Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

Coda to DOG: C) ever wonder what the 12K over the 8K (4K at my age) that you can't hear is for? Not to make the system sound better, but to drive your dog nuts. 

"You are too emotionally involved in defending expensive cable. Either you are a cable rep, or you need some therapeutic assistance."

I'm not defending expensive cables. Try taking a reading comprehension course sometime. You appear to be in over your head.

Geoffkait: you are waaaaay too emotionally involved in defending expensive cable.  Either you are a cable rep, or you need some therapeutic assistance. 

JPerry: the system is as follows:

CARTRIDGES: Koetsu Onyx; Koetsu Redwood Sugnature; Benz Micro; Grado (for my 78s)

ARM: Sumiko MMT

TURNTABLE: VPI HW MK IV with SAM

PREAMP: Beard P505, rebuilt by Jon Specter (formerly of NY Audio Labs, a blues guitarist and cousin of Al Cooper of BS&T and Highway 61 fame) with Jensen foil caps and phono stage adjusted for MC cartridges. 

AMPS: NY Audiolab version of the Julius Futterman output-transformer-less Monoblocks, the OTL3. Jon Specter converted them from pentode to triode, replaced all the caps with Jensen foils. 

CROSSOVERS: Mastering Lab, caps replaced with Jensens. 

SPEAKERS: Altec Lansing 694Cs, with accordion surround, cone, spider, voice coil and dome (in other words, all moving parts) all very recently replaced by Gabriel Sound with manufacturer specified parts provided by Great Plains Audio. 

Also:

CD PLAYER: Rega Planet

TUNER: Kenwood KT8300

RUGS: Moroccan, on the wood floor, to keep sound from splashing. The rugs are way more important than...

CABLES: standard, no name cables between table/preamp/amps, Monster to the speakers but Geoffkait is inspiring me to get off my butt, run down to the local hardware store, buy some lamp wire and stick it in there for Ss&Ks, just to annoy him. 

DOG: a Spitz named Mitsy. She's an audiophile too. A) She better be if she wants her food. B) she knows where the sweet spot is. Good Mitsy! Here's your treat! C) she howls when I play the overture to The Who's Tommy, and some other records too, but that one especially. Adds to the mood somehow.  John Specter says that's because she hears things captured by the recording that the recording engineers couldn't hear - and that you or I can't hear - and that my system is able to reveal. 

I had dinner with the Monster Cable dude, him and John Curl and Bob Crump way back when. Please note this thread is about $5K cables not $25 cables. Hel-loo! I actually made the mistake of buying Monster Cable when it first came out. The thick twisted multi-stranded copper wire in the clear see-thru jacket. The cable wars have been off and running ever since Monster and Polk Audio and Fulton cables first came out. When was that? Gotta be at least 30 years ago, maybe 35. And it appears the cable wars are still going on.

That was supposed to be addressed to geoffkait. Spellcheck strik s again.  

Geoff Jair, I hate to burst your bubble, but if I had the time I could hunt down the exact quote. That is exactly what he said. 

When Monster cable came out, it was decidedly not cheap. I know: I'm old enough to remember when it came out, I bought it and compared to the lamp cord I was using, it was way more expensive. 

At the time, I did not hear significant improvement in the sound and decided that it might be because I have to continue to upgrade other parts of the system. 

I made a mistake earlier: the wires that go from the terminals to the diaphragm on the Altecs are thin, inexpensive wires. 

Nah, Taters has much better gear than randy has.

Did Taters get reincarnated as Randy?

I need to read the DNM site again and see if what they say there sounds kosher or not.   I swear no other large form ICs sound coherent in comparison for some reason. 

Randy do you think it could be more significant in interconnects than speaker wires and maybe be heard there?  

yeh, not much profit on 16 ga. speaker wire

the analogy to light in the sky is way off base

aspects of wire construction beyond the fundamental electronic properties that affects how waves of varying frequency propagate exist but only affect RF frequencies

electrostatic speakers present complex impedance loads and the sound will change based on capacitance and inductance in the wires - that doesn't mean the sound is better

this does not apply to Maggies or to most electrodynamic speakers

I won't say that speaker cabling is the most injurious and fraudulent audiophile product however.  That 'crown' is shared among interconnects and various tweaks.

