Regards, Raul: First, a clarification: NEVER heard either the AT95 or the Virt. However. When considering the AT95 relative to the Clearaudio it might be remembered that we all share 98% (sometimes more, it seems) of chromosones with a gorilla. Look it up. ;-). There are Corvettes, then there's the Z-06. Calloway 'Vette, anyone? Roush Mustang? Saleen? 550/Spyder? James Dean, James Dean, BaRoooom!
But then, there's very little of the rational about this hobby. Autos, that is. Everyone knows an audiophiles' involvement is purely intellectual.
Raul, there's a Virt. offered on Canuckaudio, a SSmith ruby cant./LC stylus, said to have had no use since done and priced at little more than the re-tip. There's reason to suspect this one could possibly be an improvment over your present example. Regretably no association, disclaimers apply.
(David, that one is most certainly not your Uncle Bob's AT95.)
Rear-wheel drive and a six speed waiting impatiently in the shed for this 98% gorilla---- if you ever see a big ape on a Schwinn--- :).
Peace, |
Hi Griffithds, I would never sell the Technics. It is my favorite model and a true reference quality cartridge IMO. And since it can be rebuilt and retiped when needed, it wouldn't make sense for me to sell it. I was just joking about selling it, because it is hard for me to believe the CA AT 95 is better. |
Dear Raul, I was mostly kidding. I have many cartridges still to audition for the first time, so I am not a buyer. I was just referring to the fact that this thread (and this group of Audiogon members) must be in large part responsible for the increase in value and rarity of the best vintage MM and MI cartridges. If this ship changes course, it is quite likely to have an economic effect. Travbrow made the same observation in a different way.
Anyway, is there a consensus among you and the others who have already heard the Virtuoso as to which version is "the one" to get? What is a Maestro with a non-wooden body? (I think Fleib brought that up.) Is it still called "Maestro"? I have seen no mention of such a product on websites that sell CA cartridges. |
Hi Travbrow,
Yes, I knew you were joking. Many of us have been looking along time for one of these. There are many Kings. You happen to own one of them. Your a lucky man. |
To whom it may concern, The AT-95 and CA MMs are NOT the same. I own both. My modified 95 isn't nearly as good, but a big improvement over a stock 95. Your sarcasm misses the mark. AT might not have the snob appeal of some high end companies, but is a logical choice to produce a superior cartridge. The style of the moving system and generator are the same as a 20SS, 155LC, etc etc etc. Here's what they look like w/o the wood. http://www.clearaudio.de/_en/Tonabnehmer.php
Regards, |
Thanks, Fleib. My brief search among a few US dealers' websites did not show those optional alu types. So did you say you like the alu Maestro best? Can you share any ideas about how it compares to a top line vintage MM or MI, for example the AT20SS? |
Hi timeltel and Halcro,
Am I understanding the both of you correctly? If I put a #3 Signet stylus with a AT15xe, I would then have at TK7SU? I'm asking because I have all the parts, just never thought of reassembling them this way. |
Dear Griffithds: ++++ " BINGO! I found the sweet spot on the Virtuoso. Man, is it up in the back. You would think I was plowing for potatoes. My Vandersteen's have never disappeared before in my room. What a difference. I have to figure out a way to mark this setting or my days of rotating cartridges would be over. This is true heaven. " ++++++
good that was my same experience. Now, don't give up on the subject, mark it as you suggest and try tiny additional VTA/SRA looking if the performance is degraded or you can hear more forceful, sonority or solidity in the sound.
As I posted in the review this was a " hard " worth time and even that I swear taht's was the right VTA/SRA at least two times I re-check and found out " something " even better: less colored ( if you could find any coloration in this CA low low colored cartridge as any I heard before. ) with lower distortions.
Yes, agree with you: this is a true heaven!.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hi Lew, I never heard a Maestro. I'm basing my conjecture on Raul's impressions, which seem reliable. All the CA MMs share the same basic generator. There might be some internal differences with the least expensive ones, but a Maestro is a Virtuoso in a wood overcoat rather than a top hat. It has a micro tip and a boron cantilever. The voicing of a cart is the sum of the contributions of these parts. Perhaps the wood Maestro has a little too much wood. I've only heard my 15/20SS with a SS tip. The beryllium/shibata is controlled, detailed. The shibata is a little sweet on the high end and gives it a seductive sound. I think I'm in agreement that the CA has just a little better motor. It seems slightly more open and real. I have a spare SS stylus. Maybe I'll transplant it when I'm feeling brave. I think the 2 bodies might be pretty close. It seems like specs win out with the CAs. Regards, |
Dear Dlaloum/Timeltel/Fleib: +++++ " This is quite exceptional - I know of not other cartridges that achieve a resistance that remarkably low for a substantial midrange inductance.
