Dear Thuchan, Knowing the paradise that you are in at the moment, I am envious despite the fact that I am listening to the Cardinal called FR-7f sitting on his FR-66s throne :^) How long are you spending in the 'clouds' looking down upon us mere mortals? Cheers Henry |
Dear friends, As is usualy the case I noticed in retrospect that my story about the 'little Peter' may be seen as impolite. Your intention was of course to help. I should add my own consideration. I was aware of the correlation between Rauls recommendation of some cart and the consequence for the price on ebay as well for the availability. So I bought as fast and as many as I could. But my intention was not to accumulate MM carts but to select 1 or 2 from what I got later.The search for the carts become addictive and recently also thwart. So I thought that this is the time to make some decisions. The AT 7V made this decison easy for me.I will consider just one MM more as a spare. I hope this explains my point.
Regards, |
Dear Thuchan, enjoy the sun. I certainly do not want to spoil your anticipation for the SPU w/inbuilt XFRs, but don't hang your expectations too high. It is neither a pope nor a king nor a cardinal. Rather a wandering priest with little insight in the game as a whole. See you for lunch at La Cucina in 12 days. Cheers, D. |
Dear Halcro, your cardinal will be recognized one day as being a very good candidate for the next to-be-elected pope ....;-) ... despite the fact that in his heart a very short and tiny coil is moving. Cheers, D. |
Dear Dlaloum/Fleib/Lewm: IMHO we need that the cartridge " always be in touch with the grooves following this abrupt/challenge road.
Between other things cartridge compliance is a " key ", both vertical and lateral one, for the stylus tip be " there ". I can't say for sure ( like Fleib. ) which one is more important because depend on so many other cartridge/LP subjects.
In the other side, we almost all are accustoming to take the cartridge manufacturer compliance number as the vertical ( dynamic or static ) one. As a fact almost all cartridge manufacturers ( vintage/today ) listed the vertical compliance and only a few of them listed vertical and lateral compliance as:
Ortofon, AKG, Arcam, Decca, Dual, DynavectorEmpire, Fulton, Grace, Microacoustics, Nagatron, Supex, Yamaha, etc, etc. ( these information from Audio/Stereo Review year's bible. )
In all cases the vertical value was higher or even/same than the lateral one ( including Ortofon. ) other than Yamaha and Dynavector where the lateral value was the higher one.
I think that J.Carr has a lot to " speaks " about and I'm sure too that all of us will be pleased and we appreciate if he comes " here " to put additgional " light " on this " cloudly " vertical/lateral compliance overall subject. Thank you in advance JC.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Fleib: A little on delay but on the hearing-loss subject and following from your post:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4642&4&&st4600
I think we all know that we hear through our whole body, we perceive the sound through the body. I can tell you that this " through the body hearing process " is really complex and even that I don't read the article you mentioned I had experiences where what we are wearing affect what we are hearing/perceiving.
Any one of us can make an exercise: wearing all cotton/wool clothe against syntetic fiber like poliester/rayon or the like. We can hear differences in what we heard with different build material clothes.
In the past I bring here the " naked fashion " to home audio listening that was an extreme " fashion " but we can listening too dressed but with " shorts " against lomg pants.
All these is a " fun excercise " that tell us that our brain/ears are not the only ones at all on the hearing perception.
I have to say that almost always I listening my system wearing natural fibers ( wool/cotton. ) on my clothe.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: Good that you found out that LPM420STR that on specs " looks " similar than the M320 but the cartridge weight.
I could think that you are enjoying this new Acutex and that its performance has the Acutex high quality as its other family's members.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Siniy123: ++++ " http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4689&4#4689 " +++++
I agree with you. I like other persons already try these kind of mixtures and as you I conclude that the best performance/"coherence" is achieved with the own stylus cartridge design.
