Hello Raul, I was just beginning to post a question about that Nagatron when your post to Stltrains came through. I got one yesterday.
What is the difference between the Elliptical and Triangle and where can you get replacement stylus?
Thanks |
With regard to Acman's question, I am wondering whether or not there is some double-talk on that eBay ad. The seller is allowing us to think that the elliptical stylus on the cartridge is an original made-by-Nagatronic stylus that was offered as an alternative to the "triangular" stylus, or in late production after Nagatron may have ceased to supply the triangular one, This is all well and good, but he never comes out and says so explicitly. Therefore I wonder whether he is supplying an after-market stylus assembly, which could be good or bad. Caveat emptor. |
Dear Lew, 'Caveat emptor' is an old 'rule' from the Roman Law. But the buyer has the right to demand what is promissed or suggested in the listing. I assume that nobody will risk a negative feedback for, say, $200. However one should always ask about the details if anything is not quite clear. Regards, |
Hello Lewm, The seller is actually from Garage a Records. So at least it is a actual company but as always "Caveat emptor".
Now if I can only find a triangle stylus.
Thanks, Danny |
Nandric and Acman, I am a bit disappointed in the integrity of some who sell these unusual items. One company we know about says on their website that "all" their styli are NOS, when we know thanks to others that this is not so, at least for their "Acutex" styli. (I am not referring to Garage-a-records; I know nothing about them.) And this is not meant to cast any aspersions on the seller in the eBay ad. I was just suggesting that buyers should ask questions about the provenance of that elliptical stylus. |
Dear Acman3: I bought this cartridge through ebay/same seller last November where he stated: " Semi-line nude stylus ".
I was unaware of what the seller states this time till your post.
Now, I deal in the past 3-4 times with this seller and on each one he was honest on what he states. I don't have any doubt ( as Lewm that in this regards is sceptic. ) that the cartridge comes with a Nagatron stylus , not an after market one , as the seller states.
The information I have on this Nagatron cartridge is this:
+++ " tapered, tubular boron cantilever, frequency response 20-30,000 Hz; output 2mv; channel balance/separation 1db/27 db at 1 000 Hz; dynamic compliance 15cu at 100 Hz; tracking force range 0.9-1.3 g; triangle-tip elliptical semi-line contact stylus; effective mass 0.031 mg; weight 7.6 g. " +++++
this is supposed the one I own but with out the one in the today seller ad I can't comapre through microscope.
The 9600 in 1980 had a retail price of 225.00
Now, all the Nagatron top models I know, including the 350/360 in the 300 series that I own, comes with elliptical stylus tip and aluminum or carbon fiber cantilevers Only the 9600 is " elliptical semi-line contact " with boron cantilever. My take is that more than the stylus shape if there is a quality performance differences could be because the different cantilever build material but I think that the cartridge signature is still there to both cartridges.
I hope this can help you and no there is no stylus replacement source that I know.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul I believe for the asking price you can't go wrong and bought a 9600. I asked some questions but no response yet. Your last post helped make my decision. Hope more setup info is included with the package. Mike |
Hi Raul, Thank you for the information on the Nagatron. I'm sure it will work out OK. |
The seller got back with me and there will be know setup info included. And the net is not any help either going in the dark should be interesting. |
Dear Stltrains/Acman3/friends: All this day I been in touch with the nagatron seller through several emails.
