Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

+1 Dill. You can also call a couple of Dixie cups connected by some string a communication system. These sorts of ridiculous arguments as Randee keeps coming up with only serve to bolster the theory there’s an ever-widening chasm between the Mid Fi crowd and the High Enders.

randy said: " zip cord will work for most dynamic speakers "

So will coat hangers, I know, I tried it with mono amps and they sounded like s_it. I also tried original Monster Cable, silver coated copper cable, NBS cable and solid silver cable. 

They all sounded different, "the placebo effect" theory is silly. I found that all the cables above sounded different, quite different actually and easy to hear. I have owned and used cables from Tara Labs, Straightwire, NBS, DH Labs, Apature, Homegrown Audio and MIT. Some where cheap, others expensive and they all sounded different in my system.

Price doesn't dictate how a cable will sound, leave that to your ears and system synergy. I am currently using Supra Ply 3.4 speaker cable and they work great in my current setup.

zip cord will work for most dynamic speakers - keep it rel. fat and short

another adv. of monoblocks

if you are wowed by the placebo effect, put it inside a tube fo mapleshady and spray it with a graphene splackle

don't forget the elevators!!!!

Dave_b, Looks like the MIT cables were not a very good match for your system. Glad you found something that works better.

Signal Cable Ultra
MIT ORACLE 1.5's

And those cheap giant killer cables are? .... drum roll....

And those overpriced high end cables are? .....drum roll....

Results will vary but I have heard relatively cheap wires that beat most high end cables.  I had $20k cables and they sounded great but currently I have some $159 speaker cables that pretty much blow away my previous $18k set:()

benjie and eniac,

Don't confuse the issue with rational, logic, or actual experience.  You cannot overcome the "My opinion continues..." argument. It's impenetrable as is the gray matter of its author.

Dave 

Those who tend to pull/play the expectation bias card also tend to assume that large sums of money were already given away to acquire the competing  cables or "fileintheblankherewithsomethingelse" and because of that the testers expectations will always favor the more expensive component.

I disagree.

What if the tester actually wanted the less expensive component to be better but somehow manged to remain open minded enough during the test to let the results speak for themselves and ended up liking the more expensive component more because it was found to be better?

What if the tester borrowed a bunch of cables (in this case) and didn't spend a dime on the test? Does expectation bias still exist in this case?

I guess technically it could but its pretty rare that someone pulls that card and isn't also doing so with reference to supposed excess money being spent in the process.

My opinion continues that if you have decent cables to begin with, any improvement in sound quality, if any (and I don't think there will be any) is going to be so subtle that the only way you will be able to discern a difference is with an instantaneous A/B switch.  Hardly any consumer has the capability to do this so improvements are more likely to be the result of expectation bias.

Maybe I missed it somewhere before page 11 of this thread but I wonder how long the various cables were tried before a determination was made?

I was never a believer of fancy speaker cables until I tried some very good ones and let them simmer a bit in the system. Its not likely anyone will hear a difference between the cables during a very short test. At least in my case it took several hours of listening at minimum before I could start to put any meaningful thoughts together of what I was hearing differently.

This all of course assumes that the previous cable wasn't just plain broken to begin with.

Not sure about anyone else but I find that it takes several listening sessions to get your head around differences and then to be able to pick them out consistently. I also find that once you do notice something for the better or worse its very hard to "unhear" those differences.

I am all for upgrading power cables, component cables and I used to think cable was cable Nordost cables and my Bowers and Wilkins 800 series with Classe amps made a big difference. I think when you reach a certain level cables can squeeze out a little better sound. I have never seen an audio store willing to do tests like those illustrated, no matter how much you spend. It undermines their business and puts them on the spot. Kinda dick move if true in my opinion. 

Hi @sautan904, honestly I don’t think there is an “audible” difference between a $1K+ cable and a generic one (at least in my experience) I ordered this 250 ft long 16Awg wire from tektel to replace my old cables in my vintage pair of Quad ESL 63s and it works pretty well.

Oh boy,...here we go again <LOL>!

B&W with Emotiva?  Uh-oh.

Dynaquest, have you ever listened to your system with any other cables than bottom of the line Monoprice, with your  B&W/Emotiva/Oppo system?

To the original poster’s question, I say "yes". I have never owned speaker cable that costs $5000, but have heard them in demos and they certainly didn’t seem to detract from the overall experience.