The voicing on top cartridge models is IMHO extremely important because is " there " where the differences ( it does not matter which ones. ) comes. It is during that cartridge voicing proccess where the designer " tame " the " colors " for ach top cartridge according his quality performance targets and when we change the " equilibrum " ( when we change the cartridge original stylus for other model. ) that each top cartridge model has intrisical then we are hearing a different " cartridge ".
It does not matters that specs ( mechanical/electrical. ) were similar on different same manufacturer cartridges that voicing put the " name " to each cartridge model.
Anyway, the cartridge/stylus " mixtures " it contribute to our audio learning curve experiences.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Travbrow: The Nagatron 9600 original stylus is almost impossible to " catch " so I did not and I think Idon't have the opportunity to hear it.
What I'm thinking seriously and due to the 9600 very good perfromance is to re-tip it through VdH.
Yes, you are right the 9600 has extra " distortions " than the AT-24 that's a better tracker than the Nagatron. All in all good performer the 9600. Yes, its added " colorations " could be addictive.
Btw, I read on other forum that the Nagatron stylus that all of us have is spheric/conical and not elliptical as we are thinking. I have my 100x+ microscope out of work to confirm or not that but maybe some one of you could help us on this stylus shape Nagatron subject.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Halcro, Dear Dertonearm, only for another week long I may enjoy days of slow life. You can imagine what it means running at my beach right now and then again running in my business when I will be rocketed back into the fast world as we all know it. Yes the FR-7f may be a real Kardinal. I heard the story of an aimlessly wandering lonely priest who suddenly got enlighted and turned into a Pope... is this really possibly today...
best & fun only |
While probable overyone would like to have the 'Thuchams problem' my convinction is that abundance is a real problem. Consider only the dilemma of what 'king', 'pope' or 'cardinal' to choose for this evening LP listening. There are still some Arabs who own an harem. However they seem to be more interested in horses. Thuchan, It is 'impossible'to have more kings in Germany than just one. Since Otto von Bismarck it is not even possible to have just one prince in Bavaria. While you are against 'my' cardinals this way you have more possibilties to rank your carts. Dertonarm try to spoil your axpectation reg. some Ortofon but this is only because he realy thinks that FR-7f ( I thought that FR-7fz was even better) is the pope or 'the king' of all carts. But the realy strange thing is that Halcro was seduced by Dertonarm to declare his LO MC cart (aka FR-7f) as a çardinal in this thread about the MM nirvana. Regards, |
Dear Nandric, I know at least two Arabs who own an harem - Raul and Timetel. Both may have more MMs than everyone else here. If you have such a choice you do not know with which one you should start your entertainment - lucky guys! I think a real prophet will abandon his harem and go for the simple life - whatever this could mean, also on carts... Agree with you there is only one King but there might be also a "Kaiser". And ah yes - we forgot the princes. My god it becomes very complex.
I remember someone having asked me recently: "Eckart why are you not happy with one table, one arm and one diamond". Should I?
best & fun only |
Dear Nandric, As this thread mentions both MMs and MCs in its title, I believe it is permissible to listen to, and talk about both :^) Besides which, since obtaining and setting up a second turntable and providing four separate arms with readily interchangeable headshells, I have discovered that the differences between the very top "Cardinal" cartridges, whether MM or LOMC, are quite ephemeral and not easy to differentiate without intense listening sessions with the ability to switch readily back and forth?
The surprising factor to me, was that a cartridge's abilities or characteristics, was discernible more readily in one direction than the other? I can happily switch from a 'better' cartridge to 'lesser' one without hearing any noticeable 'loss' in quality yet, after acclimatizing........switching back......the 'improvement' was easily evident. I have been terribly confused at this apparent anomaly, and have been carefully testing this phenomenon over the last few months. I find I can sit happily listening to a quality LOMC cartridge (Universe, XV-1s, FR-7f) and thinking......."it can't get much better than this?"......only to find, after a long listening session, a quick switch to a top MM cartridge, makes me sigh and involuntarily utter the onomatopoeic ......."Ahhhhh' |
Regards, Thuchan: To borrow from Aristotle: "A good wife will make a man happy. A bad wife will make him a philosopher". Mine are all, to some degree, compliant and those which are not suitably responsive are put away in a dark place where they can be neither seen or heard.