Hey look I may not be a pin boy, but I do think that there are certain aspects of wire construction beyond the fundamental electronic properties that affects how waves of varying frequency propagate along it much like the atmasphere affects propogation of light so that it is not always seen as white, ie as blue skies, rainbows etc.

Anecdotally, I even think I can hear differences between say minimalist DNM ICs (single solid conductor core) I use (and tend to like best) and other wires of much different form factor and construction. They have a coherent sound I do not find in large overbuilt wires.

DNM proves to me though that its a simple problem to address and does not require fancy overbuilt wires that may add some unique or exotic flavor to the sound but is not required and may even cause further harm in some cases.

Don’t you love a good anecdote?

Regarding speaker wires specifically, I tend to not care much other than I follow old school dogma that says longer runs need to be lower gauge (larger diameter).   Back when I actually sold gear I never recommended 16 gauge speaker wire to anyone.

Ouch! Very ouch!

That's OK.  I've lost count by now.

Huh? You mean you’re not a pinboy? Whoops, my bad.

Dunno but its cold and snowing.   Nice bowling weather actually.

Slow day at the bowling alley, Moops?

I'm glad you do.

Huh? You don’t even know what anecdotal evidence is, Moops, do you?

You may. Most all posts here are anecdotes in a sense. Yours included.

mapman

The nice thing about anecdotes are anyone can write one and say whatever they want.

Right. Kinda like a lot of your posts, if I may be so bold.

The nice thing about anecdotes are anyone can write one and say whatever they want.  Jacob Grimm came up with some classics in his day. 

mapman
how about teleportation tweaks? That’s not even anecdotal unless one considers the seller saying it works enough to qualify.

Glad you brought that up, Moops. In fact there’s a bunch of "anecdotal" reports on the Teleportation Tweak, you know, given that it's been around a while. Give me a second and I’ll link you up.

Here you go, Moops

http://machinadynamica.com/machina39.htm

how about teleportation tweaks?   That's not even anecdotal unless one considers the seller saying it works enough to qualify. 

"Cables that measure the same sound different". You state this as if it were fact but it is merely an anecdotal claim. Unfortunately your claim is not enough to cause curriculum changes globally in Universities. If you can provide verification or design an experiment to demonstrate this then you will become famous for discovering a new parameter in circuit design.

shadorne
Geoffkait,

I think frame11 was quoting the audio critic and the statement is entirely correct from an engineering design perspective. Go to any reputable University and study electrical engineering or physics and the professors and text books will only use R, L and C for calculations at audio frequencies. These are the only factors that need to be considered in these analog circuits at these frequencies because they encompass and describe the entire behaviour as far as reputable science is concerned.

I do hate to be argy bargy about this but if the statement regarding RLC was actually true then how come cables that measure the same sound different? That’s right up there with the bullet headed dude from Audio Review’s opinion that all amps that measured about the same sounded the same. Any reputable University? Huh? That’s like the most obvious Appeal to Authority I’ve seen all week. You know, as in phoney argument.

Now anecdotally what people claim to hear can be an entirely different matter; unlike scientific laws and procedures in science that require repeatability of measurements by anyone and everyone to be accepted, there is no need to demonstrate or prove any of the wild claims about special wires...so audiophile dealers and audiophiles can and do make wild unsubstantiated claims all the time. These claims are quite similar to many unproven wild or crazy claims about incredible benefits of certain health foods or certain diets or any multitude of anecdotal claims that just might be influenced one encouraged by the potential profit from selling the "magical" products.

Typical anti cable rant, signifying nada. In fact observations of the sound are perfectly good evidence in the scientific sense. Didn’t you know that?

Geoffkait,

I think frame11 was quoting the audio critic and the statement is entirely correct from an engineering design perspective. Go to any reputable University and study electrical engineering or physics and the professors and text books will only use R, L and C for calculations at audio frequencies. These are the only factors that need to be considered in these analog circuits at these frequencies because they encompass and describe the entire behaviour as far as reputable science is concerned.

