I am very sorry for your loss Donjr, as I am sure many other Audiogon folks are too.
You really can't compare numbers between alcohol and x as there are hundreds of millions more users of alcohol. Of course no parent who losses a child to ectasy, would really believe that it is harmless. |
Donjr, no need to apologize for your post. i'm sorry to hear about you and your wifes loss. My heart goes out to the both of you. I wish there was something else I could say to bring some sort of peace to your wife. |
Who needs drugs when you have kids |
I didn't mean to be a downer and i apologive for the post. I thought I'd let anyone out there with college aged kids know that ecstasy has the potential to be a game changer. The worst thing about it is that the kids dont think its bad. I've had kids argue with me about it. It couldn't possibly be bad if it used to be prescribed. To be quite honest, if it were popular when I was 20 I'm sure I'd have tried it. Also, compared to the number of kids that die from alcohol its rather harmless. |
This thread just chewed the fun out of my gum. |
My step son overdosed on ecstasy. It might not have been an OD per se. He was a senior at SUNY Cortland as a math major. He and some school friends decided to go to a concert in Chicago during some time off at school. It was Halloween. They were dressed in costume for the concert. It was very hot at the venue and he was dehydrated. He passed out. He was just about dead when they got him to the hospital. In the ER, they sliced his chest open to massage his heart. While this was happening, hundreds of miles away in Rochester NY, I was speeding down the highway at 2 am with my wife to the airport. My wife is a nurse. On our way to the airport she got a call from the hospital saying she better hurry. When she got off the phone she looked at me shivering in tears and said that Michael is going to die. When my wife got to the hospital in Chicago, her son was dead. She demanded that she see her son when she arrived at the hospital. He was splayed wide open covered in blood. That's the last memory and vision she has of her first baby.
After this happened we wanted to know why this happened. Michael was a straight A student and was going to go to grad school in Chicago. He wanted to teach college level mathematics. The ecstasy community I reached out to ( yes, theres proponents of ecstasy) told me that people don't die from ecstasy. Ecstasy used to be prescribed to couples with marital problems years ago and never has anyone's death been attributed to ecstasy. When we finally got the death certificate in the mail, the cause of death was an overdose from MDMA.
I've never heard of anyone dying from pot. My niece tells me everyone in college does ecstasy. If you have young kids, try to find a way to talk to them about ecstasy. They all think its an okay drug because it used to be prescribed. I have a death certificate to prove that's not true. If that's not enough, I can take you to visit Michael. |
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During a recent 9 year stint where I designed and ran a soundsystem for a monthly concert series, we also did a local cable TV interview show with the musicians playing a few live songs I'd record (single large diaphragm condenser mic mixed to a high end CD burner with light stereo reverb in some cases). I wasn't familiar with all the artists before taping, so I'd be sitting there at the board with my headphones on and the artist would start playing something that would blow my mind...John Gorka, Lucy Kaplanski, Garrison Star, and many others...a really intense thing...unforgettable. |
I like this thread. It's giving us all a little deeper background about one another.
Just for the record, I have been moved to tears from music. If I didn't have that capacity, I know that stereo equipment wouldn't be so ridiculously important to me. Music touches my soul. Always has. |
Chalk one up for the bleeding fingers and artists. |
I almost cried at a concert...I got my finger stuck in a speaker stand while setting up a sound system for a Pat Donahue show. After the show I told Pat that this concert had a strong effect on my guitar playing...he thanked me and then I told him it was due to the fact that I SMASHED MY FINGER. |
Nice article. Being driven to “tears of joy” is a normal human condition. As a father, I have witnessed some pretty amazing achievements by my children that have left me quite literally in tears. Some people’s emotions, however, are much more fragile than others. Look at John Boehner I suggest that even the greatest musical production in the world wouldn't cause many audiophiles to cry. I love – absolutely love – music and all things hi-fi/stereo, but I will never cry over it!! I’m just saying .!!!! Wink, wink! |
Wait...in denial about what? Wait...you're right. I admit to everything. |
Okay, so make up your mind. |
As with all things in life it's about balance. Too much of anything is bad. But its easy to fool yourself.