Cartridges are, of course, our topic.
Peace,
|
Dear Timeltel, this is a wise man's speaking. Using the deduction scheme it may not mean necessarily that every philospher has a bad wife or "got his job" because of his bad wife... Please apologize for my bad English... is it right that all your compliant wives you put in the dark? I like your humor. I thought you have some Arabic roots !?
of course - only about cartridges - MMs ...
best & fun only |
Dear Professor, Are you not confusing Aristoteles with the pope? Like the most philosopher the pope has opinions about everything but no specific knowledge about anything. But it is true that those old Greek were very fond of the 'metal methafors'. So we are very suprised to hear that the 'goldhonest' John robbed some bank as we are to see the 'ironstrong Peter' not able to walk. Have those 'good wifes' this goodness quality as a permanent 'essence' like, say, steel? I thought that they all are complaining about their wardrobe.
Dear Thuchan, the learning curve of our indispensable Raul pressupose a huge differentiation capacity. Ie searching for 'the best of the best' imply many comparisions but to tell about those we need the adequate vocabulary (aka 'huge kind'). So instead to see a prince as adding to complexity you should welcome the added possibilty to tell us about your own ranking . We may be more confused with all those 'kings' of yours than get some idea what you are talking about. I already refered to the institutional problems with your 'kings'.
Regards, |
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Dear Travbrow: If the Nagatron 9600 non-original stylus that came with our samples is an spheric one instead elliptical then maybe the average/mediocre tracking distortions that the cartridge showed could be because a mistracking due to a " wrong " VTF set up.
I was running it at 1.25 grs but normally a spheric stylus needs higher VTF than eliptical or line contact ones. I think that now is in order a " new " test with a higher VTF, maybe 1.5 grs+ and see what happen. Other factor to take in count is that due that the cartridge stylus is not the original one maybe the compliance is different too.
Btw, which VTF are you using?
IMHO the cartridge is so good that is worth the effort to try the VTF tests.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Halcro, As a architect you probable have many confrontations with the lawyers? This thread mentioned MC and MM carts but is about MM carts. Your way out will not do for a real lawyer (grin).
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, I have to express a compliment to Raul. Either he is getting really tolerant with me (us) or he is just ignoring my (our) contributions which is not a bad attitude at all and I have a very good understanding for this. i need to make it really short. On MMs I already expressed which ones I regard as my King(s). Another Kardinal is the FR-7fz. My Kaiser is the Olympos. Two princes are the London Reference and the Goldfinger v2. There are some forgotten princes I need to bring out of (Timetel's) the dark zone. I hope this is somehow helpful.
So in return what about you?
best & fun only |
All in all good performer the 9600. Yes, its added " colorations " could be addictive.
Dear Raul – is your armor starting to show cracks ? I find I can sit happily listening to a quality LOMC cartridge (Universe, XV-1s, FR-7f) and thinking......."it can't get much better than this?"......only to find, after a long listening session, a quick switch to a top MM cartridge, makes me sigh and involuntarily utter the onomatopoeic ......."Ahhhhh'
Henry – I think its time u signed up for Rauls MCMM 101 course training. :^) |
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Ebm - never read Raul say he could like colorations before. It surprised me. I may have misunderstood Raul - I apologize if I did. I blame too much time in the sun. |
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Dear Thuchan, The strange thing is that because of this 'crazy' nomenclature we both introduced I got a good picture of your carts and their ranking according to your own valuation. Not so strange is the fact that I am much more familiar with MC than MM carts.For the last 35 years I, and I assume others,was only interested in MC carts and have read innumerable reviews about them and owned many. I think that the 'Kaiser' (aka Emperor) status for your Olympos is well selected as well that many will agree with this ranking despite the fact that only few own this treasure ( Syntax wrote to me a whole story about ). So before Raul started this thread I had only some hazy idea about the ADC 25 and Shure V 15 III which I owned in a distant past. For my own carts and my ranking I need some introduction. I wrote to you about my observation of the kids and their toys. The most of them had no idea what to play with and were more busy to destroy them then play with. Only a few were able to make a choice and to 'organize' their play. This is the 'abundance problem' I mentioned elswhere. I mentioned Arabs with an harem and you proclaimed Raul and Timeltel as (carts) 'harem' owners.To my mind they belong to those 'few kids' who are able to survey and 'organize' their 'toys'. I myself know in advance that I would have no idea what to do with, say, 20 carts. Even worst if I was forced to change and adjust,say, 3 carts in one single day I would first 'organize' the admission in some asylum. So ,after this introduction reg. my own 'nature', here are my carts. 2 'beautiful cardinals': Benz Ruby 3S and Phase Tech P-3G. 1 'handsome prince' : AT 7 V 5 'temporary priest': Signet TK5E,AT 440 ML,Empire 1000ZE/X,AKG P 25MD/24, Akg P 8ES Super Nova. BTW I already (re)sold 3 'humble priest'.