Over 10 years ago I replaced a very long run of lamp cord with $5.00 a foot solid core copper wire in a generally poor system and I was hard pressed to immediately hear any difference. After a long break in period the sound of the wire changed, but not necessarily for the better, just better exposing fatal flaws in my amp and speakers, providing a clearer window on generally crappy sound. Needless to say, that system is long gone.

I very recently replaced decent $1 per foot and $2 per foot multistranded copper cables in two different systems with some solid core copper cables with more exotic metallurgy and construction that cost more than 10x the cables they replaced. One system is a solid home theater/two channel digital and analog set up in a purpose built media room with 21’ cable runs. The other is a computer based office system for near field listening that cost less than $1K. In both cases, the difference was shocking, especially in the office system in that I was not prepared for it to be capable of sounding that good. Tone, timing, lack of sibilants, and spatial information are all improved. In both cases, the cables are completely out of view, so the only satisfaction of owning them is what I hear coming out of my speakers. But what I hear coming out of the speakers in both systems is a problem now because I want to listen to music all the time, LOL.

Based on admittedly limited past personal experience I put the hierarchy of impact of cables as power cords first, then interconnects, and finally speaker cables. My recent experience challenges my previous assumptions about this. Perhaps because I had the upstream cabling sorted out, the speaker cables showed more effect than I had noticed in the past.

My recent experience with power, interconnects and speaker cables tells me metallurgy makes a big difference and that grain and surface structure are both important, perhaps as or more important than the metal purity. I will say silver wires generally sound completely different than the copper wires I have heard. In my current systems, I prefer Silver digital cables and copper analog cables, YMMV.

If this all sounds crazy or doesn’t match your experience, then that is great - you will save money and can use the cables you got in the box with your gear or at the hardware store and be perfectly happy. I am just reporting some of my own experiences here, not itching for a fight.

kn

Some points:

1. The link to Dr Waldrep’s test was recently posted by another member (scroll up)….I had never heard of the guy before. I had no original intent to “cite” that test except to counter dlcockrum’s slam on the good doctor's objectivity.

2. I didn’t “cite any other results to support my point…” because that is not my job. Google the issue, there are numerous, unbiased test results available online. What is hard to find is a test that supports “exotic” accessories performed by an unbiased manufacturer, retailer or owner.

3. My issue is not so much with those that fall for this wowwow magic…it is with manufacturers and retailers that get away with this scam.

4. My system is, likely by Audiogon standards, “mid-fi”  - B&W/Emotiva/Oppo. Mostly Monoprice cables. Spending more money on more expensive components would be a poor value due to diminishing returns. And purchasing “exotic” accessories would be a total waste of disposable income I can contribute to support other hobbies and interests I have.

5. Expectation bias (placebo effect): It is absolutely amazing what the brain can imagine. Once an “improvement” (new equipment/accessories) is added to a music system, one listens – this is a physical and, of course, mental process. You cannot isolate the brain from the experience for a number of reasons, and the more that is spent, the greater the expectation for improvement. The placebo effect will always be there because the listener/big-spender knows that there has been a change. Since virtually no consumer does, or has the capability to perform, an instantaneous AB test (the only kind that are really valid) on the old/new equipment, his expectation will allow him the pleasure of experiencing superior performance – even when there is none. In almost every case, once very basic requirements are met, more expensive cables, ICs and speaker wire do nothing to improve sound quality. It is science. Wowwow, voodoo magic wire is a scam.

6. On a light note, here is what one reviewer noted:  “With the help of these cables, I can now experience music the way it's meant to be heard. I find that plugging them directly into my ears helps transmit the cleanest, most pure sound. Make sure you clean your ears out though (with liquefied dark matter, of course), because quality will suffer if your ear-holes aren't sparkly clean.”

dynaquesr4 
@ dlcockrum: I may have missed your point but I doubt seriously I missed the point. That point is that before people spend hundreds or (even) thousands of dollars on pretty cables with shiney connects, that come in felt bags and wooden boxes, that they are aware of the insideous power of the subconscious that will lead their ears to justify the money they spent on accessories that are incapable of improving audio signals. That psyco-effect is real. To deny it is sophomoric.