One needs a good trusty compass to steer through life. Some people get dealt a tough hand. But you can't let it be your excuse disintegrate. Drugs dull the senses on alsorts of levels, sometimes for good, but eventually mainly for bad. |
Wolf, you're responding to this thread. I don't believe you. I knew you are in denial as soon as you stated the word 'often'. Had you not, your post would have concurred with mine. |
People in intensive care need drugs. Just saying... |
To make your herbal recreation choices based on the fact that some people shouldn't use it since they clearly have a propensity for abuse of it, shouldn't matter to the rest of us. I don't want to sound like a NORML crusader because I don't care enough, but my sphere of friends, past and present, including ridiculously successful doctors, lawyers, writers, priests, atheists, musicians, parents, the childless, etc., have no issue with pot. They use it rarely or often...cancer survivor or audiophile...and they are all FINE. |
That was the condensed version. As the church lady said, it's way more fun not being stoned. |
Reefer Madness. There really are alternative universes it seems. |
Csontos, I can relate, my friend. I've been smoking heavily since 16. I'm 34 now and have only been clean for about 5 months. I have a craving every once in awhile, and only by the grace of God was I ever able to stop in the first place. I agree with every word you said. I live here in Colorado where it's everywhere and relatively inexpensive. Many lives will be ruined because of it. It's pretty sad. I don't think you should take peoples choices or rights away, but I don't think pot is as harmless as most people would like to think it is. Sure, in moderation (once or twice a week) it may not be a big deal, but for many of us once or twice a week turns into once or twice a day before 10 a.m. for the rest of our lives. Being high of weed never added to my enjoyment of music or my stereo either. It's actually the opposite. Being sober and clear minded makes me enjoy the music, and so many other things that used to just go totally unnoticed. |
I don't mind memory loss as it simply allows me to experience things multiple times as if they were new. Yeah, Wolf, that's the upside of dementia. You make new friends every day!!! ;-) |
Do you have children? What? Yea. My daughter came home one day after school and rhymed off what she'd done that day. I said 'that's great honey'. Next day she came home and gave me an update. By the way she was looking at me I knew there was something I forgot. Then her demeanor changed...like I don't care. She was about 19 then. My son was 16. That's when what a friend told me 15 years earlier finally hit home. He didn't rhyme off all the current list of cons. He simply stated,'you don't need it, Pete. Why are you doing it?' Right then and there I got my metal Dutch cookie canister I used to store my paraphernalia and weed in, and dumped it in the trash. That was 1996. I was stoned for 20 years straight. I had no short term memory. I could not hold a conversation. As soon as my turn came round for the second time, I'd have to ask, invariably, 'what are we talking about?'. It's only funny the first time. Not only that, but my tongue was frozen. I was slurring my speech like a drunkard. And I'm so sick of hearing, 'well, it affects everyone differently'. Bullshit! When I would be at a dealer, there quite often was other guys there also waiting in line. Turning and panning the room, they looked just as wasted as me. I've encountered lots of people in the same condition so you're not going to fool me. Those advocating it's legalization just don't want to face the truth, period. And there are not enough people around who do it so infrequently to not be affected and thereby to warrant it's legalization. There's more than one way to become addicted. It doesn't have to be physical.
It took two and a half years after quitting to regain my short term memory and to be able to speak normally. But actually, imo, the most important effect was that it arrests your development. It isolates you. You really are by yourself in a crowd. When I quit, I was a 16 year old in a 36 year old's body. My peers were teenagers.
So I know you guys know in your heart of hearts that it's something you shouldn't be doing.
No case studies? Take a wild guess why. I'm your case study! |
I don't mind memory loss as it simply allows me to experience things multiple times as if they were new. |
Apparently zinc is useful in maintaining a healthy memory. But you have to remember to take it:) |
Wolf_garcia, lol. Obviously you forgot to mention short and medium term memory loss too! |
"So what is the loss you claim when attempting to benefit from an otherwise useless experience?"...mostly vitamin B. |
Not sure what that apology was for but Wolf, it seems you're our case study here. You've confirmed the inefficacy of drugs or "herbs" as pertains to the inspiration of art or at the very least music. So what is the loss you claim when attempting to benefit from an otherwise useless experience? Just curious. |
Wolf_garcia,
Probably best not to mention the lame parody. The parody is a parody because that image became over used and filtered down to the average. Lame is lame of course.
But musicians with vision and skills are a very different thing. The guys that learned their chops and put life experience into their performance is what I suspect left their mark on us. Not the navel gazers...
Sure the word "drugs" covers too many things. Acid, speed, coke, pot, ecstasy, and so on all effected the various specific musical movements of their time. It's a paradigm shift from what went before.
We could probably draw a simplistic table or flow chart. I.e
Ecstasy = Dance music
Speed = Punk etc etc. |
You can smoke pot and noodle all day, but few other drugs allow that...sort of speaks to the "lumping together" nonesense of the term "drugs." The image of the "creative stoned musician dude" is a lame parody to most pro musicians who have experience and chops, and can force the overuse of quotation marks. |
Is the answer to the OP, probably the people who made the music?
