Dear Professor, I own the Acutex M312 III STR, alas not the LPM 412. But, as my leader recommended , I need to get my AT 7V in optimal state first. Ie just 10 hours more to go.However I am already very impressed.
Regards, |
I have a puzzling quandary...
When I posted the compliance of my TK9e, it was based on measuring the resonant frequency using a laterally recorded sweep (from HFN Test)
When I did the same test using the vertically recorded track - the result was substantially different.
Is this expected? - Or should I check my setup and remeasure?!
I would have expected both results to be similar!?
bye for now
David |
Hi David, Assuming that's dynamic cu @10Hz, that figure looks high. It's vertical cu that's standardized and it's not necessarily equal to horizontal cu. I think the reason vertical is used is in consideration of warps and the possibility of mistracking less than flat records. Ortofon is the only manufacturer that publishes both vertical and horizontal cu, AFAIK. Another reason this mass - compliance matching thing is a guesstimate.
I've been to your site a couple of times and you're doing a great job with the samples and information. I know it took a ton of work. Want to let you know that I appreciate it and look forward to further evolution. Regards, |
Hi Raul, I got the Supex 100 MKIII and will give it a try soon. Thanks for recommending the Nagatron 9600, looking forward to listening to it. And once again thanks so much for starting this thread. |
Thanks Fleib,
the lateral calc came out at 32 to 35cu where the vertical came out at 14 to 16cu
The former seems too high,and the latter seems too low....
I may just redo the whole thing.
I have a couple more cartridges recorded but I need to do the editting and carving up so I can put them up.
I also finished recording the AT440MLa using digital EQ (ie: record using custom loading & RIAA, + digital EQ based on pink noise analysis) - so I am hoping to put up at least one version of each cartrige in digitally EQ'd version.
My theory is that the cartridges will sound even more alike once EQ'd - using this method, allows me to choose loadings that are less amplitude linear but more phase linear - and then adjust the amplitude using linear phase filtering - still to be seen whether this experiment will be a success - but I think this is the way of the future for vinyl.
bye for now
David |
David, Are you aware of John Ellison's method for calculating (vertical) compliance? Here is a URL: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/89/892332.html If I owned the needed equipment, this is the way I would do it.
I am wondering why you would necessarily expect vertical and lateral (horizontal) compliance to be equal or even near equal? Further, in terms of tracking and tonearm matching, I would think that vertical compliance is by far the most important factor, although I can see your coming response that the stylus tip is wiggling in the horizontal as well as the vertical plane. |
Hi Lewm,
I am trying to measure vertical compliance as that is what is most critical in matching the tonearm setup, and therefore selecting the right headshell weight for the cartridge...
The lateral vs vertical is the cutting/recording method - so I am unsure as to how the differing methods will cause to cartridge suspension to react.
I believe the right one to use is the vertical track, but I would have thought that a laterally cut sweep at the same frequencies should have resulted in a similar effect - but the resulting effect was quite different!
I do not expect both lateral and vertical compliance to be the same, although when the suspension is made of a symmetrical doughnut around the cantilever, it would be reasonable to expect equal compliance all around...
Thanks for the URL- LuckyDog on VE has been using this method to measure damping... I was planning on trying it out some time soon...
bye for now
David |
Given the way most cart suspensions are constructed, I would be surprised if vertical and horizontal compliance were the same. And from my layman physics, it would make sense that vertical compliance was lower than horizontal.
Perhaps a cart designer could pipe in here... :^) |
Dear Halcro,
when are you finally becoming excellent? ...pfftt :-) :-) .-)
you did say some good words to Raul but I am not sure if you will succeed in accelerating his learning curve on that specific topic. You know I already gave up.