Now anecdotally what people claim to hear can be an entirely different matter; unlike scientific laws and procedures in science that require repeatability of measurements by anyone and everyone to be accepted, there is no need to demonstrate or prove any of the wild claims about special wires...so audiophile dealers and audiophiles can and do make wild unsubstantiated claims all the time. These claims are quite similar to many unproven wild or crazy claims about incredible benefits of certain health foods or certain diets or any multitude of anecdotal claims that just might be influenced one encouraged by the potential profit from selling the "magical" products.

unreceivedogma and  frame11

Please post your system components and details. Thanks.

Frame11 wrote,

"The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies."

😄 Thanks for the funniest statement of the day. Of course, there are 24 hours in a day. We shall see how it holds up.

I love audiogon. It is a great, trusted, and reliable service. I have bought and sold a couple of items over the years. The forum can be a great resource, however I thoroughly enjoy reading these types of threads purely for the entertainment value. Absolute and total insanity!!!! My interest in home audio has evolved from buying mass market and then boutique gear to building my own amps and speakers. Not only is Radio Shack wire sufficient for most applications but thin, ugly, brown lamp cord from Home Depot is a great option as well. I defer to the Audio Critic and lie #1 from his "10 Biggest Lies in Audio."

"1. The Cable Lie
Logically this is not the lie to start with because cables are accessories, not primary audio components. But it is the hugest, dirtiest, most cynical, most intelligence-insulting and, above all, most fraudulently profitable lie in audio, and therefore must go to the head of the list.

The lie is that high-priced speaker cables and interconnects sound better than the standard, run-of-the-mill (say, Radio Shack) ones. It is a lie that has been exposed, shamed, and refuted over and over again by every genuine authority under the sun, but the tweako audio cultists hate authority and the innocents can’t distinguish it from self-serving charlatanry.

The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections. In basic electrical performance, however, a nice pair of straightened-out wire coat hangers with the ends scraped is not a whit inferior to a $2000 gee-whiz miracle cable. Nor is 16-gauge lamp cord at 18-cents a foot. Ultrahigh-priced cables are the biggest scam in consumer electronics, and the cowardly surrender of nearly all audio publications to the pressures of the cable marketers is truly depressing to behold."

So Doug Sax of Mastering Lab fame used ordinary wire???? This is blasphemy.

After trying many brands of cables for my Infinity Irs Betas the ones that sound by far the best are the ones i made with 8 gauge magnet wire. I did some blind testing with a few friends and they all picked the homemade cables. 

unreceivedogma wrote,

"I’ve got news for all of you cable addicts.

The founder of Monster Cable said he realized that audio nuts would pay a fortune for "high end audio cable" so he founded a company based on that premise, creating products to meet this demand. He says that in reality the expensive cable makes little to no difference in the overall sound. You might as well use lamp chord."

Uh, hate to burst your bubble but Monster Cable, at least initially, was inexpensive cable, not expensive cable. Hel-loo! The attraction was that Monster Cable was THICK and you could see the thick copper through the clear jacket, which are both actually excellent ideas, you know, given the propensities of audiophiles.

I've got news for all of you cable addicts. 

The founder of Monster Cable said he realized that audio nuts would pay a fortune for "high end audio cable" so he founded a company based on that premise, creating products to meet this demand. He says that in reality the expensive cable makes little to no difference in the overall sound. You might as well use lamp chord. 

Audio dealers and manufacturers these days are just a hustle, thanks no doubt in part to extreme income inequality. 

For example, I saw a pair of speakers in an audio showroom whose cabinet size was suspiciously similar to mine. I walked over to get a closer look. They were claimed to be a one-off by Shindo. The asking price was $33K. I asked the dealer if the driver - plainly visible, no grill cloth - was the old Altec Lansing 604C. He hemmed and hawed for a bit but I put my foot down and said that I have a pair of 604Cs at home and I am 200% certain these drivers are the very same. My speakers, with cabs and the Mastering Lab crossovers cost $3.3K, not $33K!