The cartridge that any one of you will receive is exactly like mine " refurbished ". This is an email from the seller that explain about:
+++++ " Hi This is a very complicated subject and I hope I do not run out of room trying to explain. I was contacted by the past president of Nagatron (David Monoson probably in his eighties)in October of 2010 regarding the sale of the remaining Nagatronics inventory (By the way, this was a personal purchase of mine and not related to the Garage-A-Records). This included the 9600 cartridges, Z couplers and a bunch of other misc cartridges etc. Nothing was boxed and all of the cartridges were in clear plastic vials without spec sheets but were labeled the lid of the vial. I also received a notebook with some promo pictures a couple of spec sheets for other cartridges. I assumed everything was new except for the items already installed on headshells. I did nt have any info on the 9600's except for a picture with the features I listed on the ebay ad. I tested one of the cartridges and it sounded super and started marketing them on ebay. In April as I was looking at the remaining ones I noticed that a couple of the cartridges had what appeared to be experimental styli on them. This was a shock to me as I had no reason to think that all of the cartridges did not have the same stylus inserted. Since I did not have any "real" data as to what tip was actually there I decided that specifing "ELLIPTICAL" would be a "best" representation of what the cartridge actually had and listing the condition as "Manufacturer Refurbished" . I think that towards the end of the company life, they could no longer get the triangular stylus and were scratching heads to see what would work in this phenomenal cartridge body that they created. All of the styli on the 9600's have a green marking on the cantilever and were made for nagatron and are not current aftermarked styli, I do know that. What I do not know is what the actual tip size and have no way of actually determining that. They could be triangular, hyperelliptical or elliptical, I just honestly do not know. Hope this all helps! """""""++++
the build quality on the cartridge is first rate and you will be the best judge on its quality performance level ( btw, the cartridge needs more than 20 hours to shows at its best. ).
Btw, for that persons that have interest on SUTs nagatron builded a very fine unit named: Ag 9200 Z coupler. They designed for its 0.04mv output ribbon cartridge: """ features chemically pure silver windings and very short magnetic circuit; selector for balanced or unbalanced line hook-up. Input impedance 3 ohms; output impedance 33 kohms; load resistance 47kohms min.; gain 40 db and price in 1980: 325.00 dollars.
I understand that this same seller has some NOS units on ebay and you can contact direct and ask about.
I HAVE NO REALATIONSHIP WITH THE SELLER IN ANYWAY other that I'm a customer from him on the Nagatron cartridge.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul thanks for sharing this info. Sense you have the same 9600 what discoverys have you come up with vta/vtf. Really looking forward to what this cartridge will bring. Mike |
Hi Folks
Following on the earlier discussion about LO vs HO, and low Inductance vs High Inductance...
I used my Pickering stereohedron D7500S stylus in an XLZ7500 and a XSP3003 - basically the HO-High Inductance body vs the LO-Low Inductance body - using the same stylus,
I started by measuring Frequency response, and square waves at differing loads for each setup - and then set the loadings on both to a value that provided one of the better square wave results (minimised overshoot), along with almost identical Frequency response (within 0.2db of each other, and the 0.2db difference is at above 20kHz).
I then recorded a series of tracks with both, and adjusted the levels so both recordings have matched levels.
Not suprisingly they sound the same - are they truly identical... no, the LO body has higher noise levels by about 6db (a product of the additional gain required I assume)... but in terms of sound - I am struggling to differentiate between them. I will be doing some more listening to these over the next couple of days, and will report my findings, but my initial "gut" response is - why bother?
The other thing that is worthy of note is that the XSP3003 is a low inductance high output design - 250mH. So I am not comparing a 600mH+ design vs the 1mH LO cartridge. That would be quite a different comparison - would be interesting having a Stanton 880 - 510mH body to add to the comparison.
Another aspect of this comparison was configuring the electrical loading to ensure that it was critically damped (no resonance) - with some drop off in the high end to balance out the cantilever's mechanical resonance slightly (m-resonance at 20kHz).
Other statistics I took showed that dynamics (peaks compared to average) were within the margins of error of my tools - no difference there either.
By the way - these two sound excellent, and I have been enjoying listening to them.
bye for now
David |
Hello Danny (Acman3)
Can I ask what VTF you were tracking with on the AT7V before you changed to the other cartridge?
Cheers Chris |
Dear Stltrains: According my notes I mounted the Nagatron 9600 in the Grace 945 with a magnesium Audio Technica MS-8 headshell, running at 1.25grs with positive ( tiny. ) SRA/VTA, dead center azymuth , no antiskating, 100k on load impedance and 100pf added capacitance.
Regrads and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Btw, according to the seller ( Lewm, this is the same source from what you bought an Empire stylus replacement. ) the enginners in Nagatron came from Shure brothers and instead the cartridge design been a MM one ( as Shure. ) is a MI one.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dlaloum, So your Pickering would be equivalent, I think, to my Stanton 980LZS vs the HZS version. As I mentioned earlier I was fortunate enough to find an NOS Pickering 7500 stylus to be used eventually to replace the D98S stylus in my Stanton. (NOS D98S seems unobtainium.) I continue to enjoy the Stanton, but I have no idea whether or not my contentment is in any way related to the fact that my version is LO (vs HO), It is, however, interesting to learn of your own findings. Thanks. |
Hello Chris,
I was running around 1.5 to 1.7. I will be moving back to AT7v to play more with VTA.