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, pretty well described the world we are all in. And yes thanks to Raul we got aware there are some more interesting toys besides of MCs. You got a nice selection of servants of the Pope. Maybe not the lonely desoriented priest walking aimlessly through the forest who was illustrated so wonderfully by Dertonearm and who hopefully turns into an enlighted bishop when he arrives at me. I will look closer onto one of your cardinals, the Benz Ruby 3S I am very curious getting to know some day who owns the biggest harem... :-)
best & fun only
|
Dear friends: I take contact with the seller from where we bought our Nagatron 9600 samples and ask for the mark ( in color ) on the cantilever as on the elliptical stylus subject and this is what I received as an answer:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
" Hi This is a note for you that I received from Mr. Monoson regarding my question to him about the color marking on the styli cantilever on the Nagatron's. Here is what he wrote back to me: THESE ARE BOTH ELLIPTICAL STYLI BUT THE GREEN IS FOR CONTEMPORARY RECORDS AND THE WHITE IS FOR OLDER LP'S .....THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR THE MERCURY 35 mm HI FI STEREO RECORDS. THE GREEN HAS A CONTACT ANGLE OF 16 DEG. AND THE WHITE 18 DEG. THEY SHOULD BOTH WORK FINE ON ANY CONTEMPORARY RECORDS (1980 TO PRESENT).
So I am pretty certain that you do have an elliptical diamond and not a conical tip on the Nagatrons. Just thought you would like to know. "
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Btw, Mr. Monoson is an Ex-President of Nagatron.
Latter I receive another email where they told me that the stylus certainly is not only not an after market one but an original Nagatron 0.4x07 elliptical one that came from the Nagatron 1460IE and this means that the VTF range is different from the original 9600, the right VTF for our samples is: 1.75grs to 2.25grs. Here is the email:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
" We do know that Nagatron had been doing some experimenting on what stylus would fit into the 9600's when they were no longer able to obtain the triangular stylus. Of the items they sent me, I think I have found one that they modified to fit the cart. Here is a picture:
The above individual says it is not an original Nagatron stylus but that it is an aftermarket spherical/conical and not elliptical. This one is the 1460IE stylus (Nagatron Brand)( and not an aftermarket) with .4x.7mil elliptical diamond tip and the shaft does slide into the 9600. Note that it also has the green marking on the cantilever like yours. Mr. Monoson (ex Nagatron president) told me they were elliptical and I had no reason to beleive otherwise. If anyone is not satisfied with the purchase I would gladly refund $ upon return of cartridge.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I hope this put some light on the Nagatron stylus subject.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Travbrow: So, I was not wrong when I tested the Nagatron and I found out that was not a very good tracker and now I know why.
I will mount it again and as I told you I will run with the ( now ) right VTF that's higher that I imagine because before I knew the manufacturer range ( for the elliptical stylus. ) I was thinking to go to 1.5grs but now 2.0grs. seems a good place to start.
