital, the device on the other end of the cable either gets the digits and decodes them, or it doesn't.   But the situation is totally different with speaker cables.  Actually, it seems absurd to me to think that cables constructed of widely differing materials and physical designs would sound alike at all.

So, back to "significance".  If a person is willing to purchase pricey cables in order to obtain an additional 5% of realistic presentation of the system's signal, why can't some people just accept that they can indeed hear a slight difference and that the product is worth it to them?
Earlier this year there was a very lengthy thread here entitled "Why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable." I posted the following in that thread, which I think is sufficiently relevant to be worth repeating here in its entirety.

To put it all succinctly, my opinion is that as with most things in life the truth lies somewhere in the middle ground between extremist points of view.

Almarg 3-15-2016 3:30pm EDT
1)Wires sound different, to a greater or lesser degree depending not only on the wire but on the technical characteristics of what they are connecting, their lengths, the AC voltage and noise characteristics at the particular location in the case of power cords (at least), the system, the room, the recording, and the listener.

2)For many reasons, including synergy with the aforementioned variables, the correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly less than 1.0 (i.e., significantly less than perfect).

3)Based in part on a substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has accumulated over the years, the correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly greater than 0.0 (i.e., significantly greater than none).

4)It seems evident that some cables are overpriced, one reason among several being that their prices are determined in part based on what the market will bear. And it seems evident that SOME segment of the market assumes a higher degree of correlation between cable price and cable performance than is actually the case, and that segment of the market will therefore pay higher prices to achieve results that may (with sufficient experimentation) be achievable at lower prices in their particular cases.

5)Additional reasons that cables may in many cases be overpriced relative to the benefit they are likely to provide (I’m quoting from myself in the following thread from a couple of years ago; and pardon the redundancy with some of the points mentioned above):

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/small-cable-companies-making-preposterous-claims

(a)As seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles, cable performance is highly system dependent.

(b)From a technical standpoint, it can be expected that cable performance will vary significantly depending on the technical characteristics of the components that are being connected, such as impedances. Even to the point of a comparison between two cables yielding exactly opposite results depending on what they are connecting. In past threads, such as this one, I have cited examples of situations in which exactly that can be expected to occur. [See especially both of the paragraphs in my post in that thread dated 12-15-2012 which begin with "one interesting example"].

(c)It seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles that cable performance cannot be either fully explained or fully predicted based on generally recognized science. It follows from that, however, that the cable designers have no way to accurately predict the point of demarcation between optimization of a given cable parameter or design characteristic and what may be overkill of that parameter or design characteristic, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications. Therefore it can be expected that what is likely to be a significant driver of the cost of many very expensive cables is overkill of some or all of their design parameters and characteristics, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications.

6)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has focused disproportionately on the higher part of the price spectrum were to give equal opportunity to a variety of cables at lower price points, and experiment with such cables as extensively as they do with higher priced cables, there is a significant chance that they may be able to achieve performance comparable to what they have achieved at those higher price points at significantly lower price points. A substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports that conclusion, for example the threads about vintage Western Electric wires.

7)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has focused disproportionately or entirely on the lower part of the price spectrum were to focus on the higher part of the price spectrum they might in some cases, depending in part on their equipment, be surprised at how good the results are. A substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports that conclusion

8)Some audiophiles care more than others about achieving the last 5 or 10 or 20% of the performance their components are capable of. Some are satisfied with 80% and just want to listen to music. Both approaches are equally valid.

9)Assertions that wire is just wire are erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated.

10)Assertions that more expensive necessarily = better are also erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated, by implication or otherwise.

11)Just as not all audible differences are measurable, not all measurable differences are audible. I say that in connection with measurable differences that are presented in some marketing literature.

12)An assertion that spending more on cables rather than less increases the **probability** of achieving optimal results is arguably correct, but pronouncements to that effect are not gospel. And opinions to the contrary, if presented in a respectful manner, can and should be discussed in a respectful manner.

Regards,
-- Al
@Glory- Perhaps I misunderstood your post, regarding the Apex and it’s MPC being, "BS". I’m rerunning this, since I was too late to edit the first post, correcting the Platinum’s maker(tried a couple Audioquest cables too, pre-Silver Audio): When Wireworld brought out it’s Platinum Eclipse interconnects, I thought I’d upgrade from my(10 year old) Silver Audio Hyacinths and ordered a pair from The Cable Company. To my dismay: while the Platinums(preamp to monoblock main amps/RCA) obviously did pass more inner detail than the Hyacinths, and retained my image focus, the sound stage collapsed to the outer edges of my Magnepans. Cable Co gave me full credit toward a pair of Tesla Apex, which equaled the Platinums in inner musical detail and restored my system’s sound stage(we’re talking a few feet to either side of the speakers). They were the first SR products I tried and have purchased a couple of the their power cords and a pair of Tesla Tricon Analogs since. Unless I win the lottery, these, along with my Kimber KS 1130s and KS 1030s are all permanent system residents. Whatever your particular problem(system compatability/ears/etc) with the Apexes, it’s not because they aren’t an excellent musical signal conduit and most assuredly NOT, "BS"!. Just relating my personal experience(end).
999999999999,

Apex is a very good wire. I could live with it for sure.