He relented and by that time I had attracted a crowd. 

Some poor sucker bought these speakers a week later. 

Btw, the wires that connect the crossovers to the speaker terminals in the otherwise still fantastic sounding 694Cs - hey, good enough for Shindo - is definitely not $1K per foot. Cheap, very thin copper wire. 

The problem is that gullible consumers are being taken advantage of by fraudsters.

OTOH, if you have electrostatics, then you really can use over-priced speaker cables as very expensive tone controls.

Note: All written below with the intent of humor, particularly at the end!

"Rolex & Timex, both tell time correctly..."; personally I do NOT like Rolex or other 'big balls on my wrist/matcho watches" type of watches but that's neither here nor there & is clearly a personal preference.  I tend more towards the more traditional Rados, Movados, etc and would love to own a (even used) Patek some day but you just cannot (IMHO in the long-run) compare the correctness of timekeeping and "likely to still work in 20+years" aspects of commodity watches (Timex, lower-end Bulova, Citizen, etc.. and others including Fossil (I've owned several of all 4 brands) and the vast collection of inexpensive bauble fashion watches out there in terms of build quality, etc...Go to the mall; it seems like every fashion brand out there now somehow magically knows how to match watches too.  I know in many cases mechanical movements are gone and the digital ones internally are in, but watch how the clasp, band, case, etc...hold up, how many of them (not all) either lose time or gain time after the 1 or more years, etc...and then compare against a better watch. In many (NOT ALL!) cases you get what you pay for. Both my wife and i have been through as has my son and the number of 'inexpensive' watches we've had to have fixed or discarded because the cost of fixing them exceeds what it took to buy them initially, is a very long list.

Here are the humor-laden intended bits below!

See,...I've gone and done "it" above; same problem as these damned cable threads. We will never solve or close down or win these things. They simply clutter up (which I've helped do here!) the forums. We all try to justify what we spend, or don't spend, do/don't believe accordingly; it's all subjective and there is no right or wrong.

Everybody who like higher-cost cables, let's all go ahead and keep using them and "STFU".

Everyone who wants to use lampshade wire, stock cords or good quality stock 10, 12, 14 or whatever gauge (which exists by the way) from Home Depot or Lowe's or GE, Westinghouse or anyone else, go ahead and keep on using them and "STFU".

In short, let's stop beating the crap out of each other with the same ole' threads with different subject lines and different content shall we?

Clearly,...ROTFLMAO, have a great day/night everyone!

"You can't believe everything you read."

Good words to live by.  I've always tried to take everything I've read with a 'grain of salt', as we were admonished by the older wizened ones.

It's since grown to the size of a salt lick, but it's a great place to prop up my weary feet whilst perusing the 'net's nooks 'n crannies....;)

"Sifting sand, sifting sand, lookin' for some trace of you...."

This is a useful discussion for someone who is unhappy with their system's sound or who has been debating spending a boatload on cables.

'Tis an ancient debate and will never be settled in the court of critical listening although I think it gas in the court of science. For myself, I believe very strongly in both sides. ;^)
I use 12 g Auvio speaker wire. It's 50% bare copper and 50% silver coated. I haven't compared it with more expensive cable; but other's have measured its resistance against 10 other cables and it came in second to Canare 411. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14134-When-12-Gauge-Wire-is-not-12-Gauge!
I've compared it to 14 g and basic 12 g. Not a huge difference; but at 10 ft. length, I like the Auvio better. Tried bi-wiring. I Think I may gave heard a slight difference in non-blind comparison. I left the speakers bi-wired because it couldn't hurt.