Btw, the recommend load capacitance by the manufacturer is: 200-400 pf.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hello Raul, I have also been running my 9600 at around 1.25 gr. It is amazing it tracked at all. I wonder what changes to the sound will occur at the added weight. I just took it off yesterday to listen to the Signet 10ml with AT25 stylus but will let you know when I switch back. Let us know what you think at the added weight.
Thank you very much for the information.
Danny |
Dear Nagatron friends: The latest report on the new VTF cartridge set up was that 1.75 grs. makes " the difference ", so this will be my choice to begin with my Nagatron 9600 tests again. I will report asip.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Now I am not sure what my samples are, both my Nagatron samples have a light blue mark on the cantilever, not green or white. The fellow who thinks his sample has a conical tip also has a blue marked sample. Anyway, the higher tracking force I tried so far (1.75g) improved tracking. It tracks first three bands of my HI-FI test record Bias setting with no buzzing and all three tracking ability tests on side two. None of the MC models I owned could do this. I need to put more hours on my Nagatron before I experiment further with tracking force and set up. |
Dear Travbrow, I also own and use the Image HI-FI test record. You have no idea how proud I was to get 90 microns without any 'buzzing' from the R.channel with my FR-64S and Ortofon MC 30 S(?). I needed well ,say, considerable amount of anti-skate force to achieve this fantastic result. Alas there were only two persons to impress.Alas I also come across an warning by Van den Hul not to try to get there mainly because of the needed anti-skate force. So since I am happy with 70 micron with my Ruby 3S while my Phase Tech P-3G 'refuse' to please me with more than 60 micron. I have no worry at all with this state of affairs. Regards, |
Travbrow, which MC models did you own?
best & fun only |
Dear Travbrow: Mine has the blue dot too. I ask the seller about that's why his answer but what for he is " green " in reality is " our " blue dot. He does not has any white one but the blue dot that all of us bought from him.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Acman3: I'm now mounting the Nagatron to test it to higher VTF set up.
In the mean time my advise is that even that the cartridge performs good at 1.25 as you and me stated it is not safe for your LP's to run at that lower VTF ( even if we can't heard tracking distortions these could occur at microscopic/minute level doing some kind of damage to the LP in the long run. ) because the Nagatron's eliptical or conical stylus shape of those times ( and taking in count the model that the seller/Nagatron's President give me. ) came with VTF ranges that goes in between: 1.75 grs to 2.25 grs. So, IMHO at least 1.75 grs is in order.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: Only for the records: in 1981 the original stylus replacement for the 9600 had a price of: $ 124.00 when the elliptical ( that seller states. ) came for: $ 35.00-40.00 and the conical between: $ 14.00-17.00.
If what we have is the conical then this Nagatron 9600 is a " hell " of design and IMHO a worth to go for the re-tip ( even if it is not conical but elliptical. ) or if you are really satisfied then go for a replacement of what we have.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
I needed very little antiskate to get the Nagatron cartridge to pass those test tracks, only set to the first line (.5) on my Technics EPA 100MKII tonearm anti-skating scale. My MM cartridges track well with the recommended amount of anti-skating (same value as tracking force) and I usually use less than recommended. I know some just use their ears to set it, or use no anti-skating bias at all.
I read long ago that these test tracks don't mean a whole lot as far as sound quality. If excellent tracking ability has nothing to do with accurate sound than these tests mean nothing, so don't bother if that is what you think. I also was told that tracking test bands and music are to different things, the idea is that just because the cartridge doesn't do well with the test tracks doesn't mean it won't track actual music accurately, without more added distortion.
I owned the Shelter 501 and 901, Dynavector DV20 and ZYX R100 all used on a different tonearm though, an Origin Live Encounter. So I guess this also means nothing because I never tried these carts on the Technics tonearm, maybe they would have tracked the test bands better with the Technics tonearm, or does it even matter as some would say.
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Dear Acman3: I already made tests running the Nagatron 9600 at 1.25 grs, 1.75 grs and 2.0 grs.
I mounted in aan AT MS-8 magnesium headshell in both: AT 1503 and Grace G-945.
As you states the 9600 performs very good at 1.25 grs and was a hard time to me to discern advantages at higher VTF set up but after several tests seems to me that 2.0 grs gives better grip at the bass frequency range where at the other extreme the improvement is only just slightly. I can't detect nothing wrong at 1.25 grs against higher VTF but I decided to use 2.0 grs to avoid any microscopic level damage to the LPs.
Btw, I prefer the 9600 performance mounted in the Grace tonearm than in the AT one.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Dear Travbrow, It is obvious that MM carts will track better than MC carts because of the different compliance. Regarding the 'better' qualification or expression I mean: on the testrecords. But the question should be what is adequate for our records. I am not 100% sure but if I rememebr well 50 micron should do. 'Remember' refers to what Van den Hul stated. Anyway I have no problems at all with 60 microns with my Phase Tech P-3G. Otherwise it would make no sense to produce low compliance carts. Or so I thought.
Regards, |
Dear Travbrow: On the cartridge tracking tests I don't use those test bands with test tones to make a cartridge tracking evaluation but current Lps with music. I use four-five LPs/tracks on that purpose.
Well, in the 9600 VTF subject ( at least in my 9600 sample. ) the higher VTF makes only minute improvements on my tracking test evaluation that for me does not change my rank of cartridge average/mediocre tracker. Even that performs very good and that's why I posted that this Nagatron 9600 is a " hell "/terrific cartridge design because even with that " poor " stylus/cantilever/suspension shows that kind of performance.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hi Raul, my sample sounds better with increased VTF to 1.75, and I heard mis tracking on a couple LPs when using 1.25 but I also changed the damping when I changed the VTF. So here is an example, just because the cartridge tracked the test lp tracks very well (for me) it may only be a mediocre tracker for music. I will adjust VTF for best sound after I get enough time on it, mine only has 12 hours use so far.
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Dear Travbrow: I'm sure thing with the 9600 could improve with more hours on it, the same from my sample if I let to go on because the cartridge line waiting to test is still longer that I can " handle ".
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
I have a question for anyone in the know about the Audio Technica AT-15 series of cartridges. Other than color, is the AT-15Xe body/motor assy. the same as what's on the AT-15sa? I have a 15sa with a 20ss stylus and would like to have a backup. |
Dear Griffithds: Yes, both have somilar body/motor. The main difference in between is that the 15Sa came with Shibata stylus shape when the 15Xe came with Ellptical one.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hi Griffithds, I believe the AT-15Sa, XE, and SS all share the same generator. I don't know if there are any body differences. Sometimes a deluxe body will have better shielding or materials. They all have 500 ohm impedance, which would indicate the same generator. Regards, |
Thank you Raul:
I would like to tell you what a pleasure it has been reading this thread. Doing searches on google for different cartridges, I kept coming upon searches that sent me to this thread. Once I realized I was making frequent trips here, I decided to start at page 1 and read it all the way thru. You could publish a book with this and title it ALL YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT MM CARTRIDGES. What a great trip this has been! Thank you! |
Dear Griffithds: IMHO for so many years the MM/MI analog source alternative was something like the " losted link " ( maybe on purpose. ) and fortunately we now see that it is alive and " jumping " around. All in all agood alternative. Btw, I like that title, thank's and welcome aboard!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Ct0517: +++++ " All in all good performer the 9600. Yes, its added " colorations " could be addictive.
Dear Raul – is your armor starting to show cracks ? "++++++
Well, what I heard/hear through an audio system is no different from what you or other persons heard/hear, my " ears " are not better than any one.
I know that some kind of distortions/colorations could be " addictive " and I knew and know that because I like it for so many years and even today I could enjoy it ( briefly. ) but this fact does not means that I accept it against same performance level with out those distortions.
IMHO the main differences ( today ) between my audio opinions against some of you are the grade of discern on what we hear and where does came that discern different ability the other difference is that I'm not looking what I like ( well I'm''') but first what is " right " it does not matters if I like it or not.
This is more or less the " stage " where I'm in these times, this is where I'm in the Audio Learning Curve and I can tell you that never before enjoyed so much the home music/audio experience anywhere.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Nandric: +++++ " It is obvious that MM carts will track better than MC carts because of the different compliance. Regarding the 'better' qualification or expression I mean: on the testrecords. But the question should be what is adequate for our records. I am not 100% sure but if I rememebr well 50 micron should do. 'Remember' refers to what Van den Hul stated. Anyway I have no problems at all with 60 microns ..." +++++
I don't know which is adequate for our records because even that I own no less than 20 test records ( Shure, Telarc, Ortofon, Vanguard, Stereo Review, CBS, B&K, HiFi and the like. ) I don't use it yet through my tracking distortion tests where I use only 4-5 normal music LPs with no test tones.
What I know is that as better the cartridge ability to stay in the groove and I mean: stay in touch with the groove always with no tiny/minute/microscopic jumps, as lower the distortions ( for this subject. ) and better cartridge quality performance where we literally heard more MUSIC.
This cartridge ability tracking subject makes always a huge difference between cartridge comparisons ( btw if it is true that higher compliance helps on the tracking issue it is true too that is not the only factor to take in count when we are talking of cartridge tracking ability. ).
IMHO we all need any/a method to be aware how in any cartridge its tracking ability levels are reflected in what we are hearing. Tracking distortions can't be detected if we don't know how it sound, what to looking for. It is not rocket science and is more or less a simple " thing ".
This is what Banquo63 posted in other thread, not in specific about cartridges but I only want that we can have an idea about distortions:
++++++ " A couple of things to remark. First and foremost, the sound is relaxed, and what I had been judging as the 'exciting' and 'dynamic' sound of my previous set up , I now think of as distortions. " +++++
remember the WOW factor I talked when I posted about cartridge distortions? remember that a few days ago I posted that distortions/colorations could be addictive?
well: we all " like " distortions and for some of us even if we don't like it we have to accept it because many times we can't delete some kind of distortions.
To be aware of tracking cartridge distortion levels or cartridge distortions because cartridge body or stylus assembly resonances is very useful when we are making cartridge comparisons about quality performance cartridge level.
Normaly that WOW cartridge factor sound is almost always charged by heavy distortions from different kind against cartridges with out that WOW factor. Of course that exist very low distortions cartridge(s) with that WOW factor but normaly too when we are swtiching from a higher distortion cartridge to a lower distortion one almost always we don't like this one so much like the higher distortion one because the cartridge with lower distortions now seems to us that what we heard through our systems " lost/lose " : 'exciting' and 'dynamic ' and certainly this is what our ears percieve at first glance but the reality is that what we lose were ( fortunately ) distortions of different kind and this fact means that we win: more MUSIC.
Many years ago when I was unaware of the distortions importance I re-wired in external fashion my SAECs tonearms ( 8000 and 506 that were working with Denons DP-80 and DP-75. ) with silver VdH wires and I remember ( to vivid today. ) that I was really exited to hear what this change promised and when I heard the first LP track in the 8000 as high was my exitement as high was my dissapointment. I was even " angry " because time and money I invested in what " must " be an improvement that shows me was not an improvement but several back steps on quality performance sound level!!!! I go with the 506 waiting that things could be different but shame on that: similar dissapointment.
I losed the " exiting and dynamic " ( WOW factor. ) that I had before that wire changes. Fortunately I did not desesperate and followed through more days listening my system till my ears " accustom " to the lower distortions.
From that old years till today this kind of similar experience already repeated one and again every time changes in my system reflected improvements by lower/ing distortions.
Of course that only through comparisons where start and we have a reference we can be aware that due to lower distortions we are " loosing that WOW factor/exiting and dynamic ( between other things. ) ".