Given the wide disparity between original AT specifications and the Clearaudio specifications... in combination with the rumours of their own cartridge making equipment, it is perhaps not so far fetched to assume that there is some form of arrangement with AT, which includes AT supplying bodies, and some of the parts, but that CA perhaps manufacture their own coils? " ++++++
well, IMHO CA has the skills and tools for design and build MC cartridges and the skills to design MM ones but maybe not the tools to do it. Let me explain a little:
as I posted time ago we are on the design and get our own cartridge but due that we have not the skill/tools to make it in " house " I contacted with three-four cartridge manufacturer ( OEM. ) options out there. The very first was VdH due that I have very good relationship with Dr. VdH and his answer was that even that he marketed MM cartridges he does not has the " tools " ( whole infraestructure. ) for build our MM/MI cartridge but he can help me if I decide for MC one. I can't say if this could make sense to J.Carr ( for example. ) or to any other cartridge expert but that was the answer.
Now, we can't know for sure ( only CA and AT. ) what happened and is happening on the subject. We only can speculate that I don't really like it but this time I could get the " risk ".
It is clear to me that the cartridge body ( wood top plate ) was and is a CA idea and that I think they make it in house, I think too that ( Lewm, you could be right: the Suchy's don't take their value time where the money is not but where the money is: LOMC products. ) the cartridge tunning was made for CA people and could be too that AT build the motor/generator and CA not only fine tunned but assembly on its own facilities. Even could be that today CA, as Timeltel posted, makes the whole cartridge with a licensed AT agreement.
I think that the main merit on the Virtuoso great quality performance belongs to CA. This guys someway or the other found out how kill ( almost eliminate. ) cartridge own resonances. I posted in the review something similar of what Fleib posted in this thread: cartridge body free of resonances, no stylus guard ( removable one. ), non-user removable stylus assembly, matched cantilever/stylus with those electrical characteristics, etc, etc.
All these made it that the cartridge shows a distortion-free behavior that no other cartridge I know has at this level. Because what we are hearing in the Virtuoso Black wood IMHO is not what is done/doing but mainly what it does not done/doing that all the other cartridges ( till today ) are doing.
What we are hearing through other cartridges ( any ) are distortions/colorations ( different levels. ) that the Virtuoso does not shares or that I can't detect it.
Btw, Fleib I don't think that the stylus/cantilever on my sample goes on the " exotic " side ( boron, line contact, ruby and the like. ), the cartridge is that good by design/build execution. J. Carr posted: if you are re-tipping your cartridge and you want to preserve the nearest to its original performance level it is important that the cantilever construction and build material be the same. In my sample the cantilever is similar to the aluminum in the original one.
Other thing that is clear to me because all what we posted here and in the review is that that AT-95 ( that I own and that I heard it a few moment ago is a TOTALLY different performer and for the people that could think that can change/convert the 95 in a Virtuoso are in mistake: NO WAY. Fleib was ( twice ) very clear on this " misunderstood " subject.
IMHO and with out heared/tested in deep other today cartridges my take is that the cartridge history could be write: before and after the Virtuoso Black Wood!.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
It is good to know that a cartridge that some may think is the "king of kings" is easily available. The Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood is $950.00 from Audio Advisor. I wonder if it is available cheaper from another source? I thought of trying the Maestro a while back but I guess the Virtuoso is better even though it is cheaper? |
Hello Timeltel/Halcro, Do you think Soundsmith could put one of his Line contact styli in the funky Signet/AT stylus holders? Which one would you recommend to replicate the TK7LCA if possible. Just thinking out loud. |
Hi Raul, more time spent with the Supex 100MKIII and I like it very much. Mine has a Red stylus with SMM/100E marked on the front.
The Nagatron highs did not improve with more hours so you are right that the Nagatron with the cheap stylus has too much distortions. The highs are just not refined and detailed, but the cartridge can be pleasent/fun to listen to. I may send my spare Nagatron for stylus/cantilever upgrade some time. |
If not already snapped up by one of us, there are two Virtuoso's for sale only a few clicks away on this website for $650; one of them seems to be NOS. But photos show that neither is sporting a "black" wood top, the wood is reddish brown. What's up with black wood? I don't mean to be flippant; if the wood is playing an important role in resonance control or damping, then the type of wood might be very important, and the difference in color might suggest that two different woods were used. Of course, the interaction of whatever headshell Raul is using against the wood contact area might be as important as anything else to his good results. |
I have been searching the web for DC resistance values for the AT95...