No one is saying there is NO SUCH THING as expectation bias or placebo effect or any other psychological phenomenon. But it's folly to believe that all listening is based on these psychological phenomena. That's why there are tests to eliminate psychological issues from the test. That's why we have AB, AB tests, and why we have often prefer long periods of evaluation - to be able to understand the real differences in sound, assuming they exist, and eliminate psychological issues. If you really believe that psychological issues always cloud your judgement in making audio decisions I reckon you have probably psyched yourself out.

Yes...long past time to move on past this thread which I’ll also try to do after sending this...

dynaquest: Going back a few layers, Dr. Waldrep is a recognized authority on multi-channel recording and mastering technologies and I have extremely high respect for his work and I own nearly every DVD-A he ever produced sitting within sight of me writing this response. A key question is however, did you assess his inherent bias or at least system of beliefs on the topic before you included him as the only one authority running a test that you cite? Appeal to authority is, as others have pointed out already, a de facto self-invalidating & weakening tactic for any argument, PARTICULARLY when you include only one authority who may have a belief system that is skewed one way or the other. Not saying Dr. Waldrep has one view or the other but it is clear that you cite him because he happens to have chosen the outcome that fits your side of the story, and further, that you did not cite any results that don’t support your point of view regardless of source. There is a subtlety too in what he writes in that part of the A/B test they he allowed them to just "switch between DACs..."; it seems to me that this alone is the basis for declaring the test questionable / partially faulty, regardless of the outcome. If the intent is to run a blind-test on "expensive cord" versus "inexpensive/almost free or stock cord", how is a test also including switching the frame of reference test device considered valid?

The amazing thing to me about this entire thread is the fact that some of you seem absolutely intent on bashing, insulting and brow-beating anyone into submission who does not believe as you do. On the other hand, many of us who have supposedly been duped, drunk the kool-aid from the cable vendors, don’t know what we are hearing, have inferior systems of perception and judgement, etc...and all the other little flawed argument-based insults various people have thrown out there,....are perfectly fine and at peace with the fact that you don’t believe as we do, or in SOME cases with SOME cables, a difference can be heard in our systems but that you don't hear such things ever in yours and further refuse to be open to the concept.

Personally I say "More power to you...!" that you are happy with your system, cables and cords; you may very well be right and you may very well be a lot smarter and have alot more cash left for other things than I do :-) and you have not made the mistakes with cables that I have, since you did not spend alot on your cables in the first place.

I am however curious what level and price of stereo and/or home-theater & stereo components you are running, what car, truck and/or motorcycle/sports bike that you you own versus the basic options available (remember a car’s a car after all, don’t need one of those moderately expensive to expensive cars or cars with better options after all(!)), if you like watches or boats, etc...what brand and model you pick, etc...to see if you practice what you preach in all aspects in your life or if you simply have a "xxxx-on for " and "won’t take the armband off" when it comes to audio, power and video cord-related topics and would go to any length to justify your point of view and browbeat the rest of us until we believe as you do.

Have a great day everyone!!!

Most folks I know listen with their ears. lol

pops is right. Past time to move on. Sorry pops.

Dave

listen for themselves with their ears?

or listen for themselves with their eyes?

Yawn...

dynaquest said: " That psyco-effect is real."
According to Google, there is no such thing.

I’m sure that we all will sleep better knowing that you are protecting us from psych-effects, dynaquest.

Dave

@ dlcockrum: I may have missed your point but I doubt seriously I missed the point.  That point is that before people spend hundreds or (even) thousands of dollars on pretty cables with shiney connects, that come in felt bags and wooden boxes, that they are aware of the insideous power of the subconscious that will lead their ears to justify the money they spent on accessories that are incapable of improving audio signals.  That psyco-effect is real.  To deny it is sophomoric.

Once again dynaquest, you missed the point. It is not important whether or how anyone regards your, my, or anyone else's point of view. It is important that they listen for themselves and decide for themselves.

Dave

Goef: thanks for the explanation.  Part of that sounded algebraic or similar to finate math; but I get your point.

Dlcockrum: I get that you do not care for my point of view and beliefs relative to this issue... but getting personal and lobbing insults doesn't enhance your auruments, it is just that - insulting.  Not to worry, I have thick skin.

"Who do you think I’m going to put credibility in?"

Your narcisism prevents you from understanding that neither I, nor anyone else, cares with whom you place credibility.

My challenge is limited to your continuous diatribe that other people cannot possibly hear what they report to hear, thus it can only be expectation bias, an argument that lacks both reason and credibility. I encourage them to listen for themselves and decide.

Dave

Dynaquest4

No worries. here's the explanation of what I posted.

Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct
Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]

Forms
General
The argument from authority can take several forms. As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:[5][9]

A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.[5][10]

goef...sorry, I do not get your comment: "Sorry to say, that just screams Appeal to Authority. You know, an illogical argument. An excellent example, actually."

What does this mean?

To be sure it's clear, my previous post was not making or implying an argument against silver.

It was simply saying that the fact that silver has a slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity than copper, which is often cited as an argument in favor of silver, is very unlikely to be the reason for whatever sonic differences may occur between a silver cable and a copper cable.

Thank you, Al, I understood your points.  I'm saying that I've heard them before, they are common arguments(or points, or whatever you'd like to call them), and we could go back and forth on this for weeks.  Seriously.  Just like this thread.  I wouldn't want to waste your time, however.  You seem quite knowledgeable and polite to boot.

In my simple comparison, you are saying that something else was at play that gave me the better sonics.  Also not a new argument.  But I've compared 7 or 8 different pairs of interconnects in my system.  It can't be RCA connectors, or shielding, or the building line supply or other devices in the branch circuits or my hearing or the room sonics or the rest of the system.  

At the end of the day, you believe whatever you feel led to believe.  That's fine.  But I'm not going to ignore jaw dropping results with solid core silver conductor cables because someone on the internet thinks otherwise.  I know my system, I know what the results are and I'm happy to let others think whatever makes them happy.  

But for those who have heard differences in cables, and want to improve on entry level cabling for cheap, look into solid core silver cables from Stager Sound.   I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just impressed with what they've done with silver at the price point.

Appeal to Authority Alert!!

"Dr. Waldron has two Phd’s in music and computer science and over thirty years as a recording and mastering engineer. Who do you think I’m going to put credibility in?"

Sorry to say, that just screams Appeal to Authority. You know, an illogical argument. An excellent example, actually.

cheers

dlcockrum says (regarding the DR. Waldrep article/test): "My point exactly. Based on his opening, the author was intent on proving there are no differences, thus he proclaimed to hear none."

What you failed to mention, in over site, is that  other audio professionals were involved in the test; to wit:

 "A group of professional audio engineers that work in other studios in the building (including a Grammy award winner) couldn’t detect any difference — and neither could I! I simply let them listen and switch between the DACs — and no one reported hearing even the slightest change. If the designer of the cable notices a “dramatic” difference at his place, I don’t know how he does it. In my “high resolving” studio, no one could hear any fidelity change when using a $3000 power cord vs. the $1.50 one that is supplied by Benchmark (and which they recommend!)."

Dr. Waldrep has a Masters and two Phd's in music and computer science and over thirty years as a recording and mastering engineer.  Who do you think I'm going to put credibility in?

I would not conclude that "all cables" don't make a difference based on a speaker cable test. In my experience, power cords and interconnects make the most difference, then speaker cables. And with speaker cables, the more plastic and rubber on the cable ( like some high end cable) the worse they sound. So I can understand when someone uses raw, good quality copper cable to hook up their speakers, the sound is good. Now get some with better copper, thin high quality insulation, and leave off the fancy gold plated brass connectors.

Re the "good succinct article on cables"

Obviously it’s not really too hard to find a bunch of audiophiles somewhere who either can’t set up a system correctly and/or can’t hear. In fact, we see it quite frequently right here on Agon. Actually no single test of anything proves anything, I’m afraid. If everyone at the test heard it you could say, well, it was rigged, group hypnosis or peer pressure. 😄

Al,
yes I’ve heard the arguments against silver.

To be sure it's clear, my previous post was not making or implying an argument against silver. 

It was simply saying that the fact that silver has a slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity than copper, which is often cited as an argument in favor of silver, is very unlikely to be the reason for whatever sonic differences may occur between a silver cable and a copper cable.

Regards,
-- Al
 

Almarg
So if a silver cable sounds better in a given application than a copper cable, the slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity of silver compared to copper is very unlikely to be the reason.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that silver never sounds like copper, not under any conditions. Of course it would also be fair to say all silver cables don't sound alike. Nor do all copper cables sound alike. Nor do amorphous conductors like carbon sound like metal conductors. 