With cartridges is not different distortions added harmonics that we detect as a different tone color: exiting/dynamic/transparent/alive or the like. Now a lower distortion cartridge performance has that: exiting, dynamic, transparent or alive tone color too but with a different quality. With out a method ( with both components: objective/subjective. ) to test and be aware of those distortions we can't discern about and IMHO many times what we are hearing and what we highly praised as a cartridge top performer is only a " poor " cartridge distorted performer. The 7s is an example of this " stage " as is the 20SS ( read what Banquo posted on the 20SS when he loosed that " exiting and dynamic " sound because he lowered its TT/tonearm distortions. ) or the TK10ML Series II.
Another very clear example of this trackin cartridge distortions is what I experienced with my Nagatron 9600 sample. I posted that my AT-24 is a better performer than the 9600 but Travbrow experienced just the opposite, I posted that the AT-24 is a better tracker than the 9600 and with lower distortions.
The 9600 has a high WOW factor with a bass ( mid bass and low one but not on the lower range. ) that any one has to experience it: tunneful, no overhang, pitch-perfect, great grip in a word: " addictive ". Well, I posted that the 9600 is an average/mediocre tracker ( I almost can say a poor tracker. ), how is that this poor tracker cartridge can has that kind of mid-bass performance? this is out of my mind and I can't explain it for sure. But things are that the cartridge performance has not a neutral tone or a well balanced overall frequency range and even that the highs could " seems " no-end and transparent in reality are distorted. If we hear this cartridge at 80db-82dbs SPL at seat position is not easy to be aware where those distortions are but when we go to the high 80'sdb and inside the 90-93dbs then you know and be aware of those cartridge distortions against the AT-24 that does not shows those distortion signs.
Yesterday I was listening the 9600 ( that came with non-original Nagatron stylus 9600 model. ) and when I was hearing the Sam McClain " Keep on' moving " LP ( 83db SPL. ) I been aware and confirm those higher distortions at the high frequency range that IMHO belongs to that poor tracking cartridge abilities ( because I know it can't comes from the cartridge body ( first rate. ) or stylus plastic assembly because there is no plastic assembly: the stylus came attached firm as in a MC or like in a B&O cartridges, no resonances here. ) then I switch to the TK10ML Series II ( that I have mounted on hand. ) and those distortions in that frequency range just vanished does not exist any more ( this top Signet is a tracker champ. ). Then I returned to the 9600 but now to 92 db SPL: was really agressive and almost unlistenable causing fatigue in my ears. I made the same with the Signet and I was really pleased even at 95 db SPL.
Has the Signet that WOW factor? yes but the quality level is way way different.
Halcro posted: ++++ " This is similar to the claim by Raul that a cartridge can sound so good (Wow) in our multiple systems.......but is really only 'average' because our systems have 'distortions'? Yet other cartridges which some of us find disappointing in our systems, are so good that they only sound bad because of these same unspecified 'distortions' in our systems? " +++++
first is not what I say but to understand the whole distortion subject and one road to understand in better way ( it is not matters if we like what we heard. ) is to compare WOW factor cartridges against lower distortion ( non " apriori " WOO factor. ) in the long run: I mean to give days of listening to that lower distortion cartridge to understand what is happening in one cartridge or the other and please don't use fors this test FR heavy distortions tonearms choose what you want but FR ones.
Nandric, in the main page of this thread I speak about the importance of tracking distortions and the importance that the cartridge stay always in touch with the LP grooves and before this thread I posted several times of the main importance of this " stay in the groove " subject.
No, I don't have the answer to your question other that any cartridge that run freely and with no failure all those live 16 cannon shots on the Telarc 1812 gives you more MUSIC than the ones it can't, gives you more listening pleasure!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Oh yes I know what happen in that 9600 bass: IMHO that " power " we hear/heard is part of those tarcking distortions that some way together sound pleaseant and " right ".
I think that some one needs to make scientific/objective research/test on the whole " stay in the groove " subject analysis to find out the " true ".
R. |