There is a more excellent way than wire to better SQ!
If the OP would have posted the video on youtube I might find some credibility in this post. I would never spend 5k on a cable. If you think wire all sounds the same, why would you buy expensive cables to match your expensive components. Are you going to say to friends look at my expensive cables that sound no better than $10 cables.

grannyring
Can we all agree wire cannot obtain the sonic pot of gold?

In this hobby it’s sometimes best not to try and draw any conclusions about anything, no matter how convinced we might be that it's true. Nothing is true. Everything is true.

Post removed 
We can agree Granny, remember wire still need speakers ,amp,cd, and preamp to hear them....

Can we all agree wire cannot obtain the sonic pot of gold? It is part of a complete that  when well matched can get you closer. But no, wire alone cannot do it. Can we also agree that wire types can sound different? Hoping to reach something we can mostly agree with.
Glory they make money by adding Mark I, Mark 2, Mark 3, others they changed name, but basically the same...at times...
When SR came out with their Apex stuff it was pushed as the "deeper higher wider 3D black blackest complete  silence holographic .... cables ever save their Galileo wire. 6 years later we are getting the same marketing BS with wider deeper higher etc... 

how much wider deeper higher 3-D holographic  can it get each year??? When does it stop ?? It's as if a vail was lifted bla bla bla. HF Pro cables at $20K will do it. More vail removed. 6 years from now more vail removed!! 20 years from now the same Marketing BS!! Add more magnets now $30K for one cable.

So this thread kills the golden cow!! Makes the cable guys twist $ squirm! Same old responses written 10 years ago. Nothing has changed!!!

There is a more excelllent way to bettter SQ in your audiophile  Journey than wire !!

After SR Apex I was  burnt so bad that I never wanted to hear or see them again. Deepest BS in Audio World ever!!! MPC BS!!!

But alas,  I tried one of their newer products that made me Realize wire was not the Rd to the pot of Gold. 

Honk Honk!!!!
Douglas Schroeder you need to reread the op.  He mentions trying two out of the three cables. 
Shadorne good for you for trying to bring some sanity to the discussion. And to the OP as well, kudos for posting this experience, unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but.....
As you can see the truth is very unpopular, people don't want to hear that there is no Santa Claus. 
Randy-11 I love that one!
i can just see all these cable gurus searching online for this wonderful new cable company. 
+shadorne  Note he said "is going to transform their system in a significant way?" and "To me a significant way should be akin to changing your TT cartridge or speakers."
Dave....proving that vampires are Really Hard to Kill...*LOL*

But I really like the 'coat hanger' idea...but only if they're solid copper, like buss bars, tinned from end to end, wrapped in the flesh of some environmentally 'non-sensitive' creature that we eat anyway...

I can see it now....Chicken WireZ.  Or, perhaps, KowKable..

(Note: Do Not show up at my doorstep with torches and pitchforks.  I am armed with neon transformers.  I will stop y'all in your tracks and gaily decorate y'all with lipstick while you twitch.  Rubber boots won't save you from looking like a Keith Harding painting gone bad.  You have been warned..)

*Evil laughter, fading into the Echoplex thumping bass line*
tls49,

That post by shadorne reminds me of a line in one of my favorite movies, "A Few Good Men": "Should we, or should we not, take the advice of the galactically stupid?"

Best to you tls49,
Dave
Question, is there a minimum length for speaker cables.
I have the feeling the dealer wants to sell a minimum of 6' 
for some reasons...

dlcockrum, ditto to the your last comment.

It has been said, put 10 audiophiles in a room to discuss cables and they will emerge with at least 11 different theories. Now I'm thinking they will never leave the room!!


"To believe that cables make no significant difference is wishful thinking. "

Huh? Did you make a typo? Surely the wishful thinking is on the part of any person believing that a mere piece of copper wire (even some wire costing a ridiculous $5000) is going to transform their system in a significant way?

To me a significant way should be akin to changing your TT cartridge or speakers. Changing cables should not be audible if your equipment is well designed to begin with and the new and old cable is made of wire (no electronics or passive filtering in the cables)

How often do you see famous guitarists switch guitars during a concert? How often do you see them changing the cables to all their instruments and microphones? 

Get real. Cables have minimal effect and equipment is specifically designed to ensure this!
Cable threads like this are a good opportunity for one to affirm one's own personal biases.
To believe that cables make no significant difference is wishful thinking. Any audiophile able to do it has my congratulations.
Amen, dill. Please let that be the final nail in the coffin of this malicious nonsense.

Dave
The original poster is trolling and I called it 2 hours after he first posted. 
It is now 2 1/2 days later. Don't you think we have wasted enough time on this?
Not every expensive cable i have purchased sounded better than a cheaper one, but some of them crushed all of the others

I don't envision a dealer allowing someone off the street to bring cables,  sit back and allow multiple hookups by a rookie. Not gonna happen. I call B.S. It doesn't help that the OP brags of his serial duplicity.