As measured by Fleib the DC resistance is 408ohm - so the difference between resistance and impedance is less extreme than I expected.
It would be interesting to find out whether the CA's in fact are AT95 bodies with mods.... (not that there is anything negative about that!)
With regards to retipping services (such as SoundSmith) - if the bodies are the same, one can purchase a CA Aurum Classic - Satine wood - for $300 at retail... fitting a ruby cantilever with TOTL needle is $400 - is the result therefore superior to the Maestro?
I am not being flippant, if the bodies are in fact the same ... then this approach could be used to upgrade a basic model.
Also worth asking - what are the differences between the different woods, and the aluminium bodies?
Are these differences "absolute" or "relative" - what I mean by that is, will one body work better with a particular headshell/arm and a different one with a differing headshell/arm? And therefore it is not a question of which is "king" put how to work out which is king for your specific combination!
Also if the AT95 body is confirmed as the same specification as the CA bodies - then it opens up the possibilities of wide ranging mod's and great flexibility....
The possibilities of an AT20ss stylus in an AT95 body... (as per http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88878.20 )
And if the differences are really generated by the body damping variance (rather than the generator itself) - how much more potential is there in some of our existing favourites?
The AT95 was sold alongside the AT24/25 & TK9/10.... what potential is there is a hot-rodded TK10 as opposed to a Hot Rodded AT95?
I was in touch a while back with someone who had had a SS Ruby cantilever fitted to his V15V - he was not totally satisfied with the result... But there is a wide variety of excellent generators/bodies out there- and once we have a favourite, one that best combines with our arm/headshell/table - would we be better off organising a custom stylus/cantilever for it, rather than experimenting all over again with a new body...?
Possibly the CA range (if shown to be the AT95...) is the ultimate demonstration of what I have been saying in the past: 1) The stylus defines the sound, and especially the cantilever 2) the generator is of lesser importance 3) Vibration control is critica... headshell, arm, modifications to the body for vibration control...
I do not own an AT95 - anyone care to measure a few and post their data?
thanks
bye for now
David |
Regards, Griff: #3 stylus grip won't physically fit the 15xe cart, closest compatible replacement would be an ATN20SLa. One can transplant the #3 stylus to the xe's grip but no coffee less than two hours before the operation. The AT15xe is a good listen with it's proprietary needle but to answer your question: Theoretically(!) the AT15 generator with the #3 stylus is performance-wise a TK7SU.
Acman3: The SSmith ruby cantilever/line contact stylus on the TK7?a might be a stunning combo. Do it Danny ;] and let us know. His line contact or a svelt Shibata with it's even sweeter hf's? Jico undoubtably has something but IIRC the boron cantilever is available only with the SAS.
The ATN155LC is good-to-go with this Signet. If you're not immediately drawn to the cart, after a side or two you should find yourself appreciative of the performance. Suggest arm level, maybe a hint of tail up on VTA. 1.15-1.2gm VTF, 47k-150pF total. IMHO, old rig & etc.
Peace, |
Another alternative for the Signet is the ATN152LP... that is the p-mount version of the AT155LC (AT152LP) stylus - identical in every way to the ATN155LC with the following exceptions: 1)no stylus guard, 2) slightly lighter plastic surround, 3) Slightly lower compliance - overall for a TK7 replacement stylus this might be superior to the ATN155LC - the lower compliance will work better with a heavier arm (which most people are using)... and the loss of the stylus guard removes a source of vibration, finally the reduced mass again is usually an advantage for a high compliance design like this one!
Going back to my request for data on the AT95.... I just woke up to the fact that the AT92 family (and all the various different names and numbers they go by) are the exact same engine... in a p-mount, and with a slightly different stylus surround, but the exact same plug.
So here is the data from a series of these that I have personally measured and own...
Cart. R ohm Z mH Z Bal R Bal AT3472 403 435 0.0% 2.2% MG-44J 424 442 0.9% 0.5% AT3482P 403 428 2.3% 1.0% DR250 395 457 2.8% 1.5% DR200E 409 421 3.3% 0.2% AT101P 409 428 3.4% 0.7% Black? 411 465 5.4% 3.4% PC-35 412 465 5.4% 1.0%
I have also included the variation between the Left/Right Channels in % terms for both R & Z.
I have no means for measurement of Impedance @ 1kHz
But this appears to confirm that the AT92/3600/95 family are the underlying generator in the CA MM family.
I have a plethora of these cartridges - and no decent styli for them !