ICs are a different story. I feel one MUST replace the generic RCA ICs that come with most components, but I've achieved a sound that I like without spending a boatload. I recently replaced a pair of 1 1/2 meter AQ AlphaSnakes with a pair of 1 meter WireWorld Luna 7s, their cheapest at $40, on my Oppo BDP-95. There was a change in tonality, the WW being a little brighter and seeming to have better detail. I like that; but there are some passages where it is too bright for me. I'll live with that because these cables accomplished something I could not, no matter how I positioned my Canton Ergo 1002DCs. Not only did they widen the already wide soundstage and provide more space between the musicians, they actually elevated the stage from the level of my navel to that of my ears. I was not expecting that! I had a friend listen, literally blindfolded, as I switched the ICs back and forth - or not. He heard the same thing and was able to pick out the WWs 4 of 5 times. The WireWorld cables have a unique physical design, which is why I chose them. Was that the cause of the difference, or is it just that they are 1/2 meter shorter?  I don't know, but I'm planning on tying their Solstice or Oasis between my phono-pre and preamp. Maybe I'll keep them in the freezer for a week before I connect them. Nah. You can't believe everything you read. ;^)

Thanks Folkfreak. Have a great day.

folkfreak: All I was "researching" was the price. Don’t really care what they are made of since they seem to fix a problem that does not exist...or at least is not audible to the human ear (an opinion)...or provide an increase in audio quality so infinitesimal that moving a sofa 1/4" might work as well.

So, you are correct, "...I have no interest or belief," which is the point of my comment.

These over engineered, ridiculously priced cables and other "accessories" seem to say more about the buyers and the marketeers who gladly sell them. Kinda like a Rolex vs. Timex. Both tell time accurately but only the Rolex says you have money to burn. It is a piece of jewelry. Just like a $16,000.00 RCA connect is a piece of jewelry. I want good music from my $30K system...not a personal financial statement.

Think I’ve made my opinions known so I will leave this forum now. If anyone needs the final word, fire away.

@dynaquest4 I suspect it is your use of the term "rubber feet" when the Sort Fut is aluminium, bronze and ceramic with no rubber at all -- implying you have done no research and have no real interest nor belief in the value of vibration control

I’ve never tried this particular footer but I will note that my preferred footers (Marigo F8) are even more tweaky in their design, and cost a little more as well I think ...

See what you stated sautan! LOL

jperry: What? Is this some game? What was the misstatement you highlight but do not reveal?  Is it my use of the generic term "rubber feet?"

dynaquest4, I was not talking about the price, and you did make a misstatement. 

jperry: Please don't make the misstatement that I made a misstatement. Three clicks would find you here: https://www.musicdirect.com/vibration-control/nordost-sort-fut-resonance-control-system

Actually the price isn't that bad compared to their Odin cables.  Feet for two speakers would only set you back $3000.00

dynaquest414 posts "Oh...and Nordost also sells rubber feet for your speakers and components for up to $350/ea."

I love when someone posts an obvious misstatement of fact maligning a product they have obviously never seen or heard.

After reading through this I agree with you dlcockrum" ...All the guys that know better have checked out."

Dynaquest4 wrote,

"In an earlier post someone was touting (promoting? selling?) Nordost Odin cables (see link at bottom). A quick and dirty calculation determined that to equip a stereo system (preamp/amp/player/speakers) with this line of cables, it would cost $176,000. Let’s say that these cables provided a significant 5% "improvement" in audio quality. My math says that the rest of your system should cost about $3,500,000.00 for this purchase to make sense."

Thanks for the heads up. I was this close to pulling the trigger on a full loom of Nordost Odin cables.

In an earlier post someone was touting (promoting? selling?) Nordost Odin cables (see link at bottom).  A quick and dirty calculation determined that to equip a stereo system (preamp/amp/player/speakers) with this line of cables, it would cost $176,000.  Let's say that these cables provided a significant 5% "improvement" in audio quality.  My math says that the rest of your system should cost about $3,500,000.00 for this purchase to make sense.  

This is a very exaggerated example of why this topic is of interest to so many...and won't go away.  

Oh...and Nordost also sells rubber feet for your speakers and components for up to $350/ea.

That these exist is almost laughable.  That someone would have so little respect for the value of money to buy them is incomprehensible to me. That otherwise intelligent "audiophiles" would fall for the "science" that goes into these WIRES is just funny.

Here is the Nordost webpage:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nordost-odin-cables#RVL875dvXyhkwk1P.97

Some related reading expensive cable buyers will hate:

http://ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html

and: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil