geoff, actually you used that joke a few times, as you do all your others. itsjustme
was fortunate enough to only hear it twice.
was fortunate enough to only hear it twice.
Who says cables don't make a difference?
Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables".
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
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Cables do make difference and sound different, is any asking price worth it, yes till a certain point of price\value. Friend of mine has his system connected with stealth cables (dream royal for speakers (Tidal), V16 as interconnects (Constellation Pre+Amp) and Helios for phono (Davinci turntable and Nagra classic phono) they are very good but are they X times better than my cables (Cards Clear), don’t think so, not even close, it just different sounding |
“ You have to have good connections between things. Everything in the world is connections. When you have good connections you can build structure. When you have good structure you can build systems.” The above is from our three-year-old grandson playing around in the “electrical connection“ room at the local children’s museum. (Pre-COVID of course) I think it might have something to do with this discussion, but then again I don’t know what he’s talking about about half the time |
To the original question. The people who claim a cable can make a difference are the ones that can hear the difference when a better cable is used. I’ve come to the conclusion anti cable propaganda is associated with a group of people who’s hearing isn’t capable of hearing at a level where a good cable can make a difference. |
"...anti cable propaganda is associated with a group of people...'Not just any group. It is a Special Interest Group. https://www.bluetooth.com/about-us/vision/ |
And one could easily claim that most differences that audiophiles claim to hear between cables are just that, claims. Difference is people who make that claim would have more controlled experimental data on their side than you. It’s best not to insult others from a shaky position. What’s a more supportable position to assume you have infallible audio memory or to assume it is fallible? Cue Mr. Pebbles with some pithy yet predictably inane and wrong comment. hiendmmoe85 posts07-04-2020 1:03pmTo the original question. The people who claim a cable can make a difference are the ones that can hear the difference when a better cable is used. I’ve come to the conclusion anti cable propaganda is associated with a group of people who’s |
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Exupgh2, I see a lot of you “pro-boutique cable” guys seem to be content that cables sound “different”. But I see very few posts that say that their boutique cables sound better than what they were using before, just different. My question is this: do you cable swappers assume that the higher the price the better the cable will sound? Or do you rely on blind chance and hope that your new cable sounds better than your old one? How many audiophiles just look on expensive cables as merely bling? I ask because I really don’t know. While I have tried a number of expensive interconnects and speaker cables that have been loaned to me, and have, of course noted that many of them impart a slightly different “flavor” to the sound, I’ve never heard one that I found actually sounded better than what was there before. I also noted that the differences disappeared (in my consciousness) after a couple of days. Right now, I have an AudioQuest USB cable between the MacBook Pro that I use as a music server in my main system, and my recent build “Mark Ii” Yggdrasil DAC. The USB cable is borrowed and is black and has a 72 volt battery hanging off of it which is connected to the cable only on one end of the battery (IOW, not a complete circuit). Initially, I noticed that it sounded a bit different from the “printer cable” quality USB cable that I had been using -not necessarily better, you understand, just different in ways that I found difficult to quantify, or indeed identify. It’s been in my system for several months now, and I no longer notice the differences. I suppose that I will notice the change again when I go back to my “printer cable”. Actually I prefer SPDIF for digital between server and DAC over USB. I suspect that SPDIF has a lower error rate than USB, but I don’t know that for certain. |
LOL, I use the USB cable that came with my integrated amp. I don't think digital out sounds any better than USB anymore. It's simply my subjective opinion. I always used and thought coax sounded the best until my most recent foray into using USB. I think it's improved a lot the last few years for audio. |
I love the smell of cable threads in the morning. Now cable breaking-in threads ... that's the smell of napalm. But I do notice some improvement. Before it was like "cables don't make any difference ... blah blah blah". Now at least the difference is acknowledged to the tune of "difference but not worth the asking price". I have a dream that one day cable-break-in will be accepted like one their own. |
Like any audio component cables should be considered a Black Box when attempting to find the impact on SQ. But this can be vexing as cables and power cords need time to break in, otherwise what’s the point. It’s not what anybody wants to do - wait a week or two to find out what the cables sound like. So there’s that. Then, after the cables are burned in, what is the cables’ impact on noise and distortion, frequency bandwidth, dynamics? This can be a very long process, trying to decide which cables to use. Perhaps you just buy the cables you fell in love 💕 with, maybe at a show or a rave review, and live with them. Sure, that’s one way to do it. |
Geoffkait; wire “burning-in”? You’re pulling our legs, right? Would you please tell me what there is in a piece of coax to burn-in? Don’t tell me that it’s the dielectric that’s forming. That occurs in seconds when it is applicable. In cable, It’s not. What’s more likely is that the component that’s “burning-in” is you, the listener. You are getting used to the new sound of the new cable. The cable hasn’t changed one iota. |
About burn-in cable.... A company very well known Morrow cables, recommend to his customers to wait at least 200 hundred hours before returning a cable and compare it to others one... They gives themselves the trouble to cook their cable themselves before selling them... Now suppose you are Mr. Morrow himself , why in the hell ! would you give to yourself this trouble and to yours customers too, advising them to burn the cables you sold to them or burning it for them... Why ? Ockham razor parsimonious explanation principle suggest to me that Mr. Morrow listening cables all his life know what he is talking about, dont you think? And dont you think a sane mind would spare himself this trouble if he can? It is not scientific proof for sure here.... Only reasonnable thinking.... By the way i experimented this phenomena myself burning his interconnect Ma 3...This is not also a scientific proof....Only a testimony.... But wait a minute,if you had hundred of similar testimonies, is it not the beginning of a proof in a court of law, compared to a debunker obsession with his misconception of science ? « Burn the cable, the boat is ready» -Groucho Marx |
"Now suppose you are Mr. Morrow himself , why in the hell ! would you give to yourself this trouble and to yours customers too, advising them to burn the cables they sold to you or burning them for them... Why ?"There may be a few reasons and one may be marketing. You have 60 days to return cables, but you are not allowed to return them before day #30. It makes it less likely that you will return it at all even for sheer inconvenience, missing deadlines, forgetfulness, and whatever else. Once you decide to skip though those hoops and return some of the cables there is a 10% restocking fee. That may set you back $700 for speaker cables (up to 3 meter length). |
Glupson i thought about that advantage too.... But think about the trouble you give to yourself for 30 years in the business, burn in your cables and giving to others the same trouble KNOWING that this is bullshit? In all probability the few return cables you spare yourself with dont equal all this trouble... the only explanation that hit the road for me is that Mr. Morrow experiment that himself and know that for his cables the burn-in is not a myth.... This is the only reasonnable explanation... And all the testimonies in this direction cannot be explained by an induced mass placebo effect taking place in several phases .... By the way in these 2 hundred hours the cable audible effect pass indeed trough different stages that any customer can observe.... |
mahgister, I do not know anything about value of those cables, but do propose that one of the reasons for that approach is simply business. Mr. Morrow is in the business of earning money from cable sales. If not, he would have been giving them for free. In this very competitive cable market, just like any other manufacturer, he needs to distance his products from others'. Emphasis on cable burn-in may be that approach. Not having money-back return policy would make many potential customers skip his offerings so it would not be a good idea. Understandingly, he would be better off with less returns. Offering return policy, but making sure that it is discouraged under the explanation "you need time to settle" or whatever else, could yield multiple benefits. "Story" (burn-in) with the cable, return policy (not to alienate potential customers), and a few hurdles to skip over while trying to exercise one's right to return, and you may get good sales with less returns. It is not an unusual business/marketing approach even without starting to talk about any real/perceived functionality. In fact, why would he do it any other way? |