Perhaps it is time for me to investigate their potential....
bye for now
David |
Changes I did so far to the Supex 100MKIII set up that helped. Positive VTA vs level that I started with, tracking at 1.35g for now, replaced cheap poor quality headshell wires with better quality ones and removed stylus guard. It has plenty of "WOW" factor now, a tight powerful controlled bass response, the highs are clean and detailed, the bright midrange I heard at first is tamed a lot and has nice definition and tone quality.
Raul you mentioned when playing the Nagatron at high volume levels distortions are easily heard, and I experienced it too. At lower volume levels the distortions are not as easily heard. The Supex sounds great at high volume levels. Just shows that first impressions are not always impressive, but a little patience with set up can show the potential of a cartridge and some models are more "picky" and take more tweaking to show that potential. |
Raul, Just out of curiosity regarding these Clearaudio wood body cartridges. Clearaudio makes reference to satine wood which to my knowledge is a tropical wood species known as bloodwood to me. Satine wood varies in colour from orange, as seen with the Virtuos recently up for sale from the Netherlands,to shades of deep red. A very dense and hard to work with, I have some heart wood samples.
Your black bodied Virtious looks to be African black ebony which I have samples of too, however just viewing a picture it could be something else that is stained.
It would be interesting to compare the two wood bodies direct. Perhaps someone here could donate their bloodwood sample to Raul just for comparisons.
Lately I've been experimenting with arm boards and have on hand a wide range of material.
I have abandoned metals for wood species and wood products such as B-25 panzerholz.
Twelve select species and counting laminated to panzerholz is revealing some great results, one that currently stands out is some very old rosewood laminated to panzerholz. |
Hi Timeltel,
Thank you for answering my question. If it had been just a plug in operation, I would give it a try. I would have no problem attempting the surgery on the stylus housing, but that stylus would then only have limited use to me. You and a few others seem to have so much knowledge about things related to analog, asking this helps to improve mine. If the 20SLa will work, then would the ultimate replacement be to 20ss? Concidering the cost of the styluses at this lever (including the 155LC), are all within a few dollars of each other. |
David, I get 401 and 409 as the resistance of the 95. They list the impedance as 2.8K. I don't get it. Maybe there's something wrong with my Chinese meter, LOL. As I said previously, you can get a very nice performance out of a modded 95. Take off the top piece, fill the spaces with mortite and seal it with epoxy. Because it's not an up-line cart and doesn't even have the OCC wire and whatever else they do internally for TOTL carts, I don't think it will compete with a CA or 20SS etc. BTW, the bodies are not the same, just the plug that holds the cantilever. I think I mentioned earlier 3.2K as the impedance. I got it mixed up with the 440/120. If you're looking for a budget model that might have greater potential, look into the 110E. It has the OCC wire but I don't know the specs. The inductance of the 95 is 400pF.
Can you explain the discrepancy between the resistance and impedance? Regards, |
Regards, Griffithds: Thanks for the kind words. The transplant operation is not for the faint of heart and also your reluctance to significantly modify the scarce TK7SU Signet grip is understandable.
For a simpler and cost effective means of accomplishing the same, an Akai RS-180 (Replacement Stylus-180) can be modified with a very easily done (hobby knife) clip of approx. 2.5-3mm of plastic at the rear, the sides only. The high quality high compliance (28x10-6cm dyne) RS-180 stylus is available for a relatively reasonable price and is a substantial upgrade from the elliptical ATN15XE. Search Conus Audio and click on "Accessories". The RS-180 is a rebadge of AT's square shank Shibata, nude mount on their TOTL alloy thin wall tapered cantilever and is just slightly less articulate than the beryllium cantilevered ATN20SS. Effectively an ATN15SA, no jagged edges to catch one's ear.
The Shibata's extended hf's, harmonious mids and solid, well defined bass match up well enough to have dedicated an EPA-500H arm to the AT15/RS-180 combo. Small modification aside, this is a technically correct replacement stylus and the suggestion is made with confidence. The RS-180 stylus assembly is also an excellent (!) donor candidate for the TK7SU.
The ATN155LC will not fit the AT15/20 body.
Peace, |
Thank you Timeltel,
I ordered one of the Akai's. For $100, it will make a great doner. I'll let you know who it turns out. Thanks again,
Don Griffith |
Dear Travbrow: That were my experiences with the Nagatron and the ones from you I had with the Supex that's as I posted is way better tracker than the Nagatron with that cheap stylus.