I got caught up in the enthusiasm for the Empire 4000d3 and changed to it over the weekend. The Empire is one of the best IMO.
Danny |
Raul gotcha and again thanks for the info. Ive been all over the net top to bottom theres nothing on this jewel. |
Hi Lewm
I think the real clue behind LO vs HO designs is in the marketing info about the LO models (both pickering and stanton)
Cable length... ie cartridge loading.
With the LO, you can fit it on TT's with high capacitance cables (or long cables) and still get good results.
With the HO version and the higher inductance, keeping the C low becomes more important.
In the type of setup most of us here run, it is much of a muchness between them - but you do occasionally hear of people wanting to run 10m of cable between turntable and phono stage.... in which case the LO might just be able to pull it off. (if the low level signal is not swamped by interference picked up along the way).
As another aside, I did run the XLZ (LO) with 47k loading - and results were fine, at 1k or up load (including 47k) frequency response is about the same - but overshoot/ringing seen on square waves increases marginally. (not hugely by any means... maybe 20%)
bye for now
David |
Dear Stltrains: Yes, as I posted Nagatron was a " low profile " manufacturer but one that certainly knew what they were doing.
Last November, when I bought my sample, was the first time I saw the 9600 in the last 20 years over the net.
Time to time we can find the Nagatron 300/200 series models but this 9600 or its ribbon design almost never. This fact could means that the cartridge owners don't let it go so easy as with other MM/MI cartridges.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hi Dlaloum, ***I think the real clue behind LO vs HO designs is in the marketing info about the LO models***
What was the marketing info you're referring to? Did it have to do with cable length? It seems to me you're drawing conclusions based on preliminary findings which are suspect due to a noisy set-up. I don't know what the inductance is of the 980 HO, but the 250mH you compared it to is extremely low for a HO cart. It was always implied, AFAIK, that someone with an "average" set-up would be better off with with the HO version. Regards, |
Raul no worries at all for a hundred bucks to obtain one of the vintage cartridge classics could be priceless.
One thing is for sure this empire 4000d3 does the job. After an afternoon of spinning vinyl I could not be any more satisfied with this vintage mm jewel. Going from lp to lp and hearing that mm sound again after all those years sure has a smile on my face and my foot taping. |
Lewm,
Sorry for stumbling in but this is a question I'm curious about.
I'm no electrical engineer but I believe this statement is in context of passive voltage to current transformers. The low internal resistance and the capacity to deliver high amount of current in a low resistance circuit gives that the signal after passing a step up transformer has similar power and voltage as a MM cartridge.
The signal strength is good, and even similar to MM but it is less combative against impurity states and rf noise etc.
Maybe sometimes the difference between a step up and active amplification is really about the impedance the cartridge sees. |
Hi Fleib,
the original doco from the XLZ talks about its ability to "handle" long cable runs.
I do need to scan it and send it to the VE library - the copy that's in there now is almost unreadable..
picked these up: Pickering XSV/4000: 900Ω 510mH Stanton CS100: 500Ω 270mH Stanton 880/881: 900Ω 510mH Stanton 980HZS: 800Ω 450mH
The Stanton CS100 looks identical to the XSP/XSV3003... (or at least very very close!)
So the series had/has standard inductance models (510/450m), low inductance models (270mH), and low inductance low output models (1mH).
Lots of scope in there for tuning a product to a market segment!
bye for now
David |
Hi Dlaloum, I don't know what kind of marketing was associated with these carts. That's why I asked. Surely the ability to drive longer cables wasn't the only reason for their existence. BTW, I have the inductance spec for the LZS as < 1mH. LOMCs are measured in micro Henries.
I can't say if lack of inductance is the only reason for the supposed superiority. I think it was commonly thought that if one had high quality hi-gain capability, then superior results could be realized. That's what was indicated to me by someone who has experience with both. Now that you have a 980HZS, you can compare directly to the 7500, which is identical to the 980LZS. The styli are interchangeable, so you can get a pretty good idea. 450mH is not excessive for a HO cart, so it should be interesting. I would caution against jumping to conclusions especially if test conditions are less than ideal.
I haven't spoken to Peter Leiderman yet. That might take awhile. It's interesting that the TOTL MI is $4500 which is quite a jump from the HO versions. I believe his strain guage system starts around $5K including cart and preamp. Regards, |
Sorry - what I meant was I picked up the data/statistics....
The family members that I have "picked up" ie that I own, are the XSP3003 (250mH) and XLZ7500 (1mH)
It would be nice to have a 980H or 880 to be able to compare the High Inductance version to the other two - but so far I am not discerning any difference. (yes I am sharing the D7500 stylus between them, I am also adjusting the loading to provide very closely matched frequency response (+/-0.2db between them) - so doing my best to eliminate variables other than inductance and output level.
This is pretty much the only cartridge family that I know of where this type of comparison is possible, and it allows a determination of whether inductance and level are truly a factor in sound quality - or whether it is in fact other factors that make the difference.
So far I am leaning very heavily towards other factors!
bye for now
David |
Dear Stltrains/Acman3: I forgot, the Nagatron 9600 has very low output for a MM/MI cartridge design, it's even lower by around 1 db to the very low output P100CMK4 ( D laloum this is a candidate cartridge for the lowest inductance. ) so you have to crank-up the volume till you have the right cartridge sound level where the cartridge quality performance shines.
Btw, I was wrong with the capacitance, actually the added capacitance is 200pf.
One thought to the ones that left pass the Nagatron 9600 " crazy " opportunity: big big mistake!.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hello Stltrains, Don't worry about the Nagatron 9600. You will be pleasantly surprised. Sounds pretty good out of the box.
Danny |
Hello Raul, You are right about the volume. You are also correct about the price for the Nagatron 9600 being crazy. I only have about 2-3 hours on it but there may be a new Sheriff in town.
Thanks, Danny |
Hi Raul,
yes perhaps it is a lost opportunity... and I did start out bidding on one... but then I thought about it, and thought about the issue of getting replacement styli...
And I decided against it!
Any day now I will have a TK9 and TK10 to play with.... and another low inductance design.
Hoping to find my Holy grail.... a stylus with mechanical resonance completely outside the audio range.
bye for now
David |
Hi Dlaloum, ***This is pretty much the only cartridge family that I know of where this type of comparison is possible, and it allows a determination of whether inductance and level are truly a factor in sound quality - or whether it is in fact other factors that make the difference.***
This is exactly what I was referring to about jumping to conclusions. Even if you determine that in this case inductance doesn't seem to be a factor, it does not necessarily follow that inductance is never a factor. Indeed, I am convinced that in extreme cases, inductance is very much a factor. I've been wrong before, but in this case I don't think so. It is difficult to compare high inductance carts to low inductance counterparts which don't exist, but lack of objective data doesn't "prove" anything.
It was stated, in the past, that when carts were equalized for identical response, they tended to sound alike. Extended listening would often reveal differences in transient response, dynamics, textural, low level harmonics and detail etc. Perhaps more extensive tests or listening would be more convincing. Regards, |
Raul i received the cartridge and the supplied data sheet and hookup instructions supplied by CJ. The listed output is 2mv. Using my vintage Fisher 400c that may be pushing it. Unfortunately i wont be able to do any setup till late next week. As they say only time will tell if my 400c can handle that low of an output and still play quite. Ive rebuilt all but the phono section and now have the parts for that project new components may help and it sounds great with the Empire so its got to get better.
Danny with the super play and sound of my Empire 4000d3 really looking forward to what 9600 will deliver. I now have compiled a list of wanted MM cartridges and boy i could not be any happier with the superior sound i am hearing. Classic Rock and Roll/Blues was made for MM play back in the day and i can vouch for that big time. Not that the MCs did not do justice but MM seems to sound like i remember how these classics were recorded full lively and very entertaining for the ears. Mike
|
Hi Fleib,
yes I accept the possibility - thorough testing of the theory will take a LOT more listening.... this will happen in due course. I have however made some Square wave recordings and analysed the results showing almost identical responses... each cartridge will vary more widely on its indivual loading than on the difference between the two of them. This is generally considered a good indicative measure of dynamics, transient and phase response.