Drugs/booze and music are linked. Both in the creation and observation of it. It is about finding boundaries and removing them. Finding new ground or a new interpretation or a new language or even courage. Removing boundaries is sometimes about removing ones self. Hense drug use in music.
Obviously you do not need them, but isn't it odd that so many great pieces of music or creative movements were created under the influence of the fashionable drugs of the time? |
Wolf, perhaps you are exagerating for effect. I've heard drug-fueled improvisations that would not have happened otherwise. Better than straight? Very rarely, and never, really, if clean, error-free playing is what you're after. But sometimes something new and different comes out. |
Some notes on drugs and music: The bebop era jazz world was devastated by heroin and I (and pretty much every informed fan) assume a LOT more great music would have been produced without it, with many less dead musicians. I've been a musician since the 60s and can say without hesitation that drugs NEVER helped any serious music along...maybe somebody was inspired by an acid trip or was helped to stay awake by some stimulant, but to say "weed or drugs" played (or plays) an important role in the art itself minimizes the effort it takes to make good music, and is an insult to working musicians. Alcohol and hard drug use by "bohemian" artists and writers might be a fact of life but certainly has never helped the art or writing, except in the imagination of the delusional. |
Csontos,
Arthur Conan Doyle who was not only a successful writer, was also physician with access to all RX you can ever imagine. Hence Morphine was his inspirational substance to write storries.
Using recreational drugs is classic for many bohemian talents unfotrunately.
Should we know more writers and composers private lives or should we stop and say that 'there's a fact' and it's been there quite a while.
Speaking of alcohole, this substance is important at any stage no matter stage genre or style of music. |
"Really? Is Alice In Wonderland the only novel ever written?"
That was fiction? |
Really? Is Alice In Wonderland the only novel ever written? |
Without weed or drugs we would not have most of the classic rock or even some classical music we now enjoy and probably most of what is new today. |
Hey Cymbop do you by any chance have a Bebophone? mmm hmmm. :-) |
Csontos, I suppose your right.
Wolf, I stand corrected. Huh, I guess e doesn't eat away your brain. Just messes up the receptors. Damn that DARE program... |
Hey Cymbop do you by any chance have a Bebophone? |
I was referring to an insane and unsubstantiated bit of bad science that has been covered elsewhere ad nauseum, and doctors have NOT found tiny holes in the brains of E users (http://www.thefix.com/content/brain-holes-and-other-meth-myths), although meth clearly leads to junk filled single wide trailers and filthy wife beater clad toothless weirdos...and there is absolutely NO substantiated non biased evidence that pot makes you "dumb"...unless you're kinda dumb to begin with, in which case it might make you more self aware and allow you to be all the dumb you can be. |
You've got your wires crossed. Do you really think super smart people with no issues are going to be willing to compromise their mental acuity for more than experiment?
BTW, it does a lot more than just make you dumb, fat, and lazy. You can't not know that. |
Yeah, I had a neuropsych professor who didn't seem to be anti-recreational-drugs in general, but told us to stay away from the E. Too much neurotoxicity over time. The reefers, though? No problem. |
That's the king of the one liners so far:) |
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on"
Dean Martin |
Wolf, I do believe e eats away your brain. Doctors have done brain scans of people who have used e many times and the scans show tiny holes in the persons brain. Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, also known as mdma, molly, e etc. contains methampetamine which eats away your muscle tissue, enamel on your teeth, your bones, and yes your brain too in addition to making your hair fall out. Pot just makes you dumb, fat and lazy unless of course you get high then mountain bike 20 miles, run 5 and lift weights daily, which I did, in which case it only makes you dumb. Of course it's relative, so if your super smart to begin with, you may still be smarter than most of the totally sober people I work with :-) |
If T clicks his heals, can he get home from there too? |
If you need them, moving to Washington or Colorado might be a good tweak! :-) |
The story of misinformation about E (a drug I have not used nor do I intend to) is interesting. Some idiot published a fabricated story about E rotting your brain and was utterly discredited soon after, but the myth remains. Misinformation about otherwise "lower harm" (not harmless of course) drugs does no favors for anybody, and acceptance of whatever Big Pharma's lobby promotes seems unquestioned...and that's the world we live in. I noticed a little advertisement in the corner of the front page (!) of today's NY Times for Johnny Walker Blue, which when used properly will make you slightly buzzed, but otherwise is absolutely toxic, but an accepted toxic nonetheless...E and pot don't stand a chance in a death challenge with that stuff. |
I need a Rx for some of that Afghani Kush for my IBS !!!!!! |