Good that you are enjoying the Supex, very good indeed.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Griffithds: If you're thinking of transplanting the stylus be sure to take a look at the link Dlaloum posted yesterday. This is an effective visual aid. It is imperative that as much of the thread sealing paint, lacquer, whatever, is removed first. Gently scrape out as much as possible and clear the slot of the screw head as best you can. Ensure that the screwdriver fits the head of the screw precisely and exert no more than a modest force when loosening the compliance screw or you'll strip the slot. Should this occur, then you have a fine stylus for an AT15/20Sa-SLa, this requiring a minimum of modification as described earlier.
Dlaloum and Flieb are also familiar with the transplant proceedure and they both give good information. Like a teen's first romantic encounter, once done it seems fairly straightforward. I practiced first on a ruined model (stylus, a ruined stylus) and found it helpful to visually inspect for azimuth by viewing the assembly from the rear, sighting the level of the magnets relative to the horizontal plane of the stylus grip. Compliance is somewhat determined by the pressure of the round pivot block against the plastic grip so you'll need to apply force with a fingertip as the compliance screw is tightend. Too little and the pivot block will be inadequately supported and the magnets will ground against the pole peices when VTF is applied. It won't damage anything but you'll definitely hear it & don't be surprised if it takes more than one effort to get it right.
Peace, |
For the transplant procedure Fleib is the man.... I ruined a possibly ok AT20sla needle trying it....
So right now I am in shell shocked state.... I will come back to this experiment later... (when I've recovered from snapping a good cantilever)
Fleib the thing to look out for is that strictly speaking resistance is a DC measurement and Impedance is an AC measurement and varies with frequency... To properly measure impedance requires an LCR bridge and a variable frequency signal generator....
kconnor on Audiokarma did that for several Shure carts:
_________ M97-HE________V15RS____VI5xMR 50 Hz____ 824.6 ________479.5_____475.6 500 Hz____800.1 ________459.0_____454.7 1.0 kHz___773.2 ________429.9_____427.8 2.5 kHz___718.8 ________385.4_____385.3 5.0 kHz___663.2 ________350.3_____349.6 10 kHz___ 609.0 ________307.3_____306.9 15 khz____594.0 ________282.9_____283.4 20 kHz____597.7 ________269.2_____269.5
Which shows how the impedance varies with frequency.
Impedance specs are therefore only valid if quoted along with the relevant frequency at which they are measured.
DC resistance is what is measured by a multimeter... so one does expect a difference between the two.
My AT110 reads 517ohm and 603mH My AT105 reads 516ohm and 575mH
(inductance also tends to vary with frequency... so there are some other gotchas in there....)
bye for now
David |
While my search for the Holy Grail is over my addiction to ebay is still there. My excuse: I am now searching for others. Assuming that the most members never look at the German ebay (www.ebay.de) my find may be of interest to some. Clearaudio Aurum Classic ,Alu or wood for 174 Euro. If needed I will be glad to help.
Regards, |
Dear David, You could say that at any frequency, impedance is the sum of DC resistance plus reactance. "Reactance" is a AC resistance due to inductance or capacitance and is usually a complex function of both. I know you must know this; I just wanted to clarify for others. |
Hi Timeltel, Dlaloum, Fleib - can someone tell me if there is a mechanical difference between the Empire 4000 DIII and the 4000 DIII Gold. They do differ in appearance. Is it just cosmetic ? Much appreciated Chris |
Dear Dlaloum: +++++ " Sounds like your Phono stage implements the so called "neumann turnover" sometimes also called the "enhanced RIAA" EQ.... The JLTI I use does the same - I have implemented a calibration adjustment for when I do measurements, as the additional HF EQ does in fact have an impact on the high end ...." +++++
if normally during recording proccess the LPs came with this " additional turnover " to stop high frequency decay to infinite to 50 khz then common sense tell me that if we want to be truer to the recording then it is better to use it that way ( enhanced RIAA eq. ) but only a few phono stages have this option. Even that you posted " not critical on listening " ( because this happen on high frequencies away from our normal hearing sensitivity. ) my experiences about were that I can't hear differences, we have to remember that harmonics helps to modulate the whole music ears perception and if not for other " thing " we have to remember that link by Pryso that speaks of hearing ability even way over 50 khz " down " to 102.4 khz!
I think is time to test more in deep this recorded option on playback. I will try to find out some time in the future.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Are you planning on opening up the "wideband" debate here Raul....
The topic is both heated, and difficult to pin down... not just from the cartridge end but also from the speaker end... |
Dear Dlaloum: Well I agree that's difficult to pin down but in many ways this is a " land " that exist and is not discussed yet or at least not enough.