But there will be much (!) more listening.
and once I work out how to set it up on the web properly, I will post comparative recordings - so people can listen to them on their own systems and make their own minds up. (it may be that my system limitations or my ear limitations make them indistinguishable.... others might find them to be chalk and cheese....- but I don't think so)
I also recently adapted some phase/group delay modelling into my cartridge model spreadsheet, so when selecting a loading configuration for a cartridge I can minimise phase variance...
Interestingly a default "average user" setup for an AT440MLa (422pf, 47k) results in both a noticeable amplitude peak in the lower highs, as well as a substantial phase anomaly in the octave just before that.... (the mechanical resonance will also generate a substantial phase anomaly so the real result will be far worse.... but I cannot measure or model that!) The same cartridge that has an occasional reputation for excess highs, harshness, etc... Set it up at 100pf and 34k and it becomes a wonderfully smooth tool of recording reproduction.
So many people are missing out on the potential of their systems due to default "standard" loading setups with high capacitance cabling exacerbating things.
bye for now
David |
Dear Dlaloum: Well, replacement stylus is something that in my case is almost un-important, let me explain:
like this Nagatron 9600 and several other cartridges the chance to own and hear it are extremely limited and when I know or assume or perceive that a cartridge could be a top or near the top performer what I want is hear it and confirm or not that quality performance level and this only can happen if I buy the cartridge.
Till today I have success on that regard. Now, with so many great cartridges in my " closet " is really imposible that one of those cartridges needs a stylus replacement because wear by playing it.
In the other side and in case I need it: well there are alternatives out side for re-tipping it.
I like to be aware ( and discern. ) of what was made it on MM/MI cartridge designs.
One full lesson that I learned is that no single top of the line MM/MI cartridge ( any manufacturer. ) sounds " so so ", every one performs first rate. So, why left behind a top of the line cartridge opportunity?, this is not on my " book ".
Good luck on your specific cartridge hunting!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, I just experienced a good taste of the Empire 4000 D3 Gold mounted on a Micro Seiki 505s, my brief comment's can be found in your review of the D3. What a pleasant surprise.
I have a question regarding the stylus of the D3 gold. In the specification card Empire note this stylus is a Nude Paralinear design, trade marked.
What category does this stylus fall into? I ask because there is an regulation mechanism incorporated in he MS505 to conform with stylus tip configurations. Thank you. |
Dear In_shore: For that purpose you can take it as " line contact ".
Yes, the Empire 4000D3 as several other top of the line vintage cartridges were a happy and nice surprise for me and other people. Good that you are enjoying it.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Raul: A "thank you" is in order. Your constant assertions of the quality of the AT20SS prompted the purchace of a hand selected, limited edition AT20SLa. It arrived with a generic (red grip Pfansteil) stylus but the cart itself was very clean and in unscathed condition. Following your recommendations, a pair of ATN20SS styli were on order as soon as the cart was purchaced. While awaiting the delivery of the AT styli (from LpGear, NOS, OEM and despite rumors to the contrary, in excellent shape) the generic stylus was used and resulted in a very disappointing experience. Flabby bass and hollow mids, uncontrolled resonances throughout the range of response. That it was mounted on a perferated headshell didn't help either, more (hello, In-shore) about this later.
The 20SS styli arrived two days later. As previously mentioned, both were in pristine condition and one was immediately installed. Ear splitting, piercing upper mids and hf's, bass was excessively recessed. Put on a Laura Brannagan promo lp, a 1987 club influenced digitally mastered Lp so compressed that dynamics were totally absent, and let the AT go at it (no amplification, sensibility sometimes prevails) all day. The AT6006a "safety raiser" tonearm lift earned it's salt that day.