Dynaquest, of course you found the article to be objective.

Al,
yes I’ve heard the arguments against silver. We could play that game all day. You upsize your copper and shorten the length, then I upsize my silver and shorten the length. The problem is, that’s not real world. We don’t want to shorten our speaker cables and move our speakers closer together. Who goes out and buys one gauge bigger copper cables then laughs at all the money he saved over silver?

Silver conducts better than copper. But what about the other factor? When copper tarnishes, it reduces conductivity. When silver tarnishes, it does not reduce conductivity. a couple of months ago I bought a pair of interconnects that are a simple 24 gauge silver single conductor design. I have a pair of 24 gauge copper pair and the improvement with the silver pair is ridiculous.

I don’t really care what’s going on at the atomic level to make this happen. I haven’t pulled out my various meters to measure and given myself triple blind tests or gone to the doctor to test my hearing. the difference isn’t subtle. I don’t have to strain to hear the difference. Now, I have some decent Parasound Halo gear and Sierra 2 speakers. I have no idea if these IC’s would work on a Denon receiver or one from 1972.

I don’t care. It works. The sound is superior by far. If it had not been, I had the option to send them back. It’s no big deal, they weren't that much.

Yeah, I read it all.

"The psyco-placebo effect personified.".

My point exactly. Based on his opening, the author was intent on proving there are no differences, thus he proclaimed to hear none.

Do you think that your trite and worn out contentions, repeated ad-nauseam, are helpful to anyone, dynaquest?   

Dave

I found that article specifically objective.  Did you read more than the first and last sentences.  Anyone who finds this test less than objective just doesn't want to see/hear/believe the results.  The psyco-placebo effect personified.  

And it starts:

"Most of you know I’m not a believer in the sonic enhancements attributed to fancy, expensive cables."

Then it ends:

"If there is an “unbelievable” change, someone is juicing the results."

I love objective reporting.

Dave

Good succinct article on cables

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5885

"manufactures don't have a box of capacitors and another box of audio cables in the factory and start the day by saying "mmmm, let me see if this sounds nice" - everything is built to specifications using components that have a range of tolerances."

Exactly why it is up to the customer to experiment.

Dave

Todd,

I would actually say our hearing is pretty unreliable when it comes to infinitessimally small differences and more often than not we think we hear something because we are expecting to!

This is why designers rely on instrumentation to test and fine tune products for QC and not ears. Otherwise everything would be handbuilt by craftspeople hand selecting what they felt sounded the best. Generally everything in audio manufacturing is prescribed right down to each capacitor - manufacturers don’t have a box of capacitors and another box of audio cables in the factory and start the day by saying "mmmm, let me see if this sounds nice" - everything is built to specifications using components that have a range of tolerances.

Anyone who frets about 99.9999 pure copper in their cables ought to worry about about the typical tolerances on capacitors, which is 20%!!!!! Worse - most capacitors vary performance with voltage as well as temperature!!!! Maybe those fretful special quality cable folks ought to be worried about controlling room temperatures to within 0.01 degrees or at least placing their components in a tightly temperature and humidity controlled cabinet.

213runnin 1-23-1017
... did you know that silver conducts electricity significantly better than copper? Superior conductivity is only one of its benefits. Why don’t you google  this, you’d be surprised at the other main benefit.

The fact that silver has a lower resistivity/higher conductivity than copper is often mentioned in audiophile discussions.  But to provide some perspective:

For a given length and gauge, the resistance of silver is in the vicinity of about 6 to 8% lower than the resistance of copper.  However, simply making the copper conductor one gauge size larger will reduce its resistance by about 20%.  Also, making the copper conductor more than 8% shorter than the silver conductor would result in the copper conductor having less resistance than the silver conductor, even if both conductors are the same gauge.  Finally, in the case of line-level analog interconnects resistance is almost always insignificant anyway, in a home audio system, because it is a completely miniscule fraction of the load impedance.

So if a silver cable sounds better in a given application than a copper cable, the slightly higher conductivity/lower resistivity of silver compared to copper is very unlikely to be the reason.

Regards,
-- Al
  

"I won’t dismiss it out of hand until I experiment myself."

That statement right there negates all of the speculative bluster throughout this thread. Well said, Todd.

Dave