You can return any cable from any company immediately after one hour listening if you are not glad with them...Money back... Then the burn-in advice will not save you much returns.... Altough your explanation seem rational in marketing term, the trouble of all this process is pain in the ass even for Morrow....And it is not the majority of companies out there that advise us to let the cable burn in....It is only a few.... Think about all the troubles associated with this "useless" process only to bet that a few customers will not ask for the money after 200 hundred hours of unsatisfaction? I cannot think that Morrow lied to all customers for a few bucks, i think that he love cables, make it a business, is proud of his cables and listen to all kind of cables to compare with his own....The more probable way to explain this burn-in clause, is to think that he experiment it himself at beginning....Like me when i purchase one at my own surprize.... Which customer will not ask for his money back for a cable he dont like, after 200 hours of listening , if he was paid many hundred dollars, even thousand dollars ? |
mahgister, I am not sure why he does it, but delaying the possibility of return does make it less convenient and less likely to happen. Any manufacturer has to find something to make her/his products stand out from the crowd. Cable burn-in may be one of those things. It may be a trouble to do it, but it is a part of the business. It takes a lots of people at Coca-Cola to arrange for billboards, TV ads, etc. to make you feel connected to those smiling people drinking their Coca-Cola. It is a trouble, but they have been doing it for decades with one goal. To sell Coca-Cola. It does help if manufacturer believes in what she/he sells so she/he may be more honestly enthusiastic about the product. If it were not about burn-in, what else would we be talking when mentioning Morrow cables? You see, even in these few posts, the hype and talk is about the burn-in. The story. The selling point. |
Aside from a basic business approach and the well know phenomenon there is always a certain percentage that never return anything the 200 hour or however many hour break in gives the customer time to get used to the product. I had a speaker manufacturer tell me it took a couple hundred hours break in, for me not the speakers they would be optimal when I got them since they test them all before shipping. |
mahgister, "Which customer will not ask for his money back for a cable he dont like, after 200 hours of listening , if he was paid many hundred dollars, even thousand dollars ?" Not exactly cables (I do not put much value on them), but I have not returned some things I did not like, regardless of cost. It would not have been worth my time, effort, energy, whatever, at that time. |
mglik, "Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". There are still those who believe cables don’t make a difference." You’re right, I’m one of them. After having wasted £100s on various cables to no effect (other than damaging the RCAs on the back of my CD player and amplifier) I don’t find it funny it all. This is now the oldest scam in audio, and buyers need to be aware. You can have the flashiest, thickest, tightest and most unwieldy cables possible but all you really seek to gain are damaged terminals. That's not the difference I was looking for. |
Truly people invest money in cables, and they make a little difference, a little one compared to any other way to improve our system....I know it by experience... But cables can also make a negative difference also.... This is particularly true for low or mid hi-fi audio system but even for top of the game one also.... Dont pay too much, choose them right, and forget them to turn your thinking to REAL audio problems to solve... It is not necessary if you are deceived or frustrated to equate all cables with lamp cord either.... :) |
IMCE there is one documented, peer reviewed study of audio cabling that has failed to make an appearance in any of our favorite magazines (or those of the medical profession?). Where is the tech/skeptic proof that ALL cables sound the same? They should be able to measure Home Depot zip cord and ANY cable from any other manufacturer and prove that the output from any of them is exactly the same as the output from all of them. I would at least read their study. I wonder: Do the docs in the cardiac cath-lab read mags like "Absolute Thrombosis" or "Stentophile" to keep up? I know for a fact that the MD's have moved beyond zip cord and Belkin plug strips. Why, if everything comes out the same? |
Most medical equipment will use fairly inexpensive shielded AC cables but that is as much to prevent noise into other equipment as noise into the one with the cord. Most medical wire is application specific and there are no voodoo claims, there are hard scientific reasons, measurements and results. Much of the requirements are purely mechanical, but some are for extremely low signal levels with high impedance where noise susceptibility is much much higher than anything in audio.
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