We have on hand the Pryso link: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm that speaks of our brain/ears, we have cartrridges with a really wide frequency response starting as low as 6 hz and goes over 100 khz and my speakers as several others goes beyond 50 khz. Now, the topic is a wide one because involves that turnover on the RIAA inverse eq., recording proccess and microphone specs, room treatment, live music frequency response, etc, etc. Maybe too wide and asking for a wide and specific knowledge at each different " level ".
We could try to analize. Then if it is ok, waiting for your " approach " on the subject: choose where to start with.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Well in that case let me open with a fundamental question which has not been answered by any of the tests that have shown a difference in the presence of frequencies above 20kHz.
Are we sensing the ultrasonics (by whatever means) or are we sensing the intermodulation of those ultrasonics, which intermodulation is within the normal hearing range?
If the first - we can sense UHF - then we should all be trying to get wideband speakers, amps, cartridges & recordings.
If the secoond - we cannot sense UHF but we can sense its intermodulations, then the original IM is already on the recording within the 20-20k range, and frequencies above that will re-IM causing an additional level of distortion - and it is therefore undesirable.
None of the experiments I have read information on, have eliminated this possibility. It may in fact be extremely difficult to eliminate IM in this way as it may be happening anywhere along the chain from cartridge/cantilever right through to speaker/room.
But the current concensus is that we cannot hear/sense above 20kHz - and this has been established using various quite reasonable and repeatable tests... From the two options above, occams razor would tend to point us to the simpler solution - we sense the IM, rather than the more complex one, we sense UHF.
Also from a posting I made earlier on Audiocircle
I don't know if you people have read this:
Summary - double blind testing shows no difference between 16/44 and higher res formats....
the AES Link:
https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?ID=2
And further details of the test: http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm
Further - this follows on some tests that were done much much earlier in which the AES set up a set of wideband speakers (going up to and beyond 80kHz!) and went to a lot of bother to make sure they had the linear amplitude as well as phase required to make the test valid (something the above test did not do!).
Then they made recordings of live occurences in the street - trees in the breeze etc... and had people listen to them with various Lo-Pass filters in or out - testing for the point at which people no longer heard the difference.... Double Blind fashion - results were statistically analysed.
Interestingly in this analysis at least one person could detect the presence or absence of the 80kHz filter - and as the frequencies came down from there many could hear the lower filters.
There was however no analysis to the best of my knowledge of whether they were hearing the high frequency or its intermodulations which are within the 20-20kHz range.... (both of which would have resulted in the exact same results in the tests...)
So : 1) The first test is showing that for the majority of people 16/44 is indistinguishable from HiRez Audio. (mind you the women in the test had a better differentiation rate at 35% than the men at 50%.... the women had a statistically significant ability to tell the difference - the men didn't) 2) The 2nd test implies the ability to hear well beyond 20kHz - and therefore a requirement for HiRez audio.... but it doesn't differentiate between IMD and the recording.... (very tricky that!) - however it does make the point that many/most people (even audio pro's) cannot hear beyond 20kHz....
Interesting isn't it?!?
Getting back to vinyl, although it has theoretically wideband performance, you can mathematically calculate the distortion generated by tracking error, as well as the needle width.... to achieve acceptable performance (in distortion terms) at 15kHz requires a Micro Ridge type stylus (side/minor radius of less than 0.35um). To do the same at 20kHz requires ?? - not sure ... But I don't think any needle can provide an accurate distortion free picture of what is happening beyond 20kHz. (yes I know about CD4 but that was FM encoded and therefore not as subject to normal distortion.... but more subject to phase)
Further - to protect the cutter heads, the high end was frequently EQ'd downwards.... Shure did some studies analysing the spectral profile of hundreds of recordings.... on average 15kHz is more than 15db down.... and as the frequency rises, the amount of information continues to drop.
So even if you can properly reproduce it.... there is very little there to reproduce by the time you get past 25kHz and further up. (and we have not debated whether what is there is actual sound or distortion/intermodulation)
There you go.... an opening shot in the wideband discussion....
bye for now
David |
Hi David, ***Then they made recordings of live occurences in the street - trees in the breeze etc... and had people listen to them with various Lo-Pass filters in or out - testing for the point at which people no longer heard the difference.... Double Blind fashion - results were statistically analysed.
Interestingly in this analysis at least one person could detect the presence or absence of the 80kHz filter - and as the frequencies came down from there many could hear the lower filters.