Learning is sometimes a misleading concept. Is a missionary being able to learn? or does he understand the concept as giving his learnings to others - which is not a bad attitude at all! - rather than really being open to integrate and going for something new in his own system (of the world, of audio ...).
best & fun only - Thuchan |
David, You may be right about the donut but I am used to thinking about something with a wire in addition to the damper... The Lyra page on the new(-ish) Delos and Kleos is instructive regarding the 'loaded' state (i.e. cart on record at 'normal' VTF but not playing). It's been a while since i read it but IIRC, that, too, would make me think the vertical/horizontal load would not be the same. |
Although vertical cu is used to compute tonearm/cart resonance, it's lateral cu that is more important in actual tracking. In checking Ortofon's site for these figures, I see they no longer publish vertical cu. Vertical and horizontal cu were identical on most of their carts. Although tracking is three dimensional, it's horizontal excursions that determine bass output and are more responsible for detail extraction. Starting at max VTF, ever notice that when VTF is decreased, usually bass is increased? Decrease it to much and it gets fuzzy sounding or has dropouts. Optimal VTF might have more to do with lateral cu than vertical. Importance of arm/cart resonance is usually overestimated. Regards, |
Hi Zev . Your passion for this analog hobby is obvious. The website looks great - are you in IT consulting by chance? Looking forward to maybe seeing one of my cartridges pop up. but there are soooooooooooo many. I recommend u set up a link in Audiogon to this great info u have gathered so it does not get buried in this huge thread. David/Henry - I went through a stretch with headphones when my kids were smaller – I found it was the only way to really isolate myself at times. Hearing the whining and crying in “stereo” with fraternal twins, takes its toll on anyone. Always had a fear of going deaf though with the higher decibels ?
The only sounds I heard last few nights were bull frogs then wolves howling at around 3am. More worried right now about what fishing lure to try than VTF settings. I am in a land where black bears out number people. Turntables? 2000 – 1 ? Nearest town has about 2000 residents in winter and 10,000 in summer. So there must be someone with one TT ?
I am cheating though and using an internet stick hooked to my laptop although I only get 1 out of 5 on the signal meter if I stay close to a window. This beats playing cards unless its Poker with the guys like Nandric ? The slow computer response time probably helped kill my chances of getting a 9600? Henry I missed on that other one. Will be setting up a new for me TT in the city in a few weeks. Can someone recommend a med to low compliance cartridge I should look for. If I take a cartridge from one I have it will be the AT7V. Anyone want to sell their Empire ? Email me. Cheers Chris |
Dear Fleib, You obviously know what you are talking about. But is it not the case that, historically, published figures for "compliance" are for the vertical plane, notwithstanding the fact that Ortofon may now be publishing horizontal compliance numbers? Further, most internet discussions regarding compliance and tonearm matching are with reference to the vertical. Yes? If not, I have been "out in left field" for a long time. (This was often said of me when I was a young man, so it would not be surprising to find myself in that situation once again.) |
Hi All,
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Just to let those lucky, unfortunate few know that you need not despair if your suspension has gone on your beloved Technics EPC P100 MK4 cartridge. I have just had mine mended by Axel Schurholz (he can be contacted at info@schallplattennadeln.de) and received a 'good-as-new' cartridge back from Germany. It's so like brand new that it has taken 30 hours to run in and still seems to be improving.
Boy am I pleased that Raul suggested I try him! Some might recall that he's the technician that B&O have authorized for the repair of their gems and was mentioned by Raul earlier in this thread.
I've been living on a diet of various cartridges (including the Astatic MF100, Andante P76 and others) but generally settling for my Empire 1000 ZE/X. Well, if music does indeed nourish the soul, the return of my Technics has me full to bursting. It's not so much that the Empire is not (ful)filling. It is a great cartridge at its level of performance. It would be easier to say (extending this metaphor somewhat) that if the Empire is a cod and chips supper, the renewed Technics is more like a Dover sole and dauphinois potatoes alternative.
A MUST for any Technics owner in a similar position. |
I owned some German test record with separate tracking ability test for vertical and horizontal tracking. The vertical was max. 50 micron while the horizontal was from 40 -100 micron ( maximal). If I remember well the explanation was that there is no need for more then 50 micron for the vertical tracking. This is obviously consistent with Fleib's assumptions.