The test conducted by the OP was inherently incapable of demonstrating what was claimed, that the three different cables did not have different sonic properties. What happened in the story is equitable to what happens at shows when someone moves brass bowls around or puts a weight on a SS component. Half the time audiophiles are convincing themselves they hear a change when it's at best marginal or inaudible. He basically showed that neither his (by self-admission), nor the dealer's ears are to be trusted. That is all the OP's story demonstrates. Because there was no actual swapping of the other two cables the incident cannot demonstrate the three cables sounded the same. It literally has the same lack of testing validity as persons who claim all power cords sound the same but have only used one type.

Note that because the OP could not hear the differences between cables he used a test which set out to prove there was no difference. Hmmm... no bias in that, huh. OOPS! One problem, only one cable used! Just a SLIGHT oversight, as drawing a conclusion on something you have not tested (the other two cables) is called an opinion, not a conclusion! If not fabricated, the account was about a test borne out of ignorance, duplicity, and arrogance rather than sensibility.

For the OP to buy the expensive cable seems in character; deception. :(

Jayctoy, kimchi impregnated cotton is also on trend but will most likely give way to Peruvian chili oil impregnating.  
sautan904-

by not listing your dealer/retailer, we cannot take your interest(s) seriously.
It is not a matter of making anyone look bad/good. It is a matter of facts and accuracy!
12 gauge romex and some extension cords sound pretty good as speaker cables.

Tls49, I agree, Agoners are mostly passionate and they are willing to give the benefit of the doubt.Why I like cables forum.


"I just hope your post is true, otherwise you wasted all our time here, even though I laugh at times"

IMHO, it's obvious that the original post is bogus, however, it does prove that audiophiles can't resist talking about cables. I'm sure the OP has gotten quite a chuckle from this.

Bpoletti try silver in six twist at four feet it might remove the resonance and coloration, skin effect might be eliminated, black background might improve, you never know....
My wife is reading it just to laugh, she thinks we all crazyphile...she enjoy it...

Andrew you got it right...cables forum is the most entertaining...the arguments here is fun.
Sautan , the truth expensive cables do sound better than most cheap cables, this is not hype,Nordost kimber MIT Audioquest cardas this company would have been long gone if true audiophiles can't hear the differrence, For music lovers who are happy with their $10 cables, cool. I wish I could be happy as well, but sorry Since I have the means of buying good cables that performs on my system, Iam bless with good ears as well, I enjoy music more with my revealing musical system, with good price cables, My advise to you is be happy whatever wire you use, with those expensive gear you order, you posted  here, agoners are here to share their  opinions, you can either agree or not, your gain or your loss, that's your choice, I just hope your post is true, otherwise you wasted all our time here, even though I laugh at times, I still have fun reading grannyring post...I like the oil n cotton granny on the cable, I will experiment with Kimchi....

Cable threads, without question, are the most entertaining in the forums. 
Actually good builders test the sound of various wire both in the power supply and low voltage circuits. The type of wire used changes the sound just has various types of connectors, capacitors, and resistors do. When I build I also test wire and have spend a few hundred dollars on great sounding wire in point to point wired tube amps. The wire used certainly makes a difference. But, to have knowledge of this you must have actually taken the time to listen to different wire in the circuit/amp and that takes quite an effort. Most designers don't make this effort and operate under the assumption all good wire, in spec for the job at hand, sounds the same. They are wrong as many of us know. 

Coat hangers would be very difficult to work with as they are quite rigid and lack an insulation jacket. In theory they might work electrically but are very impractical compared to ordinary wires suitable to the task.

For sure there are several dollars worth of wire in most components and a few dollars in connectors too. I don't see many manufactures putting $5000 worth of wire inside but I guess most manufacturers would never be that stupid when ordinary wire will do.



shadorne
If a system is resolving of or highly sensitive to the wires then it is designed incorrectly. I don’t invest in audio gear to hear the wires - I prefer to hear the source music.

do you invest in the internal wires of the component that connect all the electronic parts, the internal speaker wires, the wires of the transformer, the wires in the capacitors, the internal wires in stereo cartridges and tone arms? Why don’t all the high end manufacturers just use coat hangers? Wouldn't that be more profitable?

Funny thing I just realized about blind testing: it can prove that those that think they see are really blind, but it cannot make those whom are blind see.

Dave
*Yawn*  Hasn't this topic been 'discussed' to death yet?

Here's the stake and the hammer.  Put this vampire down once and for all.

Y'know, just for grins and the 'ell of it....I'd like to see a truly 'blind' A/B/C comp between a 'high end' cable (pick one...you're 'fav', why not), a decent 12AWG copper line with tinned ends ('horrors!'), and a good Bluetooth link  'twixt amps and the speakers.  Pick the speakers and other equipment by a lottery...although that'll probably please nobody.  But that's democracy for you....;)

I'll bet that if it's done Correctly, Truly Blind, that the opinions that would come out of it would be all over the board.  There would be no agreement as to what was best.  Again, MHO....and everything I know is wrong...

Until then...I'm going to ignore cable forums.  Reminds me of how many angels can be on the head of a pin.
If a system is resolving of or highly sensitive to the wires then it is designed incorrectly. I don't invest in audio gear to hear the wires - I prefer to hear the source music.