There was however no analysis to the best of my knowledge of whether they were hearing the high frequency or its intermodulations which are within the 20-20kHz range.... (both of which would have resulted in the exact same results in the tests...)***
I think one of the problems with listening tests is that you often wind up with the lowest common denominator. If one person could consistently hear a 80K filter, that speaks volumes. That's quite a few octaves from the range of human hearing. If a cart has a rising high end from 15K on up, it seems like people can hear it. That's above the range of hearing for most adults. Regards, |
Hi Fleib
Yes indeed - many have noted that Cartridges with drop off after 15kHz sound a bit dull, or cartridges with a rise above 15kHz have more "air"....
So we are sensing a difference - my point is that the question has not been asked as to whether that difference is a distortion or a reproduction of the original sonic event as mastered.
ie: are we detecting the intermodulation distortion of those high frequencies (the distortion products themselves being within the standard hearing range)... or are we actually hearing the high frequencies themselves?
The question is just as relevant for 15kHz to 20kHz as for wideband ultra high frequencies beyond 20kHz, in fact much more relevant, as most speakers and electronics WILL reproduce these frequencies... and recordings definitely include them.
If we are hearing the IM products - we are hearing a form of colouration of the sound - whether pleasant or not, it is a form of distortion.
Cartridegs like the Shure M97xE produce excellent sound up to around 15kHz - and if adjusted for optimum frequency response flatness up to 15kHz, end up with a very steep droppoff after 15kHz - which would result in less stuff above 15kHz to intermodulate with. (and yes I am ignoring phase...)
An argument can be put that for purposes of reproduction, the less extraneous frequencies you reproduce, the purer (more IM distortion free) the remaining frequencies will be. And therefore an argument could be put that highest fidelity would be achieved with as restricted a frequency bandwidth as possible while meeting the needs of human hearing.
Translated in design terms as, make sure each piece of kit is wideband capable to maximise linearity in the desired frequencies... but try to ensure that frequencies outside the desired band are not fed into that wideband system... is 16/44 digital doing us a favour by limiting the frequencies?
bye for now
David |
Allen Wright claimed in his "Tube Preamp Cookbook" that he or his listeners could hear a difference when his RTP3 preamp was configured so as to roll off at 750kHz, vs no roll-off! Go figure.
Raul, I cannot tell from what you wrote; does your own Phonolinepreamp incorporate the Neumann correction or not? A few years ago there was a fairly erudite article in Stereophile, complete with data, which suggested that the Neumann correction should not be done. I cannot recall the argument made against it. |
Raul's Essential has a switch inside that that can turn the Neumann correction on or off. |
Lew, From my (admittedly received, rather than self-taught) understanding, at that frequency, it could very well be that the difference between the cuttoff and lack thereof was a result of MM cart reactance causing an electrical distortion peak which the amplifier could not handle well, thereby causing issues back at the phono stage (or otherwise impacting its own output). |
very often I put the Neumann correction on. But I have not switch I do select between 7 hf curves.
best & fun only |
Dear Dlaloum: Reading through the links you posted the information is " severe " questionable in many ways other than what D. Rife made it. This kind of tests could be almost always " controversial " and almost always not " conclusive ". Anyway, gives us an idea about and like Freib posted: that persons that detected 80khz say something.
Now, IMD exist inside the 20 to 20 frequency range and on the UHF, it is an intrinsec " ingredient " in the music reproduction. That exist does not help for " our " purpose but as you point out it is not an easy task to know for sure how many of what we are " hearing " over 15 khz is IMD and how many is real frequency signal in the recording, too many factors/parameters to measure before we can even determine the strategy/model to find out that.
I have on hand 4-5 cartridge manufacturers specs on the cartridge IM measures ( inside the 20 to 20 frequency range not beyond it. ) and the values are between: 0.3% to 0.5% that seems to me a " good " low number that I think is not easy to detect and more than this not easy to know first how to know what is and how it sounds IMD.
I have no doubt that we can hear/feel ( through our body . ) on the UHF range ( say to 50 khz. ) but the point on the recording/playback proccess there are so many factors that could impede that we can detect ( and we need to have/pass a deep training to do it. ) UHF recorded if these high frequencies did not came at the " right " SPL where our " body " could detect it.
In the other side I think there is no information out there that could tell us how that 0.3% IMD ( inside 20 to 20 frequency range. ) changed beyond 20 khz: how much increment or not.
I have a lot of questions on the whole subject and no answers but only speculations that does not help.
My system goes beyond 50khz and I can detect when the supertweeters are " on or off " what I can say for sure is if that " I can detect " is 60% sound and 40% IMD or whatever. In any case I prefer my system performance with ST " on ". Yes, I know that that more " airy/open " sound could be charged of IMD but I can't tell exactly.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lewm: As Mab33 posted ( thank's. ) it is user switchable and yes I readed too that ST article about and yes there could be " problems " if the designer does not knows how implement it with out side effects, not an easy task but we did it.