Regards, |
Hello Lew, Yes, quite right, but most people don't know the meaning or relevance of what they do. They do as they've been told or shown. Historically - goes back to the days of mono when the record player was developed. Vertical cu had much greater implications. I'm not saying it should be ignored, but we've all seen the "rules" break down when it comes to resonant frequency. While I wouldn't put a 103 on my 5g arm, IMO arm-cart matching is more trial and error than conforming to a formula. Arm-cart calculators are estimates at best. Internet discussions of what actually sounds good are what's relevant. Yes, Ortofon is now publishing only lateral cu. Regards, |
Hi Chris, I may be able to accomodate you both ways. First I can recommend the Phase Tech P-3G LOMC (10cu) which got many awards in Japan. I bought this cart on ebay.uk direct from Japan for 900 GBP. I am very happy with this cart which I use with the Reed 2A, 12'', 27 g. eff.mass. Then you can get my Empire 1000 ZE/X with original stylus. I made my MM choice and intend to sell all other. I hate to change carts and there is no sense in keeping them in some box for hereafter. Because of your background you have the first choice.
Regards, |
Hi folks,
The discussion doesn't actually help me with guidance as to the best way to measure vertical compliance .... but I think I will stick to the vertical track... (makes intuitive sense!?) - and I may confirm using the other method...
Measurements are critical, if you don't want to spend your whole life listening to every possible permutation and combination - the trick is working out which measurements are really relevant!
In any case I got my Empire 999 up and running this week with a 1000Ze/X stylus, and my Empire EXL-10 with 4000D-I and 4000D-III... (measurements only at this stage... listening soon)
The 4000D's were disappointing - they have a cantilever resonance around 12kHz...
The 1000ZE/X shows promise - with resonance up around 20kHz.
It looks like the Quad cartridges tried to move the resonance downwards to keep the critical quad carrier zones free of phase variations - but this means that the phase variations associated with the resonance now sit well within the audible zone..... not so good.
The 1000ZE/X has a cantilever resonance profile similar to AT152LP, OM30, SuperXLM, AT20ss... good company.
bye for now
David |
Dear Nandric, The price for new knees.......is excruciating pain :-) By the way.....have you seen the prices being asked on Ebay for the AT-7V? $220-$260??! To think one can buy it for $130....it really is a Bizarro world? |
Dear Thuchan, I'm reminded of the parable....."when she was good, she was very good but when she was bad....she was better!" :-) |
Hi Chris, Nearest town population 2000?........I believe that's about 1600 more than in Timeltel's 'Deliverance' environs of outback Kentucky :-) Stories are told of the ancient Professor wandering aimlessly and speaking in a strange tongue once claimed to be English? |
David, ***the lateral calc came out at 32 to 35cu where the vertical came out at 14 to 16cu The former seems too high,and the latter seems too low....***
I would guess that your lateral cu is more like the actual static cu. Yes, the vertical seems just a bit low. You could try measuring the resonant frequency with an arm of known mass and seeing what that gives you. You might also want to verify the measurements with a non Japanese cart with known cu at 10Hz. I'd guess that would be the easiest way to calibrate. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, A real and brave follower will do anything to please his leader... I have seen those prices ( even from Japan) and wrote to the sellers to warn them with reference to Lpgear. But what if Lpgear made some mistake (miscalculation)? I am at about + 30 hours at the moment and intend to (re)sell the other MM carts. Hope to get my mental health back this way.
Regards, |
Hi Ct0517
I went looking for where one might place a link - without any luck finding it...
Where do you mean?
thanks
David |
David, Perhaps Ct0517 meant that you might start another thread (could be either a new thread or a "virtual system thread." |
Dear Halcro,
oh yes!
best & fun is all around
Thuchan |
Dear Halcro, Nandric, The AT7V is not a product for the US market. It's intended for Japanese and/or other markets. LpGear imports these. $129 is supposed to be an introductory price. It's said to be the same as the Signet TK-7Ea, perhaps with lower compliance. Regards, |
Dear Fleib, Not sure about Halcro but I had no idea that I was so smart. Ie I got the Signet TK-7Ea for $130? But I already stated my assumption that LPgear made some mistake. Then there is the German price of 150 Euro and the British of 149 GBP. All those prices as introductory prices? But of course: Raul never mantioned this cart.
Regards, |
Dear Halcro, catching up on your comment to Thuchan .... what is the difference between a pessimist and an optimist? The pessimist says "all women are wicked" - the optimist says "dearly hope so !". Cheers, D. |
Hi David as T bone says, or an entry in the Analog review section called Cartridge Comparisons or similar would work with your web site page link. Good luck with it. Nikola, thx for the offer - I don’t know about you or the others here but after buying a couple MM’s here for a nominal amount of money and getting great music pleasure from them, I have a hard time even thinking right now about spending close to or more than four $$$$ for a cartridge. Regarding the Empire 1000 ZE/X I am concerned about getting a cart that is like a dinner of cod and chips, according to Dgob? My late father-in-law was from Newfoundland so I know what that is all about. My Empire 4000 Diii gold doesn’t sound fishy at all. I meant it specifically – I like it a lot but I am also doing some A/B testing and need a second one.
Which MM have you decided to go to the sunset with ?
Fishermans Cottage Ad
Woman wanted
Someone that can cook, sew, clean fish, has boat and motor.
Please send picture of boat and motor
Cheers Chris |
Dear Chris, When some American priest visited Rome he was directly confronted with the 'Italian proposition' by his taxi driver: 'Mister we have a very beautiful lady for you.' The priest:'No,no, thank you, I come for the pope'. The next day the same taxi driver was looking for the American in the hotel where he 'deliverd' him and said: 'Mister the pope is impossible but we have a very beau tiful cardinal for you.' This story I told to Raul as a kind of introduction for my question. Since the EPC -P 100 C mk 4 was impossible to get I asked if the EPC P 100 mk 2 was an 'beautiful cardinal'? I spend so much time searching on ebay for the 'beautiful cardinals' while they seem to decrease in numbers and are in very short supplay. So I decided to end my search and settle on my AT 7v.
Regards,
|
Hi Desmond - very happy you have found your nirvana again - I remember how distraught u were at the time.
Nikola - did you settle on a vtf with the AT7v or are u still experimenting.
Cheers |
Hi Chris [Ct0517],
Thank you for sharing my joy. I am truly happy again and am sure others will be too.
Axel offers a service that some of the most notable of cartridge repairers have admitted they cannot. My repaired Technics has 'never' performed better. I therefore hope that other Technics owners who find themselves with a similar problem do avail themselves of his services.
Good luck to those affected |
Hi Chris (and ALL),
Just to add. Any Mk4 owner who has an opportunity to do so, I would strongly recommend the combination of your Technics and a 'Morch DP6 red spot precision' tonearm. I have never found a match like this before.
Joyous |
I am curious about opinions on the Nagatron 9600. It may not just be the cartridge of the month. At LEAST cartridge of the quarter.
Raul, Have you heard the 9600 with the proper triangle stylus?
Danny |
I got eight hours on my Nagatron 9600 with elliptical stylus, it is a pleasure to listen to. Raul says an AT 24 is better, but my Signet Tk9/AT25 was not better to my ears. Could be I never had the Signet optimized or I just like a cartridge that sounds more musical and is more fun to listen to, even if it is extra "distortions" I like.
Thanks for the info Dgob, good to know we can get our 100 MK4 cartridges repaired if needed. |
Hi Dgob, Glad you got the Technics up and running again. I'll send my broke down 205c in. Thanks for the info.
Danny |
Travbrow, Signet Tk9/AT25 is not AT24. In AT line you should try to mate original styli to the corresponding bodies. This how it was optimized and how manufacturer intended.
Good example AT155LC and AT160ML, all permutations between bodies and styli sounds good, but things are really start blossoming when each one gets it own original one. |
Regards, Travbrow: What a dilemma! From the Greek "double proposition", two propositions, neither of which is entirely acceptable. Listening recently to a TK9/ATN25, a Signet TK7SU, a Signet TK7LCa, a bonded stylus AT12Sa and an AT20SS with both the 20SS super Shibata on be. cantilever and the 20SLa stylus, a smaller profile Shibata on tapered alu alloy.
As these all fell from the same cartridge tree, timbre and tone are, within reason, comparable. The discernable variances are in the emphasis given to different registers but what is most noticable are the qualities in leading edge attack or transients, decay, rise time, mechanically induced overshoot and especially in the isolation of low-level detail. This, to my ear, is due to the diminished rigidity of the several alu. cantilevers as compared to the noticably "faster" and less resonant berillium varients. Cartridge output, inductance and impedance is essentially the same for all but the TK7LCa so these considerations would not seem to be the most important factors. Damping, cartridge mass and quality of the windings are not being taken into consideration.
The finer styli on the be. cantilevers are definitely more accurate but lack the ambience of the still very nice alu. cantilevered varients.
Tough to choose any one of these as better or best but there is a point at which definition and detail become too analytical, and there is a different set of characteristics when excessive warmth and cohesion results in a muddled performance. It's important to remind ourselves that "good" carts perform within a range of what different but experienced others find acceptable- "some like coffee, some like tea, little brown jug how I love thee" :-). Some might choose a cartridge that has the quality of presenting a cohesivness in the performance, there are others capable of retrieving the smallest detail and precisely placing it in the layering of the recording. These are good but different abilities and wherever on the scale of "fine to fun" the cartridge may perform, these preferences are important to the *informed* individual making that choice and should not be disregarded.
Nandric, I read your decision to eliminate all MM's but the AT7V and thought it a good selection but not such a good choice. Two many cartridges under the same roof, unlike two many women there, is not a problem!
Peace, |
Dear Professor, A wonderful and thoughtful posting which manages to inform without too much technical jargon. Not many here, are able to do such in-depth comparisons which need, not only the cartridges and the varied appropriate styli?......but presumably also, arms with readily interchangeable headshells to avoid 'memory loss' if manually changing cartridges from arm to arm?
Dear Nandric, unfortunately I agree with Timeltel about the 'need' for more than only one MM cartridge but I also understand you are 'locked into' fixed-headshell modern arms? Wouldn't it be nice to have at least one vintage arm with interchangeable headshells to allow the required 'freedom'? A Micro MA-505s will not break the bank and would soon reward you bountifully :^) IMHO of course. Cheers Henry |
Dear Nandric, did not know that you are searching for Kardinals... why not going for Kings! you have to compromise cause sometimes they are not beautiful... but this will be not a problem as being beautiful is not the most desired requirement for us ... at least in our audio systems.
best & fun only |
Dear Professor, I wish I was on this 'level' on the Rauls 'learning curve'. My compliments for the literary and the technical merits of your post. I myself have a very strong impression to hunt for unicorn. Like those hunting their whole life for 'the women of their life'. As a kid I told this story about the knight 'without fear or reproach' fighting all kinds of danger to get 'the princes', to my grandfather who was a 'simple farmer'. He was wondering why this knight deed not choose some other lady. On his level of his learning curve a lady needed to be as useful as a horse otherwise there was no sense in marriage institution. In some sense I abandoned the search for the unicorn and settle for a simple 'good horse'. Besides whatever may be wrong with my back I would prefer 'many women' above many carts. Ie only by changing and adjusting the last kind i have trouble with my back.
Kind regards, |
Thanks Timeltel, your post explains things very well. The Signet was very detailed, clean and accurate. But never made me want to play records for six hours at a time, like this Nagatron did. I wrote before in this thread that I thought the Signet/AT 24 is a top performer and it is but was a little boring to me. Some of my favorite cartridges just have an aluminum type cantilever, except the Technics models with Boron cantilevers. I guess I like a little added ambience as you put it.
And I guess the AT 24 could be better than the Signet TK9 with AT 24 stylus that I owned, as Siniy suggested. |
Regards, Nandric: Is it possible you don't have too many cartridges but rather too few tonearms? These are more easily changed or adjusted than is a lady.
Peace, |
Dear Professor,Halcro and Thuchan, Thanks for all your concern but your 'help' rimind me (once more) of this story. Little Peter come pretty late at home and was strongly addressed by his dad: 'How do you dare to come so late?'. Peter: 'I was busy to help an old lady across the street.' Dad: 'come on ,for such a long time?' Peter:'Yes this lady refused my help again and again and...'.
BTW I own 8 different carts and 7 different tonearms. Among those 7 there are 3 with exchangible headshell. On my Kuzma Stabi Reference it is not so easy to change tonearms while I am happy with the Triplanar on it and the Reed 2A next to it. Thuchan, never meet an 'beautiful cardinal' or are you not Catholic?
Regards, |
Besides whatever may be wrong with my back I would prefer 'many women' above many carts. Ie only by changing and adjusting the last kind i have trouble with my back.
Nikola, there are many positions when intimate with the former that will strengthen the back for the crucial work with the later. :^) |
Regards, Travbrow: I remember and still appreciate your assistance in obtaining a suitable stylus for my TK9, it took a significant number of hours to run in and does represent the qualities you observed.
I hesitated to pull the trigger on the Nagatron (lucky you) but did collect an AT12Sa, a pleasant performer which can still be found in NOS condition at a very reasonable price considering it's capabilities. A low inductance/output impedance 20SS "wannabe" with a nicely polished but bonded Shibata, it falls somewhere in the middle of the fine/fun range. It's very easy on the ears and might be a cart for consideration by those who want a "daily driver" for extended listening in a relaxed and non-critical manner.
Apologies for the late-at-night gramatical error ("two" -> "too") and also for the obvious generalities expressed. These influences should be considered on a case by case determination.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Peace, |
Dear Thuchan, 'What metaphors mean' is an article by the American philosopher D. Davidson. Since then I have no idea what they mean in philosophical sense but I think that they mean what we make of them or how we interprete them. I wrote to Raul about the Italian 'proposition' because I thought that he 'must be' a Catholic and those are more cheerful then the other (pre)suppose. His 'best cart' post was very confusing and even more confronting but the fact was that this cart was 'impossible' to get. Assuming 'an similar' hierarchy among the MM carts as in the Catholic church I asked for the 'beautiful cardinals'. Ie if the 'best' is not obtainable then we should look for the 'second best'. Well this was the meaning of my 'cardinal methafor'. Your advice is to look for a 'king' instead for a 'cardinal'. But this to me is just an supstitution of one methafor for the other. Besides you forget to mention the name of your ,or more generaly speaking, 'the king'(of the carts). So to my mind Raul was more specific then you are.
Regards, |
Dear Chris, Your assumptions regarding the substitution of one kind of physical activity for the other is based on the abstract logical thinking. The logical kind assumes different names for the same object. Aka the 'coreferential terms'. So whatever is true about 'the evening star' must also be true about 'the morning star' because both names refer to the same object.I dont't believe that adjusting carts as Dertonarm prescribed ( the fraction of a millimeter) is the same 'object' in the sense of physical activity as mentioned. Besides in the time of the women emancipation one can play the 'passive' role and pretend to be accommodating as well as enligthend.
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, you are guessing in the right direction. I do have some Catholic Roots. Nevertheless as I learned that Kardinals were (and maybe are) not really beautiful, just the opposite they tend to be more powerful and political, at least the famous ones as history learns us, I went in some other directions. I would not say I became a member of some other religion, I also did not reach (Audio-) Nirwana as the founder of this thread so far. But I do appreciate some other positive aspects of life you will not find in a Kardinal`s life I guess.
Being in paradise at the moment (not in a Catholic Sense of course) I am not able to work on my catridges. This is the other side of the coin and I do envy you and all others being able doing so. I am waiting for a SPU with inbuild transformer arriving at me and I am not sure if it will turn out as a King or Kardinal. You asked me which is my preferred King. The answer is very simple. I have many Kings - but not many ladies - only one.
best & fun only |