The following day, bass was in evidence but otherwise still bright and with excess treble, the AT20 had another six or so hours of being punished with Laura, a Pavlovian approach to audio. Mid-day Thursday, a Yamamoto HS-3 headshell was delivered. Boxwood and 8.5gm, it and the cart's additional 8gm weight combined to push mass near the recommended range of the EPA-250 arm. The cart was installed on the Yamamoto headshell the following day (after another listen while still on the lightweight headshell) and the improvement was more than just noticable. The edgy/grainy character in the mids was eliminated, bass transients and decay firmed but the effect most heard was the reduction of glare in the hf's and improved clarity of detail across the entire range.
Today, about twenty five hours on the 20SS stylus now, the cartridge is delivering a solid sense of layering. Soundstage is deep but not so wide as to hint at uncontrolled resonances. Voice is appropriate and harmonics are beginning to develop in a most pleasing fashion. Just finished listening to a first release of the Eagles S.T. album, it played clean, clear and most importantly, musically.
I suppose that there are three "Thanks" needed. First to you for your continued support of the AT20. Second, to Halcro/Henry for the initiative to explore and comment on the attributes of the Yamamoto headshells, and a third to Thuchan for his post on headshells which was conclusive in the decision to explore their contribution. There is nothing "B-stock" about the quality of the Yamamoto headshell, this includes the provided leads.
Still not yet fully run in, the AT20SLa/ATN20SS combination has already moved into the top-flight category of the 50+ MM carts in the stable here and the Yamamoto headshell has demonstrated the ability to reduce unwelcome resonance-induced distortion. 1.2gm VTF, 47k res. & 150pF total. Oh, yes!
At this time it's challenging the Acutex LPM 320-111STR and already having the ability to similarly capture detail, if the AT20 should continue to improve to the extent that it eventually gains the air and hf translusence of the Signet TK7LCa, I'll be pleased indeed.
Thanks again and,
Peace, |
Dear Timeltel: IMHO the 20SS could challenging any top MM/MI cartridge out there.
As you experienced the cartridge is not easy to shows at its best, I had same experiences with but when the cartridge " feels in home " it is very good. From all the AT/Signet family cartridges I own and tested this 20SS is ( in my set up ) the best tracker and this helps for it quality performance against other cartridges.
So, for what you posted that LPGear stylus replacement is Original.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Timeltel, The Yamamoto headshells seem to have the particular property of dealing with plastic cartridge bodies and making their plastic resonances seem more benign. I assume it is the plastic-to-ebony/cherry/boxwood (I personally have not tried the boxwood) interface. I have tried the ebony headshell with a wooden-bodied cart and I did not get the same incremental benefit. On the other hand, the wooden cart mounted on the SAEC ceramic headshell, or the Victor silicon carbide headshell was great (if heavy). |
Dear T_bone: The 20SS does not has a plastic body but a metal one. Resonances ( kind and level) between cartridge and headshells are really hard to predict because the different cartridge/headshell resonances tame not only the cartridge " behavior " but the tonearm " behavior " about. To complex and almost unpredictable.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Raul/T_bone: Relating to the LpGear stylus: The grip has the embossed AT logo, it is very rigid and has the texture one sees in a carbon impregnated material. On the clear flip-up guard AT20SS is stenciled in white and the cantilever is of the dimension expected of beryllium. Under 20x magnification it shows a nude stylus, uncolored and most importantly it performs exactly as one would anticipate. BTW, as to a comment made earlier, neither of my examples show rust on the magnets.
At their current price, if there was reason to think them anything but OEM styli they'd have already been sent back and as one might imagine these were closely inspected (20x) on recieving them. I can't say this would be true for all, it's not unimaginable that an occasional impostor might slip through unnoticed by any vendor. The quality of the cartridge is unquestionable (IMHO) and at around thirty five hours now it just keeps getting better. A friend listening to it last night commented: "When you turn it up, it doesn't get louder, you just get more music".
T_bone (Hi!): At this time my only consideration as to maximizing performance, coincidental to your post, relates to Raul's comments in his original post that the AT20 performed best on a ceramic headshell, then in his review of the cartridge, on the prototype tonearm.
I've tried the AT20 (all metal body) on both a low-mass perforated headshell and today on an ADC magnesium 7.1gm shell (metal to metal applications). The Yamamoto HS-3/boxwood is preferable to either of the previous (metal/wood). How this will relate to damping as compared to transmission of vibrational/mechanical resonance through the TA remains to be seen as the cartridge continues to settle in. As VTA is still wandering slightly, I'm sure it hasn't done so yet. Otherwise, it is as responsive to "tweeking" as any cartridge I'm familar with. It is currently very well established in terms of crispness, neutrality, dynamics and solid imagery. Still, I'm anticipating a little more in the portrail of space, "holographic" imagery and increased delicacy in the still slightly brash hf's as it continues to settle. There's good indication these factors will develop with time and attention or possibly with an as yet untried headshell. Dealing with resonance is always a major concern. Or, major pain in the a**, depending on the circumstance.
T_bone, your comments are welcome and if I understand you correctly: Wood to wood not so good, wood to ceramic or metal, makes fine musical fettle. Poor rhyme but good for broad consideration? I do understand you're relating specific applications and there will be, as always, room to experiment.
The AT20 has it's sights now set on a labourously tuned TK7CLa (an exquisite performer IMHO, etc.). I'll be exceedingly pleased if the AT eventually surpasses it but both are currently so rewarding (the Acutex too) I really don't much care about "best", just that they each do what they do as well as possible. I'm reminded of the comment about the lady who when good, was very good, and when she was bad, she was very, VERY good. With the AT20, it's very good but if set-up is bad, it's just very average cart good.
Peace, |
Timeltel, you should hear AT24. This one is pure music. |
Timeltel, My experience on headshell/cart matching is totally unscientific, but it would, in general terms, be somewhat similar to what you mention. It is almost certainly not a definitive rule, and almost certainly has to do with the weaknesses of implementation/construction rather than the triumph of good physics theory.
Siniy123, Does the AT24 come with a removable stylus? Would you know where to find one if so? |
Dear Timeltel regarding the Yamamoto boxwood headshell,now this could be imagination playing tricks but i felt the finger lift had to be removed. I'm just starting to get use to a few new thing's in my system and so far so good. I also have a AT 20ss waiting however i have not moved away from the Empire 4000d3 as of yet, this combo of Yamamoto boxwood headshell and MS arm currently have my attention.
|
Regards, Siniy 123: Thanks for the suggestion.
Regards, T_bone: Your observations were appreciated as such. Do you detect any audible differences in the ebony and cherry headshells?
Regards, In_shore: "i felt the finger lift had to be removed." I'm intrigued. Where did I put that screwdriver---
Peace, all. |
Timeltel, Generally prefer ebony, but I could easily imagine with lighter or higher compliance carts I could prefer the cherry. |
Just had my first listen of the TK9e
This is lovely - smooth, sweet, and so far, most probably the most realistic portrayal of acoustic instruments I have heard out of the JVC TT.
I measured compliance at 31cu - and it is currently sitting in a Lustre mg headshell - which adds up to effective mass way too high - but the arm is damped - so the resonance is under control. (undamped it was at 5.9Hz) - This cartridge would probably like a much lighter headshell....
What type of headshell would people suggest as being optimal for the TK9E / ATN25 ?
thanks & bye for now
David |
T_bone, yes AT24 has removable stylus (screw in metal holder block) a-la Signet TK9 and TK10 series. Styli appears to be ready available from usual German source, but bodies are not coming to market very often. For example on hifido I can see that it appeared for sale only 2-3 times in last 12 years. I snapped the body off that auction site - I only saw it once in last 4 years. Hope you will be more lucky. |
headshell TK9E / ATN25 ?,
AT25 comes built in in the magnesium headshell. So, I guess you question is about AT24.
I suggest to start with headshell, which you know works best most of the times with you particular tonearm. I my example, it works excellent in Jelco magnesium headshell on L-07J tonearm. |
Regards, Dlaloum: Have a TK9(LC) cart with a (supposedly) ATN25 stylus. I recently brought the neglected cart out and retried in on an ADC mag. headshell, the 6.5gm version. Much better than when on a standard Technics headshell, seems I need to reevaluate as I was previously not impressed. This will need to wait until the AT20SLa can be fully appreciated.
Siniy123, there's also an AT22 stashed somewhere, thanks for reminding me. Do I remember correctly, the AT24 has a finer stylus/less tip mass than the AT22 & 23?
Peace, |