You could take note of those Neumann " problems " when you hear the Dartzeel Phonolinepreamp that came with this Neumann characteristic that's not switchable in the Dartzeel.
In the other side, don't you think that if the LPs were recorded with that Neumann correction ( or something similar. ) the best way to reproduce those LPs is through a Phonolinepreamp with a GOOD implemented Neumann correction?
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, I have no opinion on this Neumann issue, only curiosity. Many years ago, Ralph Karsten told me where to install a resistor in the RIAA section of my MP1 preamp so as to introduce the Neumann correction. I purchased a nude Vishay for the purpose, installed it where Ralph suggested, and never again thought about it. It's just one more thing that is worth re-examining.
By the way, what is the difference between "proper" and improper employment of the Neumann correction? I have never heard the DarTzeel, but what do you not like about it's Neumann correction circuit? I could install a switch to bypass that resistor and find out for myself. |
Dear Lewm: The Neumann correction is a lot more complex than only " solder a resistor ", I can't disclose our Essential circuit design on this subject but I think we did it " proper ".
About Dartzeel I think you have to hear it but if not suffice is to say that it has +1.8 db at 20 khz deviation using the Neumann correction.
Of course you already has that resistor then use it, hear and decide.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear In_shore: In the Clearaudio site there is no wood specification. Through some Virtuoso review I read that the orange/red is made from Fernambuk that's a German tree but I can't confirm it. Yes, the black one seems as ebony with a Clearaudio " treatment " but again : who really knows.
Btw, that you abandoned metal for wood on arm board could say a lot against metal material on arm boards. I have a mix/mixture of experiences with arm board with no clear " winner ". Arm board build material resonances has an influence in what we heard/hear in any audio system but due to the multiple inter-relationship between so many different factros with influence in the quality performance of TT/tonearm/cartidge is not easy to indentify with no place to doubt which arm board material is the best one. We can find out that in an specific set-up this or that material works but in a different environment things could change. Experimenting is the name of the game in this arm board build material subject.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Hi Raul,
"Arm board build material resonances has an influence in what we heard/hear in any audio system but due to the multiple inter-relationship between so many different factros with influence in the quality performance of TT/tonearm/cartidge is not easy to indentify with no place to doubt which arm board material is the best one."
Would that not mean that we are trying to use other materials/components to "equalize" the sound of the critical part of the chain: the 'cartridge'? |
Hi Folks
With regards to damping, vibrations and materials,"Cat's Squirrel"'s website http://qualia.webs.com/ has a lot of good information.
He has put a lot of effort into measuring the inherent damping properties of different materials with accelerometers, and also worked on modelling different combinations of materials.
The focus of his efforts was material selection for plinths, but would be just as applicable for armboards.
My favourite material is a resin/kitty litter hybrid, which is apparently incredibly effective - and of course like most resins it is moldable...
Some of the combinations are not obvious at all, yet very effective - If I recall correctly plywood with thin Aluminium facings is a very good three layer damping material... and quite thin at the same time.
In any case, a worthwhile resource
bye for now
David |
Just a quick tip for anyone using the Moerch DP6. The best protractor is the cheap and cheerful Geodisc. You can then fine check with the DB Protractor - assuming a square sided cartridge (for the latter). This really brings the best out of the tonearm, and surpasses other more renowned and/or expensive protractors such as the DB, Feikert etc on this particular application, IME.
Highly recommended. |
Hi Raul, That's interesting about the wood. The fernambuco tree, native to Brazil, yields Pernambuco wood used in violin bows. Of course ebony is used in fingerboards. However, I believe that a few yrs ago CA said they used satine wood. Satin wood is a hardwood native to S India and Sri Lanka. Whichever it is, it might not differ much in the damping properties or transmission of vibrations, from ebony. Regards, |
Dlaloum, Interesting website. Thanks.
Raul, Fernambuk is probably Pernambuco, also known as 'brazilwood' (which, perhaps unsurprisingly, comes from Brazil). Any wood with that combination of grain structure and color almost has to come from a warmer area. |
Dear Dgob: I'm not sure if we are trying in specific to equalize the sound of the signal cartridge, seems to me that we are trying ( at least me. ) to " surround " the cartridge and the cartridge signal with the most " neutral/accurate " environment for we listen the cartridge signal with the lower added " distortions/colorations " and with minimum loosign information on the original cartridge signal.
Build materials on TT and tonearm are critical to achieve those targets or to be nearest to. Of course that there are other factors with influence about but the build materials subject is IMHO a main factor.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |